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Early Level Progression
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
Hi guys,
Being a newb to these worlds I make my apologies in advance....
The early levels seem a bit daunting at first to me. I cant seem to kill anything on my own without a lucky shot from a bow, requiring the need for 'community quests'.
Whilst I favor this influence, it does make it impossible for me to hop online on my own and explore at the moment.
Is there a call for some starter quests or a training pack to improve your xp?
Thanks!!
Al |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
| [i:e7e727caf4][color=olive:e7e727caf4]Hmm... you [b:e7e727caf4]do[/b:e7e727caf4] know that there's many avenues to growth than combat or questing right? For more concrete pointers... what class(es) are you?[/color:e7e727caf4][/i:e7e727caf4] |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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I agree
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
In attempting to start a new character on Vives, I have found much the same thing. Even having gone through these formative stages, doing it again is almost impossible.
I believe the main reason for this is because characters of middling range have the focus and the needs of new characters have been forgotten.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when finally getting into Vives your immediate choices in adventuring are rats, and kobolds. Rats, singularly are no real threat but, even for fighting based PC's (I was restarting as a paladin) the XP reward started at 7XP and crept down one at a time to 3XP and was threatening to fall lower.
Another choice are the kobolds. Correction, flaming-arrow wielding Kobolds. The word ridiculous comes to mind. As a paladin with 11HP I didn't stand a chance, and I cannot imagine how a new mage would fare when a single arrow would kill them outright.
Just keep in mind the meagre funds and equipment that NWN gives to you by default when you start a new character.
In suggestion, I believe there are a couple of things that can alleviate this:
1) Make non-combat quests, and make them -obvious- to new players. I cannot stress obvious enough. You can't expect people to know where a little girl who lost her teddy is when your confronted with a new and rather large city.
2) Create a "buffer" of areas around cities that only contain weak enemies. I haven't seen if it has changed yet, but a mountain full of trolls next to the Midor Outskirts (and associated farmlands, animals, and newbies) is just too close let alone illogical.
3) Perhaps make a "Entering Vives" run that players go through prior to entering the actual world. The run could involve small quests based on knowledge of Vives (such as history, rules) and XP rewards could be given. This would also mean that not every new character that arrives keeps staring around like a stunned mullet wondering where they are. A confident player will integrate much quicker into the environment. |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
The best route for newbies to "level" is to explore and try your best not to fight. Most areas now give xp for exploring (all will soon to make it easier). There is another newbie friendly Quest involving bats in Midor (not saying where though).
This is however being looked into further and there will be more non-fighting newb quests on offer soon. We do want it reasonably easy to level to 3 or so initally, and jhopefully this will become the case as I play in the toolset re-oredering all the areas.
However for now, it's best just to explore if by yourself.
Cheers
Arathon |
Vives Screenshots!
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
Al, I couldn't agree more, am I am an advocate for the person who wants to get on here and there. One thing to remember though, is that it is pre-beta :), and more areas are being put in for that smooth transition between rats and kobolds :P...not everything is in that can grant you XP, PLUS we aren't fully staffed on DM's as of yet...a large portion of your better quests for items/XP are DM-driven, so please have patience...I know I DM from 9 PM Central for about 2 or 3 hours, depending. Either way hang in there, and most of all, have fun :D
~Fenarisk |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
Just this once, I'll chip in.
Imagine yourself as a paladin, or fighter, or wizard. Imagine yourself in a new city you've never visited.
What would be the first thing you do? Walk around and get your bearings, or hop into the nearest sewer and look for things to kill?
If you picked the latter, turn to page 137, where the make-your-own-adventure book will promptly tell you that you're dead, cause of death: Stupidity :p
Granted, your instincts as a player are to go kill monsters to level up. But detach yourself from that for a moment and think in-depth, and you'll realize that actually fighting as soon as you get to a new city is something even the dumbest half-orc fighter would likely not do.
Sorry if I seem a little condescending, but that's a sore point with me. |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
Yes adventuring is fun, although you do need some XP in order to stay alive in your adventures.
After all, the lands are full of beasties to make the adventuring fun. It is not always possible to venture far from the city walls without running into such beasties.
I'm not suggesting turning this into a hack and slash module, just an early boost of the XP to survive 1 or 2 hits should you encounter said beasties. There are areas that have monsters as soon as you enter the land, making it impossible to make a sharp exit... How many lands would you have to discover, monster free, in order to attain level 3?
That being said, I have throughly enjoyed my adventures in a party environment - keep up the excellent work!
Al |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
The first thing you'd want to do is integrate with society and build some sort of plausible background for your character.
You cannot do this from simply going out the gates and running through each area gathering an average of 50XP per area (which seems to be size dependant). And as was stated, you can't do this because monsters out there hack you to bits in 3 hits tops :P
I don't think encouraging weak characters to go charging around the countryside is logical at all. And I don't think its RP unless you play a class that is more wilderness focussed. Why would aristocratic or urban RPers even ponder the thought of going outside city gates?
The first instinct isnt to go kill things to get XP, the first instinct is to set yourself apart and consolodate your presence, and with D&D this is done with a few levels under your belt, which needs XP. Im happy for it to come in any way, just as long as its there. And it would also help if combat wasn't playtested by copious amounts of freakish great-axe wielding half-orc barbarians so as to make it harder for normal characters.
Also, whilst having DM's about will help, because their human you cannot rely upon them to consistently influence a game mechanic :P
Good luck. |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
You mentioned, Al, that when you enter an area retreats are often not quick enough before a monster bashes you in the head once.
Glad to see someone finally agree with me :wink: . As of right now, the lands are under a massive overhaul behind the scenes, including many weaker transition areas to A) Add more areas for exploration and RP flavor, and B) Keep you from getting ganked the moment you walk into areas with high level monsters (Ala Blackstone Swamp or Midor Deep Forest)...
~Fenarisk |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
[i:48a0f17dd0][color=olive:48a0f17dd0]Would it be a good idea to have characters start out at level 2 (or even 3)?[/i:48a0f17dd0][/color:48a0f17dd0]
I see a couple of justification for this:
(1) They're, afterall, adventurers-to-be; not just any lad/lasses around the corner;
(2) It differentiates the characters a little bit to prevent them from all looking alike, giving incentives to party early onwards;
(3) It's more comforting going around knowing you're abit stronger than a rat :D
(4) In the larger scheme of things, the 1000 (or 3000) experience points doesn't really matter. In our hopes that most adventurers are around level 9 or so, this accounts for about 5% of the total experience.
(5) Of course, even better would be to have a series of 'quizzes' at the beginning, that rewards some background reading / promotes a healthy mentality... (see Kell's post up there for better explanation)
[i:48a0f17dd0][color=olive:48a0f17dd0]So, what'cha all think?[/i:48a0f17dd0][/color:48a0f17dd0] |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
One thing I noticed, that perhaps is going overlooked, is the combat dummy in the ragpicker's cave. I used that, as I believe it was intended, to reach lvl 2 before I ventured out.
I don't think I saw kobolds till lvl 3, and I was partied. I explored a bunch in the cities, was lucky enough to get in on a cool DM quest my first night, and also hunted some animals.
I'll have to admit that after the quick-paced XP of other servers and solo, I was a bit daunted, but I find I'm enjoying every minute I play, including the life-risking encouters, that have plenty of "Pucker Factor". 8) |
Question Authority! |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
| BTW, the dummy in the rag picker's cave has been fixed to disallow granting XP once you've gotten to 2nd level (or 1000xp). |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
I did use the combat dummy, but I didn't bother standing around till I got to level 2. Experience through exploring made me want to make a character that wants to see everything, and I only partly got that with my Ranger.
Many module miss to customise the standard monsters for there own usage. The kobolds with flaming arrows are a good example. If you bumped up the CR to reflect the challenge and threat they actually posses (down to their equipment) then people will generally avoid them.
CR represents how imposing a creature is, something can have a high CR but not actually be that dangerous, just scary till you know better. Some signs and guides would be nice though, things like "don't go there, it's dangerous". You could provide locals who can talk about areas, possibly in some barked conversations with other NPC's. It also makes me want to make a character who will write a guide to the lands. |
Eh? |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
| I dont think you should start at level 3. I mean why bother? Leveling isnt that hard in vives you just cant do it alone when your weak. What the problem is is that their arnt enough people on the server yet to always have a party member. So the ebst solution is simply more quests/lowb areas, possibly ones that the lowb can do alone. Granted this mod is beta so its not the meat and potatoes but i dont wanna see a server like dysntopia where you start at level 5 without doing a lick of work. This only shortens your charectors adventuring time. |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
ACK...I hate the idea of starting out at any other level than 1. At level 1 people are FAR more powerful than the average farmor or even the minor guard, so that DOES show they are adventurers...and who is to say they adventured yet? If not, they are rather powerful in their area (fighter, mages guild, theives guild, etc...), and now must venture into the world. Getting all those levels means something, as does building up fro weakness...it cheapens the adventure and exploration if you get to start at level 2 or 3 IMO...
~Fenarisk |
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[No Subject]
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
[quote:4d9c4f480c="Zeln"]CR represents how imposing a creature is, something can have a high CR but not actually be that dangerous, just scary till you know better. Some signs and guides would be nice though, things like "don't go there, it's dangerous". You could provide locals who can talk about areas, possibly in some barked conversations with other NPC's. It also makes me want to make a character who will write a guide to the lands.[/quote:4d9c4f480c]
[i:4d9c4f480c][color=olive:4d9c4f480c]I believe there's a character who've started writing a Compendium of Unusual Beast... you might be seeing the book in-game, somewhere [/i:4d9c4f480c][/color:4d9c4f480c] |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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level 3????
Posted: 30 Jun 2003 12:37 AM |
| I agree start in level 3 is not good..... |
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Re: Early Level Progression
Posted: 27 Oct 2003 11:14 PM |
Ok, this a bump for this thread to allow people to give feedback on the XP system. We've been farily stable with it for the last few months. How do y'all feel about it? I know this is an open question, but feedback is important. It's also dangerous to ask such an open ended question, since everyone will probabaly want different things. But since the XP system hasn't been discussed recently, I didn't know if that means everyone's happy with it or otherwise.
-Q |
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Re: Early Level Progression
Posted: 27 Oct 2003 11:31 PM |
Can of worms and a tin-opener eh?
Anyway, I'm actually happy with it.
The one thing I _really_ don't like is that you seem to be punished for teaming. I've teamed a couple of times with people slightly higher level than myself and got 1xp for whatever we kill. I assume that this affects me the next time I come to kill them myself, so therefore I'll never get much xp for them.
If I'm right, It think that this is one aspect that requires tweaking.
Cheers,
Lytton |
ratemypoo.com |
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Re: Early Level Progression
Posted: 28 Oct 2003 03:20 AM |
| Does any body else think that when killing stuff the xp drops to quick? |
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Re: Early Level Progression
Posted: 28 Oct 2003 04:39 AM |
If I were to suggest one change, it would be that for fighter types, it drops SLOWER and it drops TO LESS. Capitals because it's early in the morning (By my standards), and thus I cannot put forward a proper argument.
However: For non "fighter" (Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian) characters, it should stay as it is.
IMHO, of course,
-Barnas |
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Re: Early Level Progression
Posted: 28 Oct 2003 02:40 PM |
Right. Time for a clarification it would seem. What did I say about me posting in the morning?
For fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, and Paladins, the XP should, IMHO, diminish at about 1/5th of the rate it currently does, and "stick" at a level slightly higher than it is now. Perhaps 2 XP minimum? For other classes, it would stay as it is now. That would be how I would deal with XP diminishing "too fast". |
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Re: Early Level Progression
Posted: 28 Oct 2003 03:15 PM |
If you accelerate a character through the first few levels, you rob them of the experience of those levels. I don't mean experience as in point values, I mean the actual empirical happening.
Is it dangerous at level one? Yes. But challenge scales with you, so it's also dangerous at level twenty. People act as though the game doesn't actually begin until you reach a certain number of hitpoints. Even if you have 30 hp, there are still things that can happily kill you in one hit.
To me it's about suspension of disbelief. The onus of belief is on THE PLAYER. In theory, you are now another person, in another land. Bad things happen. Poor choices can be lethal. Roll with it. Every time you breach the veil to see the gearworks, you miss the point a little more.
I walked out of the starting Inn last night and turned left. It seemed as good a direction as any. I heard music coming from off the road. Walking around the bend to investigate, I was struck by an Acid Arrow and died. I'm okay with that. Things happen in the real world and you have no choice be to REACT to them. They are impartial.
So let it be with Caeser. =)
My one request concerning experience would be to include some starting quests with less altruistic motives. If the little girl offers cash up front, maybe we can discuss Teddy's future. |
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Re: Early Level Progression
Posted: 28 Oct 2003 03:28 PM |
| 30 HP? Shall we talk about birds that can with one blow do 125 HP of long-distance damage to a 132 HP character, and then cover the distance to finish her off close-up before she can run more than about three steps? *grin* |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Early Level Progression
Posted: 28 Oct 2003 03:29 PM |
| Hey, did you fight the Chaos Roc too? =P |
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