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Gem crafting
Posted: 29 Sep 2003 01:36 AM |
| Hi there I personally would love to see gem crafting get more difficult to raise and gain exp from. Though from personal experiance its almost better to gem craft non stop instead of going hunting which i'm sure some people do on another note I was wondering if the actual digging of gems could be scripted to be related to mineing? It would make more sense in skill's |
"...Another day passes and I slip further from reality..." |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 29 Sep 2003 02:01 AM |
I've always felt that gem crafting was a far too easy way to gain a large amount of xp. I hope that something is done to make it more in line with the other trade skills in tems of the ease of xp gain.
Poke |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 29 Sep 2003 11:07 AM |
I think Gemcrafting's too easy, some of the other ones too hard. I'd suggest an average between Smelting and Gem Crafting.
All IMHO, as usual, Barnas. |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 29 Sep 2003 02:26 PM |
on another note I was wondering if the actual digging of gems could be scripted to be related to mineing? It would make more sense in skill's
Erm... but to my knowladge mining is not an skill that you gain experience for... it is just something you do to get the ore, one does not become better at it in game. However I do most hardily agree that gemcrafting is a way too simple way to get a lot of experience. I know this because back in my youth I mined a lot of gems for two reasons:
1) Jade asked me to get her gems so that she could enchant them
2) It was real easy exp during a time when I couldn't hunt much on my own
Well, hope that helps the cause a bit.
~Calmeir |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 08 Oct 2003 08:36 AM |
Ok, so the gem crafting got changed, which is good, for indeed it was way too easy to get lots of xp. But now however I feel we got the other end of the 'chisel'. It now requires two additional skills to polish and enchant the gems... Isn't there another way of doing things ? I feel that it has become very hard now. Ok we can still chisel the gems out of the minerals, but as far as refining or enchanting them...
Any other solutions to this ?
Phoenix |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 08 Oct 2003 08:45 AM |
The enchanting will be changed aswell and won't be as easy as it is now. Though this hole proces of changing the CNR (the crafting in Vives) is rather big so it will take some (ALOT) time.
Enchanting will be some sort of whole new skill and will have less to do with gems.. Enchanting gems won't be able anymore, instead a bunch of ingrediënts + the to-be-enchanted item are needed.
gtg
Sug |
"ehehehehe,.."
Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo. |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 11:08 AM |
| So we should get rid of our enchanted gems? They will be totally useless? |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 01:32 PM |
Ok, so the gem crafting got changed, which is good, for indeed it was way too easy to get lots of xp. But now however I feel we got the other end of the 'chisel'. It now requires two additional skills to polish and enchant the gems... Isn't there another way of doing things ? I feel that it has become very hard now. Ok we can still chisel the gems out of the minerals, but as far as refining or enchanting them...
The original intention in switching from ATS to CNR, amongst other reasons, is that CNR is a very much interdependent skill-system. We'd like to see that each character can only contribute towards a particular process of the final 'product'.
Another more personal feeling towards tradeskill is... I'm starting to hate it (remember this is my personal feeling.) I've been seeing players having their characters rinse-lather-repeat for multitude of times alone and actively avoiding other characters, or any interactions. That is not what we wanted to see - availability of tradeskill is meant to open up options, not to limit you to one-dimensional actions - I'm not quite sure of the solution, but I do have the feeling that trying out other characters (CPCs included) / helping us out in fleshing out the settings / trying out other realms (and tell us how we can improve!) would be a more fruitful use of time.
More personal opinions on why tradeskills (and what not) coming later. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 01:51 PM |
well, I guess RP rewards getting bigger might convince players to interact more and craft less =p
but I think crafting doesnt -have- to be one dimensional..
If you go with someone else.. and craft together.. or he just acompany the crafting char..
can have a lot of conversations / interactions..
I once had good time going with Sug to hunt bears and make armors..
was pretty nice to explain how the craft works as a tailor ;)
and also was nice to send him with couple of leather armors, and tell him to try em on,
was really amusing time
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 02:09 PM |
Eheh yea that was good fun Dens but i understand Ari's remark. The tradeskills are used (not by everyone ofcourse) as an vast and maybe less dangerous way of gaining exp, than as the actual making stuff for trades or personal use.
I actually have a mixed feeling about this.. I firstly don't like the idea of doing-the-easy-way-and-lvl-up kinda thing.. Using CNR as a way to gain exp just for the exp. But on the otherhand IT IS pretty cool if you are playing a full crafter.. say a tailor, who only goes out to hunt for some pelts and CAN lvl up now and than due to the stuff he made..
(dunno if this is a bit clear... :P)
oh and Slink,.. yea you probably have to lose those enchated gems by than.. but it will take at least some months before the 'new enchanting' will be ingame.. So nothing big to worry about I guess.. |
"ehehehehe,.."
Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo. |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 07:20 PM |
aria's post is raises a point i would love to see discussed....
========================================
The original intention in switching from ATS to CNR, amongst other reasons, is that CNR is a very much interdependent skill-system. We'd like to see that each character can only contribute towards a particular process of the final 'product'.
Another more personal feeling towards tradeskill is... I'm starting to hate it (remember this is my personal feeling.) I've been seeing players having their characters rinse-lather-repeat for multitude of times alone and actively avoiding other characters, or any interactions. That is not what we wanted to see - availability of tradeskill is meant to open up options, not to limit you to one-dimensional actions - I'm not quite sure of the solution, but I do have the feeling that trying out other characters (CPCs included) / helping us out in fleshing out the settings / trying out other realms (and tell us how we can improve!) would be a more fruitful use of time.
More personal opinions on why tradeskills (and what not) coming later.
========================================
first off...Palfrey is a poster child for the "lather/rinse/repeat" scenario mentioned above. why, you might ask?
well, first off, he is a scout character, and my intention with him was to explore as many facets of this fascinating world as possible. second, he was conceived and developed as a non-combat character. in a combat situation, palfrey is about half as effective as his apparent level...his only saving grace is his summoned companion. so how did he get to his current character level? by crafting his patoot off in every skill available.
there were...and are...no consistent playing groups on this board. nor were there...nor are there...any consistent storyline adventures being developed and run by dm's. ad-hoc "let's go beat up the trolls" adventuring is, to me, more boring than sitting there chipping off chunks of rock. also, there is no mechanism whereby disparate craft specialists can *consistently* exchange the products of their crafts for the other pieces they need. the lack of any ability to obtain persistent storage for intermediate products and inventory is also a factor here. setting it up to be interdependent is a cruel joke when you can't find someone to trade with for that needed ingot...or herb. hence, palfrey was forced to master *every single craft* in the list, in order to make most of the final products he was interested in testing.
also, many of the required components are either missing altogether, or in locations impossible to access, or guarded by monsters impossible for anyone under 15th level to tackle.
now, i ain't complaining, don't mistake me. but ya can't have it both ways... the interdependence will only work in two circumstances: 1) a very large playing base, where you can count on "brownian motion" alone to provide the supply trading that will support specialist crafters, or 2) some institutional support...such as a resource exchange where a crafter can sell products to some NPC and buy needed components from the same or some other NPC. you have touches of this already....the bowstrings in gepetto's, the molds in bregodim, a few others.
aria, i think enough players feel similarly...that crafting is less boring than pointless adventuring or roleplaying....that they also resort to crafting as "something to do." also, often the only way to acquire enough character "power" to get past a certain critical blockage is to craft up a level or two. ara likes to make things hard on the players, that is obvious. or someone does. cuz otherwise there would be less unreasonable guards on the resources. you folks may be simply trying to force players to act cooperatively by upping the difficulty of crafting, and continually incrementing the power of the resource guards...but i got news for ya: if that is the object, it ain't working and it won't work.
the only way you are going to get the kind of player cooperation and banding together that you have stated is your goal is to provide direct support *for* it, not by making all the alternatives unattractive. IMHO (well, um, not so humble), there need to be *institutional* points in the world that support and help create that kind of cooperation. obviously, i would prefer dm'ed continuing storylines, but surely that is not the only solution that will work. unless you have the "seed crystals" this supersaturated solution will never crystalize into the structure we all know it can be. most of the required pieces are there...they have been there for a long time....but there is nothing they can organize around. |
But long ago he rode away
And where he dwelleth none can say |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 07:55 PM |
I find myself agreeing with a number of the points above, and I'll add a few twists of my own.
Becoming an expert at something, such as smithing, takes time and usually in solitude. Despite the name "crafting", becoming expert at something like making weapons is not like taking a night class in basket-weaving and then placing your class project on the mantelpiece. Crafting in NWN is also not like making a quilt. The text boxes of NWN make it almost impossible to hold a conversation while using the crafting devices because so much text scrolls by. Add to this the necessity to watch to be sure you aren't getting somone else's probabilities because of the packet misdeliveries, and there just isn't anyway to sit and chat while you make clay molds, for instance. It is possible to work together on acquiring the goods and doing the project steps. Mostly this means working apart, however, because otherwise the partners watch each other do something in silence. Gene and Loli have gone hunting together, and explored some places together to find herbs. That was fun. But then they had to separate while Loli made flasks. Gene gathered some more stuff during that time and we got together later. That was fun for us, too. The fact that it would not have been fun for others to watch isn't the point here, is it? And we have both stopped what we were doing to help newcomers, either jointly or alone. Even when she is smithing, Loli goes out for a run every now and then. She kills a few ettins or goblins, and lends a hand if it is needed.
If you take away combat as a way to advance, and then take away crafting as a way to advance, then the only avenues left for advancement are exploring to the limits of your level and no further (to avoid "death's sting") and waiting around hoping that someone will provide a quest with points at the end. I like interacting with people in the normal course of doing things, in an ongoing fashion. I don't like just hanging out on the street corner, listening to whatever level of drama might be available at the time for hours on end. That's too much like watching TV, and I don't do that either. :P |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 08:19 PM |
Well written Slink. I agree with you whole-heartedly. I have had many misadventures (and deaths) while going on.. um.. personal quests to find resources to craft with. It all depends on how someone plays, but there is the potential for plenty of interaction between players and it also allows for players to have their own "quests" when DMs are not around.
Jade would love nothing more than to gather a group of adventurers to go kick some Hydra *censored* tushy and to get some of the rewards that await in the mines beyond the Hydras. |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 10:27 PM |
Some more personal opinions on crafting, and responses to points generated. I sincerely hope that something fruitful can come out of this exchange.
there were...and are...no consistent playing groups on this board. nor were there...nor are there...any consistent storyline adventures being developed and run by dm's.
Problem: No consistent playing groups.
Solution: Taking the initiative to arrange one? A forum was created with this in mind - see the underused Adventuring Groups.
Problem: No consistent storyline adventures being developed and run by DMs.
Solution: Supplying our DMs with ideas? - See the outright unused Quest Suggestions forum.
also, many of the required components are either missing altogether, or in locations impossible to access, or guarded by monsters impossible for anyone under 15th level to tackle.
now, i ain't complaining, don't mistake me. but ya can't have it both ways... the interdependence will only work in two circumstances: 1) a very large playing base, where you can count on "brownian motion" alone to provide the supply trading that will support specialist crafters, or 2) some institutional support...such as a resource exchange where a crafter can sell products to some NPC and buy needed components from the same or some other NPC. you have touches of this already....the bowstrings in gepetto's, the molds in bregodim, a few others.
I would like to see this interdependence driven interaction, but I fail to see how (2), where a PC is interacting with a NPC, is conductive towards 'interaction'. If anything, it suggests to me a more closed-up crafter.
Regarding player-base, as I see it, the proper effect of the tradeskills really takes off with a more substantial player-base. The bow-strings, or the bottles previously, were temporary measures until we have a steady player-base for the tradeskills. About increments to the player-base, unfortunately there is not much we can do: I have made our announcements through a number of avenues (see here), but despite the frequent *bump*ing of the admin/DMs, not many players have taken the initiative to help advertise. A forum thread on page 8 isn't going to generate much publicity; a forum thread in which 7/8 posts are from the DM/Admins isn't going to be convincing either.
aria, i think enough players feel similarly...that crafting is less boring than pointless adventuring or roleplaying....that they also resort to crafting as "something to do."
Hence the concept and support for Cast-player Characters (CPCs), an opportunity to open up avenues and the chance of taking the initiative in making adventures for yourself and other players. And our continual, almost pleading requests to be involved in many other ways - apart from the above, also writing & building.
also, often the only way to acquire enough character "power" to get past a certain critical blockage is to craft up a level or two.
The adventure experience to crafting was seen as an icing on the cake, a minor bonus. I was quite surprised (in the unpleasant sense) when I learnt that it's been seen as a 'lucrative' experience source and inappropriately utilized (see earlier comments on this thread.)
The experience system of Vives is designed that the character-growth will plateau off, because we're hoping that by the time a particular character 'plateaus', which usually suggests several hundred hours of enjoyment, the player would take on some other roles - by that I mean both have a rich history behind that character such that they're something other than an adventurer (see Ellanesse as an example), developing and explore other characters, as well as engage him-/herself on the variety of other possibilities offered / help-needed.
ara likes to make things hard on the players, that is obvious. or someone does. cuz otherwise there would be less unreasonable guards on the resources. you folks may be simply trying to force players to act cooperatively by upping the difficulty of crafting, and continually incrementing the power of the resource guards...but i got news for ya: if that is the object, it ain't working and it won't work.
I think he realized that when the quicklings creamed up Horace 
the only way you are going to get the kind of player cooperation and banding together that you have stated is your goal is to provide direct support *for* it, not by making all the alternatives unattractive. IMHO (well, um, not so humble), there need to be *institutional* points in the world that support and help create that kind of cooperation.
See above; I do not understand how introducing NPC-based structures can improve PC interactions. They seems to me as, y'know, those virtual dancing / tanning machines - it's not the point.
obviously, i would prefer dm'ed continuing storylines, but surely that is not the only solution that will work. unless you have the "seed crystals" this supersaturated solution will never crystalize into the structure we all know it can be. most of the required pieces are there...they have been there for a long time....but there is nothing they can organize around.
I really really suggest exploring the various avenues jotted above. The bottom line is, there is only so much we can do; we can try our best in providing a number of options, but there is nothing we can do to make them fully (or even partially) utilized. Beautiful, delicate crystals are fragile entities - and Vives is no different. If you like what you see, you'd have to take an initiative to help it sustain and grow - writing a HowTo, taking the initiative to update the PHB, letting us know of role-playing / NwN resources - examples abound. Vives is not only about the module, but also the Setting and the Community. There is surely something to do when you're 'bored of adventuring' - something that helps you from being further 'bored from adventuring'.
--
My latest large development was an Extensible Creature Behaviours (which took forever to get right, but sadly seem to have gone unnoticed.) Next major items on my agenda are (i) History and Background of Port Royale (due Thursday ), (ii) Vives Builder's Toolkit (due Friday >.<), and (iii) an interface that allows DMs to build convos, and hopefully quests, via an in-game/web interface. (i) is in collaboration with Catcher and Ben, and would hopeully provide a coherent basis for other writers to work on facets of Port Royale; (ii) should provide more access to our library, guidelines, and all additional materials to build for Vives - conversation, quests, etc.; (iii) should open up many many possibilities beyond my imagination. Were these required for contribution? No - you don't need them to make simple conversations to spice up the environment. Are they going to be useful? I don't know. I can only offer possibilities; forcing anyone to take them up is not my intentions. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 11:04 PM |
Loli Wrote:
Gene and Loli have gone hunting together, and explored some places together to find herbs. That was fun. But then they had to separate while Loli made flasks. Gene gathered some more stuff during that time and we got together later. That was fun for us, too. The fact that it would not have been fun for others to watch isn't the point here, is it?
In my opinion, this is a fruitful usage of the crafting system - because it's something you look back and still say, "Well, that was fun." I'd hate to have someone looking back 3 months down the road and say, "Geez. I can't believe I spent hours on end to get that those 0 and 1's flip the right way." The last way we'd like to have a community is to enthrall them in slavery; this perhaps have something to do with our sense of social correctness.
See above reply to Palfrey for response to second part of the comment. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Gem crafting
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 08:56 AM |
I also find the interlocking nature of the crafts in CNR to be fascinating, Aria, but Palfrey is correct that unless you co-ordinate your online time with a number of people and limit yourself to playing _only_ when those people are online, you can't use those dependencies.
Here's what happend with my two characters in attempting to play co-operative CNR with random individuals encountered in Vives:
Gnora wandered into Midor and overheard Alenuska asking Fri'el if she could make ring molds. So she walked up and RPd an offer to make some for "Lady Alenuska". She then took the cart to Paws, dug the clay, took the cart to Port Royale, walked to Buckshire, made the ring molds, walked back to Port Royale, and took the cart to Midor. By then Alenuska had logged off. She spent the next two days my RL wandering around with 10 ring molds in her inventory. On the first day she ran across Fri'el and mentioned that she had Lady Alenuska's ring molds, and Fri'el said she would pass on the message. In the second day Fri'el ran away when she saw Gnora coming. Sometime after that Fri'el was making faces at Gnora behind Gnora's back when Gnora was weaving cotton in the tailor shop. I had pity on Gnora then and let her sell the ring molds to an NPC so she could walk properly all of the time. She then gave up trying to be a PC merchant to PCs. She sells her finished goods to NPC merchants, and PCs can buy them there, but not intermediates such as ring molds.
Palfrey approached Loli when she was new to Vives and invited her to become "partners" with him in making jewelry. After she lugged fire opal minerals for him and what turned out to be his real partner, Calandra, he tossed a couple of ingots of enchanted copper and a handful of enchanted fire agates at her and basically said "Here kid, have fun." Then he and Calandra went off to make fire opal rings together and, I presume, split them. Of course Loli could do nothing with those items Palfrey gave to her, and they were worth about 10 GP. Obviously Loli didn't feel very much like a "partner" at that point. "Used" was a lot closer to the feeling she had. If it had been a proposal up-front to hire her to haul the ore that would have been different, but it was obvious that he never intended her to get any good from the trip. The next RL day he ditched her in Whipsnade Pass when she was helping him hunt wolves for their skins. He ignored her while she was lying there dying, and then stopped to loot the barrels next to her body after she died. He never said one word to her the entire time and he pretended afterwards it had never happened. That was the end of her "partnership" with Palfrey.
CNR also adds a dimension of reality to Vives. Competition for resources is the underlying cause of most conflicts between nations, religions, and people. The only other cause that comes near is sexual jealousy, and that's in a far distant second place. The entire history of mankind can be understood as the saga of what happens when the population of a species expands past the resources available. European history is nothing but one war after another over natural resources for growing populations, ever since mankind walked north from Africa. Remove that aspect from Vives and there's nothing left to fight over except "I don't like the your taste in dresses." |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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