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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 17 Aug 2007 04:01 PM |
Thanks for those explanations, I didn't realize you had people playing single class wizards. (three ice storms at level 7? how crude!)
I may now create a new character instead of continuing with my rogue/wizard/to-be-shadowdancer-next-level now I realize how hated the class is. Just need to find where my new gnome bard can buy a tambourine... and work out how to roll play the tortoise... :)
Ah, tambourines don't deal damage. :(
Hey, yaknow what? If you wanna play that build, go for it. That's what Johe is and if he IS hated then I'll put a target on his arse so they know where the kiss goes. But I don't think he's hated by many, and frankly he's been fun to play, and a good catalyst for storylines in Vives. Like BKatt said, it's all about the story, which is something I've preached for years. Don't let peer pressure screw with what ya wanna do fella.
JJ |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 17 Aug 2007 05:45 PM |
I somewhat agree with Johe. If you want to make a Shadowdancer, don't let anything stop you. There are rules, and as long as you don't break the rules, you are fine. I certainly won't ignore or avoid you simply because you have Shadowdancer levels, even if they are merely for HIPS.
That said, it doesn't mean I'll support getting Shadowdancer for HIPS. BKatt did something with it; even if it were only for HIPS, he took it somewhere. No one else did that, no one at all. I played a lot with Johe's character, and I always enjoyed it - SD or not - but I never played along with the minimal roleplay put behind it to justify taking those three levels.
Alton never trusted shadowdancers, not a single one of them, no matter how they treated their own use of shadows, no matter what stood behind it, no matter that the player never gave it any 'darker' meanings, or any meaning at all. That was my way to put some RP into the class from my perspective, even when those who had it didn't, and was a whole lot of a better way take it than "Oh, sure, use the powers of darkness for no explained reason, I trust you."
Vives found a way to deal with class abuse with their minimum three levels rules. I think those may have been rendered less useful with epic levels, though. If it were up to be, I'd make it five minimum level, but that's not the point.
It does bring me to my next point - epic levels.
What's the policy on epic levels in Vives 2? The expansion pack for NWN2 is supposed to introduce them, if I'm not mistaken.
A large part of the reason I'm retired from Vives is due to epic levels. They pretty much are the cause for a lot of things that scared me away from playing. Which is why I always spoke against them and why I strongly advise against putting them.
My best time on Vives occurred when my characters were around level 10 and with parties of others around that level. High enough level to fight things thrown at them, low enough level to run away from them - all within sensible and believable boundaries. It also leaves plenty of room to strive for, but I strongly believe the limit should be placed at 20. Everything beyond that not only makes things ridiculous, it also creates way too much of a difference than the leveling mechanics of DnD do already. A level 10 character already has a difficult time hanging around level 20s and live - do you think it stands a chance with higher ones?
When levels get out of control, the world has to match them - this is what brought down Vives for me for a great part.
My last point concerns exponential character grows - sideways rather than upwards. This is after being introduced to Guild Wars and seeing the kind of variety you can give to a single character. Giving a character the option to grow in abilities rather than levels, to say gain certain special feats, spells, or items that can't be obtained normally, allows them to become more versatile and put more focus on each one - and also encourages RP.
Even though I don't agree with epic levels for Vives at all, I did have plenty of good times playing with Xaranthir and how we tried to uncover new lore, spells, etc. that provided a kind of growth other than one focused upwards. It wasn't just hack and slash to become more powerful, and it wasn't some epic plot that drew you in even if you didn't want it - it was fun, and others could easily join in it if they wanted to.
It doesn't have to apply just epic spells - it could be anything. Items is a simple example; I'm very supportive of items specialized against certain creatures, such a sword designed for trollslaying or a sword designed for orclsaying, and have them an actually viable option over general weapons - in fact I think general weapons should always be inferior to weapons you could get that specialize in certain areas; again, it creates more versatility, more focus on each character from all perspectives, and less of the concept of "I can pwn all! lololol!!!11one". All within reasonable values, of course.
It's even better if the best of such specialized things can unique to characters who show good RP and work towards them. A good example is Scooper's Shovel (The famous Model No. 0003!). A wizard who really specializes in Enchantment and plays it well could get Enchantment spells otherwise not available (if it's possible). A fighter who roleplays specializing against orcs could get a unique weapon that is the best possible one to get against them, more so than ordinary specialized items - if you want to fight orcs, you'd want that guy with you, although he shouldn't be the only one capable of holding his own against them, he should be the best at it - a true asset.
That kind of specialization will let each character grow to eventually become unique, different from the others, which contributes to all aspects of playing the game. It doesn't have to be easy to achieve, or easily handed, but it's a nice thing for players to strive for.
I don't know if such thing is at all possible to make, or if it takes too much work to be a viable option, but if it is it could be great addition to Vives 2 over Vives. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 17 Aug 2007 06:12 PM |
Thanks for those explanations, I didn't realize you had people playing single class wizards. (three ice storms at level 7? how crude!)
I may now create a new character instead of continuing with my rogue/wizard/to-be-shadowdancer-next-level now I realize how hated the class is. Just need to find where my new gnome bard can buy a tambourine... and work out how to roll play the tortoise... :)
Ah, tambourines don't deal damage. :(
Hey, don't let anyone stop you, as long as you enjoy the class. There seem to be a lot of SD haters in Vives, but I bet there are as many mage haters or, say cleric or monk haters as well. Personally, I don't find Shadowdancers cheesy as long as they are not an epic monk with 1 SD level. Hell, half of my chars are SDs, not for power, much more for survival. Not everyone can play at US peak times, and a SD is an excellent choice to explore the world alone when noone is on. In an environment that is not focused on PvP I think HiPS "spamming" is just a logical survival decission and far away from powergaming.
I always found taking just one level cheesy, as cheesy as a Fighter with one Wizard level for Arcane Archer or whatever. The Vives rule for taking at least 3 levels is an excellent rule I'd like to see on many other servers too, not only because taking just a single level is dull, but also to encourage players to roleplay out the classes they chose. When you're enforced to take 3 wizard levels for your Arcane Archer powerbuild, you might start thinking about taking even more for making your char a little more special than those average archers around you, and might end up with a totally different character than you initially planned to build. |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 17 Aug 2007 10:04 PM |
A large part of the reason I'm retired from Vives is due to epic levels. They pretty much are the cause for a lot of things that scared me away from playing. Which is why I always spoke against them and why I strongly advise against putting them.
My best time on Vives occurred when my characters were around level 10 and with parties of others around that level. High enough level to fight things thrown at them, low enough level to run away from them - all within sensible and believable boundaries. It also leaves plenty of room to strive for, but I strongly believe the limit should be placed at 20. Everything beyond that not only makes things ridiculous, it also creates way too much of a difference than the leveling mechanics of DnD do already. A level 10 character already has a difficult time hanging around level 20s and live - do you think it stands a chance with higher ones?
When levels get out of control, the world has to match them - this is what brought down Vives for me for a great part.
This is a pretty common complaint...it is coming up on the discussion forums where I play NWN2 these days as the clock ticks down on the release of the Mask of the Betrayer. That server actually has mandatory retirement when your character hits level 20, and also a limit of 500 combat xp per day. The founders there don't want 'a bunch of epic-level hangers-on cluttering the server' (I don't really offer an opinion one way or the other - by my calculations, my current character will take a few years for that to even be an issue).
In an environment like that, what matters? Knowledge, relationships (i.e. who are your allies and who are your enemies), gold, goodies, etc. What also matters very much is storylines. DMs need to be around running plots, or even the most ingenious roleplayers are left replaying tired scenarios ad nauseum. With or without xp caps, a dungeon is only new once, unless the builder(s) are perpetually changing them.
The number of players on the server inevitably increases when DMs are regularly on and inevitably goes down when they aren't. I retired from Vives in part because I felt I hadn't been involved in a meaningful storyline for a very long time, then landed on a server where there were regularly DMs on in my time zone. I doubt if you'll find any players who say they left a server 'because the darn DMs just kept throwing things at my character every time I logged on'.
This is hardly earth-shattering or original (it is, after all, coming from someone who has only played single-classed humans on any PW), but since I've now taken a step up onto a soap-box after a four month hiatus, I guess I'll share a few other opinions:
1. I don't see any reasons to strengthen certain classes and weaken others. I'd rather see a game design that makes solo play impossible. Dungeons with deadly traps, death magic, -and- creatures with magic immunity are very hard to go through solo.
2. Make death hurt: Vives already does this. Vives 2 should as well.
3. Go easy on the rules, and don't be heavy-handed on the enforcement of those that there are. I personally don't care if player X has a "power-build" if player X is fun to role-play with.
If, as a DM, you see a player with an 8 charisma and zero points in diplomacy giving an impassioned speech to woo the masses, send him a tell asking him to make a diplomacy roll and have the townsfolk boo him off the soap-box and toss rotten fruit at him rather than sending him a tell or a PM to let him know his role-play is sh*t.
4. Try to create a diverse world by creating DM events / static quests that catch a diverse character base: (1) Save the world, goody goody types, (2) Mercenary types, (3) Scholarly types, (4) Cold killers, etc.
5. Keep subtlety. Subtlety was always a strong point in Vives 1. You can't see another character's class on login in NWN2, which to me is huge. People won't automatically know that you're a blackguard, assassin, divine champion, or whatever tickles your fancy in Vives 2 when they log in. They also won't know your alignment, obviously. There should be a lot more room for subtle, devious evil, and, might I suggest, with the improvements to the Harper Scout class, subtle, devious good.
I suppose I could say a lot more, but I have to go now.
Cheers. |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 17 Aug 2007 10:14 PM |
Personally, I'm of the opinion that epic levels are good.
I'm also of the opinion that no-one should ever get there- these days, anyway.
What does that mean, exactly? Really, that I don't believe in a hard cap. Just because. I hate the idea of a "Max level", a level of power where everyone stops.
I do, however, believe that advancement should slow to the point of, say, no combat XP, and all other XP coming in at 1/10th the rate of a normal character. (10 RP XP=1 XP). Everyone starts to slow down, but the oldest characters are still ahead of newer ones.
I also believe that the "Slowing down" should be very much happening at levels 7-9. People at level 12-13 should be at the "Now I idle" stage.
-Barnas |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 18 Aug 2007 06:20 AM |
| "I also believe that the "Slowing down" should be very much happening at levels 7-9. People at level 12-13 should be at the "Now I idle" stage." I certainly agree with that. |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 18 Aug 2007 08:28 AM |
xp += xpreward/(your current level)
done.
Sorted.
;-) |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 18 Aug 2007 10:00 AM |
I somewhat agree with Johe. If you want to make a Shadowdancer, don't let anything stop you. There are rules, and as long as you don't break the rules, you are fine. I certainly won't ignore or avoid you simply because you have Shadowdancer levels, even if they are merely for HIPS.
That said, it doesn't mean I'll support getting Shadowdancer for HIPS. BKatt did something with it; even if it were only for HIPS, he took it somewhere. No one else did that, no one at all. I played a lot with Johe's character, and I always enjoyed it - SD or not - but I never played along with the minimal roleplay put behind it to justify taking those three levels.
Alton never trusted shadowdancers, not a single one of them, no matter how they treated their own use of shadows, no matter what stood behind it, no matter that the player never gave it any 'darker' meanings, or any meaning at all. That was my way to put some RP into the class from my perspective, even when those who had it didn't, and was a whole lot of a better way take it than "Oh, sure, use the powers of darkness for no explained reason
When I first started playing D&D ,what seems like a lifetime ago, There was one class I always had a hard time with. The bard just never seemed to fit into my personal concept of what a fantasy world should be like. It always kinda bothered me that all they had to do was sing a tune and things happened. It just didn't seem "real". That discomfort stayed with me through PnP D&D, 5 years of Everquest, and NWN, and Vives, but never to the point that I would disrespect the outstanding roleplay of a bard like Trishy's Macha.
Just because one doesn't know everything about a character (like you would about that annoying PnP nerd who insists on wasting the DM's time telling everyone at the table exactly what he's wearing, and how he looks right down to the very last detail that nobody really gives a crap about), doesn't mean that those things aren't an integral part of that characters personality. For instance, the reason Johe is a rogue/wiz/SD is because he was designed to be a "jack of all trades" style character, which is also, btw, the reason I wanted to make it known that he wasn't just a "thief" and came up with the "guyver" designation for what he was designed to do. Johe was an experiment, (and a rather succesful one I think), in trying to break preconcieved notions about the rogue class. HIPS, like all of Johe's other "morally questionable" abilities, is a tool that the guyver uses to try and get things done. He always knew the ability was linked to "darkness" but frankly didn't give a rip. It , like a sword or a acid trap, was a tool of the trade and would be used for his purposes. What is happening now in the Return of the Guyver story is that thru Cora he has seen what the shadows are doing to Cora, and finds himself in a position where he is at odds with the very "tools" he has been using.
If one feels about HIPS, the way another feels about Bard song, the way another feels about TS, the way another feels about powerful wizard spells, or different builds that are in the game for a reason, and frankly make it far more interesting than the Basic D&D I played back in the day, then I think one needs to do what I did and remember that this is a "fantasy game" and while it is interesting to persue as much reality as one can in that fantasy setting, it's also prudent to note that "reality in fantasy" is an oxymoron. Not liking HIPS while not thinking twice about raising someone from the dead just doesn't make a bunch of sense to me. The cleric , the wizard, the bard, and the SD/rogue all find RP "excuses" for the fantastical things they can do. If the RP of the SD isn't up to your standards then I apologise, but still think that you're being a little unfair to ONE ability while there are a thousand other "elephants" in the room.
A large part of the reason I'm retired from Vives is due to epic levels. They pretty much are the cause for a lot of things that scared me away from playing. Which is why I always spoke against them and why I strongly advise against putting them.
My best time on Vives occurred when my characters were around level 10 and with parties of others around that level. High enough level to fight things thrown at them, low enough level to run away from them - all within sensible and believable boundaries. It also leaves plenty of room to strive for, but I strongly believe the limit should be placed at 20. Everything beyond that not only makes things ridiculous, it also creates way too much of a difference than the leveling mechanics of DnD do already. A level 10 character already has a difficult time hanging around level 20s and live - do you think it stands a chance with higher ones?
When levels get out of control, the world has to match them - this is what brought down Vives for me for a great part.
Just because epic levels cause changes in how a DM "challenges" players, does not mean that our capable DM's can't rise to that challenge. The Breath raid you were invited to would have been a very good proof of that In the end it comes down to RP, something I have seen a lot of and have been very impressed with since I came to Vives.
I guess what I am trying to say is, if the class is in the system, and the multi classing is allowed by the system, I think the builders would be doing Vives 2 a massive disservice if they tried to curtail the combinations available, or even try to dissuade people from playing certain combo's by making them "unpopular" in boards like this one
My suggested guidline for Vives 2?
Build/Roleplay/follow the rules/enjoy |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 18 Aug 2007 11:48 AM |
We've been going through the classes, PrCs, races and subraces, and have actually already gone through this discussion some months ago.
I guess what I am trying to say is, if the class is in the system, and the multi classing is allowed by the system, I think the builders would be doing Vives 2 a massive disservice if they tried to curtail the combinations available, or even try to dissuade people from playing certain combo's by making them "unpopular" in boards like this one
This was actually one of the big issues that came up. Vives has always been about allowing as much freedom, within reason, for playing whatever combination or style you like. Everything from dodgy thieves to heroes with delusions of grandeur, treasure-hunters to storytellers, heroes and villains. If you don't like a particular class/race/play style combo, you don't have to take it.
I think it's pretty safe at this point to reveal what we've decided to do with regards to keeping as many reasonable options/combinations possible, whilst restricting others (both for reasons of balance and consistency in lore):
* Races, classes and PrCs have been divided into RP Difficulty Ratings of Easy, Intermediate and Advanced
* This greatly helps both new and existing players to gauge how hard it would be to try and RP a particular class/race combo (note that it's a guideline that's there to help, not a hard and fast rule)
* All base classes are rated Easy
* This means no more "you must meet requirements x, y and z to take a BASE CLASS"... all base classes are intended to be easy to play (that's why they are a base class, after all!)
* We have a lot of factions, beliefs, and other lore that pretty much covers the entire spectrum of what you might like a base class to be... so for example, two rogues or two druids of exactly the same level and build might still be completely different in character and play style
* PrCs are somewhat tricker - although most are Easy, others are Intermediate or Advanced
* Some PrCs (eg. Assassin) will require "unlocking" through IG quests - some of them are quite easy (Dwarven Defender), others are challenging (Pale Master)
* A very small handful of PrCs are DM-restricted: this is because they have secret or advanced lore behind them and require a high level of assumed knowledge
The following are non-spoilerrific excerpts from the Vives 2 Primer:
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Primer: Introduction
Vives: a land of magic... and mysteries.
An entrancing world of steel and magery,
Home of the romantic and the savage.
A long-forgotten realm
Where beliefs shape destinies.
Presenting Vives,
A mythological land of epics and adventures,
Where fantasy meets reality.
Vives 1 PHB,
2nd Edition
==================================================
What is Vives?
==================================================
Welcome to Vives, a poetic and breathing Neverwinter Nights persistent world!
Before you begin your journey, there are some things you should know so that you can decide whether Vives is the world for you.
Vives is:
* Focused on roleplaying and storytelling
* A world which supports a very diverse range of playing styles and stories
* A new setting with its own unique lore
* A world where actions have lasting consequences
* A world rooted deeply in continuity and the actions of previous Players, some of which may not be readily apparent at first
Vives is not:
* For munchkins - try Gamespy's Action, Arena, PW Action or Melee categories for that
* For cybering - try Gamespy's Social category for that
* One single, unified campaign; there are story threads all over the place, and the stories are often quite diverse in genre and scope
* A single-player game; you aren't the centre of the universe, and you'll get a lot more out of the world if you try to integrate yourself into it
* A multiplayer campaign focused on one story and one set of characters; it is more like a series of unified short stories strung together than an epic focused on one topic alone
If all this still sounds appealing to you, then welcome — and read on, traveller...
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How to read this Primer
==================================================
The purpose of this Primer is to give new Players a very basic overview of the world so that you can jump in fairly quickly. It is not supposed to be a thorough, in-depth manual: that is what the Player's Handbook is for.
At a minimum, Players are expected to have read the Essential Information chapter.
It is the responsibility of EVERY Player to ensure that they are familiar with the essential information of Vives.
Throughout this Primer, the following terms are used:
1. Roleplaying Difficulty Level
2. Lore Recognition Level
These guidelines will aid you in creating characters and integrating them into the world.
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Roleplaying Difficulty Level
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The Roleplaying Difficulty Level is an indicator which allows PCs to gauge how difficult it is to roleplay certain race/class combinations. It exists as a helpful guideline for PCs, so that they can make informed decisions at Character Creation about how hard it will be to roleplay their concept.
Easy
An easy character to play.
Intermediate
Requires some effort to read up on appropriate lore.
Advanced
A very difficult character to play, requiring a lot of familiarity with the appropriate background lore.
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Lore Recognition Level
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Lore Recognition Level indicates how well-known a particular piece of lore is. Sometimes it is determined by ranks in Lore, Spellcraft or relevant skill/feat/class/race combinations. At other times, it is determined by other factors which are not so easily quantifiable.
Common
Assumed to be known by all characters, unless they've been living under a rock or have an RP reason not to know.
Uncommon
Known to those who are fairly well-informed, or have an RP reason to know.
Rare
Lore which is not readily available, but may be obtained if a character puts significant effort into researching it.
Specialist
Known only to characters who meet the appropriate prerequisites. Not even a loremaster would know this lore, unless they meet the prerequisites.
Secret
Vives is a world of many secrets and mysteries. Some of these may be discovered through DM intervention by PCs who display outstanding RP and put a lot of effort into it.
+++++
Some vague, non-spoileriffic information on character creation in general:
* We are keeping DM-restricted character races/classes to a minimum because, well, we just don't like putting such restrictions on our players
* We are keeping advanced races/classes to a minimum because we don't want to have to force players to swallow entire encyclopedias of information before they can even play
* Having said that, for those willing to take on the challenge, we have included some intermediate/advanced options... but we have been very careful to ensure that they are optional and that anything which is a basic race or class is simple to play
Some vague, non-spoileriffic information on races:
* Dwarf: Mostly easy
* Elf: The common variety is easy; but there is also an advanced option
* Gnome: Easy
* Halfling: Mostly easy; but there is one complex, advanced option
* Half-Elf: The common variety is easy; but those descended from the advanced category of Elves are intermediate
* Half-Orc: Easy, although one variety is intermediate and restricted
* Human: Varies wildly from easy to advanced, depending on background
Some vague, non-spoileriffic information on classes and PrCs:
* All base classes are easy
* Some PrCs will be renamed
* All PrCs will fit in with Vives 2 lore
* We will be using all the provided PrCs and will not be dropping any of them
* We are designing some Vives-2-specific PrCs but due to the effort required to implement them, they will not be available in the initial release of Vives 2
The following information is current as of now but may change by the time Vives 2 is released:
* Indicates that this PrC will be renamed
* DM permission: Arcane Archer; Divine Champion; Neverwinter Nine*; Red Dragon Disciple*; Shadowdancer
* Requires unlocking: Assassin; Blackguard; Dwarven Defender; Harper Agent*; Pale Master; Shadow Thief of Amn*
* No restrictions: Arcane Trickster; Duelist; Eldritch Knight; Frenzied Berserker; Warpriest; Weaponmaster |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 18 Aug 2007 02:32 PM |
This sound great.
I especially like the idea of unlockable prestige classes. I take it these will be something along the lines of the prestige class initiation rights suggested in the 'Unearthed Arcana' PnP book? |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions
Posted: 18 Aug 2007 02:54 PM |
This does sound very good, and interesting. The one thing that I hope is that after my years of trying to show a different side to the rogue, that there will be room for a rogue that doesn't HAVE to be on the evil side of the spectrum, and can be a force for good even if a misunderstood one ;)
JJ |
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Vives II Suggestions: PC builds...
Posted: 18 Aug 2007 04:33 PM |
When life gets more managalbe:
I have a few PC builds that I had dreamt up and have sketched in a Word.doc for IG play... I'm working out the kinks of Kalannar's translation to the new rules, and unfortunately Animal has been lost in translation... (MAN!) There may be an appearance of my newest creation: "Sting", if he doesn't break any rules of creation... SOOOoooo, considering that there will be some (although not many, it seems) limitations should I/we send in potential PC builds for consideration? (please PM response)
I can't wait to see the new Vives2PHB to get familiar with common lore and begin to dream up my future player's significance! (Yes I'm one of those geeks who actually reads Player's Handbooks!)
I SOO enjoy this Gameworld. You have some of the best programmers and players I've had the privelege of sharing time with.
K.I.
(NOTE TO CONCERNED FRIENDS: It's been fun sneaking in for a few short bursts this week and seeing old friends after being gone for many months! Recovery has been stabilizing, and I'm catching up at work now... almost there, can't wait to get Kalannar, "Animal" and Filraen back into some action!) |
"Life is a short trip... travel light"
--
PC Descriptions with Journal Links |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions: PC builds...
Posted: 18 Aug 2007 06:46 PM |
Hrmmm, I really like the sound of Vives 2. Besides, I always enjoy a brand new fresh off the stove world to explore. The unlockable prestige classes sounds REALLY fun, and I can only wait to see what sort of quests will be required to unlock them.
Anyways. one thing I was wondering about. Vives 2 is going to be after the expansion is released, AFAIK. I'm presuming that will be required for Vives 2. How will that content be worked in, or is that to be determined? |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions: PC builds...
Posted: 18 Aug 2007 07:21 PM |
RE: NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer
The use (or not) of content is still to be determined. Just like NWN2, we can't comment until the game actually comes out and we have a play around with it.
Just like V1 though, there will be no planewalker aasimar/tiefling/etc freaks, so don't expect genasi to be a PC race. |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions: PC builds...
Posted: 18 Aug 2007 07:44 PM |
Eh, that's OK Looked at some of the concept art earlier today, and they looked silly anyways. Besides, how does an elemental mate... well... period? o_O |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions: PC builds...
Posted: 28 Nov 2007 09:49 AM |
Changing the day/night cycle, as far as I understand, has implications aside from aesthetics.
First of all, there's things like the Aegea, like you said, and other factors which change from day to night that have an impact on game play. Whether or not the same ideas will be implemented in Vives2 is left to be seen, but assuming they are - too long a night would mean too long a wait, which hurts game play.
Aside from that, and something which I'm not sure of, is that certain spells have a duration which is based on hours (such as hour/level). While rounds and turns are easily defined regardless of the in game time progression, hours seem to last based on hours as counted in the game. That means that in a case where a spell lasts 24 hours (like the Summon # spells): if one IG hour equals one IG minute, then the spell lasts 24 RL minutes, but if one IG hour equals one RL hour, then the same spell lasts 24 RL hours.
I'd like some confirmation on that last bit, but that's the impression I got from the system. If that is the case, then there's balance issues to consider when shortening/lengthening the day/night cycles.
However, I agree with Frimble's basic idea. I would also like to see a day/night cycle which lasts longer. The impact in makes can be both negative (in the case of waiting too long for the Aegea) and positive (such as certain events/occurrences/effects/stuff which happen only at night, like the bats/hounds at night in Midor Woods).
All in all, I'd rather pass on things like waiting for a ship because it doesn't sail at night - which causes more annoyance than anything else - for a day/night cycle which lasts longer and thus has more impact.
(Wicked Artist)
Other games, like my internet moon game, work on a six hour day. But really, I'm not against 1 RL day = 1 Vives day. Spell durations can be altered if they're unbalancing. As far as the boat traveling at night, just add another boat that sails at night and just charges more. I'm not against things being harder at night; it should be so.
(Diabolo Stan)
Lets say 1 RL day = 1 Vives day. If I login at 10 pm then what time is it in game? If LowFatPretzels or Fictrix log in at 10pm then what time is it for them? Lets say vives is set to an American time zone. I will always be playing at day, while LFP is always playing at night.
Are you saying you are in favor of discriminating against certain timezones or have you just not thought this through? ;)
Anyway, don't jack this thread. Take this conversation elsewhere.
(Diabolo Stan)
Sorry, I thought we were posting in this thread. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions: PC builds...
Posted: 28 Nov 2007 10:28 AM |
In general I don't comment on the time of day when conversing in character unless I know what timezone other folks are in. I don't want to be presumptuous. But, if someone tells me "good morning" or "good evening" I just go with it. Its such a small thing.
This has always been sticky. You can't exactly ignore the days flying by, but you can make creative use of the apparent time-compression, like in theater or in a movie. If its a good time in the conversation for dawn to break, be the one to announce the dawn. Ignore the last three dawns that went by while you were RPing there, it doesn't mean you've been talking for three days straight. If nightfall brings some suspense, comment that night is falling (because its getting dark on the server) to enhance the atmosphere and nevermind what time it really is in the other players' timezone. It can be any time of day at any point IG. That's the benefit of this time compression. You can "get" any time of day you need if you can wait a little bit.
You also have to ignore the fact that you can travel from one end of the land to the other within 10 minutes or less, and you have to pretend that the ten Midorans in Midor represent thousands (or that Ferein is full of elves). I don't think this is any different.
What I really like about things happening in more-or-less real time, is that we have consistency server-wide over when things happened. Events that took place one or two years ago are historically one or two years old, and everyone agrees on that. Its like the rule that goes "No planes in Vives". You hear it once and you never have to hear it again.
You could also have that if everyone agreed to some ratio like 4 hrs = 1 game day (1 day/week/year RL = 6 in game), but I feel like that's an unnecessary conversion. I don't want to worry about converting days into weeks while I'm RPing, so the other player can convert it back, to figure out that I just asked them to meet me on Saturday night. I demand simplicity! |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Vives II Suggestions: PC builds...
Posted: 28 Nov 2007 08:27 PM |
Why should the game be any different from real life? I have a night job. I don't think it's fair that I should always have to work when it's dark out. But the fact remains, my schedule has me up usually only at night, and things are generally less convenient at night. Fewer stores are open for one thing.
This is a matter of comfort zones. I can only speak for my personal comfort; that I would be okay with a 24 hour day, regardless if it meant I was usually playing during the day, or at night. Naturally, because it makes sense to me, I imagine it should make sense to others. If people disagree with me, then we need to decide what makes the most people happy. A twelve hour day? A six hour day? A 48 minute day? Too short a day challenges suspension of disbelief, too long a day can prove inconvenient (but that can be easily worked around). The best argument I've heard so far for a 24 hour day is making plans IG. The very least we should have is a name for every day, and an official IG time equivalent (Meet me on Satyrsday at six bells past high sun). |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Time and Other Suggestions
Posted: 28 Nov 2007 11:30 PM |
In all the time I've played on Vives, I don't think I've ever had a problem with time. I think it's just a key part of suspending reality when you play. I say good morning or afternoon or evening when I first meet someone, but if we're talking and three or four cycles go past and it's dark when we're done, I might say good night or nothing at all.
If I told someone in character that I would meet with them three days hence, then we just assumed that the next time we met (whether it was 1 RL day or 10 RL days or whatever was that time, unless we stumbled upon each other accidentally before then. Unless it somehow affected an overall plotline or some time-dependent event, who cares?
Unless you have some sort of campaign or storyline that is very time-dependent, I don't see how it matters all that much. 1 RL day = 1 Vives day...great!
Now, as for other things I want to see in Vives2, I have some additional thoughts that I know you're dying to hear.
1) At least one working lighthouse, plus at least one ruined one. Lighthouses are cool. It should have an ancient history, some magic associated with it and a cool dungeon underneath. I don't think I'm asking a lot here.
2) Ship-to-ship battles. I want to be able to shoot my crossbow at people on the opposing ship, then click on the railing of my ship, climb a rope, make a Dex or Rope Use check or whatever, appear on the other ship and engage in melee combat. Otherwise, how else am I going to become a pirate legend and scourge of the seas.
3) I would encourage GMs and builders to think about combat in difficult and exciting places. Walking on an old rope bridge high above a waterfall and having to make a Dex check is cool. Fighting something while on that bridge is even cooler. A chance that the bridge breaks and I fall into the river below is even moreso. Think James Bond and all the ridiculous combat scenes and then translate to Vives2.
I can do regular combat on any world or in the single player campaign. It's not that I necessarily get tired of fighting regular monster (goblins, orcs) all the time; it's often because the environment is always the same. The slow effect in the lizard men area is awesome. Pitch dark, with light spells not working: cool. Make me work for it, even if I bitch about it later.
Would love to see, if possible, different tribes of humanoids with unique features or at least looking differently. Snow Orcs of Vives1 is a good step in that direction. I demand more, damnit!
4) A huge arena with gladiatorial combat, perhaps a way to test one's mettle against particular monsters and a ground for PvP combat duels of honor. This would be cool. You cannot deny it.
5) More deserted castles. Not enough in Vives1. Castles ARE fantasy. More are needed. I think everyone understands how critical this is.
6) Lots of different food recipes, and getting xp for cooking. This might actualy make me take up crafting one day. What about a farming system? What about, I say? Yes, I say.
7) Fewer gnomes. Less technology. This is fantasy, not steam-punk. No offense to anyone who's ever played a gnome, but how many technology-jargon spouting half dwarves/half-halflings running around in a mad daze does any world need? (Yes, yes, I know, how many overweight, dour paladins does a world need, but I'm the one posting). I can only hope they're GM-restricted (gnomes that is, not paladins).
8) Number seven does not apply to balloons and other semi-crude flying vehicles (not too much technology). Those are cool. Even cooler if a gnome is not involved with it. And even cooler if there is air-to-air combat (see numbers 2 and 3).
9) Better defined sense of countries, nations, political boundaries and cultures. More political intrigue. More nobles. I have already mentioned this. You have already responded in the affirmative. Nevertheless. I say again. I think it would be cool if not just certain races but certain countries have specific PRCs or classes or special types of characters. I'm very excited to hear about all the lore and such in place.
10) More parasols.
11) More barbarian stuff and more starting gold
I am mostly serious about all of these! |
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for...
-- Ernest Hemingway |
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Re: Time and Other Suggestions
Posted: 29 Nov 2007 02:49 AM |
1) At least one working lighthouse, plus at least one ruined one. Lighthouses are cool. It should have an ancient history, some magic associated with it and a cool dungeon underneath. I don't think I'm asking a lot here.
There is already one. It was one of the first landmarks ever written by the writers. We like lighthouses too. ;)
2) Ship-to-ship battles. I want to be able to shoot my crossbow at people on the opposing ship, then click on the railing of my ship, climb a rope, make a Dex or Rope Use check or whatever, appear on the other ship and engage in melee combat. Otherwise, how else am I going to become a pirate legend and scourge of the seas.
Depends on how difficult it is to script. Poking around some of the older, broken scripts and some of the working ones, it looks like pirate encounters were actually on the list of Stuff To Implement.
Definitely on the list of stuff we want to implement. In the meantime, tagging along on Corbin's adventures *cough*shameless plug*cough* is the way to go in V1! And it's DMed, so guaranteed to be better than scripted skill checks!
3) I would encourage GMs and builders to think about combat in difficult and exciting places. Walking on an old rope bridge high above a waterfall and having to make a Dex check is cool. Fighting something while on that bridge is even cooler. A chance that the bridge breaks and I fall into the river below is even moreso. Think James Bond and all the ridiculous combat scenes and then translate to Vives2.
Alas, it depends largely on the game engine. Breaking a bridge and falling into water... not possible in V1 or V2.
I can do regular combat on any world or in the single player campaign. It's not that I necessarily get tired of fighting regular monster (goblins, orcs) all the time; it's often because the environment is always the same. The slow effect in the lizard men area is awesome. Pitch dark, with light spells not working: cool. Make me work for it, even if I bitch about it later.
Again, that depends. We don't want to punish our RPers. D20 mechanics are overly retarded (in my opinion — which is not necessarily that of the DM team or anyone else).
I'm very pleased that Vives isn't a Hardcore world and rations/resting/death/etc aren't overdone. If I have to fight the mechanics any more than I have to, I'll move on to a different game. I hate NWN's mechanics with a passion. If I have to put up with more complications than the system already has, it had better be because there's a DM around, not because it's built-in to Vives' mechanics. I can trust a DM to edit things suitably on the fly. I don't trust automatically scripted mechanics. At all. Did I already mention I hate NWN mechanics and d20?
Would love to see, if possible, different tribes of humanoids with unique features or at least looking differently. Snow Orcs of Vives1 is a good step in that direction. I demand more, damnit!
Already done, both for PC and NPC races. We think you'll all be very pleased with our implementation of "sub-races" (which we've done slightly differently). Everything you fight, you can also study. Wouldn't it be cool if a Ranger's "Favoured Enemy" feats were good for more than just attack/etc bonuses? In V2, they are. Expect to be able to actually dedicate your character's life to studying your favoured enemy's strengths, weaknesses, and even culture. That is the sort of depth of the lore, and the variety of sub-races for your favoured enemy, that you can expect for V2.
4) A huge arena with gladiatorial combat, perhaps a way to test one's mettle against particular monsters and a ground for PvP combat duels of honor. This would be cool. You cannot deny it.
There will be an OOC area, but we don't encourage PvP, and in V1 the OOC Arena isn't really used for anything other than testing. That won't change. We have so few areas to work with in V2.
For those that really like arena-style fights, it's probably better to find an NWN2 server or another game that specialises in that. Plenty of Vives players play on other PWs or play other games. Vives will remain focused on what it's good at, not try to be something it's not.
5) More deserted castles. Not enough in Vives1. Castles ARE fantasy. More are needed. I think everyone understands how critical this is.
That depends on how many types of castles there are in the toolset.
There won't be any abandoned castles in the initial release. The V2 world is really big, and we've really had to strip it down and cut back on what we will initially have (in terms of areas, quests, etc).
There may be abandoned castles in future releases, if the toolset permits it, and if we get enough builders.
We currently have 2 builders and about 3 scripters. 1 of those builders is super hyperactive. 1 of them is semi-active. All 3 of our scripters are buried under an avalanche of RL-ness.
The delay in the release of V2 comes from having only 2 builders. Ara will confirm that building a single area takes a very long time (about 20 tries per area, starting from scratch with each consecutive try). So we have been really, really, really picky about the design of each area, and which areas we will actually build. Every single area has to be special, and our building guidelines for V2 are very strict.
6) Lots of different food recipes, and getting xp for cooking. This might actualy make me take up crafting one day. What about a farming system? What about, I say? Yes, I say.
Depends on whether we get the resources to script it.
7) Fewer gnomes. Less technology. This is fantasy, not steam-punk. No offense to anyone who's ever played a gnome, but how many technology-jargon spouting half dwarves/half-halflings running around in a mad daze does any world need? (Yes, yes, I know, how many overweight, dour paladins does a world need, but I'm the one posting). I can only hope they're GM-restricted (gnomes that is, not paladins).
The lore for Gnomes in V2 is different.
Expect to see something more along the lines of classical Greek philosophy/mathematics in their way of thinking. But, Gnome-style. That is, it has weird randomness and arcane jargon thrown into the mix. And words that would make Roald Dahl and J. K. Rowling proud.
8) Number seven does not apply to balloons and other semi-crude flying vehicles (not too much technology). Those are cool. Even cooler if a gnome is not involved with it. And even cooler if there is air-to-air combat (see numbers 2 and 3).
Air-to-air combat: depends on the engine, depends on how hard it is to script.
9) Better defined sense of countries, nations, political boundaries and cultures. More political intrigue. More nobles. I have already mentioned this. You have already responded in the affirmative. Nevertheless. I say again. I think it would be cool if not just certain races but certain countries have specific PRCs or classes or special types of characters. I'm very excited to hear about all the lore and such in place.
Already done. It was one of the first things to be done. Holy Heck Almighty on a stick! If you are the type that likes politics and factions and intrigue, there is plenty of that. For those that aren't interested, there is plenty of other stuff to be interested in. The sheer breadth of lore and amount of RP options is staggering. It's so amazing to be a part of a writing team that covers everything from big-scale megalomania (nations and politics) to fine details (local superstitions and folk tales and nursery rhymes).
Our team are very excited with the possibilities of V2 and we think you'll all like it too!
10) More parasols.
If the toolset permits!
11) More barbarian stuff and more starting gold
There is an entire nation... nay two... no wait, maybe three... no more than that *tries to count, and loses count*...
Ahem. Plenty of opportunities for barbarians, for all races. Even Gnomes! We think you will really like our Feral Halflings and Berserker Gnomes. I've never seen anything like them before in any other world. They break the stereotypes, but are not so far removed from the familiar archetype as to be unplayable.
I am mostly serious about all of these!
*Flings a horde of red-eyed albino Berserker Gnomes at you*
FLY, my pretties! |
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Time IG vs Time in RL
Posted: 29 Nov 2007 07:20 AM |
My opinion only...
We cannot have a 1 to x mapping mapping of time in RL to time in Vives. We can't do it and be fair to every player.
How I've treated it in the past was to treat time as elastic. Things that happened IG yesterday RL time, happened yesterday IG time. Or, what happened IG yesterday RL time might have been a few hours or minutes IG time depending on where I left off.
But, as events move farther into the past, time stretches. Something that happened a two months ago (RL time) might be considered by me to be a year, or two or whatever seems appropriate at the time. Want exact dates and times? Won't happen from me, but I'll give you vague indications.
Also, I won't force my timesense on anyone else. If something I did with another PC happened a month ago, and they said it happened "3 weeks ago" then three weeks it is.
No need to too concerned about the time just as long as you have some vague agreement with the PCs you are involved in.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Time IG vs Time in RL
Posted: 29 Nov 2007 07:30 AM |
| So, with the team so strapped as it is at the moment, what can the casual player, with no knowledge of scripting and mapping, such as myself, do to help out? |
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Re: Time IG vs Time in RL
Posted: 29 Nov 2007 08:06 AM |
| suggest ideas. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Time and Other Suggestions
Posted: 29 Nov 2007 09:13 AM |
5) More deserted castles. Not enough in Vives1. Castles ARE fantasy. More are needed. I think everyone understands how critical this is.
That depends on how many types of castles there are in the toolset.
There won't be any abandoned castles in the initial release. The V2 world is really big, and we've really had to strip it down and cut back on what we will initially have (in terms of areas, quests, etc).
There may be abandoned castles in future releases, if the toolset permits it, and if we get enough builders.
We currently have 2 builders and about 3 scripters. 1 of those builders is super hyperactive. 1 of them is semi-active. All 3 of our scripters are buried under an avalanche of RL-ness.
The delay in the release of V2 comes from having only 2 builders. Ara will confirm that building a single area takes a very long time (about 20 tries per area, starting from scratch with each consecutive try). So we have been really, really, really picky about the design of each area, and which areas we will actually build. Every single area has to be special, and our building guidelines for V2 are very strict.
Actually.........
I'm thinking of putting something similar in for launchI hope to get it in, but time will tell :) |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Time IG vs Time in RL
Posted: 29 Nov 2007 09:15 AM |
So, with the team so strapped as it is at the moment, what can the casual player, with no knowledge of scripting and mapping, such as myself, do to help out?
We're short on generic interiors (think stores, different types of houses..... wealthy/poor/slum etc.) at the moment..... so if anyone wants to take a crack at building some, they're likely to end up in game.
If you want to, then catch me in irc or post on here and I'll suggest some things we need :)
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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