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Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 08:19 AM |
Rogues depend on stealth in all situations, they are not good combatants
Druids and Rangers (the smart ones) can use stealth effectivly in wooded areas
My whole peeve is with the god awfull trueseeing spell. Its horrible and was never even intended to give even a slight bonus to detecting invisible people. In PnP (how it was orrigionally intended) it could ONLY cut through invisibility and sanctuary spells. In NWN it does not even bypass concealment so please dont use that as an agruement, and they said its not a bug.
Please please consider this, i know people will complain because they dont want to have to use skill points in spot and listen, they want to be able to see hidden people freely without it costing them anything. Dont get me wrong, i am so glad you have chose to omit trueseeing from all items (if you put it somewhere i can findit), expecially helms. Because of the horrible opposition i will face from everyone that does not activly use the hide skill i am willing to compromise. I do not think that trueseeing should have a 100% chance to see hidden people. This is NOT a pvp world so you do not have to worry about anyone sneak attacking you, but somethimes people just want to move around without being seen and spy on people. It just adds alot of neat opportunitis. Some people abuse the pick pocket skill but i'm sure that they will eventually be caught and severly punished (maybee even banned if they have been warned about it). That is a whole separate issue tho and should be dealth with separatly, please do not bring that into the arguement. Also when you get it the durration is so long that you can have it up constantly.
My Compromise.
Change trueseeing from actually being trueseeing to being See invis + clarivoyance. That is a +10 to both spot and listen check and the ability to see invisible people. At that rate you will have an extremely good chance of seeing anyone using sneak that is of a somewhat low level even if you do not invest in the skill allong with seeing anyone using the invisibility spell. When rogues get up higher they will be able to beat out the checks of mages, clerics, and druids that have not invested in those skills but still have a chance of being seen by those who have put a moderate ammount of points into those skills. I'm talking about chance here, it is completly unfair to have trueseeing guarantee you can see hidden people. I think what i am suggesting is a fair change. Do you? If you respond please add some material to the conversation allong with your own proposed change. I have recounted removing the spell so please show the same courtesy and recount leaving it the way it is. I want to avoid a flame fest so please do not even respond unless you have something constructive to add to the subject. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 09:18 AM |
| I have to gree but the problem is with some sptots like ronins, we came to see that people with darkness and stealth where going there get the armor with fight the damm beasts, and that armor for example is for a hight level fighter not to be sold every reset without even fight the ronins. See my point? They need True Seeing.... |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 09:24 AM |
The offer of a bonus to spot and listen is one i've grown to like. There are other issues though, like how high hide and listen can be taken to, no idea what it's like in Vives (I haven't tried a stealthy character in Vives yet) but I know that in most circumstances there are more ways to raise your Hide and Silently skills than there are ways to improve your Spot and Listen skills.
Generally I'd agree with See Invis and Clairaudience. Unfortunately you can't change what monsters get with true seeing, so I suggest that if possible, creatures with true seeing get see invis instead and keen senses, or at least true seeing be a more limited ability. |
Eh? |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 10:53 AM |
Some monsters were given a random chance of having true seeing. This was done because some idiots were using invisibility as a means to go to places they never should have been, for purposes of looting and getting the exploration XP.
Bottom line: If players behave responsibly and not act like little powergaming munchkins (NOTE: I'm NOT saying that anybody on this thread falls into this category, so keep your flamethrowers in check) then there would be no need to use game mechanics to discourage them.
Also, I agree that True Seeing the way Bioware implemented it is broken. It should not be useful vs stealth. Also, I don't see why we need to give any bonus to spot and listen. If people want this ability, let them spend skill points on it. We rogues have to spend it on hide and move silently. And, as far as I know, there is no helm that gives true seeing in the game. If somebody has one or has seen one, they should notify a staff member so that it can be removed from the mod. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 11:20 AM |
Well, i was not realy talking about with monsters. I was talking about with other players. Monsters can just be edited to give them astronomical listen and move silently values. What i meant was i would like to sneak around and spy on people (other players) without them being able to just cast trueseeing for a 100% to find hidden people. Hide makes you move slow and has chances for normal people to find you. Its not a guaranteed thing and has those negatives for a reason, trueseeing imho breaks the skill.
And as far as the issue about people exploiting for stuff like the ronin armour, this is an application server, i'd like to think that the kind of people we want to play with are those that would have the restraint not to do that. If thats not the case, this might sound a little harsh, but make it an offense that come with a severe penalty (make a list of things that if you do you get banned, farming ronin armour could be one of them).
And Landru i dont want trueseeing to give any bonuses to spot or listen, i dont see any reason why it should. Its just that in the past i have noticed that unless you suggest it that way there is prety much a 0 chance of getting it implimented.
Also something i forgot to add is that this is an RP server and thus partying up with other people and interacting is encouraged greatly. If your group is worried about encountering hidden enemies the best way to get around that is to get a rouge in your group. They usually have high spot and listen skills so they intercept them for you. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 11:36 AM |
| AFIAK, there are only a handful of characters that have the ability to cast trueseeing. And in all my time here, I've never once seen someone walking around with trueseeing cast on themselves except in adventuring circumstances. Though I do agree Trueseeing in NWN sucks (from experience on other mods), and if it easy to change then great. Otherwise, I dont see the worry. |
~Alosynth
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 11:49 AM |
| someone already changed it the exact way i suggested. I can try and track them down and get it if you want me to. Alo its ok to say you dont have time to mess with it now, i'm sure theres one of us that can attempt to work something out. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 12:13 PM |
I myself have never liked true seeing. It bugs me. A lot. (I play about 20% on the low side of the rogues in Vives :P) If you could de-boost True Seeing, it would make rogues more appealing.
However, on the flip side of the coin, rogues are plenty appealing as it is. Lets say you come across a DC 45 trap. Who ya gonna call? Trap-busters! Same thing with locks and the like. But if you were to de-boost True-Seeing, it would make me very, very happy indeed. And it would really boost the need for people to invest in Spot and Listen. |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 01:49 PM |
| I'm not sure how the Rogue class could become more popular without eliminating all others. Frequently when I log into Vives there are 80% or greater Rogue-classed players listed on the server. Makes a person think it ought to be Den of Thieves instead of Vives. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 01:51 PM |
| Are you serious? I had no clue we had that many rogues. |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 01:59 PM |
| "I prefer the term 'forward-thinking opportunist.'" |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 02:03 PM |
ROTFLMAO
Well, if they were all as good-looking as Keimaini ... |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 03:00 PM |
I'm in a bit of a lazy mood, so y'all arn't getting the full argument :P
The short version is...
Put TS in NWN -Exactly- as it says in the PhB, or leave it as it is.
No half arsed "I think this would be nicer, because it's unfair on my class as it is...and since I don't play the class who can cast it, it doesn't matter that one of their spells has been neutered" |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 03:42 PM |
I'm in a bit of a lazy mood, so y'all arn't getting the full argument :P
The short version is...
Put TS in NWN -Exactly- as it says in the PhB, or leave it as it is.
No half arsed "I think this would be nicer, because it's unfair on my class as it is...and since I don't play the class who can cast it, it doesn't matter that one of their spells has been neutered"
Could just do it exactly the the 3.0 PnP rules say. Have it see sanctuary and invis and absolutly nothing else. I dont know why bioware goofed with it in the first place. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 03:49 PM |
Actually, that isn't what the 3.0 rules say. If you want to put the PnP version in, then you must gain the ability to;
See through normal and Mgical darkness
See invisiblity
See sancturary
See through all illusions
See Ethereal
See through displacement/magical concealment
And Clerics gain the ability too see any creature's alignment aura. Like an uber detect good/evil with detect Chaos/Law tacked on.
Now.. is that more inbalancing, or is the ability to see a hiding creature? I'd go with the former...
The spell in PnP is -more- powerful than it is in NWN. Bioware goofed with it because many of it's bonuses cannot be used in NWN. They added a new one to make up for it. And I'd say the one they gave isn't as uber as people make it out to be, given what it does in PnP.
Alternatively, stick an XP cost on the spell. Burns 25 XP should give people pause for thought before they overuse the spell. |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 03:59 PM |
I still fail to see the problem, but maybe that's just me... How many people run around with TS constantly on ? I've seen Fri'el and Gene use it and that's it...
There are no items that grant TS so there's no problem in that department either. So why suddenly start using an XP cost to cast this spell ? Because of 2 or 3 people who can see rogues? |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 04:05 PM |
| Actaully Fri'el ALWAYSE has it on. An XP penalty might actaully be a good alternative, people would then ONLY use it if they needed too. (btw i only said the 2 effects that would work in NWN, the rest reay are not viable). |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 04:17 PM |
| Hades: As Fri'el's player, I might be best placed to judge when Fri'el has TS cast. It is one of her battle buffs, which I use when I consider a battle with the potential to cause Fri'el worry to be imminent. It's not on my list of Perma-Buffs, which Fri'el wears wheneve she's out of town. And she certainly never has it cast when she's in a city, with the exception of when she thinks someone might want to sneak up on her, knows that someone just cast invisibility to follow her, or has just come into town from being out (And she always rests immediately afterwards to get rid of those unsightly spell effects :P) |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 04:18 PM |
| I think the current TS is fine as it is in vives. |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 05:51 PM |
I personally do not like it on monsters either. I'd be happier with a modified version, such as +10 to spot, able to see through all illusions, as well as invisibility and greater invisibility. It just does not sit well with me that it can see people who are sneaky, because that doesn't even make any sense to me. I mostly think this applies to monsters, but quite honestly I don't think its a matter of getting to places players should not be. If someone wants to solo in somewhere, grab an item and get out, more power to them for playing a more sneaky Indiana Jones for people. The minute they try to fight or do anything else (or have friends tag along) then they are screwed.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 11:16 PM |
Some monsters were given a random chance of having true seeing.
Actually, after having consulted the code, I have confirmed that this is no longer the case.
-Q |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 11:42 PM |
| Thanks Q. At one time I believe this was so, but apparently was changed. 'preciate the clarification. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 11:56 PM |
| Dont worry, didnt mean anything negative about it Barnas. Just someone said they never saw people using it unless they had a reason to. I was just giving them an example of someone that uses it all the time. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 27 Nov 2003 09:32 PM |
Hi- i'm new here and playing a rogue who has invested maximum points (at this stage) into hide and move silently, simply because its a highly useful skill and enables me to do what others cant. I have a few points- if these are just BS due to my inexperience, just say so :)
1. There are rats in the sewers under Port Royale that have True Seeing. Admittedly they're magic using rats that throw fire at you, but really? on a rat?
2. Can i get some clarification about something- someone mentioned something about Ronin's armor and using stealth to get to it without having a battle. i thought this was what rogues were generally relied on to do- achieve the end result while avoiding the battle- which i feel is encourage by your (marvellous i must say ) xp rewards system for ability use being higher than combat. So- is doing this a problem, or is it repeated doing of the same place/quest/item? Because aye- thats just lame.
3. Finally- are you using a custom treasure script for chests/containers? Because both me and my adventuring partner have picked up items that were waaay beyond our level of ability to use, in low level ares. e.g. An amulet of protection +3 and a Rapier +2. Fetched some nice coin to fund new armors though :)
Thanks all- Gilt'orn Mistblade |
"You're only young once, but you can be immature for the rest of your life"
-Ian Carlin |
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Re: Plead for rogues/druids/rangers and all their prc's
Posted: 28 Nov 2003 02:08 AM |
| It -is- still beta, and the treasure tables are being worked on. I got noc clue on 2, and on 1? Weeeeelll, not my favorite thing either, but, you get used to it. |
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