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Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 30 Jul 2006 10:28 AM |
Okay, this was just annoying.
I am exploring my way through the nebwood forest, getting to the spot where too-many-pixies-out-of-sight cast their confusion on me, with the night hag starting blast me.
Of course, I fail the will save, but I figured out, I'll still shoot on the hug, and hopefully will disrupt her spells long enough to snap out of the confusion, heal self, and run or kill her.
But noooooooo, my confused character wastes her arrows on the -listeners-.
By the time she snaps out of the confusion, she's dead.
And so, I got confused by creatures who are too far from the line of sight, and then shot a creature that doesn't exist, litteraly killing my chances to win. |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 30 Jul 2006 10:50 AM |
| It's not a server bug, it's the spell - confusion does just that, make your character confused. Your archer shoots, Ayn threw punches at thin air, and maybe Mages even cast spells at nothing? I'm not sure about the latter. |
Ayntherian Tîwele - Elven Monk, earnest student of Ki and the Martial Arts
His Diary - Updated at 26/8/2006 with ENTRY VII |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 30 Jul 2006 06:28 PM |
It's not a server bug, it's the spell - confusion does just that, make your character confused. Your archer shoots, Ayn threw punches at thin air, and maybe Mages even cast spells at nothing? I'm not sure about the latter.
No no; they cast spells alright.
But the crappy NwN engine (I think it's only NwN) makes the spellcaster either stand completely still, use potions with wild abandon, attempt to use any and all scrolls in the inventory, and of course, flail at the nearest living, moving thing.
There's also the rare event that a magic user will cast some spells - usually harmful ones - at the nearest, non-enemy target.
As for the topic at hand, Listeners get very annoying at times. I mean, very, very annoying. As in, 'Aww crap; I just stepped in something I -know- I don't want to smell because of some invisible wall just pushed me ten feet away,' annoying.
I can't count how many times I'd died (or been horribly inconvenienced) by stepping on a Trap or close to a very big creature intent on violating me because of a nearby Listener that was treading on my heels.
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 30 Jul 2006 10:25 PM |
Listeners are an unfortunate but necessary evil.
We expect they will be gone in nwn2.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 02:09 AM |
So what are they GOOD for? I mean can they help me write a more accurate post without having to use .rar screenshot-images to remember conversations we had in game? I mean that would be a HUGE memory and time saver!!!
Even better yet: do they produce text files we could cut and paste from to REALLY save time on posting? With so much going on in my life right now, it would be GREAT to have a quicker way to post since if I can't immediately post, I completely forget in 2 days all the juicy fun details that happened in game which would make a post fun and interesting to read. I hate wasting your time with stupid or boring posts that only state ((poorly at that)) what had happened in a session progressing a plotline that people may want to hear about. |
"Life is a short trip... travel light"
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PC Descriptions with Journal Links |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 02:28 AM |
So what are they GOOD for? I mean can they help me write a more accurate post without having to use .rar screenshot-images to remember conversations we had in game? I mean that would be a HUGE memory and time saver!!!
Even better yet: do they produce text files we could cut and paste from to REALLY save time on posting? With so much going on in my life right now, it would be GREAT to have a quicker way to post since if I can't immediately post, I completely forget in 2 days all the juicy fun details that happened in game which would make a post fun and interesting to read. I hate wasting your time with stupid or boring posts that only state ((poorly at that)) what had happened in a session progressing a plotline that people may want to hear about.
My understanding is that the only purpose they serve is giving the DM's an ear on what Players are doing.
Though, if they work for DM's, can't they be made to work for us regular folk as well? Chat logging, for example, would be very nice; since I can't get my computer to do it.
Also, can they be made ethereal or otherwise made to stop being a nuisance when it comes to moving? Last night I wasted several minutes trying to angle myself just right so that Roleplaying wouldn't be so awkward.
I mean, you can't really grab someone's wrists from ten feet away, now can you?
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 02:42 AM |
Yeah, or try backing up after bartering with someone... NOW i understand WHAT it is that is always FORCING my PCs to stay uncomfortably close after making an exchange of goods, etc.
Necessary evil... Fine. Now let's get em working FOR us!
"If they can't be beaten... perhaps they can be swayed to inadvertantly support our cause... yes, let them be slowly weakened by perverting their cause to meet OUR ends..." ((wicked maniacal laughter)) |
"Life is a short trip... travel light"
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PC Descriptions with Journal Links |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 03:15 AM |
The only reason you're noticing the presence of Listeners now is that they actually have a name. They have always been around, but they were unnamed (empty string for a name). Ever attacked thin air when you were Confused? You probably attacked a Listener, back before I put a visible name on them.
The purpose of the Listener is to capture text that is said, so it can then be used by various voice-activated scripts.
Whatever text the Listener hears can then be used to do things like:
- Emote
- Do Vives commands (/lounge, /pcinfo and all the rest)
- Languages
Imagine an invisible creature running around after you with a microphone in hand to record everything you say. It has to chase you everywhere. This is why voice commands sometimes don't work: the Listener got lost. Very common if jumping around areas, or DM-jumped to another area.
The Listener is set to a neutral faction: neutral to everything. Unfortunately, factions in NWN are awful. And that's an understatement. Any number of things could potentially bug the AI of the Listener and make it hostile.
The Listener has no AI except for its listening AI. However, some AI functions seem to be built-in to NWN, even if you disable all the AI for a creature.
The reason I gave Listeners a name (ie "Listener") is to make it selectable to DMs. Prior to this, it was not possible AT ALL for DMs to select Listeners in ANY WAY... which is VERY troublesome if you run into faction troubles and have to Limbo the Listener. There is no way to do it. Creatures with empty strings for names do not show up in the DM Chooser.
There should be no issues with bumping into Listeners. They are cutscene invisible. This means that they pass straight through things - including other creatures. They never shove anything around or bump into things.
As for how to log your sessions, there's a thread around somewhere (probably in Essential Information) that says how to do it. It has nothing to do with Listeners. |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 03:32 AM |
Well, it's good to know those little buggers actually serve a purpose.
There should be no issues with bumping into Listeners. They are cutscene invisible. This means that they pass straight through things - including other creatures. They never shove anything around or bump into things.
There's very often a big difference between what "should" be and what "is."
A foray with Ayntherian into those ruins beneath the Kobai nearly got me killed. Twice, if I remember correctly. I was only saved because Ayntherian had a lot of Healing kits.
I know which key is which, for my computer. I know what button makes my little Sorcerer move forward; which makes him strafe right; which one makes him turn left. I selected the 'Forward' key as I hugged the wall to the left side behind Ayntherian, to avoid traps. I was a good dozen paces behind him (cursed Monk speed!) and I got stuck on something. I kept the 'Forward' key depressed for a moment, thinking it was simply Ayn's Listener having trouble keeping up with him as well. Valethrion moves forward and to the right, and the next thing I know, I'm bleeding to death from an acid trap.
I get healed, I jump off the trapped area, and suddenly I see the blue 'Listener' tag floating where I was trying to get through.
Point being: they are not everything you think they are.
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 03:35 AM |
To clarify:
--> PC: [Talk] [I am saying something in Orcish]
--> Listener hears: [I am saying something in Orcish]
--> Script attached to Listener detects [, applies appropriate language cipher
--> Any PCs within hearing range who speak the language see PC says in Orcish: I am saying something in Orcish in their server window
--> Any PCs who don't speak the language but beat the relevant Lore check will see PC is speaking in Orcish but no translation
--> The PC then speaks the string again in Orcish, whatever that happens to be
Try using the languages without sending it to the DM channel. You will notice you say it twice.
All that /dm [Blabla] does is hide the initial text from the sight of PCs. DMs will still hear it. Any creature that can see you and is set to listen (eg a Listener, a Summon, a Familiar) will hear you.
PARTY and DM filters do not apply to NPCs. They can hear anything you send to those channels.
Other examples:
--> PC: [DM] *cheers*
--> Listener hears: *cheers*
--> Script detects *, looks for what emote it has to do
--> PC plays cheer animation
--> PC: /lounge
--> Listener hears: /lounge
--> Custom Vives script detects /, looks for what Vives command it has to execute
--> PC is jumped to the OOC Lounge (unless they are already there, in which case, it doesn't work)
Listeners are very CPU intensive. If a voice command doesn't work, chances are you sent it too fast. If /dispel does not work the first time and you know for a fact your Listener is present (you can test by typing /help and seeing if you get a list of voice commands; if you do, there's a Listener there) - wait 6 seconds then try again. |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 03:24 PM |
Ficcy, thanks for the explaination. It's enlightening to know what purpose they serve and only sheds more light on just how much work our programmers have put into making Vives an AWESOME place to play.
Are listeners the little targets that folks had seen following them on rare occasions? Just curious.
Also, is there a way that they could be blocking, on occasion? think of when you open a chest and your summon is right behind you. You are unable to back up, until the summon moves or gets shoved aside... Is it possible that this is what happens with listeners when you try to use the "backup" key (("s" on my keyboard)) and are unable to move; or maybe you do, but as soon as you try to move again ((usually using keys)) then the character "pops" a few inches away, as if it were sitting on something and got knocked off or were pushing a summon?
I don't have the programming or technical savvy to get in and figure it out.
NOW, if that is the case, can it get fixed? Or would it be one of those permanent unfixable bugs?
Oh yeah, and I use the DM channel to hide my original speach and other commands to enhance RP... is that a bother to the DMs???
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"Life is a short trip... travel light"
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PC Descriptions with Journal Links |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 03:59 PM |
...as soon as you try to move again ((usually using keys)) then the character "pops" a few inches away, as if it were sitting on something and got knocked off or were pushing a summon?
I always figured this for a lag issue. Or ping. Ping is a measure of lag, right? When you rubberband its because the server has corrected where you are on your little screen to reflect where the server actually says you are. Yeah? I dunno.
MP |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 04:52 PM |
Also, is there a way that they could be blocking, on occasion? think of when you open a chest and your summon is right behind you. You are unable to back up, until the summon moves or gets shoved aside... Is it possible that this is what happens with listeners when you try to use the "backup" key (("s" on my keyboard)) and are unable to move; or maybe you do, but as soon as you try to move again ((usually using keys)) then the character "pops" a few inches away, as if it were sitting on something and got knocked off or were pushing a summon?
Quotes Ficcy, yet AGAIN:
"There should be no issues with bumping into Listeners. They are cutscene invisible. This means that they pass straight through things - including other creatures. They never shove anything around or bump into things."
In other words, listeners act the same as a DM avitar does. It can occupy the same space as any NPC or PC, and pass through them as if they were air, no bumping or shoving involved.
Oh yeah, and I use the DM channel to hide my original speach and other commands to enhance RP... is that a bother to the DMs???
No, that is encouraged, because it would be unbelieavably hideous to everyone, to see your original text in brackets, and then the interpreted language right after it. (and would also kind of make lanugages pointless, since anyone could see the whole original text) |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 06:53 PM |
Quotes Ficcy, yet AGAIN:
"There should be no issues with bumping into Listeners. They are cutscene invisible. This means that they pass straight through things - including other creatures. They never shove anything around or bump into things."
In other words, listeners act the same as a DM avitar does. It can occupy the same space as any NPC or PC, and pass through them as if they were air, no bumping or shoving involved.
"There SHOULD be no issues..."
Right. Very reassuring.
You realize, of course, that pressing the 'Tab' button (or whatever) reveals the names and outlines Players and non-Players around an area, right? And that it works with Listeners, but not DM's, right? Meaning Listeners =/= DM's.
I mean, have you actually -seen- the Players pushing against air by trying to get through a Listener?
I could show you all what happens. Heck, a test: put a Listener next to a Player Character and ask the Player to move through the Listener; then remove the Listener after the Player is brushing against it.
If the Player walks through then, and -only then,- we'll all know that Listeners actually do affect Player movement.
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 07:36 PM |
| I found my Listener once and played with him as though he was an SD stalking me. I'm gonna call him Harvey. |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 31 Jul 2006 08:27 PM |
"There SHOULD be no issues..."
Right. Very reassuring.
You realize, of course, that pressing the 'Tab' button (or whatever) reveals the names and outlines Players and non-Players around an area, right? And that it works with Listeners, but not DM's, right? Meaning Listeners =/= DM's.
I mean, have you actually -seen- the Players pushing against air by trying to get through a Listener?
I could show you all what happens. Heck, a test: put a Listener next to a Player Character and ask the Player to move through the Listener; then remove the Listener after the Player is brushing against it.
If the Player walks through then, and -only then,- we'll all know that Listeners actually do affect Player movement.
</color>
Whoa.
Yes, I DO have a problem now...
I know that we all get frustrated, and that tone is often difficult to communicate on these posts, but we should ALL remember that Vives is a place that was created and is maintained by volunteers. The DMs assume a tremendous amount of work responsibility so that WE can run around and have fun. Please, let's afford them a certain amount of respect and try to keep the rhetoric slightly less inflammatory.
For the record, you can't highlight Listeners with the tab button every time, it's only when something abnormal happens, like the Listener turning hostile.
-VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 01 Aug 2006 12:32 AM |
I'm very aware that Vives is maintained by very skilled people that created this world only for the enjoyment of people from around the world, and I am glad that Vives exists.
I enjoy most everything about it all.
But if there's a problem that affects the quality of Vives, it should reported, correct? So that's what I did, and I'm not very thrilled at the response.
Forgive me if I seemed unreasonably cross.
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 03 Aug 2006 12:22 AM |
Let me just say... I LOVE ALL YOU PROGRAMMERS, AND THANK YOU!!!! I see things changing all the time in Vives, and that's what makes it so cool. If you get too busy with fixing stuff you never can add to the fun plot stuff we all enjoy, yet if you neglect the bugs... well, it bugs! So thank you all emmensely for ALL the work you do: creative and maintenance!!!
You keep an addict like me ADDICTED to YOUR WORLD!!!!
((I don't know if I should end with sappy bunny-eyes, or a wicked "muahahahahahaha!" ... oh well.)) |
"Life is a short trip... travel light"
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PC Descriptions with Journal Links |
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 03 Aug 2006 04:18 AM |
...as soon as you try to move again ((usually using keys)) then the character "pops" a few inches away, as if it were sitting on something and got knocked off or were pushing a summon?
I always figured this for a lag issue. Or ping. Ping is a measure of lag, right? When you rubberband its because the server has corrected where you are on your little screen to reflect where the server actually says you are. Yeah? I dunno.
MP
Correct. Rubberbanding and location corrections are the result of the server providing the client updated location information. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Killed by...Listeners?
Posted: 03 Aug 2006 04:24 AM |
There should be no issues with bumping into Listeners. They are cutscene invisible. This means that they pass straight through things - including other creatures. They never shove anything around or bump into things.
There's very often a big difference between what "should" be and what "is."
Then let me clarify it.
There are no issues with 'bumping' into listeners. Cutscene invisibility works as Ficcy describes it. The listeners cannot bump you, or move you, or trap you. Period.
There are other problems with listeners - increased server load, listeners getting lost, listeners going hostile - to name but a few, but the problem with movement is not one of them.
The listeners are a necessary evil. Their use of their functionality outweighs the problems they cause. I will do everything I can to ensure that they are *gone* from Vives2. Removal of the listeners is theoretically possible in Vives1, but impossible because of RL time constraints on my part.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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