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Blind fighters
Posted: 06 Jul 2006 10:12 PM |
Got this from another post and rather than hijack the thread...
Think about it. How many creatures would not be thwarted by invisibility?
Bats have echolocation. Most animals actually "see" with their noses; many creatures sense heat signatures and then there are some that detect vibrations in the ground or air.
Why would undead be tricked by invisibility? They don't actually have eyes do they? I figure they detect a life force as though they were "seeing" it. Same with elementals.
The only reason we prize invisibility as a concept is because it's useful against humans (in RL) or generally against the few sight dependent humanoids IG. Seems kind of crazy but I bet one could make the case that only humanoids are effectively tricked by invisibility as all fantasy creatures probably have a RL relative we could correlate its modus operandi to. ie hydra - monitor lizard, ettercap - spider, displacer beast - panther, shambling mound - Spanish moss; and most RL creatures do not have good eyesight.
Anybody know about birds?
Anyway, just a random interesting thought to share |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 06 Jul 2006 10:55 PM |
HEY! Don't go about trying to mess up my only defense!
Actually in Vives there are a lot of creatures that have true seeing. Like stingers. What is up with that? Do they have tremorsense or something?
And those leachwalkers. They see right through invis too! dang bastards. I hate those walking bombs.
---
So anyway, I see your point, but I believe visual cues are key for most predators once the creature comes into striking range. The way I think of invisibility is that it blocks all wavelengths of light. This counts heat as well BTW!
I got some of this in physical anthropology and evolutionary biology classes. In short, visual information is fast information, and good eyesight allows it to be very precise. That is why so many hunter species have well developed eyesight. It is especially important for birds, and most mammals.
here's some anecdotes on this:
For most creatures that you can think of as a threat to humans, invisibility would be a key defense. Almost all the mammals that can eat us - even those that have poor eyesight - depend on their eyesight when it comes to the kill. Thats why human hunters have good HIDE and SNEAK skills.
This does change when you start dealing with things like snakes. But what do snakes use? Primarily scent, and heat sensing - although again their eyes are important as well. A blind rattlesnake could judge your distance by sensing your heat and strike properly. Now ... what is heat but a wavelength of light? Alright so with magic we've got that somewhat covered.
Birds? Highly highly visual.
Bats do have echolocation, yes. And this is sufficient to hunt with.
Flies can sense that fly swatter with some very sensitive hairs that can sense the tension of air. Our inner ear does this too, but not even to 1/100 th of this power.
Worker ants are VERY scent oriented. But what about soldier ants? |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 06 Jul 2006 11:13 PM |
Interesting take on invisibility. As an illusion spell I always considered invisibility to be more or less a painting of what is behind the invisible person with what is behind them, a trick of the viewer's mind to cover the subject with a recalled memory of those elements behind it.
But that's all a semantic DM discussion because we have no actual base for how magic works.
But your points about animals are all really excellent. No wonder you're such a good druid. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 06 Jul 2006 11:33 PM |
RE: Undead, there's a 1970s Italian zombie movie called "Tombs of the Blind Dead" or "Night of the Blind Dead" that comes with this warning: They can hear your heartbeat!
The movie zombies are Templars who were blinded and put to death outside a small town in Italy. Indeed blind, they were directionless when they first arose, they moved slowly and listened, drawn to the slightest sound the way Romero's living dead are drawn by noise. It was really effective.
As a junkie for this genre I'm totally tantalized and disturbed at the new lore surrounding the Devoured. I'm so glad Zubeida is looking into it so I can benefit from the posts on said topic! Its really about the creepiest thing this server has rendered vis-a-vis supernatural horror. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 12:45 AM |
There's actually no reason to think that an invisibility spell would affect all wavelengths of the EMS - just because something will block one form of EM radiation doesn't mean it blocks everything: visible light penetrates a pane of glass, but you can't get sunburned through it.
Also, from a magical theory standpoint, an invisibility spell is an illusion spell, not an abjuration spell - so its success would depend upon the senses of those trying to pierce the illusion, rather than a physics-based shielding of radiation.
Speaking as someone who did completely without magic powers for three RL months, and whose complement of powers even now doesn't include invisibility, stop whining.  Be glad that it works against some things!
-VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 12:56 AM |
Perhaps if invisiblity is not simply a bending of light, but rather a phase displacement feild...
Concider that to be invisible, there are several "real world" examples. Black holes, for example. Invisible in the sense that we cannot see them directly, only infer that they are present by detecting their "waste" signature, i.e. gamma rays. If one were to apply Hawkian physics to a single individual through magic (the only way they'd survive), one might assume that the inbisibility spell places a shell of high intensity gravity around the being, thus bending light around them. The effect would be something akin to the Predator look when cloaked, I'm thinking. Would this effect other sense? Likely not tactile sensations, and I can't vouch for anything supernatural. Echolocation would probably still work, but I don't think smell would. *ponders*
Another possibility is that invisibility can be achieved through temporal displacement, if only by some micro-micro-micro "unit" of time. Since we can only perceive with our senses that which exists in the "now", then anything that goes beyond that would require extra-sensory perception. Because spacetime is a singular continuum, the person rendered out of phase with the time stream is also displaced from spacial location, and cannot therefor be seen, smelled, or touched. Again, I can't vouch for anything supernatural, though it seems to me that the undead - being, you know... deadish... - likely don't give a crap about time, as they have no concept of it and, as beings that essentially exist off of the power of their own immortal souls, can likely experience multi-phasal spacetime, anyway. Maybe that's why they move so slowly...hmmm...
The third possibility is that it's simply an illusion that somehow effects whoever looks in that person's direction. |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 01:09 AM |
one might assume that the inbisibility spell places a shell of high intensity gravity around the being, thus bending light around them.
Another possibility is that invisibility can be achieved through temporal displacement, if only by some micro-micro-micro "unit" of time.
The third possibility is that it's simply an illusion that somehow effects whoever looks in that person's direction.
The problem with #1 is that there are other consequences of a high gravity field, such as x-ray and plasma jet emission, bending of space, and the annoying propensity for all matter surrounding you to accelerate towards you at high speeds, spaghettify, and create an accretion disk around you.
The problem with #2 is that, if you were temporally displaced (even for a microsecond), not only would you be out of phase with the waves of light that people use to detect you with their eyes, you would be out of phase with the entire rest of the universe, which means that you couldn't affect matter, couldn't be heard, etc. You could even be rendered inert as far as velocity goes, which means the planet would spin away without you at about 63,000 miles an hour, depending on how close the orbital velocity of Vives is to that of the earth.
I vote for #3, especially since the spell is in the school of illusion. :)
(We also should all remember that we're playing in a world fundamentally different from our own, including in matters of physics - trying to reason through these things is an exercise in futility. When it comes down to it, we all just have to agree that things work the way they do because that's the way the DMs say it works.)
-VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 01:21 AM |
| Mirrors and hologram projectors! Cora would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for those meddling kids and their dang dog! |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 01:41 AM |
I like the last possibility as it cordones off the effects to the experience of the viewer without altering temporal variables or creating gravity wells that should have collateral effects. If we accept the nature of the school it belongs, that being illusion, I expect that it shares some common qualities with other illusions.
My explanation:
Illusions through the generations of D&D editions has required a relational experience with the content of any illusion for it to be effective. I'm imagining the magic itself creating suggestive cues that sparks a memory in the subject and that memory takes shape before them. The experience is entirely subjective.
Invisibility is an easy illusion because it creates the impression that what is behind the recipient of the spell covers them. This is easy because the viewer most likely has already experienced the environment and the magical cue creates a gestalt impression wherein the spell recipient is essentially between the frames of the "story" in the subject's mind. But I assume the cues themselves are visual. I suppose they don't have to be? They could be functions of awareness rather than the physical eye, so beings like skeletal undead with no physical eyes are tricked through their awareness, however they can be aware, rather than their senses. Though this suggests it would be complete coverage: auditory, olfactory, tactile...bother.
Anyway, this is fun. And Marlena, those possibilities were incredible. I actually like those explanations for some abjurations and possibly alterations.
*goes to watch Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail...again* |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 03:32 AM |
Perhaps if invisiblity is not simply a bending of light, but rather a phase displacement feild...
Concider that to be invisible, there are several "real world" examples. Black holes, for example. Invisible in the sense that we cannot see them directly, only infer that they are present by detecting their "waste" signature, i.e. gamma rays. If one were to apply Hawkian physics to a single individual through magic (the only way they'd survive), one might assume that the inbisibility spell places a shell of high intensity gravity around the being, thus bending light around them. The effect would be something akin to the Predator look when cloaked, I'm thinking. Would this effect other sense? Likely not tactile sensations, and I can't vouch for anything supernatural. Echolocation would probably still work, but I don't think smell would. *ponders*
Another possibility is that invisibility can be achieved through temporal displacement, if only by some micro-micro-micro "unit" of time. Since we can only perceive with our senses that which exists in the "now", then anything that goes beyond that would require extra-sensory perception. Because spacetime is a singular continuum, the person rendered out of phase with the time stream is also displaced from spacial location, and cannot therefor be seen, smelled, or touched. Again, I can't vouch for anything supernatural, though it seems to me that the undead - being, you know... deadish... - likely don't give a crap about time, as they have no concept of it and, as beings that essentially exist off of the power of their own immortal souls, can likely experience multi-phasal spacetime, anyway. Maybe that's why they move so slowly...hmmm...
The third possibility is that it's simply an illusion that somehow effects whoever looks in that person's direction.
- Its magic, it wouldnt really be magic if it could be explained :P |
~ Nay'Finn |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 04:23 AM |
I just wanna say that...
It's unfair that NPCs with sharp ears can "Hear" invisible people (See Invisibility) while us who invest in "Listen" can only if they're a meter away! :P |
Ayntherian Tîwele - Elven Monk, earnest student of Ki and the Martial Arts
His Diary - Updated at 26/8/2006 with ENTRY VII |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 06:01 AM |
Mirrors and hologram projectors!
Yes..! Finally someone who understands the true secrets of magic. I do hope you'll not end up in trouble with the mage towers for giving it out puplicly though. *NodNod* |
"You can own the earth and still, all you own is earth until, you can sing with all the voices of the wind." |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 09:19 AM |
First of all, hats off to Marlena for bringing Stephen Hawking and blackholes into the equation. <[many threes].
Second (and much closer to home), the Invisibility spell affects only perception. I seem to remember reading somewhere that player(s) under the Invisibility effect are still detectable without using spells.
For instance, footsteps still make a sound - especially in a narrow cave. Some animals can pick up on that; especially if they're the heavy, ringing footfalls of a Paladin in Heavy Armor.
But a lot of times (okay, not as often as some of us would like), a Paladin can make a Move Silently check, even when clanking around incessantly. So, in theory (and with truckload of luck), an army of Duergar could march through said narrow cave while under the effect of an Invisibility spell and remain undetected.
To counter-act that (and I assume very heavily, here), the DM's/Designers decided to say, "Aww hell with it. No way someone could move around completely silent in this cave. Give these things See Invisibility."
Or, in Cora's case: "Hmm...Bats use ultrasonic bursts of sound to discern location - for both themselves and their prey. And, since bats -do- use these bursts fairly frequently, we may as well give them See Invisibility. It makes sense." |
WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 10:06 AM |
| *rubs temples* Wow hats off to you guys. I feel like my head is going to explode. |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 11:54 AM |
No fair, Vince. I like me quackish, non-factual theories! It's magic, I tell you!
Eh. I just like trying to find "rational" explanations for magic. My personal belief on magic being that it's merely a way to alter reality according to actual physical laws, just laws we don't yet know about. I mean, honestly, what does science know? Like, 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of what's actually real?
Anything - ANYTHING - is possible.
But yeah... illusion... I don't know. I guess the temporal displacement thing works better for Ghostly Visage. Of course, you'd be able to walk through "solid" objects, at that point, and I think it's a shame that GV doesn't grant that ability. All thieves would be bards. It'd be a dirt poor but very musical world... |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 12:30 PM |
I think for me the issue is that realism has to be upheld. What happened before has to happen again and when I get questions about bats and echolocation when I DM my PnP game by the rules lawyer at the table I have to decide by what principles the magic actually works. Once I do that I start having to apply it correctly across the board based upon the decision.
Most fantasy is derived from our RL one. It makes world development easy since we already have a good (albeit still being discovered) schema. But even when you make up stuff, it still has to be consistent and you have to create reasons why something works here but not over there. It's just good storytelling.
And it is a lot of fun. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 01:00 PM |
I always considered Invisibility to be just that, invisibility. Monsters can still hear you, and they can still smell you. That's why bats can't be fooled by invisiblity. I never realized why people try to sneak around powerful enemies by casting Invisibility and then sprint around them, it just makes no sense. You should try to be as silent as possible, too.
I also think Invisiblity completely strips every creature from the ability to see you, no matter how they do it. I mean, it will also hide your body warmth from snakes, so that they can't see you (although they can still smell you). But again, taking bats for example, who don't actually see, but rather hear - such creatures are still unaffected.
Which reminds me... a Smell skill would be a nice addition.
PS: Why do leechwalkers have True Sight anyway? They're just fat people made of leeches. |
AKA Adept
Ben Bright: portrait, description (02/17/07) |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 01:15 PM |
PS: Why do leechwalkers have True Sight anyway? They're just fat people made of leeches.
The anatomy of a leech - Sensory organs on the head and body surface enable a leech to detect changes in light intensity, temperature, and vibration. Chemical receptors on the head provide a sense of smell and there may be one or more pairs of eyes.
So if we avoid the light intensity and temperature sensing, I'd say that this makes them more or less like the stingers who feel the vibrations that you make as you walk.
p.s. For fat people made of leeches.... why can't I ever outrun the dang critters???? |
"Mistakes have been made, others will be blamed..." |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 01:17 PM |
But as such, Axon, you've only partially redefined visibility.
Why would invisibility dampen a heat signature but not a smell signature? If I started splitting hairs like that my players would begin demanding explanations for my rationale. It can't be an arbitrary "because I said so" or my world would lack cohesion and my players won't respect my methods.
Generally speaking, I agree with you that invisibility only hampers vision, but only vision, not total awareness, but in my estimation I'm beginning to think that would really cripple the invisibility spell. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 01:48 PM |
No, no, no…
Look here, it’s pretty simple, and it’s got nothing to do with illusions, blackholes, heat signatures, displacements, or accretion disks (accretion disks? Accretion disks!?!? Woo-hoo, party at VK’s place and we’ll talk about accretion disks!!).
When you cast the spell, the sub-dynamic penumbra of the body’s neo-retro-geo-biometric aura simply becomes subenervated below the AFP level of most organization’s spectral phantamasghorical fields. Given the fluctuating dual-circadian capacity upon which most conscious entities operate, and despite the increasing pandemical phenomenon vis a vis the digurtating, multi-ethrytical sphinctorial engorgements, I think most scientists would agree that the micro-nigrescent non-illuminations are fairly common and thus easily explainable.
Q.E.D., e pluribus unum...
I.E., Duhhh!
…at least, that’s what the gnomes tell me…..
P.S. Love ya, VK! Let’s have Ced and Ulalume talk more about accretion disks soon! ;) |
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for...
-- Ernest Hemingway |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 01:51 PM |
No, no, no…
Look here, it’s pretty simple, and it’s got nothing to do with illusions, blackholes, heat signatures, displacements, or accretion disks (accretion disks? Accretion disks!?!? Woo-hoo, party at VK’s place and we’ll talk about accretion disks!!).
When you cast the spell, the sub-dynamic penumbra of the body’s neo-retro-geo-biometric aura simply becomes subenervated below the AFP level of most organization’s spectral phantamasghorical fields. Given the fluctuating dual-circadian capacity upon which most conscious entities operate, and despite the increasing pandemical phenomenon vis a vis the digurtating, multi-ethrytical sphinctorial engorgements, I think most scientists would agree that the micro-nigrescent non-illuminations are fairly common and thus easily explainable.
Q.E.D., e pluribus unum...
I.E., Duhhh!
…at least, that’s what the gnomes tell me…..
P.S. Love ya, VK! Let’s have Ced and Ulalume talk more about accretion disks soon! ;)
You've watched too much Star Trek, Imperious. Anyway, everyone knows that all you have to do is run a reverse tachyion beam through the deflector array to expose someone with invisiblity cast... |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 01:59 PM |
Damnit, Mykal, I'm a RP'er, not a -----
Oh, nevermind..... |
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for...
-- Ernest Hemingway |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 02:13 PM |
| Khaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!!! |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 02:30 PM |
Eh. I just like trying to find "rational" explanations for magic. My personal belief on magic being that it's merely a way to alter reality according to actual physical laws, just laws we don't yet know about.
Have you read the Incarnations of Immortality series (On a Pale Horse, With a Tangled Skein, etc.) by Piers Anthony? I think he does an amazing job of juxtaposing theoretical physics and magic.
Sounds like the spell you're looking for is wraithform - one of the coolest spells ever devised. I had a spy wizard character in PnP who would use wraithform, fly, invisibility, and non-detection and cruise around wherever he wanted to go. :)
That Star Trek twist was AWESOME! I love you guys!
(Don't forget to recharge the dilithium crystals by pointing the phasers at them, so we can get out of here on impulse power.)
-VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: blind fighters
Posted: 07 Jul 2006 02:37 PM |
*in a whisper*
We've secretly replaced this photon engine's dylithium crystals with Folger's flavor crystals! Let's see if they notice the difference...
Imperius: love ya, babes. That was hilarious. |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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