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Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 17 Jul 2005 03:36 PM |
SO I have just returned from a long away journey, and I love the fresh look of the world. After playing for a week or two, I have some ideas that im sure someone else has stated or thought of but I want to also put them here.
First, upon returning I have noticed a few things, We still do not get more than ten to fifteen people at a time playing. This is I believe our biggest problem. Now I may just be kicking a dead horse here, but I love this world, but it is really boring to play alone for hours on end. And if noone is around, rp is insignificant.
In my eyes, our biggest difficiency is a lack of seperation between classes and alignments.
Is there any way to create a hak that will create guards and npcs to react when certain people come through. Midor guards keeping away elves, or city guards chasing away thieves, or even a criminal being jailed for crimes within the city gates. If there was some kind of system installed so that within the city gates the guards truly protect the citizens, or stores close between midnight and 7am, or such.
I guess what I am getting at is more npc interaction, since we will always kinda have a lack of players, lets get the npc's more involved. Guards that chase down and jail/kill/chase away criminals within city walls. NPC's who actually become part of the story by moving around, maybe even joining you for a short stint. More quests, even just low ability ones that involve traveling far distances to attain something for someone.
My thought is that someday we can have a world where the criminals (evils) are taking a greater chance by robbing that person, or killing that npc, which would then create a more diverse alignment segregation. Maybe even a perma red situation for serious criminals, which eliminates their entrance inside city gates.
All i know is, im still seeing chaotic players wiht lawful characters, and such because of a lack of people to join, so maybe we can come up with some ideas that would bring a new flavor to vives, creating more people to join and more possibilites for the RP exp and such. |
So a cleric, a ranger, and a thief walk into a bar, which one am I?
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 17 Jul 2005 04:31 PM |
Unfortunately, that sort of scripting is very time-intensive, and there's a lot of scripting and building already going on behind the scenes that is both a combination of churning out new material and fixing old problems. All the new material is important as it is directly related to upcoming DM quests. And all the fixing of problems is important because it means less show-stopping bugs to frustrate players.
We have a grand total of one and a half scripters for the entirety of Vives, the one is Paul and the man doesn't sleep as it is (don't let him tell you otherwise) and the half is me, and I'm juggling building things to set deadlines for DM events and fixing minor things that I know I can handle.
The other problem too is that we are very close to the object limit, and with all the new stuff that is constantly streaming in, the last thing we need are extraneous NPCs that would require lots of time to do up dialogues/quest/AI for.
That having been said, the building team is always open to ideas, and if people send us material, we'll look it over and do our best to incorporate it into the world. If it's a quest, I do ask that you write up the journal entries as well, as I am hoping to switch over to a more reliable journal-driven static quest system. There are new static quests coming in, and I've also stuck my hand up to try and get the current ones fixed and finished once and for all, but that's something that will take time. Specifically, that's time that can be measured somewhere in the months, not days or weeks.
Also, DM coverage is pretty good at this stage, I can think of 3 off the top of my head that are usually lurking (Ranger, GrimJester, Whisper), and I reckon a DM-possessed NPC beats a scripted one any day.
So, in my opinion, the solution to the problem isn't that we need more and smarter NPCs - it's that we need more players! Players don't require scripting, add a lot more to the world than NPCs ever could, and don't increase the dreaded object count. Plus, it takes less time and effort to post on the Bio Boards and vote at NWVault and NWConnections than it does to create/script/make dialogue for a single NPC. In the time it takes to make a new NPC and add a dialogue and a quest to them, we could have recruited thirty more players! :)
In conclusion, I reckon that the biggest deficiency is actually a lack of players, and that's easier to fix than Bioware's AI. |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 22 Jul 2005 12:07 PM |
Actually, a dm run NPC is always better!! Those have been the times when I have actually seen a bit of DM intervention.
As I state this, I will say that I am not on as much as some people are. Also I live on the west coast, so a majority of my play time is late night, 9pm for me, which means most people are gone.
You know I just love the server and I am constantly trying to get more people to join, because hunting by yourself is very dangerous, and really horrid when you die alone!!
As for the quests, I wrote a ton of them a while back when I was originally playing, I can put those in if you like, as long as someone shows me how. |
So a cleric, a ranger, and a thief walk into a bar, which one am I?
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 22 Jul 2005 01:22 PM |
So, in my opinion, the solution to the problem isn't that we need more and smarter NPCs - it's that we need more players!Players don't require scripting, add a lot more to the world than NPCs ever could, and don't increase the dreaded object count. Plus, it takes less time and effort to post on the Bio Boards and vote at NWVault and NWConnections than it does to create/script/make dialogue for a single NPC. In the time it takes to make a new NPC and add a dialogue and a quest to them, we could have recruited thirty more players! :)
In conclusion, I reckon that the biggest deficiency is actually a lack of players, and that's easier to fix than Bioware's AI.
Just had to say how much I totally agree with Fictrix here. She is spot on. It is amazing the number of applications that state one of the above as how new players found us. The Bio boards PW forums is the area I know best. I check it fairly regularly. Hardly a day goes by without a new "looking for a PW" post.
Now a lot of people are looking for things that Vives does not, and will not ever offer. But every now and then someone who would probably love playing here posts. And hardly ever gets a reply from people who do play here. Some PWs have players that are very active on that forum, and really try to recruit for the PWs they love. Vives doesnt have any at the moment unfortunately, beyond Ara, myself or other DMs trying to advertise the world.
People that read that forum regularly a lot more likely to listen to players, then admittedly very biased "staff" members like myself! And if it is always the same people posting about Vives, again it has less impact.
So yes, we need new blood...literally! And if you want to help get players in, shout to the heavens about Vives. This link could do with a bump...
Vives Advert
Or alternately, start your own thread about what you think of Vives. Or just pop onto the forums every now and then (Ficcie's Bio Boards link) and look for any PW posts to reply to.
Also votes, and accompanying comments on the Vault always welcome, as per Ficcie's other link.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 23 Jul 2005 05:05 PM |
personally i feel that a lot of people dont give the place enough time when they first join.
One of the reasons i feel for this is that although vives has some awesome new areas , they are hard to find, infact impossible to get to for a level 1 to 3 chr.
People come and the into is always going to impress.
The four winds also is chock full off stuff (very good)
But...and i hope i dont upset anyone here .
You leave the inn and.......... The Northern highway is crap.
North of here (Standing stones) you could make it using the original toolset in 10 minutes.
East (Buckshire Trading post) looking very tired , you find it on any two bit server
South of the Inn Ok but in need of a revamp , nothing that people havnt seen before here either.
West (port royale outskirts) very good
Buckshire and Port Royale are great
But the whole PR Buckshire loop , in my opinion lets the server down
And lets face it if you start reading a book and arent inspired by the first chapter you often dont persevere.
As ive said some of the new areas are awesome..
But the first chapter ( which is what the PR, Buckshire loop is) , is, in my opinion, not going to grab newbies by the balls anywhere near hard enough.
Anyone looking for a new server is going to try a few out and the one that really grabs there attention from the word go is likely to succeed.
Come on people if youre looking to make a good impression to new players , then most of the old seen it before opening areas need a major overhaul.
Davesincerelyspokenone |
If you catch a butterfly.
You can either keep it and watch it die.
Or let it go and watch it fly away.
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 23 Jul 2005 05:50 PM |
Comparing the rest of the world to the area's you're talking about I'll agree with your asesment, however I respectfully dissagree with your solution for two reasons.
1) as one who stuck with the game I have been very happy with how every new area I went to got better and better as I progressed, maybe it's from my days playing Legend of Zelda but to me that formula works as far as keeping those who do stay happy :)
2) Do we really want players who are all about the graphics and the action? we are a RP intensive server, I say starting slow and boring those who wouldn't fit in anyway is a smart move *shrugs* that's just my 2 cp tho |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 23 Jul 2005 08:43 PM |
Everytime I come back to Vives, I play for a bit and then I get sick of it for one reason. I HATE spending the majority of my time, walking. I log into Vives for one reason these days... to roleplay. If there are a few people IG I'll log in as long as I can get to them within 10 minutes. This means they have to be somewhere near PR or Buckshire. If they're not, I don't even bother to log in.
I know I've mentioned this before, but we need a better transport system. Screw the bloody realism and get us a dang instant travel between major locations... please. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 23 Jul 2005 09:57 PM |
The last few posts make interesting points--I'd like to add that these boards also do important work in keeping the right players in Vives. I say that though the idea that some players belong here and some don't can probably be overemphasized. If this PW is so exceptional, then there probably aren't many who come as a good fit; rather they arrive w/ a small clue and their play is channeled through DM and PC encouragement. Its like that with every RPG w/ a big group of players. More players often means more talent, rather than more goofballs who don't really fit in.
Being a home-grown mod, I never expected Vives to be perfect and I could ignore what wasn't spectacular. That also goes for uncompleted missions, like finding the mayor of Buckshire, etc. What grabbed me right away, maybe because I've enjoyed RP on message boards in the past, is this web site. In every way that the mod is rough, this site is very very smooth.
I don't know enough about writing either to say that making a smooth website is easier than making a nice play environment for NWN, and anyway its not relevant. Between the web site, the players handbook (a tad outdated, but new folks don't know that!), and the world, you folks made a great impression on me. There are other bigger/more finished PWs that failed to hold my attention.
Then again, I don't go back very far playing NWN online.
And yeah, the shortest route to Vives is through the forums named above (*tries to recall record for boosting Vives on those sites...*). |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 24 Jul 2005 05:16 AM |
It is a RP intensive server, but the first impression certainly is as renter said the forum, and if you join the server the graphics and details. That is what made me stay and try a little more. You get a good feeling for the people reading the forums. When you start playing you´re usually running around alone for some time, so the nice areas are quite helpful to convince a player of staying for more than the try-out period.
I wouldn´t say the Northern Highway looks like complete crap though. Perhaps a little out of date compared to the new areas, but well...
I´d love to have a little change to the travel system though, too. When the Paws Kusin/Jusin/whatever was offering all four destinations...oh the joy. Or if the horses would go back to the Northern Highway. Especially from Ferein or near Ferein...from my mage´s home it takes 6 transitions to the ship, if you don´t get it you can make that about 13 until you reach the great plains to decide how to go on from there. (Reason why I have always 2 extended hastes ready...) Or what about a Kusin in Icy Vale, peeps living there need to get either to Ferein, Midor, or even Brandibuck->Ladriel. And since our midoran friends don´t let anyone in their city for many that route is not an option. |
Portraits: zip.rar
PRAISE HECK, FOR HIS NAME IS HECK, AND JUST HECK! |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 25 Jul 2005 02:36 AM |
Uh...hi....I'm actually one who played on Vives for a while before trying out and moving on to a couple of other PWs. Please note that I consider myself very much a RPer...I might have sucked at it but I've never had much of an interest in power gaming.
Let me say that I really enjoyed Vives. Great RP, a great setting, good storyline. etc. The one and only problem I had with it:
Not enough people...for me, at least...and more precisely, not enough other characters near my character's level (which if I recall was 6).
When I played on Vives, I ran into some great people but it seemed too often that there were not very many people on and/or I was in an area by myself and/or the other characters on were exceedingly high level and far away in places I had never been. I don't mind RPing with higher level characters, but when I gain experience, I want to be with characters of approximately the same level so no one is leechign off of the others.
Maybe it was this whole "poisoning of Ferein" thing and people playing their more powerful characters, but for a while I just could never find anyone. (again, this is just my experience...I'm sure there were some out there playing lower level characters...perhaps just my bad luck I didn't run into them...)
I now play on a world that typically has a lot of people, and enough good RPers that I can ignore the occasional jerk and idiots (although to be fair, they're pretty rare). But in terms of quality, I don't really think it's got anything on Vives.
So, IMHO, I wouldn't worry so much about certain places or road system so much...maybe a few more people? And I think I first found out about Vives through the NWN Vault news or what-not, so that stuff does work! |
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for...
-- Ernest Hemingway |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 25 Jul 2005 04:47 AM |
My first issue with Vives was the same as the problem Imperious mentioned. Relative to other PWs I've seen, Vives is a small community - even smaller when it comes to its presence IG.
There are long periods, dare I say most of the time, when Vives is almost empty, with only a three players, give or take, that are playing at that moment. When I go into a multiplayer game, I do it so I can play the game with other people, and I go way when there arent any other people. I figure I'm not the only one who does that.
When there are a lot of people in Vives these days, its either when I'm not or cant be around, or at some sort of event. While events like that are a great thing on their own, they dont compensate for the other dull moments in which Vives is nearly void of players. Also, most of the time these events are not available to the new players, even if they are open to all classes/levels/races/alignments/whatever - either because of timezone differences, or unfamiliarity with the server, or any other reason you can think of.
Its not something that can be fixed. Sadly even PDBot cant script new players. All we can do is advertise and hope that the newcommers will get to experience the better things of Vives, and will stay because of them.
Personally, my recent absence from Vives is because of the player shortage. I come into Vives to RP with others, and I only wish there would be more oppritunities for me to do so, without having to chase some other player or two via the player stone until we "accidentally" meet, and then desperately try to come up with something. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 25 Jul 2005 05:46 AM |
I totally agree and sympathise with what both WA and Imperious say. The only thing I can really say in reply is to avoid playing for these reasons only contributes to the problem. Though totally understand why you would feel this way.
What Vives needs more than anything is for good rp'ers to be logged IG, and rp'ing. And for them to make an effort to "meet and greet" new chars also helps a lot, especially if possible with one of your lower level chars.
The best things the players can do to help Vives, is play, and not be afraid to log in from time to time at quiet times. Otherwise we get situations where 4 or 5 players arent playing because no one else is logged in.
Also, it really helps if you shout to the heavens about Vives. The more people you let know about Vives, the more we are likely to get new players.
Thanks to those people who have posted on the bio thread. And please, keep checking back, reply to threads from people who sound like a good fit for Vives, and just let people know about Vives. This is one of the things that players can do for the server better than DMs can.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 25 Jul 2005 08:01 AM |
I agree Sirac. I've been logging in with Cantor whenever I sit down to read or check the forums and just alt-tab every now and again to see if anybody's shown up at my shop. But if we fix annoying things like the travel system, then people are much more likely to log in and travel across the world for a little RP.
Also, and this was mentioned by Imperious and reminded me of something I've been meaning to mention for a while now.
Back... eons ago now... we were debating wether or not to allow players to progress beyond level 20. At that time, it was a fairly moot point because the experience gain at level 20 was so small that combined with the automatic loss of a level upon respawn, virtually guaranteed that even if anybody DID manage to get to level 21 or.. wonder of wonders.. 22 they'd lose them shortly afterwards. However, somewhere along the way in one of my absences, xp suddenly became very easy to gain at level 20+ Look what we have now. Luther is a god.
Not only that, but there are others heading for godhood too. This was the stuff of nightmares back when we were debating this issue. I must say I'm partly to blame, for back then I never thought this eventuality would become possible. I thought it simply to be the product of a paranoid imagination. Opps. :)
The level difference is intimidating for new players. If I could play my utopia PW, I'd probably like the levels capped at 10, with the ability to progress up to an absolute max through extremely rare role-played events. (which is an idea stolen from another PW I played at some time, can't remember what it was called though, too damned laggy if I remember correctly)
Posting this now is admittedly crying over spilt milk but if there ever is a cataclysmic event that wipes the character database, I'd really like to see an absolute max lev of 20 and preferably lower. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 25 Jul 2005 08:25 AM |
What do you suggest Cantor? That those who put in a tremendous amount of hours into the mod should not be allowed to advance?
A quick check of the dirtnap league shows Luther having more than 1100 more hours IG than Cantor. What do you expect will happen during those hours? That he sits around doing nothing, waiting for people to come to him? Being a God? Heh, there are places in the mod where even he won't go without a tremendous amount of help.
Why the concern over levels? There are plenty of events that have benefitted parties of all levels. Your level can make a character more survivable, but many of the events I have seen where the lower level characters did better than the higher ones.
XP at higher levels comes principly from one source. RP xp. Combat xp at those levels is minimal at best and only huge, boring, quantities of it can get you anywhere. That particular character has more than twice the number of kills of the #2 butcher in the mod. Of course, that was my choice for that character.
If you see the level differences as being the problem, what is to stop you from having another character? At the moment, I have Luther (lv40) who is rarely IG now except for plot purposes, Lucifer (18), Kannendova (3?), Kirrel (5) and Darrian(8), all who are ready to be brought out according to my whim and circumstances.
Except for CPC's, there are no other 30th ish level characters that I am aware of. A handful or two of mid 20s and...quite a few in their teens.
When I see people choosing to RP rather than level grind, I have not noticed them worrying about levels. I have seen mixed groups having a blast (or getting blasted, depending on the circumstances).
The message here is, stop worrying about levels and worry more about having fun with others.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 25 Jul 2005 09:45 AM |
I was not attacking you pd. I was regretting that we ever allowed chars to go above lev 20 that's all. I was not laying responsibility for it at your feet, so please don't take it personally. When/if we ever move to NWN2 limiting the level might be worth considering.
As for level not having any impact that's bs and you know it. You yourself have said that it can be a hastle for DMs to keep coming up with ways of getting Luther out of the picture so that his presence doesn't invalidate the excitement of a combat situation. The whole point of a RP PW is that you want the characters populating it to feel like they have an impact upon the world. One way you can have an impact is through purely non-combat RP but most of the time it involves some kind of adversary that is ultimately fought. Having characters of extremely high level effectively invalidates some of the more major storylines. If you've got a group of level 10s trying to track down a vampire lord the quest might involve several sidelines to gain powerful protections, information about weaknesses, recon missions to the area etc. It's not as exciting if, on your mission, you pass a totally friendly level 40 monk who would... in a purely RP sense... be totally happy to simply wade through the few poncy vampire guards and kill of the lord in one hit before resuming his journey to the local butcher with a cheerful wave farewell.
As for having multiple different characters that's great, I'm happy you get enjoyment out of it. I enjoy playing Cantor and despite trying many other characters I havn't found another I enjoy quite so much. I like having a history with the characters I meet, I find it makes for more in-depth roleplaying and a greater enjoyment in the long-run. But really, that's a purely personal choice and either way has very little impact upon the game. It's the fact that it is POSSIBLE to gain such high levels that takes the urgency and sense of personal responsibility out of the lower levels. Hell, I feel it even at level 20.
In short, yes, I think those who have put in huge numbers of hours should be allowed to advance, but ONLY in an RP sense not a mechanical sense. What's more I think that having a level limit of 10, 15 or 20 would actually be an AID to that end. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 25 Jul 2005 09:46 AM |
Regarding areas:
We're -really- busy redoing/expanding existing ones and adding new ones, for some large-scale DM events upon the horizon. We're also changing the less eye-catching ones as we go (and when we feel like it from my perspective ;)).
So there'll be some huge developments as regards areas and design forthcoming :)
cheers!
- Ara
(The areas mentioned above are on the "hit-list") |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 25 Jul 2005 11:36 AM |
Not sure if this is off topic or not, not really sure WHAT the topic is anymore, but I just wanted to say, Reality bites. By this I mean it's just a fact of life that there will always be someone out there who is better at something than you, or who is stronger than you. I remember when Johe first plopped onto the ground in Vives, (and this is a big part of HIS history), He felt pretty small what with Balthor the wizard who could melt your brain with a word, Elvalia who could shoot what was left of that melted brain out the back of your head before you knew what was happening. There was one turning point in the relationship I forged with these and other higher level characters. Johe had some plan to help Fengus the Foul (who I miss by the way :P) that I'm sure sounded crazy but I assure you was well concieved (*chuckles*) An argument ensued with the higher level "godlike" characters, and I'll admit there was a certain amount of RL anger at this argument for me at the time, wich made for some pretty good RP to be honestWell anyway after the argument I found myself stewing over it, and was inspired to "show them" what a little halfling could do, and put in some real hard work to catch up to them. My first days in Vives were like my first days in high school, a lot of the seniors where twice my size and had facial hair and stuff! I remember on our first day (it was an all boys school), all the seniors gathered us together and we were each assigned to a senior to be his gopher...wow now I'm REALLY goin' off on a tangent aren't I...what's my point? Little Johe followed Arcane around for months being his squire, learning things and increasing his level until one day Arcane said there was nothing more he could teach him. There is something to be said for the social dynamics of having players of what may seem to be ridiculously different levels and abilities. I would hate to see that realism lost.
Improving my character has always been the central driving force of playing D&D ever since I was a peach fuzz 13 year old playing my first fighter mage. Limiting that in any way would be a sad thing, hell I was even dissappointed when I found out the cap was 40! but I suppose you have to draw the line somewhereAnd what's so wrong with running to the big level 40 lug and putting him to work? That's just the way things are.
Reality bites, there will always be someone out there who can do something better than you, or is stronger than you, go find them and get them to help you out ;) |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 25 Jul 2005 12:46 PM |
Once Again my 2 Cents which Amounts to .... :)
One thing I would like to see is maybe some Events listed on NWC geared towards low levels to help boost our player Base.
Another thing I loved about Vives Was sessions Geared towards RP like Fairs and Auctions I even remember My half-Orc Grak trying to read during a poetry contest. I thought some of the Trials held in the past were very interesting as well.
I have a load of Ideas but little time on break I'll write more later if this gets much attention.
Take Care |
You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.
~Robin Williams
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 25 Jul 2005 12:54 PM |
Once Again my 2 Cents which Amounts to .... :)
One thing I would like to see is maybe some Events listed on NWC geared towards low levels to help boost our player Base.
Another thing I loved about Vives Was sessions Geared towards RP like Fairs and Auctions I even remember My half-Orc Grak trying to read during a poetry contest. I thought some of the Trials held in the past were very interesting as well.
I have a load of Ideas but little time on break I'll write more later if this gets much attention.
Take Care
Funny you should mention that, I've been thinking the same thing myself for a long, long time and planning a few things out along those lines.
So, there may be such events coming up soon, depending on whether I get time to run them on top of everything else I'm doing. |
The subculture of my dreams
Is waiting for me to fall asleep.
I know you're scared—you should be.
I know you're scared. |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 27 Jul 2005 05:29 PM |
Just wanted to say that I think the discussion and the ideas that have been sprouting ((especially the lower level characters week) are great.
I have returned to Vives now twice with my 3rd level dwarf since my posting above and managed to find some playes and have a really good time. Real life has unfortunately cut my sessions short, but I plan on spending some additional time and hope to see continued good results.
I think the ideas about a fair, auctions, swordfighting/bow contests are all great. If a couple of them can be done during the players week, with lower levels getting to meet high levels too, so much the better....gives a better sense of the world.
Having played in a few PWs now, my sense of GM/player interaction is that the level of interaction is something like in the shape of an hour glass....lots needed at the beginning to keep people in and create attachment to the world....can die off a bit in the mid-levels because by then players have (1) met other people and created connections and (2) are powerful enough to traverse more areas by themselves. Hence, exploring becomes a key factor....but when characters get higher levels, then they need perhaps a little more interaction to keep them interested in the whole scene.
This is, of course, just my little theory, but perhaps food for thought.
I'm surprised about how excited I am to be back. |
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for...
-- Ernest Hemingway |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 09 Aug 2006 06:12 PM |
I could not resist to join in conversation, since I (also) recently have returned (from army though) to continue quality time in Vives.
I got this idea once when I was taking part in building nwn server called "Rel Altii" (that project is now dead since we lost our lead scriptor).
My vision is about enhanced bardic instrument play track (wav/mp3) samples.
In other words.. You propably know the feeling when you *emote* singing or playing IC, and you get the following:
A short 4 second (not to mention Goofy sounding) ratchet noise, that makes your performing sound somewhat fruitless, and emotionless. What I am getting into is.. replacing the sound files (used by emote commands *sing* and/or *play*) with better quality sound samples, that will give the performers, and listeners at least some kind of feeling of ENTERTAINMENT.
About scripting
There should (most likely) be some sort of a perceiver/detector - if the player is carrying a specific musical instrument, or singing (or perhaps even chanting if a priest etc).
I volunteer for making some of the samples. I currently have in possession, 2 different RL acoustic guitars, and softwares that can be used for composing / imitating various instruments (i am also experienced in music making). I have samples for composing most ingame instrument like flute/birdpipes, drums, etc. And I could propably make my friend play his RL violin (enough to record a short sample).
Contact me if interrested.
- Because nothing beats the campfire guitar. . . especially in Vives
..for that is how teh bardic music became teh greatest amusement ever invented in Vives |
When all is said and done, more is said than done
Ash Burz-Durbagu. Burzum ishi
IC: Owyn De'grace, and Agrippa (Beren) |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 09 Aug 2006 07:18 PM |
| I could do some fife samples... xD |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 09 Aug 2006 09:09 PM |
I was going to actually create a interactive music system based on the 6 second Round cycle in NWN. Basically, I would create a variety of objects that played sounds when activated, and each of these sounds would be one "Riff" or a few measures lasting 6 exact seconds in a particular chordal syntax, or specific key. This would allow you to "Queue" each of these played 6 second sounds to string together an entire customizably assembled "song"
I got the idea from Authentic Flamenco Music, which is constructed, at the musicians decision, from various small pieces of pre-written coplas. I also got the idea from Playing 5 years of NWN and watching everyone spring to life during an adventure after resting, and all cast spells simultaneously at the same time.
Let me see here...
<Veran> So here's how mine works.
<Veran> I'm a Music Major, a Classical guitarist.
* Vaei-3ds listens
<Veran> I was going to record 6 second waves...
<Veran> All in different chords, different progressions, little 6 second riffs,
<Veran> all in the same KEY
<Veran> So even an idiot could just play anything he wanted and sound decent.
<Veran> But the more advanced people could do things like Dominant resolution, and so forth.
<Vaei-3ds> I'm not a music major, although I play the flute. You have to explain to me in some details.
<Veran> Well, ok...
<Veran> When I finally described it to someone else, which was like last week, with Fictrix.
<Veran> I decided... I'd need, 156 waves... for a whole-working system to be in place... a modest, small, but fully functional, and fun system.
<Veran> Now, All the wavs would be in the Key of C Major
<Veran> (Or A minor)
<Veran> That's C major Dm Em FM GM Am and B diminished.
<Veran> NWN has an in game Rhythm.
<Vaei-3ds> Hmm... *if* you use itemactivate
<Veran> So... NWN has a predetermined Rhythmic function built into the combat rounds.
<Veran> IF you use item-activate, you have perfect rhythym everything.
<Veran> One wav will always start playing EXACTLY where the last left off.
<Veran> As long as everything is measured perfectly.
<Vaei-3ds> (you can programmatically do that too)
<Veran> IG?
<Vaei-3ds> yes
<Veran> *considers*
<Veran> More importantly.
<Veran> But conforming to the round system Will allow you to play along with others in perfect Sync
<Veran> Everyone switches chords at the same time.... no margin for human error..
<Veran> Everything is exactly on the beat.
<Veran> Everything
<Vaei-3ds> Hmm... I wouldn't think so, actually.
<Veran> Why not?
<Vaei-3ds> timing by rounds in NwN is a fidgety thing, I'd imagine. Have you tried it out with a smaller assembly?
<Veran> I haven't tried anything
<Vaei-3ds> heh
<Veran> I don't even have any wavs
<Vaei-3ds> With item activate, how do you actually control 156 sounds?
<Veran> But listen... you know when you are dungeon crawling, with that group of adventurers?
<Veran> And the mages are exhausted, and so everyone stops for a rest right?
<Vaei-3ds> (ok?)
<Vaei-3ds> *nods*
<Veran> What happens as soon as the rest is over?
<Vaei-3ds> (huh?)
<Veran> the mages start firing away their buffs.
<Vaei-3ds> oh
<Veran> Cast cast cast cast cast.
<Vaei-3ds> I guess.
<Veran> Cause they have like 20 buffs to cast.
<Veran> the Clerics, the Druids, the mages.
<Vaei-3ds> Are they always casted at the same time?
<Veran> And they All Cast them in perfect synchronization.
<Veran> Absolutely.
<Vaei-3ds> I didn't know that (I don't play enough)
<Veran> which sounds really cool when they cast the same spell, and their voices double.
<Veran> *slouches again*
<Vaei-3ds> But dear... you can synch programmatically too.
<Veran> With other PCs?
<Vaei-3ds> yes
<Veran> yeah, but you know what? I'm not a Programmer.
<Veran> Let me explain the rest first.
<Veran> like where the 156 comes from.
<Veran> so we got 7 chords.
<Veran> We can get a LOT of songs out of those 7
<Veran> But we add in a bit more for flavor.
<Veran> Forget how many I added.
<Veran> I think a few dominant 7ths
<Veran> And maybe a few half chords.
<Vaei-3ds> I have no idea what you're talking about =P
<Veran> Like 3 seconds E minor, three seconds D minor.
<Veran> Anyways, these are our skeletons.
<Vaei-3ds> Hmm... so every single note is on the order of 6 seconds?
<Veran> So we get about 10 different Musical descriptions Chordal, for our instrument.
<Veran> no no...
<Veran> with 6 seconds, I can play whatever the hell I want.
<Veran> As long as I'm in rhythm.
<Veran> The notes don't last for 6 seconds.
<Veran> I'm thinking like Flamenco stuff.
<Veran> Lots of notes!
<Veran> like maybe 48 in 6 seconds
<Veran> Say a whole note lasts 3 seconds.
<Veran> That's 1 measure.
<Veran> Anyways
<Vaei-3ds> How does the player control the varieties?
<Veran> You'll see
<Vaei-3ds> He can't possibly know 156 by heart
<Vaei-3ds> ok
<Veran> the 156 was just for the sake of finding out how big the hak was.
<Vaei-3ds> (and how big would it be?)
<Veran> To see if it was logical for people to install it in a Mod.
<Veran> I think we decided like 16 megs.
<Veran> 16-20
<Vaei-3ds> psst. Spare change.
<Veran> for a very BASIC version
<Veran> Anyways
<Veran> I'm not even sure we'll stick with 156
<Veran> Not sure what choices we made to get there.
<Veran> I think I'm already making some different ones.
<Veran> So we've got like 10 different patterns right... 10 different 6 second patterns.
<Vaei-3ds> go on?
<Veran> Then, say, different versions of each of these patterns were played.
<Veran> say, three different versions, for variety.
<Veran> so that not every A minor 6 second sounded the same.
<Veran> right?
<Vaei-3ds> hmm, ok
<Veran> Then, we have there... 30 wavs.
<Veran> That's one instrument.
<Vaei-3ds> for christ sake, one is plenty when there's none for YEARS
<Veran> That's... the 30 6 second item special properties (or whatever) for say, "Lyre"
<Veran> Or "Flamenco Guitar"
<Veran> then those 30 sounds are assigned as infinite special properties to the holdable models IG
<Veran> We could have say, 2 Guitars, 1 bass, 1 lute, tambourine, horn, and, I don't know, sticks our something.
<Veran> That's like 5....6...7.....8 different sets of 30 sounds.
<Veran> Except for percussion.
<Veran> Don't really need 30 sounds for tambourine.
<Veran> Give them say.... 6
<Veran> so thats.... 6x30 is 180
<Veran> +12
<Veran> 192 wavs
<Veran> Should work fine.
<Veran> Then each instrument... has say, a different set.
<Vaei-3ds> err. I think we don't need that level of sophistication to start with.
<Veran> Like you could have "Flamenco Guitar ver. 1" Flamenco guitar ver 2" and ver 3
<Veran> all with different styles of the same things.
<Veran> all with 10 actions each
<Veran> To be controlled with the Radial menu... or quickslots.
<Vaei-3ds> How hard is it for you (or other sound artists) to generate the wav files?
<Veran> It was just going to be me... and I don't know
<Vaei-3ds> I *really* think controlling through speech is a much, much better way
<Veran> Nah nah, listen.
<Veran> With the radial menu.. item activation... everything just get's queued.
<Veran> Then you can just sit back and relax.
<Vaei-3ds> Same with speech?
<Veran> You can memorize the Radial functions.
<Vaei-3ds> It's even cleaner with speech
<Veran> like... 9168
<Veran> I mean... 9168 is your first spell of your second level slot.
<Veran> Ever done that before?
<Vaei-3ds> No. And don't like it either.
<Veran> Just use the number pad.
<Veran> It's easy
<Veran> Besides, you're not the one IG
<Veran> alright... tell me about the speech functions.
<Veran> Are they received by a voice?
<Vaei-3ds> I'd far prefer to be able to queue it up by speech: 3[LUTE 1 3 5 3 6 7 5 3]
<Vaei-3ds> And have it played in whatever way the sound artist thinks best makes use of the flexibility
<Veran> hmmm
<Veran> That's restricted by the decimal system though
<Vaei-3ds> 1, 3, 5 etc. can just stand for anything...
<Vaei-3ds> duh
<Vaei-3ds> You can have 3[LUTE alpha beta acomplicatedtune delta]
<Vaei-3ds> (or anything else)
<Veran> you could use letters?
<Veran> Like d3 for the third version of the D minor.
<Vaei-3ds> *nods*
<Vaei-3ds> You can probably specify the individual notes
<Veran> no no no
<Veran> Where are we going to get the individual notes?
<Vaei-3ds> (or whatever you think is the best basic unit)
<Veran> So how do you play as a band?
<Vaei-3ds> Hmm... let me think. 3[LUTE SECTION1 blahblahblah SECTION2 blahblahblah]
<Veran> Speech commands sound too.... instantly gratifying to be synched.
<Vaei-3ds> The other character(s) would use 6[GUITAR SECTION1 duhduh duh SECTION2 duh duh duh]
<Veran> And when would these "playsounds" occur?
<Vaei-3ds> And the listener waits for a certain duration before playing the sounds... and during that duration, it synchs the SECTION1s
<Veran> so it's player controlled?
<Veran> To the very millisecond?
<Vaei-3ds> Or you can even have 3[LUTE SECTION1 blah blah blah SECTION2 BLa?hsdf ljisdf kljsdf]
<Vaei-3ds> And then 3[START]
<Vaei-3ds> I don't know the capacity
<Vaei-3ds> But it can easily be tested. |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 11 Aug 2006 10:25 AM |
I was going to actually create a interactive music system based on the 6 second Round cycle in NWN. Basically, I would create a variety of objects that played sounds when activated, and each of these sounds would be one "Riff" or a few measures lasting 6 exact seconds in a particular chordal syntax, or specific key. This would allow you to "Queue" each of these played 6 second sounds to string together an entire customizably assembled "song"
Veran, this one could seriously work.
Not only it would allow all Ingame instruments to have soundback of 30 unique 6 seconds "riffs", but would also allow every bard in Vives to "jam along" with each other while telling tales, or singing IC lyrics. This is really something to think about.
The idea is quite possible. Similiar kind of ideas are already in existance that work pretty well.
One of them is punkomatic - that can be found at:
http://www.newsandentertainment.com/zfpunkomatic.html
(Not to be mistaken to be the correct genre/music for Vives. Link is brought up only to describe the actual idea of possible music system).
This proves that it does not generally matter if you play the "riff" samples in any chaotic order, because in the end it will form a song in every case. All it takes to create such is correct timing, balancing the melody into a specific octave, and some testing.
The samples will likely have to be tested, mixed, and edited to form the best result.
As a media assistant, I will be able to help in the process of mixing the samples.
So it does not generally matter if you don't know how to play an istrument in RL.
Music-system like this will allow any bard to play correctly IC with realistic, and moody sounding results. |
When all is said and done, more is said than done
Ash Burz-Durbagu. Burzum ishi
IC: Owyn De'grace, and Agrippa (Beren) |
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Re: Some ideas upon returning to Vives....
Posted: 11 Aug 2006 01:01 PM |
| *gets all excited* Geeks make music! Geeks make bard fun! Goooood geeks. *drools* |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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