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Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 02:12 PM |
This is just a reminder to other people, because its becoming increasing more of a problem, at least from what I have seen.
If someone is Invisible but you can see them on our screens with a fade outline, unless you have true sight, you CANNOT actually see them.
What this reflects is that your spot may have picked up movement in the grass etc or your Hear may have detected sounds such as movement and breathing.
This means you know roughly were they are. Thats it. You dont know who they are, what they are wearing, what they are doing etc.
Can people please bear this in mind because its really frustrating to keep having to remind people. Especially those who you know you've told before.
Sorry for the rant. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 02:28 PM |
Well, this raises an interesting and more general question --
At what point to the failings of the NWN engine (the mismatch from PnP, really) affect game play? Meaning, if I don't know the PnP rules and the engine doesn't faithfully implement the PnP rules, how should I 'play' then? I don't know exactly what issue you're describing above, but if the NWN engine allowed me to see your character then I'd assume I can see you character. I'm not sure I'd feel 100% comfortable 'ignoring' your character, since I'd not know when I'm allowed to actually see your character.
Anyway, I'm not trying to rebuke your point. It just made me wonder about the larger issue of the impedance mismatch between PnP and NWN.
-Q |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 02:34 PM |
if the NWN engine allowed me to see your character then I'd assume I can see you character. I'm not sure I'd feel 100% comfortable 'ignoring' your character, since I'd not know when I'm allowed to actually see your character.
I would agree with this, and I would rebuke the point. If I, as a character, can't assume I can see what is obviously visable (even if the invisible person is translucent) then how am I supposed to react? Shall I ignore all translucent people, even if there is a chance that I spotted them, thus negating my spot and making invisibility all encompassing? How can I tell when I finally do spot someone? |
My name is Byron Lorian....I am the Last Son |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 02:35 PM |
I can see your point, but in this case the character is faded out for that very reason. To let the PCs know they cant actually see the person.
Plus, if its a mage, its invisibility and common sense tells you, if they arent visible you cant see them.
I do agree though, because to me, no matter how good someones hide is, if they are in the middle of a field with no cover and low grass they could not just stand there in front of someone whilst hidden.
Problem is how do you govern that. I do think though that in this case, its pretty self-explanatory and the NWN engine does support it. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 02:38 PM |
And sorry there was a double post with Byron.
If someone is translucent you have used your spot/ hide to DETECT them. That doesnt mean you can see them. If they are invisible, you just cant. Thats why they are not opaque. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 03:37 PM |
Whoa whoa, let's not get the effects of Invisibility confused, here.
There's a large little hardcoded bug in NwN that allows people wielding a ranged weapon to see Invisible people. Why does this work? Simple:
Ever notice that when you walk close enough to someone who's invisible(wielding a melee or no weapon), they appear.. but if you walk away, they disappear again? This is NwN basically saying what Akril just said. You notice telltale signs of them being there. You don't actually see them, they're still quite invisible to you(thus why they get 50% concealment to attacks). Now, the problem with the NwN system is.. they based when you have telltale signs off your weapon's range. If you're close enough to hit them, you're close enough to tell where they are. Little did they realize at the time, this applied to ranged weapons as well. So, a person wielding a bow can "see" someone invis as long as they're on the screen. In reality, they don't see that person at all. Not even telltale signs.
Hide, spot, search... none of that has anything to do with it when they're 50 feet away, and completely invisible.
In fact, I don't know where If someone is translucent you have used your spot/ hide to DETECT them came into play. Invisibility is quite beyond spot, and.. well.. hide has nothing to do with detecting people. |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 03:46 PM |
Best way to tell if someone is actually invisible or not is to right click them and check what spell properties are in effect. If you see invisibility as one of them(not just concealment), then you can't see them. ;p
Improved Invisibility partially wears(enough to where you can see them their outline. Think Predator) when they attack something. They can be seen after that, as the full invisibility has worn at that point. |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 04:44 PM |
Best way to tell if someone is actually invisible or not is to right click them and check what spell properties are in effect. If you see invisibility as one of them(not just concealment), then you can't see them. ;p
The saying "Shoot first and ask questions later" comes to mind at this. Rarely are people willing to take the time to check(ask questions) before they talk(shoot). Just a good pratice to check when you can.
On another note while I havent tested it I do beleive that the 1.64 patch is "Supposed" to have fixed the bow bug, cant say for sure however. |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 04:44 PM |
This is very interesting. If I can just take a quote from the PHB for Spot
"A spot check result of 20 or greater can generally let you become aware of an invisble creature near you (though you can't actually see it)."
Now, I know there are some who could easily make this check if you were near by, but there are two things:
1) You categorically cannot see them. You notice tell-tale signs, such as unsual grass movement and splashes in puddles. Of course if the person stops moving this isnt the case.
2) As this makes clear, this is only if they are near you. Now as Grey points out there is a bug with NWN that applies "within weapon range" rule to Missle Weapons.
Now whilst I agree with Q about the disparity between NWN engine and PnP rules but personally I think this is a) so obvious and b) practical and most importantly c) in line with the RP ethos of Vives that it should be played out.
I think the way around it is where new players are unfamiliar you send them a tell (maybe it could be put in the PHB). The thing is, in the main the new players are totally ok with RPing this and respond politely to any PMs you might send them. The problem is with a few older players who seem to think that because they have a high spot they can spot a pin drop a mile away and can declare to the world what you are wearing, where you are and in most cases who you are.
Its just very frustrating. Perhaps the solution is for the mages of Ka'azim to give everyone a Sequencer Robe with True seeing on it so those same people dont have the domain on stealth.
Perhaps the DMs can make a ruling on this.
I know Im ranting (its only because I was so agreeable the other day *grins*) |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 04:57 PM |
PS. To spot someone with a specific location, in good conditions if they are moving is DC 40 at 30ft away. Even then you cant see them.
If they are say 60ft away and not moving its DC 48. Now I know a few people with Spots of say 36 but that still only gives you a 40% of pinpointing their location and still not knowing what they look like. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 04:58 PM |
I think the way around it is where new players are unfamiliar you send them a tell (maybe it could be put in the PHB).
Just like to say that the other day an older player spotted myself (a fairly player) while invisible because they were using a bow at the time. I sent them a tell, informing them of the bug, they apologized and all was good.
Simple, no? |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 05:03 PM |
You'd think so and I have to say, most are very reasonable, like whoever you spoke of. But there are a few that I have told over and over again and still persist in doing the same. Some of them seem to me to be doing it deliberatly too.
"Hey you there with the black robes and helmet on"
Even if you spotted someone, though not unthinkable, it is a kind of odd thing to shout out.
Its such a shame because its so truly insignificant to need to do it, but there could well be a legitimate reason for being there invisible. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 09:03 PM |
There are a lot of folks running around Vives at the moment using various types of concealment. Vampires being one of them. If I see you standing hidden in a place where I witnessed a vampire attack not that long ago you can be sure I will say something. I do not think it odd to try to keep friends safe from a possible threat. Next time I will just put an arrow or two in you as a friendly warning. :)
-Ken |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 10:08 PM |
There are a lot of folks running around Vives at the moment using various types of concealment. Vampires being one of them. If I see you standing hidden in a place where I witnessed a vampire attack not that long ago you can be sure I will say something. I do not think it odd to try to keep friends safe from a possible threat. Next time I will just put an arrow or two in you as a friendly warning. :)
-Ken
So if you see someone who is invisible useing the bow bug your going to simply shoot at them then? Hmmm... |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 10:18 PM |
I always thought that if you saw a translucent player it meant that you saw through the invisibility or hide or whatever. Why else pump points into spot? I think we aren't meant to think so much about whether you really "see" a player or not. To me it's simple: you either see him or you don't. So if I see a character on my screen, I play as if I can see him IG. If my character fails a spot check, I don't see the other character on screen at all. I think that's appropriate.
As far as the bow bug goes... archers make a living having sharp eyes. : ) |
Alarwen Emeria - Patience and time...
Ranger/Sorc/AA
Jessminda (companion) |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 10:57 PM |
>So if you see someone who is invisible useing the bow bug your going to simply shoot at >them then? Hmmm...
Not if I know who they are ... I wonder how reliable that bow bug is, I did not see Evar (or whoever that was since I did not see him or her) till Jand stood next to him. |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 11:54 PM |
I always thought that if you saw a translucent player it meant that you saw through the invisibility or hide or whatever. Why else pump points into spot? I think we aren't meant to think so much about whether you really "see" a player or not. To me it's simple: you either see him or you don't. So if I see a character on my screen, I play as if I can see him IG. If my character fails a spot check, I don't see the other character on screen at all. I think that's appropriate.
As far as the bow bug goes... archers make a living having sharp eyes. : )
The invisible spell is what it is, you claim that if you place points into spot you can See THROUGH magic? Thats what See Invisibility is for... |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 12:00 AM |
>
Not if I know who they are ... I wonder how reliable that bow bug is, I did not see Evar (or whoever that was since I did not see him or her) till Jand stood next to him.
About 8/10 of the times I've been around someone with a bow and myself useing invisibilty they've noticed me. Seems fairly good. |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 12:20 AM |
Spot Doesn't Help people see through invisibility at all.....
Spot only helps people see through an opposing character's Hide skill... that's it. It's part of the Modal detect action that is the Counterpart of the Hide/move Silently action. It is also used for auxillary functions, such as spotting various details in Game.... *Notices Small writing on the wall*
There are only 4 things that allow you to see through invisibility.
Detect invisibility
Invisibility Purge
True Sight
Being in Threaten Range(Really close with melee weapon, full range with bow)
Spot doesn't even come into the equation at all, nor does Listen.
If an opponent appears partially hidden, that means either they have been using stealth and you detected them, they were using improved invisibility and are no longer, they are invisible and within your threat range, they are invisible and inside the same Invisibility sphere as you. I think that covers all possibilities.
As for Reactions, *shrugs* I suppose naming the character is a bit much. Akril, if you'd really like to keep players from Responding to you... heck, make it so the Engine IS on your side. Don't get close to people.... Grab a few points of Hide/move silently from Items (Elvenkind Cloak) and enter stealth mode when not running around, Especially if you spot a Bow wielder long before you become close enough to the party for the PLAYER to actually spot you on his screen. You'd be amazed at the effeciency of using both modes at once. and as Last resort... Grab Greater Sanctuary, if it's that much for you.. I mean.. invisibility is only a level 2 spell.. that's PRIMITIVE compared to the powers that you wield...PRimitive! I don't see many Cleric's Whining about their Sanctuaries(normal), because after you reach a certain level, they are useless. Bioware has given you a nice New Very cool spell, that works VERY well. If you grab that... I guarantee you.... Your AWESOME Magical powers will NOT be surpassed by the likes of a slightly keen archer. Remember.. Invisibility is by no means impenetrable.. sure.. its magic... and no amount of spot is going to make you completely visible... but there's Grass... there's Noise... there's footprints... coughs.... Sneezes.... So on and So forth. It's not the most foolproof Spell Designed. |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 06:04 AM |
| On the up side for those who use invisibility, the bow bug has been corrected in the 1.64. :) |
Lianneth Mei'ren - Spellslinger |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 06:43 AM |
Well, Im glad to hear they have fixed the bug. That will help.
Veran, thank you for suggesting I have awesome magical powers and your right, Greater Sanctuary is better. BUT, a) I have an IG "thing" that stops me using that spell at the moment and b) that doesnt help new players.
Bottom line, if someone is invisible you CANNOT see them. Its really that simple unless you have as Veran points out, one of the detection spells etc.
I dont think anyones Spot is high enough to pinpoint a caster whose not close enough to them with certainty and I have noticed that this only works with people using ranged weapons, so that suggests to me the bug is there.
And Tsu, I sent you a PM explaning my criticism wasnt aimed at you and apologised for the coincidence. As for hitting an invisible creature with a bow. If this bug fix works, good luck. You'll need to make a Spot at something like DC 45 with a 50% chance of missing even if you succeed. But in the same vane I suppose I could assume anyone moving around me in stealth is up to no good and when I see them with True Seeing I'll just blast them into the stone age.
I dont see the big deal. You just cant see invisible creatures without magical aid. Of course that in itself might present RP encounters if you know someone is there. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 08:26 AM |
On the up side for those who use invisibility, the bow bug has been corrected in the 1.64. :)
Can you please confirm where you read this. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 08:27 AM |
>Not if I know who they are ... I wonder how reliable that bow bug is, I did not see Evar (or whoever that was since I did not see him or her) till Jand stood next to him.
And in this case that suggests to me there is also a bug that if one party member can see them then all can, which clearly shouldnt be the case. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 09:01 AM |
| I can sometimes see invisible creatures without magical aid. Creatures have also spoted my characters when they were invisible. I just figured like all magic that spell is not totally reliable. |
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Re: Invisibility
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 09:26 AM |
Can you please confirm where you read this.
I wish I could, it was ages ago that I read it. I did however, play in a campaign game this Sunday for which I had to patch to 1.64 and even with my bow equipped, I couldn't see the bard in our party when she cast invisibility on herself. So it seems to be true. :) |
Lianneth Mei'ren - Spellslinger |
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