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The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 12:35 PM |
As Eerel is feeding the worms at the moment I had a few thoughts about the death system.
Has a corpse token system been considered before? I think it would allow alot of roleplay opportunities for carrying wounded comrades out of danger rather than just leaving them to be eaten by which ever nasty brought their death about.
Having NPC priests be able to bring people back to life would encourage people ta journey together more, although I admit it does kind of make death 'not so serious'
Perhaps making ressurections from NPCs very expensive, having a large chance of failure, only being able to do it a limited number of times could address that.
Just some thoughts I had anyway. I'm not sure if it fits in with the builders vision of Vives, but I think it could be a great feature. |
Eerel Swiftfoot
Self proclaimed fasterest little person in da land
Eerel's Story:
http://vives.dyndns.org/vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=49386 |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 12:52 PM |
In theory, I really like the idea of being able to carry a companion away to a safe place, but I see a few problems with it. I don't know how most characters would manage carrying the fallen person as well as all their gear. My Eliana, for example, is a fairly weak character (12 STR) and can carry 100 lbs., and usually plods around with something near that in her pack. I'm sure she weighs a bit more than that, so carrying her would require being able to carry an extra 200+ lbs, and still be able to move. I suppose it could be distributed in some way across two or more, but still... not many could do that, especially in a dangerous area where all hands would be needed.
I do not, however, have a whit of technical knowledge about this, so there may well be a very simple, viable solution. :D |
Consequences
Unsent
It's hard to say it, time to say it...
Goodbye, goodbye |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 01:12 PM |
The entire death system is currently being looked into. Players arent happy with the xp hit, and the vives team arent happy with a lot of the problems and attitudes that exist to death in Vives. The harsh penalty was meant to make death feared and respected...instead it just seems to encourage people to try and find ways to avoid that penalty.
We have actually been looking at this in-depth for last few days. We are nearing an agreement, and will announce it on this thread as soon as we can, for a little more discussion before we implement it. But it -is- going to change.
As for the carrying bodies...its something we will add to our discussions...it might be possible to have an rip chip that weighs approximately the same as your inventory + 100lbs. *shrugs*
TBC...
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 01:27 PM |
Even though I have not played on Vives for very long, I can say that I like the current death system. I have died a number of times so far, and being level 3+ for most of them, I did take the XP and gold hit. Believe me, it hurt, but it definately makes you fear death. I read that the Vives team is looking to change it, but I hope there is still some sort of penalty for dying. Otherwise people will rush into combat, try and take out as many bad guys as they can, then simply respawn and go back to get the rest of them, maybe needing to respawn a few times to get them all. That is hardly role-playing.
Having said that, I do like the idea of someone being able to carry their fallen comrade back to civilization. What about something like if the player dies and clicks the option "wait for help" then a loot bag containing all his/her stuff (besides what is in active inventory on their person maybe) appears beside their corpse. That way people could divide up the load to be carried. aloso, that way you need to decide how much you trust your companions before clickling wait for help ;)
Well thats my two cents worth on the issue, thanks for listening (or not)...
-Kalos |
-Kalos
"When in doubt, tell the truth. It will amaze most people, delight your friends, and confuse your enemies" -Mark Twain
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 01:32 PM |
| I vote a big emphatic uhm -NO- on the dropping of lootbag containing all a pcs items upon hitting the wait for help screen. I envision that leading to grief and alot of lost items. |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 01:44 PM |
| Perhaps instead of the xp penalty there could be some way to stop the character being played for a certain period of time, maybe an hour or so? That way it stops respawning and heading back into the battle to finish off what's left, keeps clerics useful as they can get people back on their feet quickly and represents travel time to the nearest infirmiry. |
Lianneth Mei'ren - Spellslinger |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 01:55 PM |
The xp penalty will definitely stay in one form or another. We want people to feel death is really to be avoided and feared. Just losing a RL hour and nothing else wouldnt accomplish that,
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 02:03 PM |
| Any news on the new system you guys are working on? |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 02:04 PM |
I agree, fallen PC corpses would help RP go a lot smoother. The previous server I was on implemented this as well and it worked out great. The PC's body was "dead" and anyone could pick him/her up through an "object" above his/her corpse. The PC itself, was transported to an Afterlife generic area where he/she would remain until they were resurected through other PC's. They also had the choice of being resurrected without any help, but through a substantial hit to their xp and gold. Usually, the weight average on any person was between 150-300 lbs which seems to be realistic.
Yes, you will be burdened, but what do you expect? You're carrying a person (Over your shoulder, in your arms, etc. etc.) Of course you're going to be walking slower, if not more carefully. |
Valarien Wrynn
"All I ever wanted from life was a good drink and a pretty lass on me lap..." |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 02:07 PM |
Any news on the new system you guys are working on?
As I say, hopefully put something here in next few days...but may well take a while to get implemented. Very much in discussion stage at the moment.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 02:12 PM |
random thoughts about death:
If I had my way, death would be permanent, resurrection would be possible, but would involve permanent stat loss and severe experience loss depending on how much damage the character took and how long they were dead. I would suggest as well that a random number of random items should be dropped at the scene in a loot bag. If the body was destroyed, say burned up or eaten, resurrection would not be possible and a greater random number of random items should be dropped in a loot bag at the scene. Oddly enough, I don't think gold should be affected much, unless a banking system is introduced and then I would suggest that carried gold should have weight, and would potentially become part of the random items dropped at the scene. Having a corpse token would be a good idea, as well as npc clerics that could resurrect, but they should charge astronomical prices.
Included with this would have to be a rule that when you die you can't simply go and create the same character again. I expect it would be possible with the Vives system to ensure that no two characters have the same name. While I realize that it isn't entirely "realistic" to disallow identical names, I think it has its benefits.
This would however, be a big change for Vives. The server would become a much lower level experience all round, which would be ok, soloing in dangerous areas would be almost entirely out of the question. And while you're at it, make rerolls for maximum hit points illegal as well... that one really bugs me, even though I do it just to keep up with everyone else...
As much of a role play server as Vives is, there is still some meta gaming that goes on, and a death system such as this would reduce this.
I think combined with this there should be a way of retiring characters without deleting them. By "retiring without deleting", I mean they would be deleted from the player's list of characters, but stored in a database. This, combined with stat loss, would simulate the aging process, and character that have been retired could be stored, with, if the player gives permission, the potential to become npcs that are playable by the dms. Retired characters that have attained a certain level could be written into the history books somehow. |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 02:47 PM |
To be honest Llewen we won't be that harsh here.
People put a lot of time into their characters and some of our best characters here are so good because they have been able to put in a lot of time into their characters to develop them. You risk losing that with perma-death and harsh penalties.
Yeah I recognise that perma-death and item loss would be more realistic, but so would having to sleep for 8hrs IG . We have always tried to balance the reality with the playability here and will never be an HCR server in many respects.
I think we are veering away from NPC cleric ressing because this detracts from PC clerics abilities. Though having said that we haven't made our final decisions yet!
Players can retire characters now whenever they wish, by just stopping playing them. It is pretty much impossible though to delete them from players lists because of the way the database works and all of the info stored across the dbase (stats, areas visited, monsters fought x times, deaths, inventory etc etc,) the data would have to come out of each one and therefore we have a policy of no character deletion. Us DMs and admins are here to have fun too *grins*.
Technically it would be possible for DMs to recreate a PC if needed, but hasn't happened so far. I can't see a DM wanting to play a PC either, it's someone elses loving creation, not theirs!
History can always get IG too, we would be happy to put any books IG submitted by PCs.
Hope this makes some sense.
It's good that everyone is discussing the death system now as we can make sure every angle has been covered when we come to our final agreement .
cheers,
Solitaire (The Dreamer) |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 05:27 PM |
In response to Llewen's post, how often does the Vives server save a particular character? I was wondering about the comment of re-leveling to ensure max hit points. Is that possible here, I sure hope not. I have never "re-leveled" a character to max hit points. I couldn't even tell you the total hit points of any character I've ever played as I never even think to look at it (unless I'm almost dead and am curious how many hit points I have left). In short, I hope people aren't doing this on Vives as that would be quite lame.
-Kalos |
-Kalos
"When in doubt, tell the truth. It will amaze most people, delight your friends, and confuse your enemies" -Mark Twain
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 05:51 PM |
Kalos, that was one of the first things I asked about here, and I was told that probably most people re-leveled to get max hit points. It is the only thing I have ever been disappointed with in Vives. Like I said, I do it as well, so I can't get too self righteous about it. I guess it is a lame excuse that not doing it would put my characters at too much of a disadvantage. However, if the rule was introduced banning re-levelling, I would gladly re-level all my characters once, taking whatever hit points I got, if that was possible.
Yeah I recognise that perma-death and item loss would be more realistic, but so would having to sleep for 8hrs IG
Sleep, who sleeps? I play Vives 24 hours a day... *reaches for the 50th cup of coffee*
To be honest Llewen we won't be that harsh here.
People put a lot of time into their characters and some of our best characters here are so good because they have been able to put in a lot of time into their characters to develop them. You risk losing that with perma-death and harsh penalties.
I understand that, I also understand that Vives would become a matter of doing the same quests over and over again as you are forced to start new characters again and again...
I just know that when I played pnp rpg's, there was no respawning, and somehow I would like to recapture the magic of that - of knowing that your character's life was very very important, and losing it was the worst thing that could possibly happen to you in the game. |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 05:55 PM |
| I don't exactly know what you mean by releveled to get max hit points. If you could be more clear I bet someone would look into a way to stop it. |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 05:55 PM |
| Second thought dont be more clear here be more clear in a message to all dms. |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 06:00 PM |
| I don't think I need to explain this to the DM's. I am pretty sure they all know how this is done. It is extremely simple. |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 06:00 PM |
| On third thought I wouldnt bother the dms with it, guess they already know. Apparantly everyone who has played NWN knew about it other than me :o . |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 06:12 PM |
| I think it is to your credit that you didn't know about it... |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 06:29 PM |
| You're not the only clueless one, Gasher...but I am game mechanics impaired :p |
Trishy
Macha Sparrowsong - Song is my life
Coretta Alandar - Cleric of Midoran
Dekla Debena - whatever
Not all people who wander are lost.
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 07:38 PM |
My two GP:
I love D&D. Great game, played it for years, have gone through more characters than I can think of at the moment. I still have sessions every week or two, got a regular group I play with, and we have alot of fun.
But Neverwinter Nights is -NOT- D&D. It isn't anywhere close.
D&D isn't a fast paced, on your toes type game. My DM has never went "Ok, Cary, the monster is in front of you.. you have 6 seconds to tell me what you're going to do!". Neverwinter was made to be an action variant of the roleplaying game D&D. They gave people the freedom to make their own mods, and from that.. it morphed into whatever people wanted it to be. I look at "Hardcore" mods, and I simply find it too funny that.. in their attempt to make it "Closer to D&D", they break their own rules.. making the game rediculously hard to play. If any of you have played, say, the server Narfell.. you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. "Realistic" is not a word meant for a Fantasy world. If I wanted realism, I'd play Real Life more often.
When I play Neverwinter, I play for one main reason reason:
The adventure. I'm not playing a character to sit around in town chatting about a history I've never experienced, as a personality with no depth. I want my character to be able to talk about the adventures I've sent him through. The ones he's dived into the depths of and barely survived. Adventures he's learned from, adapted to, or maybe even gave him an experience that altered the path he decides to take in life. A character's post-creation history only -sets him up- for the future you create for him. It's merely a template one should use for a reference as to how your character would behave in certain situations. With a death system that is far too harsh, the player is too afraid to go out and put his character through trials that make him the person he is. There is no greater experience than to explore a world created from another person's vivid imagination. But if you limit everything by making it too "realistic", you would never.. ever.. get to see the world to the fullest. For example... one of my first adventures, taken at about level 4.. was to the Gates of Altana. We were assaulted, mid way, by an unbelievably high level wizard/cleric(dm controlled). She wiped out half the party. With a death penalty too strict, that would have imidiately killed the fun of the entire adventure, and probably made me rather bitter towards the DMs starting off. However, we quickly recovered from the onslaught, and got to travel well into the caves.. Shard saw Eye Tyrants, a massive black Drake, as well as the gates of that mysterious city that day. Furthermore.. it introduced him to several storylines of the people who were there. But most important of all.. everyone who participated had alot of fun. None of this would have been even remotely possible if everyone was too afraid they'd die and take some unbelievable penalty. Another adventure: My first real trip into Maldovia. Shard and Aslyrai fought their way into vampire central. Aslyrai went because he felt it important to destroy these Syn Cursed creatures.. Shard went because he wanted a chance to see the more advanced forms of undead for study purposes. Both knew how dangerous that place was, but they went anyhow. They got all the way up to the castle, eventually fighting a DM controlled higher level vampire, as well as mages. That was quite possibly the most fun I've had so far. Once again.. if I was too afraid of getting my character killed, I wouldn't have agreed to go with Aslyrai.
Roleplay truely is a wonderful thing, but it shouldn't be an excuse for sacrificing gameplay. If you limit everything a player can do with his character, you also limit his ability to roleplay.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying death should pose no real threat. But, time, in it's self is a big enough penalty.
In my opinion, death should be simple: No respawn, but no experience penalties either. The gold cost should be turned into the actual spell reagant cost(or spell reagant its self, can't think of what it is off hand).
When Shard dies, I typically just start playing another character until someone stumbles across his body. This can take days. For instance, the time he died right outside the gates of Icy Vale. His body was there for half a week, *nobody* ran across it. Imagine how much longer it would take if his body was in the middle of a dungeon? Naturally, this leads to metagaming.. but, how is that any different than a character "bumping into" another character.
Firstly, this avoids frustration.. an aspect that takes away enjoyment from the game in the first place. No game should be frustrating. You would fear death, because of the obvious fact.. your character is dead and you can't play him until that's remedied. Considering the massive lack of higher level clerics(and the difficulty of leveling a cleric, due to no real strong point experience wise)... that's a serious threat. Secondly, for someone like me(who never really plays second characters, unless he has a reason to), it gives me a reason to play my other characters.
Anyhow, those are my thoughts on the whole death matter.
Edit: Almost forgot to add; I openly admit to releveling my character for max hitpoints.
In this game, monsters HP aren't rolled. It's an automatic number. Usually, the max number it would normally have or close. The assumption that bringing your hitpoints to max is "lame" is non-sense. It falls into the "in their attempt to make it "Closer to D&D", they break their own rules" area I mentioned above. |
Shard Aerinmane - Spellsword
Avion Bladesaint - Pugilist
Vincent Lawful - Adventurer
"One Color ~ Countless Shades" |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 08:26 PM |
You make some decent points Grey. However, I have had the "realism" discussion too many times to count. In a nutshell, I think "realism" is a good thing, for a whole bunch of reasons, and people who get offended by the word "realism"... well, I'm trying really hard to be nice here...
Your point about making the game too difficult is one of your decent points, but frankly, for me, it is all about expectations. When I played pnp AD&D, I knew that if I died, I would probably be well and truly dead, especially at lower levels. It changed the way I played the game, and generally I think for the better. I still had bundles of fun, but I didn't go walking into situations, if I could help it, that my character couldn't handle. I didn't get ninety percent of my enjoyment from slaughtering things. I had alot fewer battles than I have in NWN, but the ones I did have, were more fun.
Another decent point you make is about reaction times etc. NWN is a real time game, and as such it is much faster than a pnp game, and reaction times and actual physical practise with your keyboard becomes important, especially if you are a spell caster of some sort. This decidedly changes the way you play the game. In a pnp game, you can spend half an hour playing a battle that in NWN might take thirty seconds, so you get alot more enjoyment out of each individual battle in a pnp game. I have had several feelings after important battles in NWN ranging from, "Was that it?" to "What the heck just happened?"
However, for me, much of the joy in role playing of any sort, be it pnp, or computer gaming, isn't from meta gaming, that is, gaming for the sake of the game itself. Meta gaming is solely concerned with game mechanics, with questions like, "How do I kill this or that mob?", and related questions like, "If I put five points into tumble will that allow me to kill mobs more easily than putting those same five points into healing." In the end it is just a numbers game, I have a rude word picture to describe it, but this is a PG 13 environment, so I'll control myself.
For me the purpose of good game mechanics is to facilitate suspension of disbelief. If I have a sword in the game, that "dulls" as a result of game mechanics, that I actually have to "sharpen", that opens a tiny little window in my imagination, a little window that allows me to see into corners of that fantasy world, that I might never have seen into, or thought of otherwise. Now instead of just *sharpening my sword* because it seems like a good "RP" thing to do, *sharpening my sword* actually has meaning in the game. This is realism. Realism brings meta gaming and role playing closer together, in a good way. Realism gives you a foundation to base your role playing on. I'm not saying you can't role play without "realism" in game mechanics, I am simply saying that "realism" in game mechanics enriches role playing.
Having said that, AD&D and NWN are wildly unrealistic, and if I had the time and the skills I would create an rpg in an entirely different way. Would it be any better? Who knows? I would like to think it would be, but so far I haven't had a chance to test my theories, and seeing as I can't code, model, or animate, I'm not likely to ever get that chance with a computer rpg. |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 08:34 PM |
In this game, monsters HP aren't rolled. It's an automatic number. Usually, the max number it would normally have or close. The assumption that bringing your hitpoints to max is "lame" is non-sense. It falls into the "in their attempt to make it "Closer to D&D", they break their own rules" area I mentioned above.
Darn, you beat me to it. Have to agree with that fully. Also as another note if rerolling is such a major concern it Is possible to hide how much one gets on level up. |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 10:53 PM |
Re-rolling isnt a major concern. And to clarify, this is what Llewellyn is referring to by relevelling. Vives does not and will not ever support "relevelling" your character, because of a mistake made "building" the character or whatever.
As for re-rolling, we all know it happens. In the end its a game. It doesnt impair the rp, it levels the playing field a little, so not really all that bothered. Who here hasnt had a situation where theyve run towards a creature, bounced and that creature has had 3 or even 4 attacks of opportunity while you're trying to get your character to back up a step and actually start attacking. NWN is a long way from perfect, so we are not going to get too fascist here. A few extra hp's may help counterbalance such weaknesses in the engine. Personally I do reroll until I get an ok roll...not until I get the max. *shrugs*
Its interesting to read all the above. From the one extreme of death should be final, to the other where should be no xp loss. As usual, we will be looking for a solution whereby death is definitely to be avoided and feared...but not so harsh it spoils the fun of half our player base.
PnP and CRPG's -are- very different. The one will never be the same as the other. Yes this is a rp server. Yes that is our primary focus. But that said...a lot of playing styles exist in Vives and we are not going to criticise or dang someone for daring to play in a way that differs to others. Ive been RP'ing in LRP, PnP, and CRPG's all my life pretty much, and in that time Ive belonged to any number of rp communities where people tried to enforce their way to rp as the "correct" way and became intolerant and clique oriented to anyone that didnt fit their vision. Every time that is allowed to happen it ends up killing the fun and joy of rp'ing in that world/community.
As long as players here love to rp they are welcome to enjoy the other aspects of the "game" too. So yes, we want death to feel more real. But we are not going to introduce really harsh rules to make this happen. When we do put out the guidelines for what we intend we will give a little reasoning with what we have seen wrong with death in Vives to date. That's really the reason for the change, and what we would like to see change. Dying is -not- a good thing. Its not a "oops I died, oh well go make a cuppa and start playing again". :0)
Death may not ever be irrevokable here...but if it was treated as though it might be, avoided at all costs, and if it happens the penalties simply accepted these changes wouldn't be necessary.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: The Death System
Posted: 14 Oct 2004 11:26 PM |
My simple point is this, if you want more guaranteed hitpoints put points into constitution...
So let me get this straight, Vives is saying that it is ok to save my character, level-up, then if I don't like my hitpoints, logout and try again? hmm... |
-Kalos
"When in doubt, tell the truth. It will amaze most people, delight your friends, and confuse your enemies" -Mark Twain
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