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Adventure groups
Posted: 30 Aug 2004 04:56 AM |
First a little background for this post:
My first character on Vives was Zoirenna. She pretty much soloed her way to level 14, while exploring most of Vives areas. She had a bunch of very enjoyable RP encounters along the way, but only two encounters resulted in any real adventuring (ie., not just standing around and RP'ing). The first one was the very interesting adventure that took a group lead by Cantor to steal the stone from Helkris and bring it to Malakai. Unfortunately, at the time, Zoirenna was only level 7 or 8, while her companions were 10 levels higher. Basicly, this meant that Zoi only survived at the mercy of the DMs, and her contribution to the whole thing was limited to spending around 60 healing kits, which was nice for Cantor when he was being trampled by the dragon, but didn't really make Zoi feel much like a sorcerer. The other encounter was a mini-adventure, where Zoi talked Luther into showing her a crypt (without giving too much away here, I'll just say - the one with the hand. This was interesting as well, but again, there were 15 levels difference between Zoi and Luther, and there was really nothing Zoi could contribute that Luther couldn't handle, so she was just along for the sightseeing.
What I really would like, is to go adventuring with a small group of players that is within a relatively close level range of each other. This way, each player can play his class and contribute to outcome of each encounter, and the adventure as a whole. I feel that such adventures provide a lot of opportunity for roleplaying in situations where things actually happen, rather than what I have very often been part of, standing around and roleplaying, but going nowhere, and not really trying to achieve anything. The adventures I have in mind need not be DM run. They only require people to group up with those of roughly equal level.
Another reason people don't do this as much as they could, is because the Vives XP system has no leeway for any difference in character levels in groups.
Since I have become very fond of Vives, I wanted to give this group adventuring a shot. So when I saw a low level dwarf running around, I made a dwarf character, with the intention of catching up the 2-3 levels head start the other dwarf had, and then bumping into him and see if we could form a fun dwarf duo. This became Muradin and Stout (my char), who adventured together from around level 5 to 10. It was great fun, but eventually my summer holiday came to an end, and I now how a lot less time to play, so Muradin will most likely continue his journey on his own from this time, until he finds other travelling companions.
Anyway, to keep this post from growing out of proportion, and to make my main point:
The XP system discourages players from forming adventuring groups with other adventurers if there is any level difference. How significant this is, is individual, based on how important it is for the player to be able to gain character levels.
Proposed solution:
Allow characters of different (but comparable) levels to adventure together without permanently reducing their ability to gain combat XP. (Exactly how this should be implemented I'll leave to the scripters). |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 30 Aug 2004 05:14 AM |
First off just to say I agree with the overall intent of your post, ie to encourage partying up. But I know nothing about scripting so cant begin to tell you if anything can be done about it. Vives was designed for group play far more than solo, and anything that prevents that is not a "good thing". However for as long as things remain the way they are...
"Another reason people don't do this as much as they could, is because the Vives XP system has no leeway for any difference in character levels in groups."
This is not strictly true. Vives does have more leeway than normal NWN. So long as you are within 5 levels of each other the xp hit really is not that serious, and is well worth doing. The only other positive I will add is that Ive seen a lot more low level characters on recently, and new players also. They should soon enough reach your level range so hopefully you will find it easier to meet up with folk...
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 30 Aug 2004 05:57 AM |
Yeah we just have to find each other Even with the excellent player tool it's really hard to find people and when we do it's hard to come up with an IC reason for being there or travelling together.
I think it'll be easier when us newbies learn our way around vives a bit more and feel established enough that we can think of some RP reasons for going to places. |
For every complex problem there is a solution that's simple, neat and wrong. - Henry Louis Mencken |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 30 Aug 2004 06:55 AM |
| Don't be afraid to "bump" into people. There are plenty of things IG that can lead you to others. If there're in or near a town, just asking town NPCs if they've seen any adventurers/elves/artisans around can lead you to them. Out in the wilderness usually there's a trail of corpses to follow even though the corpses don't show up IG. I usually use some RPed mechanism like this to explain how I'm able to "bump" into others. Don't see the PCinfo tool as something totally OOC. It's not. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 30 Aug 2004 06:56 AM |
Yeah we just have to find each other.Even with the excellent player tool it's really hard to find people
I admit this can be hard if you haven't mapped the areas and don't know your way around yet. This should be the first thing you do as a new player, and can be a lot of fun, as long as you are careful .
and when we do it's hard to come up with an IC reason for being there
You don't really need this, your character just happened to decide to go to wherever you see the other people on the stone.
or travelling together.
This is down to your character and the the characters you meet to decide upon IC when you get together. And sometimes even if you did make your way to a large party of people, if they are all elves and you are an evil orc, it's going to have to be a pretty good reason for you to travel together! But some things have to be in the hands of the players and the characters they decide to play.
cheers
Jane |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 30 Aug 2004 09:46 AM |
I would just like to add my two cents even though I'm new and should probably keep my mouth shut.
I have really enjoyed vives as some of you might be aware as I seem to be on so much lately. I was nervous at first about just hooking up with players IG, but when I took that first step, everyone was so great, it became easier each time. Now, I've pushed Shalee onto people whether or not they wanted her. <grin>
My character is only at level 4 and has been adventuring with characters from level 11 and up. They have all been wonderful at keeping her alive even when she does foolish things like run into traps she fails to see and take on monsters much stronger than she is.
As far as getting to know her way around, well...she's been almost everywhere and still couldn't do it, because I have such a terrible sense of direction even IG.
Actually, I guess I just wanted to say thanks to all the people who have been here for a long time for taking Shalee in and helping me develop her through rping. Of course, I think she could do without the curse....oh well. ;P |
Shalee Windwalker.....wife of Chandler, Ranger, Cleric of Elbereth
Alianda - Change can happen.
Lara - half-elven Ranger, trying to reshape her life
Tia - Cleric of Vilyave
"Delicious Ambiguity" |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 30 Aug 2004 11:12 AM |
Does XP matter that much though? I mean yeah, it's nice to be rewarded for killing stuff but if it's more fun for you to party up with people than solo anyway, what matter the XP? The fun's its own reward surely. :p
On another note, just had the best session on Vives that I've had yet, and met lots of other PCs.Thanks to all who put up with my very annoying halfling! I do really like the place, and am having a lot of fun just being able to play my character, even without anyone else around.And without having to go into combat either - and have I mentioned before how much I love the Vives XP system? *giggles* It's such a gorgeous world though, which does make it easier to RP in seeing as it does actually feel very detailed and realistic.
Anyway, I hope I'll be spending quite a bit more time here. Possibly with some less annoying characters...She's just a good one for getting a feel for the place, and for learning my way as a player round Vives, 'coz it is huge compared to what I'm used to! One of the worries I have/had about starting in Vives was being expected to know everything about the place - for instance, choosing the origin of the PC at the start means I should really know all about that origin, but I don't actually have a clue! But playing a pretty dappy, unintelligent character makes that at least a little bit easier.
*ends ramble* ;) |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 30 Aug 2004 12:31 PM |
Of course, I think she could do without the curse....oh well. ;P
Whats wrong with it??? |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 30 Aug 2004 12:46 PM |
Nothing...it's just all my characters seem to end up cursed one way or another.....
It's actually been fun playing around it, It's given her more depth.
I'm having a great time with it. |
Shalee Windwalker.....wife of Chandler, Ranger, Cleric of Elbereth
Alianda - Change can happen.
Lara - half-elven Ranger, trying to reshape her life
Tia - Cleric of Vilyave
"Delicious Ambiguity" |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 31 Aug 2004 06:33 AM |
I would just like to add my two cents even though I'm new and should probably keep my mouth shut.
Not at all. No matter how hard we try its difficult to remember how Vives operated for us older players when we were newbies (especially if changes are made). The only way we will ever know is if new players tell us.
Just my thoughts. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 31 Aug 2004 06:57 AM |
I read the rules for posting in the Feedback topic, but since it seems nobody follows them anyway.. here goes:
Quote:
"Does XP matter that much though? I mean yeah, it's nice to be rewarded for killing stuff but if it's more fun for you to party up with people than solo anyway, what matter the XP? The fun's its own reward surely. "
Yes. I don't care if I get pretty lousy xp or even zero xp when grouping with others. But I DO care about the fact that if there are higher level characters in the group, any killing will result in a permanent disability for my character to earn combat xp, be it in groups of equal level or solo, at a later date.
I know, from the flames thread, that some people at least, do care about the ability to continue levelling their characters.
This issue is particularly interesting for me, as I would like to do more adventuring in groups, as opposed to standing around (or sitting at the inn, etc.) when interacting with other players.
Would it be against the spirit of Vives to make public the xp formula used for modifying combat xp rewards in groups based on character levels? |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 31 Aug 2004 07:15 AM |
While I don't even pretend to understand the formula used, it has been posted and is being discussed actively on the dm forums. Give it time, but this is an issue that is being looked into...and as said before, Vives is already definitely a lot more friendly to partying than normal NWN when within 5 lvls of each other. But we are still looking at ways of improving things as the level spread has got bigger.
But a few adventures outside of the 5 level spread wont hurt your character advancement that much, especially as a spellcaster whose predominant source of xp is exploration and spellcasting which is totally unaffected by partying up.
Expect further updates in time from the more techie people! *grins*
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 31 Aug 2004 11:25 AM |
| maybe a solution to the problem would be to keep track of the experience awarded similar to how you guys keep track of how much experience points one has gained from picking locks. Let's say you can gain 5000 points in total from picking locks, then maybe it would be suitable to put a pool on every monster as well, like 1000 or 2000 points. That way characters could still gain (good) experience points from a high level monster when they are strong enough, even if they have been fighting it for 5 point gains earlier in their career with high level PCs in the party. |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 31 Aug 2004 02:48 PM |
That was my idea...
The "Overkill" Exp reductions should curve based on the EXP rewarded, but they are based on the amount slain....This is the Major Cause of Stagnancy caused in the Mid level range that Aesir brought up a few months ago.
Let me explain a few things for this burst of new players. Beware of Cynicism... Just remember that I love Vives.. and you should too *grins*
Roleplay is... a major focus in Vives.. and players are encouraged to RP rather than to solo(not that they are polar opposites). Occasionally Active roleplay is rewarded with EXP bonuses... which is nice.. but this is Encouragement, and not drive, as the DM's have said that Players should not be pursuing RP expecting EXP handouts. The gist of the Vives RP situation is a sad one, though, because much of the richest RP actually Penalizes the Vives player base by removing Potential EXP ((see #3 below))... usually without the notice of those being penalized (until it's too late). This is a Harsh thing to say, but let me explain.
Vives is currently utilizing an overkill EXP penalty. However, due to the manner it has performed in the Working world, I'd view it more as.... "Vives is currently utilizing an underkill exp bonus". A certain creature's Given EXP gain will diminish for a given player over the course of several monster kills. This Decrease occurs at the very first kill... which, in my opinion ruins the "overkill prevention" concept of the forumala's device very early. If the intention is to prevent overkill farming, then a penalty should be applied to an "overkilled" populace. The Penalty has a limit, however, and the EXP reductions will stop at a certain Minimum exp rate. This Minimum is now a fixed EXP rate... and the full penalty is now permanently in place for this particular creature. Let me use a few Models, to illustrate. (Disclaimer: This is all guess work, and none of this is actual data, so don't be expecting these exact curves in game.)
Klum Zeegai, a level 1 Fighter, aspires to be a smith, but is looking for a master to apprentice. He isn't very well versed in combat... (lev1) and is not sure he can begin mining in the harsh and dangerous mountains, so he finds the Legendary Elven Miner Daimon Rabianara(lev18) to show him how to Mine, and give him a few smithing tips.
Orc, also a level 1 fighter, lives Near the mines. If Klum were to slay Orc.... the curve would be as follows....
200 exp for first kill. 180 for the second kill... 160.... 140... 120.....100....80...60..40...and finally 20 would be the fully penalized amount. For the rest of Klum's level 1 life, Killing Orc(s) will only yield 20 exp each. No matter how many Orc(s) Slain, this Minimum amount is now the fixed rate.
However.. in this instance, Legendary Swordsman Daimon Rabianara ((*grins*)) Has agreed to escort Klum... and since "Angel Guarding" a Young character with an experienced character is discouraged ((Also known as Twinking)) Daimon Invites Klum into his party, so that Klum receives Party penalized exp for the orcs Daimon kills. While Daimon is in the party... exp gains for "Orc" are as follows....
10 exp for first kill... 9 for second kill... 8 for Third kill...8.....7.......7......6......6.....and finally ending on 5 exp per orc kill in the party with Daimon. These party based penalties are scaled on Character level difference... and prevents Daimon from killing a bunch of very strong opponents for Klum.. and giving him massive experience, with little danger/effort. In this instance... maximum penalty has been reached for the Species "Orc" and should he leave Daimon's Party.. and kill Orcs on his own.. (in first level) He will now receive 20 exp for every one... as per the solo curve illustrated initially. I see several very large problems with this.
1. The exp overkill curve is designed to prevent overkill... overkill is usually reached around 30 creatures or so... in my illustration, I used only like... 10... for the purpose of illustration. The Vives Team discourages "EXP farming" or... the repeated slayings of one particular area (farm) of creatures for a swift level gain... rather than a labourous (lots of work) and Spontaneous (never knowing where that last 100 is coming from) level gain. As one of Vives Veteran Players..... and Seasoned Miner (groan) I HATE farming... It is a waste of precious human time, and we have Better things to do on this earth (The Real one) besides Farming in some Neverwinter Nights PW... at least I like to think so. However... This system does not discourage overkill... it almost encourages it. Overkill should be a defined number set by the Vives Mathematics (ie, Don't kill more than 30 guys of this species, because we want you to go kill something else, so.... here are consequences), But the Formula begins applying a penalty on First kill. Also.... once Overkill has been reached (~30 guys) A Maxiumum penalty is now in full force... meaning You will no longer be penalized by.. killing the same creature...
I just find this counterintuitive to intent.
2. The Vives Player base has become so... familiar with EXP gains enforced by this full penalty, that a deviation (IE, Fresh kill) Is more of an unexpected bonus, as opposed to a Standard... Non-penalized Gain. Most of the Veteran Player Base.... Daimon (My Character) included... has incurred full overkill penalty on about 99% of the creatures in Vives.... and are now very used to leveling entirely off of minumum exp values (Like... 5 exp per creature with 100% Combat exp)... by... well... Farming. Once Exp gains get that low.. the only way to advance... at all.. is to Take it in millions of small chunks. Daimon Receives 4 exp from killing an ogre... 4 exp from killing a Mountain Giant.. and 4 exp from killing a Forgorn Gargantuan, the last of which... even he does not have a chance of soloing. (They hit really hard, and have like DC 50 knockdowns) Fortunately.. since all of these values are... bare minimums, according to the variables in the formuala... he receives the exact same values while partied... and thus... has very limited party penalty... (unless he goes and kills stuff with his old pal Luther, level ~31, during which.. they give him 3 instead of 4) which brings me to my last point.
3. This Relates to my Penalized for RP mention earlier, and the EXP pool Mr.Pink Mentioned.. Let us refer to our friend Klum.. and his mining Partner... Daimon Rabianara... Now... Daimon parties up with Klum during his first visit to the mountains... where they kill 10 orcs. Daimon Does most of the killing... as Klum could likely perish if he killed them alone. As a reward... Klum gains 61 EXP .... and reaches his full overkill penalty. Should Klum return the next day, a braver and finer equipped warrior.... and kills another 10... alone.... he would gain himself a good 200 exp.. for doing the job alone... at a full penalized value of 20 exp each, Assuming he lives through the experience. Unfortunately... Klum is New to Vives, and doesn't realize that Vives has a huge Level based party exp penalty... and doesn't realize the whole time he was talking with Daimon about Smelting Iron, and his old family line of smiths, he was actually missing out big time... while Daimon carved all the "underkill bonus" out of his future With a Steel rapier.... Now... Klum now has 261 EXP from killing orcs.. and is well on his way to level 2... at 1000 exp. Now... let's go back to the past... before Klum Met Daimon....
Klum Zeegai, a level 1 Fighter, aspires to be a smith, but is looking for a master to apprentice. He isn't very well versed in combat... (lev1) and is not sure he can begin mining in the harsh and dangerous mountains, so he finds a pair of level 1 dwarves to go Mining for him. The Three of them head to the Mountains... and by virtue of strength of numbers... all three of them kill 10 orcs.... only... by being a 3 person party of equal level... a 10% exp penalty is applied. Now... the EXP gain curve for all 3 of the level 1 fighters is as follows...
180 for the first (200-20) 162(180-18) for the second... 144 for the third.... 126... 108 ...90.... 72.... 54....36..... and finally 18.
Well Hot dang... after 10 Orcs... all three of these 1st level warriors have gained 990 EXP... and assuming they all started with 0 exp.. (you can't even get out of the Four winds without gaining this much *grins*) they only have 10 exp to go to level... which is cake. Compare this to the Klum who made friends with Daimon... who has killed 20 orcs already... and has another 44 orcs or so to kill alone before he can level. Kinda wish Daimon had been busy Mining somewhere else that day instead of bumping into you at Midor... Didn'cha?
This kind of High Level partying happens every day in Vives... usually for very important RP reasons... and is a serious detriment to the RP of the server as a whole.. because... even though Klum could go kill something else.... he'd have to farm another 44 orcs, or even more if he met up with a few dwarves((who would both level before the 10th)) assuming he doesn't die and respawn and lose half his exp anyways. Now... What Mr.Pink is suggesting, what I've suggested for a very long time... is using a pooled Bonus exp system... to use the amount of EXP gained from a creature to incorperate future Overkill penalties. I'd have suggested it earlier... but.. as you can see from Points #1 and #2 above... I don't think the Overkill system is quite delivering its purpose anyways... so to introduce complex mathematics in relating it to the party formula seemed kind of... funny to me... like finally replacing a broken power chord on a lamp with a burned out bulb... and not changing the bulb for a long while after that. Nevertheless, if a pooled system were integrated.. it could work as follows...
According to Klums solo Orc kill Progression... he has... 1100 (First 10 Orcs) -200(10 Base orcs, or 10 fully penalized )... = 900 Bonus points.... if we are all looking at 20 as base solo gain, and 200(First kill) as 20+180 underkill bonus points. These 900 points are distributed amongst the first 9 kills as a curved underkill bonus.... and are distributed as follows... +180 for the first, +160 for the second +140 for the third... Which is a Finite Arithmetic series... Which is a bad example... because I think the actual formula uses a Geometric series... but nevertheless... 900 points distributed. After Gaining the 61 EXP with Daimon.... this Bonus would normally be negated to 0... as per my example.. and Base rate would be reached... but, if this 900 points was used as a pool... Then the 61 would be reduced from it... leaving 839 bonus points to be distributed acrossed underkill gains. This makes practical sense, as... if Daimon kills all your orcs for you.. you learn a little bit about killing orcs, but would still learn a lot more the next time you do it on your own. Then.... The newly depleted pool... 839.. could be distributed in the same series... to ultimately deliver the +900 +20*(x number of orcs ever slain) that a level 1 hero deserves by virtue of the overkill system. Therefore, gaining a hero Bonus experience, whether he decides to fight them alone, or with a party, at various times, the overkill penalty will be incurred after a fixed amount of EXP is Gained... in this case 900... These are all reduced after the character gains a level, naturally.. of course... just another ratio outside of the equation. If I knew a bit more about ASCII Characters, I could probably put the series into a Finite Arithmetic Sigma notated series,.. but I'd really rather have the real summands used in game before messing around with the curves.
The current system, however, almost encourages loners... and self-sufficient warriors... mostly because of the present player base. I've seen enough Soloists make it a hell of a lot farther in Vives (not that I'm encouraging) simply because they don't mess around with stuff out of their league in a party beyond their talents until they mess around with it alone when it is within their league. For these people... it's just a matter of grabbing those first bonus "underkill" points and moving on to fresh targets. Most of the Higher level Vives player base has been in too many Large Scale RP events with whole server parties of varying levels to deplete the "underkill" exp given for most creatures before they even get a high enough level to benefit from their ability to challenge these creatures in small groups of more reasonable levels.
The current system, I admit... does seem to Encourage partying, in theory. The Penalties for Partying are small.. Like those dwarves Klum decided to hang out with... and Survival chances go way up in a party, which is good... because Vives has the Harshest Death penalties I've ever seen (Except for Permadeath) but this is only in Theory. The Harshest factor to consider.. is the one that started this thread... When Klum logs onto the World of Vives... chances are... he's going to be much more likely to run into 18 level No-life Daimon, who is going to go mine, then a pair of equal level adventurers willing to fight with him...
I should.. probably stop talking.... |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 31 Aug 2004 03:54 PM |
Can I just say though that the XP system on Vives really is /so/ much better than the XP system on most PWs. The one I usually DM (but am taking some time away from) relies essentially on 2 ways of gaining XP - combat, or DM given RP reward. As we all know DMs can't be on 24/7, which means that even though we can still see when people are RPing, a lot of people feel they have to fight to advance, and they tend not to be patient enough to wait for the DM rewards - which, when they do come, are well deserved. But there, again, is the mentality that it is all about XP, and that XP is the reward for RPing, not the RP in itself. On that server I /want/ to reward people for RP, and people who powergame up the levels don't get the rewards that RPers do - the levels are there for the taking if you want to PG, but if you do, you lose out a /lot/ longterm in terms of involvement with the world, DM interaction, and DM rewards.
But...one of the problems there as I see it is simply that players just aren't patient enough, especially if they see a ton of mid to high level characters running around - it gets very easy to get in the mindset that you have to have a character of that level to get involved. Some of those characters took 6 months or more to get to a mid-high level, but they don't know that when they start, (and also, for every character that did take that long there are several who managed the same in under a month ) and feel they have to be a high level to be included in anything that happens - so they rush to high levels. There is no longer such an acceptance of the approach that DMs reward RP over time, or that RP is its own reward, or that RPers advance slower but gain more from it in the end.
I don't know what the attitude towards this is on Vives though - are those who advance slowly and focus on RP rather than power rewarded for it over time more than those who don't, in the long term? Also, what is DM interaction like in terms of low level interaction? Is there a balance between interaction with newbies/low levels and higher levels/more established characters? This is something that has come up again and again while I've been a DM on Thain, and something that in my experience has really helped has been providing DM interaction for newbies/low levels, drawing them into the story/stories of the world. In this way the myth that they have to be high level to get involved in the world and with DMs is, over time, dispelled. (Disclaimer: I'm really hypothesising here...I haven't been around long enough to see how things work on Vives in terms of DM interaction, so it's just me throwing some stuff out there! Please ignore the newbie's waffling if you prefer)
At least on Vives though, there are other ways of gaining XP - crafting, casting spells, picking locks, exploring - it's a lot richer in that respect and it does mean you can actually make characters that can get away with doing very little in the way of combat, and therefore do not necessarily have to be powerful in the first place in order to advance.
I love the XP system here, it really is the best system I've seen yet. I'm having a lot of fun just wandering around RPing with the surroundings though (and thanks to whichever DM responded to my IC DM channel message earlier by the way!) - it is very easy to immerse yourself in Vives because it's such a gorgeous and rich world to wander round in, without even thinking of the XP. Even wandering around RPing on my own is fun - though I'm sure it'll lose some of its charm eventually, but it'll take a while with so much to explore!
One thing I would say though, is it's probably not a good idea to discourage RP between high and low levels. I would not personally be put off by partying with high levels for RP reasons, XP or no XP. However it's also worth bearing in mind that if you don't want to "party" with them, you surely don't have to...? Partying is an OOC mechanic to share XP, really, and to allow you to see people on the map/talk in party channel, all of which is OOC. So you can travel with people without partying with them. That means that when they kill something it wouldn't impact on your personal XP gain from killing that creature - which is right, really, because you learn a lot less by watching someone do something than by doing it yourself. I don't think adventuring groups is such a problem in this respect because if you don't want to use the OOC mechanic, there is no obligation to do so - travelling together is what makes it IC, IMHO, not "partying up". :)
Yas |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 31 Aug 2004 03:56 PM |
no...do go on
(lol)
seriously though, ive thought about this myself.
but couldnt possibly have put it like that.
:) |
If you catch a butterfly.
You can either keep it and watch it die.
Or let it go and watch it fly away.
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 31 Aug 2004 04:01 PM |
the reason my chr. is bogged down in the mid levels is because i spend 95 % of my time talking rubbish with a bunch of mentalists and 5 % adventuring....
and i wouldnt dream of changing it
Cheers everyone |
If you catch a butterfly.
You can either keep it and watch it die.
Or let it go and watch it fly away.
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 31 Aug 2004 07:42 PM |
| I would just like to add I'm new and a low level character and I have had lots of DM interaction. The higher level characters have also been wonderful in helping my character gain XP. The rping is the best part of Vives I feel, even when I don't gain physical XP for her, I'm gaining for myself as a player. Thanks for being so patient with Shalee. I'm having a great time. |
Shalee Windwalker.....wife of Chandler, Ranger, Cleric of Elbereth
Alianda - Change can happen.
Lara - half-elven Ranger, trying to reshape her life
Tia - Cleric of Vilyave
"Delicious Ambiguity" |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 31 Aug 2004 09:13 PM |
Thanks for all the player feedback regarding Combat Experience Point awards and related topics.
The Vives team is actively reviewing the awards system with respect to some of the issues raised here in this thread (and others, raised internally). We would like to point out that changes to the system in one area impacts several seemingly unrelated systems of the module.
The impact hits not only at a technical level, but may also be felt at at the storyline level. For example, an increase in overall PC CL may change - or even restrict - possible outcomes in major plotline events. This scenario puts game mechanics at odds with the story-driven focus of Vives.
That said, the experience point awards system implemented in Vives is heavily customized with the intent of awarding based on core objectives of the team. One of the foundation concepts of this vision, if you will allow, includes promoting player character groups and socialization in combat and non-combat scenarios. During this review, we are looking at the experience system from several angles and discussing options that may improve upon our existing ability to meet such core objectives.
While it is impossible for us to confirm at this point possible implementations or time-frame of change (if any), it is possible that this review leads to changes in the Combat Experience Point awards - and related systems - in the future. |
Eyes In The Skies
Looking at you, I can read your mind. |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 01 Sep 2004 03:33 AM |
Thanks for all the player feedback regarding Combat Experience Point awards and related topics.
The Vives team is actively reviewing the awards system with respect to some of the issues raised here in this thread (and others, raised internally). We would like to point out that changes to the system in one area impacts several seemingly unrelated systems of the module.
The impact hits not only at a technical level, but may also be felt at at the storyline level. For example, an increase in overall PC CL may change - or even restrict - possible outcomes in major plotline events. This scenario puts game mechanics at odds with the story-driven focus of Vives.
Yes, I understand this much. I'm quite pleased with the Experience system in Vives. My only concern was bringing a few details about Combat experience points (Which I would say have become the main source of experience for almost every class, no matter the % of combat based awards. There are exceptions, of course, and I'm certainly one of them... these days I earn much more Roleplay reward exp then combat based exp.) as well as a few relations and concepts I believed that certain members of the community, both new players and DMs, deserved to understand.
I understand that Concepts always work differently in practice then in theory, and it is the responsibility of the playerbase to make the powers that be aware of several aspects of the working world, in function. As for a restriction on RP plotline availiability because of an advance of overall PC CL, well, most of the changes I would change would actually likely reduce player exp acquisition, especially with the overkill penalties I had in mind. My main concern comes from being properly rewarded for certain actions. A matter of each player getting what they deserve in terms of fortune, essentially leaving an underlying factor most players are not aware of, out of the scene. Ultimately, due to complex mechanics, a character with a heightened level climbrate would have to come up with several ooc excuses for taking various actions in Vives, and maintaining the security of acquiring the combat exp they were originally intended to receive anyway. If you'd like me to make one such character, I could show you how the underlying system encourages the actions that many IG DM's will try to prevent (IE Leave this place, you don't belong here), and how the character would behave very oddly, in a detriment to the overall RP atmosphere of Vives, in accordance to the underlying mathematics within the combat exp system.
Most characters in Vives Will join a high level party, and have that party kill Ettins Long long before that character:
Is the ideal character level range where Ettin EXP is a fair gain
Will have slain ettins in a party without a large party penalty that will completely remove the so called "underkill" bonus points present in Vives.
Therefore, Roleplaying excuses such as. "I'm sorry.. I can't go with you to meet your friend, I've never fought Ettins before, and the first time I fight them, I want to be well prepared, and learn much from the party, rather than have you kill them for me, and... ruin the fun of battle...." Would be very prevalent in the Vives Player base. I'm not Saying the creative Minds of Vives cannot RP such aspects. The vives player base IS more focused on RP than combat....However, I've seen several characters join Vives... Go through a fairly solo life (usually due to online player numbers) during which they may come to grasp the concepts I explain here very soon. Most of these Players react in such ways as "Well, that's kind of weird, *shrugs*" and play along with it. These characters proceed to... fit this model of ideal and efficient combat exp gains, rise to fairly high levels with.... poor amounts of RP.. before growing bored of the server, and leaving, having never even experienced most of what Vives has to offer.
I have said that these underlying mathematics do have a detrimental effect on the RP of Vives, and I know that many people will think "That doesn't matter, Vives is more RP focused that Combat exp focused anyways, and if someone isn't, perhaps they don't belong here."
While this is true in many aspects, I'd rather the mechanics are changed to Encourage and promote Roleplay, so that Combat exp and Active "Non combat" (Like following a bunch of players through the Ettin forest) Roleplaying events can coexist in perfect symbiosis, instead of bluntly overcoming this obstacle for the sake of RP.
<quoteThat said, the experience point awards system implemented in Vives is heavily customized with the intent of awarding based on core objectives of the team. One of the foundation concepts of this vision, if you will allow, includes promoting player character groups and socialization in combat and non-combat scenarios. During this review, we are looking at the experience system from several angles and discussing options that may improve upon our existing ability to meet such core objectives.
</quote>
As the Finest Armor smith, and weapon smith in Vives, to play during my participation here, and also the individual said to be the finest, if not only Roleplayer to actually roleplay crafting(likely with exception to Elvalia's recent actions), I've engaged in More Non combat activity and socialization than a very large portion of vives. I'm not trying to sell anything here, I'm just being honest. I am also not complaining when I have said that while all my friends were engaging in fun party filled Vives Math encouraged Dungeon Crawling, during my first few months here, I was usually Back logged with several orders during the extensive time I spent learning how to smith.
Though I never received any RP exp rewards (nor expected them) during any of my fitting sessions, or my lengthly alloy blendings, I continued to spend most of my time conducting a business that didn't turn anything near a profit, just to help what was, at the time, a mess of an economy, and to promote roleplay in Gear implementation (Also known as Lewt) and provide a support towards the illusion of a fully integrated realistic society and economy within the complex world of the Vives Market. I regret none of my actions, and I know that almost everyone I serviced appreciated them, and that my efforts helped strengthen Vives, by much of the feedback I received. I understand that Daimon's life would have been much different in had I chosen to engage in other activities. Sometimes I regret my lack of "powergaming" habits. Even with 100% combat exp.. it took me a week to get the last 500 points for my recent level, and before Trouble erupted in Midor.. Daimon was seldom seen elsewhere.
I can say that the mathematics have discouraged me from my Non combat RP scenarios. I can also say that for all the RP I have engaged in in the past.. I am finally paying the price by having my options of exp level advancement, which would previously be a very broad array, reduced to combat farming... which I still, for the most part, refuse to engage in. (Thus the 500 for a week, which I finally fulfilled with RP exp) My only Point is that these underlying mathematics do not deliver the product they are intricately customized to deliver, and instead, the aspects it controls must instead be controlled by a free DM.
The Suggestions I make would simply add penalties in the right places, and deliver the original intent that the existing formulas were laid in to place for.
Alright.. before I get everyone here to hate me... I'll... bring this topic to rest. I'm not certain that my point was delivered, or that my facts presented the case correctly.. both of these posts were made during states of Mental exhaustion, and I fear the lack of sleep is going to have a negative impact on the content of the post, and the reputation I have here in Vives. |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 01 Sep 2004 03:55 AM |
No system is perfect, and I think in the end there is only so much a system can do to make up for a human descision that takes into account all circumstances.
I can only suggest that hopefully as the player base increases, and DM coverage with it, that DMs can go around looking for people who are RPing regardless of consequences for xp and work with them to make their game experience satisfying.
On the PW I DM with Yasmyn, one of the discussions the players (and DMs) are having is about the nature of 'rewards'. While this started as a sort of 'are we making sure RPs still get xp' thread (which Thain goes out of the way to do, but largly via DM intervention) it's developed into a more thorough 'what are the rewards that people really want?'
It brings up some interesting points, for example, do RPers really want xp as a reward? There is a lot you can say about the fun of developing a character mechanically, as that's part of D&D, but it is argued that some/most RPers are actually far more interested in establishing themselves in the game world, and growing in that respect instead.. gaining reputation. Again this could just be something like title, or it could have in game benifits such as access to different areas, certain standing with NPCs etc.
So back to adventure groups. Vives is a strictly RP server, and as such XP gained should not be a primary concern for anyone (IMO), however to please some people the system should at least allow character development to continue. There is always an issue of watching other people and if someone else shoots up the levels it can be very disheartening. But what can be done about it? I don't know.. Really cut down the amount of xp gained from combat and stop the diminishing return of xp?
I guess some of it might come down to the nanny state - could you just tell people that killing the same monsters over and over again is bad RP? Then if you see people doing it punish them as DMs in some way? I just feel that if you need a mechanic to curb this kind of thing then it's bad in the first place - Vives shouldn't be the kind of place where people would want to farm to gain xp. If they do it suggests either they are the wrong kind of player for vives, or they feel there are no other benifits to vives than the hope of gaining levels. Back to rewards.
I'd better stop. Not had coffee yet :p |
For every complex problem there is a solution that's simple, neat and wrong. - Henry Louis Mencken |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 01 Sep 2004 04:43 AM |
The thing is while Vives most certainly -is- an RP server, and that should be the primary focus of all concerned...we also try hard to suit all playing styles. As such it is not deemed bad RP for someone to search for items, to go hunting, to value xp and levels, etc, etc. As long as doing any of these things does not become totally all consuming, and they enjoy rp'ing at least as much, there is no real problem with these attitudes.
Yes if someone starts farming, and seems to be -only- playing for these pursuits then it is a problem and is addressed with that player. But some of the people I have enjoyed rp'ing with the most in this world rank very, very high on the xp and total number of kills list. There is no reason Vives cannot suit both the type of character that rarely enters combat, and the sort of character whose purpose in life is to fight the good, or evil, fight.
And it is a basic tenet of D&D that combat = xp = more levels. We try to counterbalance that in Vives to an extent, but nonetheless to reach a "high" level would require a reasonable amount of combat...or a lot of patience and time IG as well as some very good rp and contributions to the world.
As for the point of prestige, ranks and other rewards than xp, it is something that has been discussed amongst the DM's. I/we certainly see the benefits to doing so. To play devils advocate though...the problems this can cause are significant. How do you tell a player that has put a lot of time and effort into something that they are not seen as being a good enough rp'er to be entitled to whatever reward they seek? How do you stop a player lording it over others, or being perceived as doing so. How do you stop feelings of DM favouritism. While its a lovely idea...it really can cause bad feeling for these and a whole host of other reasons and as such is something we have to be very careful of. That's not to say its never done...but I for one would be very cautious of it being introduced on a wide scale.
The rewards we try to give instead are in the very nature of the world itself. If we as DM's bring this world to life, and create stories that immerse the players, then the xp and other rewards become a side issue to the majority of players. It has been one of my personal joys since I started DM'ing to lurk IG as a DM whilst busy IRL, and check back every now and then just to see players sitting around at the tavern or wherever discussing events that Sol and I ran several days ago, or discussing an ongoing storyline. The fact that the world is so alive, and our stories continue when we and the other DM's arent even around is fantastic. And that hopefully is the reward that brings back our players for hundreds, even thousands of hours IG. That and the fact that the players do love to rp and tell their own stories as well.
And that is the other thing. No matter how many DM's there are, I doubt we will ever have dm events being run the majority of the time. As such Vives needs to offer other entertainment. Ara, pd and the other builders put a simply breath taking amount of time and effort into making it so Vives -is- a fantastic world to play in at all times. Be it crafting, interacting with other players or simply trying to explore every location (good luck!) Vives is a living world most of the time...even when no DM or other players are on, there should be plenty to do and see.
Anyway, Im starting to waffle...hope some of my points make sense...
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 01 Sep 2004 05:23 AM |
I'm a new player - and my input should be taken as that (I still have yet to kill my first creature :)).
But I have some experience in making xp-systems for a more action-oriented module - and as such - this is very much tuned towards balance and party vs. solo xp. The idea is that 'nannying' (a high level character helping out a low-level character) is purposely nerfed and that partying is encouraged.
The problem with the dimishing xp from number of creatures slain could be solved by simply giving 0 xp and no kill (for the diminishing xp) to the low-level character - it simply does not count for the low-level character. This discourages going with the high-level character for anything other than roleplay. (The RP-reason would be: "Hey, how did you do that" *looks at whirling blades connecting several times in a blur of a combat* *jaw drops*).
Hehe - but I recognize the validity and the reasons behind the diminishing xp-return from the same critter, but in order to learn anything from something - you'd still have to have the basic concepts right before you can learn from it (I had a math-teacher explain me the concepts of the 7th and 8th dimension while in college... I'm not entirely sure if I didn't actually get more stupid during that...). And since the best equivalent to learning something is the darned xp... well, this principle should be valid for that.
But to get back to the xp-system we ended up using - you calculate the given xp from the highest level (as I understand it is here as well) - then deduct 30% for every party member (23% for the next and so on) - if you are more than 5 levels from the highest level - you receive 0. This limit is neglected if you are an epic character (since from our tests it didn't really have any significant difference between e.g. a level 21st and a level 28th in terms of usefullness in combat). This results in it being roughly 50% more productive to be in a party of 2 - peaking at about double the efficiency around 4-5 then sloping down again. Couple it with the diminishing thingy and the combat modifier - and I believe it would work well. |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 01 Sep 2004 06:03 AM |
| Oh, I have no problem with the Party level variation penalty present on Vives.. I think it's perfect... It just doesn't mix with the Diminishing Exp gains. |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Adventure groups
Posted: 02 Sep 2004 05:41 AM |
Veran, after those other posts, I'm amazed that you can put your finger on the problem in such a succinct sentence.
Party level variation penalty and diminishing xp gains do not mix.
If the world was black and white, and players were either roleplayers or powergamers, then all this would not be an issue. However, people inevitably fall in between extremes, which means that while players on Vives tend to enjoy roleplaying over powerplaying, they also take character levelling into consideration when playing. To which extent is up to each of us.
I do appreciate the fact that the world functions better with character level advancement dropping off somewhere in the teens. If the majority of the player population was level 20+, it would be nothing special to be an epic character, and DM storylines would be affected (limited?).
I started this thread for two or three reasons. I wanted state what Veran put so succinctly, and which I summed up, above. I was slightly frustrated that Zoirenna's options for levelling (which allows her to explore further on her own) were becoming increasingly limited (ie., suicidal). I want to adventure in groups, not just with Zoirenna, but also making new characters and adventure in low level groups, and I feel that the xp penalties for party variation are too harsh when combined with the diminishing return system.
Currently, my thoughts are:
- Make a pair of new characters together with another player. Only play those characters when both players are online; This allows the PCs to have a closely linked background from character creation. I have seen this done with great results on other PWs. The added benefit on Vives would be that these characters would always be of equal (or near equal) level, which is a good idea for the purpose of the diminishing xp return system.
- Play with Zoirenna when not playing with the character duo. |
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