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Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 12:07 PM |
Most of the people reading this post will have never seen me post before, so even seen me in game; even if they have, then it has only been for only very short periods of time. I run a very busy lifestyle, and so do not have as much time to spend interacting with the Vives community as I would like. I do however still care for the community and am in close contact with several of the members. Because of this, I am kept fairly up to date on the latest polictics of the server. A number of issues are often repeating themselves in conversation, and I believe that it is coming to the point where somebody needs to make some points public to get things sorted as leaving the DMs to sort things for themselves is achieving nothing.
The main point which needs to be raised is the idea of having rules AND enforcing them. This is closely linked with the way in which players interact with each other and IC.
The players handbook states in the section dealing with PvP conflicts that:
"All involved parties should be willing participants. Through OOC PM's they
can query each other on how far they want to escalate their conflict. This
information should of course be kept OOC and not in any way influence the
action of the PC's. On the same line however, those characters that delight in
getting under the skin of others should not hide behind this guideline and
should face Poor Roleplay XP loss if they try to do so. They should be
prepared for the consequences of their behaviour."
There are some players on this server who deliberately set out to "pick" on an individual or group of individuals without the concent of all parties involved. If they are then caught, they then protest their innocence through "It was all in character". This is clearly not enough if we are all following the rules stated in the handbook, but for some reason, the player and character then get away with this crime.
But worse still, because of this sort of "in character" behaviour, some are then even dubbed good roleplayers by not only some other players, but DM's as well. This is enabling some characters to literally get away with murder!
Though this quote is taken from a section describing PvP comabat and killing, I would have thought that the same rule should apply any PvP actions just through plain courtesy. Following other characters around and steeling their hard earned loot without their players (not characters) prior knowledge. This, to me, is not only rude but malicious against the other character and player.
The rule quoted above is put in place to ensure that all members of Vives enjoy their experiences within Vives, and do not feel picked upon or singled out in any way. If another player/character were to act in the same way to one of the incosiderate players described above as the incosiderate player does to others, then the incosiderate player is always the first to moan to the DM's or to other DM's if they are a DM themselves.
The second point which I wish to bring to peoples attention is that when players/characters are caught breaking rules or bringing OOC conflics into the game, or being malicious to others in anyway, it seems very rare that they are punished. Breaches of serious rules and etiquette are refered to the DM's as a whole to decide upon punishment. This, I do believe, is a good idea. The only problem is that the DM's are currently devided into little "support groups". Some DM's like the idea that characters and players can do whatever they like as long as it is in character whether the player on the recieving end has concented or not. Other DM's believe that players of characters in Vives should all be considerate in the way in which they play their characters so that everybody in Vives can have a good time. Some DM's are too involved in their own polictics which concearns DM's and personnal gripes only to worry about the troubles of any players, or the greatly needed punishment of those who deserve it.
I write this post to express not only my current feelings towards Vives, but more so in an effort to save it. I enjoy Vives whenever I get the time to visit and would hate for it to fall into the same trap in which many other PW's have fallen... trying to please all players and playing styles all of the time.
I fully except the fact that this post is likely to be flamed, or to be taken as a personnal attack by some members. It is not meant in this way, although I am fully prepared for any consequences of posting these thoughts. But my time taken and any punishments/flames/etc... from this post will be worth it if people take these thoughts on board and save Vives from falling.
Many thanks for the time you have taken to read this.
---
Chiron
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 01:02 PM |
I agree with what Chiron has said about what I understand to be "greifing". The rules should be enforced. Greifing should not be allowed. My question is does that go on here? I've never seen it in almost 200 hours of play time. I admit I don't know everyone and don't travel in certain circles. But everyone I've met has played nice with me. I have met some folks that may be on the darkside, but again all in character and very well played. I've never been greifed or witnessed it personally. Am I missing something?
Ken |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 02:24 PM |
I have watched the CONSTANT accusations of "griefing" that some people engage in destroy all sense of community, and fun, that I found on a server I was playing, to the point where I walked away in disgust (for that reason and others).
And I wish I could say that it was a few "bad apples" on either "side" who were the problem, because if I could say that then I'd be able to say that I think there are ways of addressing the issues of CvC (note the difference here, "Character vs. Character" as opposed to "Player vs. Player") conflict that could promote good RP for everyone.
Unfortunately, I don't see it that way, but not for the reasons people might suspect.
Frankly, IMO and IME, the single biggest problem with CvC interaction is the "good guys". It's sad but true that some people just CANNOT accept the fact that anything negative at ALL might EVER happen to their characters. This is honestly no different in NWN than it ever was in PnP. Lots of people play DnD because they want to be superheroes with swords, who can kill anything, go anywhere, never lose a fight, never lose a gold piece, always get rezz'ed by DM's, and expect to get a nice juicy RP xp bonus at the end of every day's play.
A person can go out for a day's play, get killed by a monster or NPC, take their respawn, and consider it part of the game. You'll never hear a word out of them about, "that computer-controlled AI griefed me!!!" But the INSTANT another PC is added to that mix in any capacity, all the sudden it's "grief play!", "grief play!" blathering all over the forums. Why? Because they can, mostly. Because deep down inside everyone they know the OOC difference btw an AI and a PC, and it's sad but true that a portion of the gaming population will ALWAYS assume that any time they lose to a PC the other player cheated, griefed, or had DM favoritism.
And, as of this thread here, I've now seen thinly veiled accusations of cheating, griefing, and DM favoritism all come up in the past, what, two days?
I truly, TRULY disbelieve there's much in the way of griefing or cheating going on in Vives. I say this with a combined 400+ hours of play btw myself and my wife. LOSING AN ARGUEMENT OR NOT GETTING A PIECE OF TREASURE IS NOT GETTING GRIEFED. Sorry for the all caps, but I feel really passionate about this one. On my last server, I watched a crafting guild hire someone from a thieves guild to smash a paticular crafting implement every time the server restarted, so that the crafting guild could charge non-guild members a small gold fee to use the implements in their guild hall. A beautiful example of fantastic, cooperative RP. I'll also note that on the server there were literally a dozen other crafting implements of that type available in less easy to reach places for free. All they were smashing was the one in the center of town that people stood in a 5+ line to use.
End result? 8 pages of community decay on their forums, players leaving, threatens of bans from the team, accusations of cheating, and several groups of "dry-looters" forming possees with the express intent of completely decimating the PC who was doing it.
AND IN ALL THAT TIME NOT A SINGLE PERSON EVER FOUND OUT IC WHO WAS DOING IT. We still got up to 8 pages of cussing, hate, and bitterness. It was only funny to me because I knew, OOC, that the PC actually doing it was probably the single longest played PC on that server, and an area builder for the world, and had express team permission to do what they did.
Here's what I would consider "real" griefing. If none of these things have ever happened to you, the reader, take time to give thanks to the fact that you play on Vives which is such a generally friendly and RP-oriented server that these activities honestly don't occur:
1. Spamming another PC with obscenity or threats using the Tell channel. And by spamming I mean filling their screen and keeping it filled until they log out. And by obscenity and threats I mean stuff that I wouldn't even feel right typing out on these boards.
2. PP'ing someone dry, especially someone 5+ lvls below you. Note the difference btw PP'ing someon DRY and PP'ing them. You get an item stolen, you WERE NOT GRIEFED. You get every last item you are carrying stolen, you were.
3. Rez-rape. Kill someone, have a buddy rez them, kill them, have a buddy rez them, never ever ever allow them to even take a step away from that spot the entire time they are logged in.
4. Respawn camping. Standing in the Midor Infirmary killing someone over and over, so they can't even respawn to get away from you.
If it weren't one of those four, it probably wasn't griefing. Something can be not fun, or not comfortable for you IC'ly or even OOC'ly, without being griefing. You can have a conflict with another CHARACTER or with another PLAYER, even one that requires DM intervention/resolution, without griefing or being griefed.
But I honestly, after more than a year of trying to play truly evil PC's and play them well, don't believe that the people on the "other side of the coin" can really handle PC conflict. I mean, I've had my PC killed SIX TIMES in ONE DAY by good PC's, and I smiled and took it all in RP stride. But I've seen two evil PC's get ambushed by five higher level good PC's in a possee, rez-raped three times (when asked why, the "good" PC said, "how else could I make sure they lost xp?"), and then ACCUSED OF GRIEFING BY THE GOOD PC'S for even sending them a tell that said "um, don't you think you're being a little unfair?"
Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, the fact that anyone would even think to log into the forum to make wide-sweeping, largely nameless, hugely leading accusations about "griefing", "cheating", or "favoritism" instead of PM'ing the team and asking them for resolution, completely de-validates any claim that person may have had whatsoever. Complaining, whining, accusing, demanding, hatemongering, or calling for changes "not for my benefit, but because think what would happen if some poor lowbie were involved" have no place being aired out in front of the whole server's community.
And, like was said above, who are you people and what kind of constant PvP and CvC are you involved in that me, my wife, and many many other people who play on Vives have never even SEEN at ALL.
Maybe, just maybe, there's that much PvP around your PC, gentle reader, because YOU participate in that much PvP.
-- Figleaf |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 02:52 PM |
Well, I'll chuck my tuppence into the hat.
I've never seen griefing on Vives.
However, I would like to say/expand on one point.
I happen to play an evil PC. She isn't very nice. You might know her.
However, one thing to say to the "Good" PCs. You have, and I have spent hours with you, planning and executing the downfall of various NPCs.
An Evil PC doing the same thing to you is not anything abnormal. Don't whine about it ;). Hasn't happened yet, here. But it -has- in other places.
Oh, and Evil -will- always loose. =P
-Barnas |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 03:01 PM |
I have to say that I get Griefed on a fairly regular basis on Vives, and I've seen it happen to a number of other players as well. The sad thing is, it seems to be the same one individual doing all the griefing. I believe they go by the name of.... erm... Lag. Yeah thats it lag. :)
Other than that I've never had a problem with anyone else at any time, and this is the first server I can say that on. Just my £0.02 |
"The issue isn't wether you're paranoid, its wether you're paranoid enough..."
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 03:04 PM |
Oh, and Evil -will- always loose. =P
not in RL it wont ;)
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 03:54 PM |
Maybe i'm just a wimp, but if an evil PC is going to go after me, I'd like them to PM or tell me about it first. After all, if Mykal's going to die, it may as well be in style in a good RP setting as opposed to an out-of-the-blue attack.
But yeah, I'd agree, I would not be surprised if an evil PC spent time plotting to kill Mykal and then executed the plan. Why not, he's good and their evil and if there's a compelling RP reason for the death then I'll sacrifice the experience happily.
But that's just me,
Mykal Vecar |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 04:18 PM |
| I personally don't like pvp , cvc or whatever anyone wants to call it. The occasional bit like the battle in midor and such thats not only ok but thats cool to me. If it were to ever become more than the occasional pvp ,cvc conflict Gasher would simply avoid most places people are in. And if it ever became like the constant pvp ,pick pocketing of another server I once played on I'd simply do like I did then and move on. |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 04:23 PM |
Brief Comment:
Any griefing is not tolerated in Vives whatsoever....... no matter who does it..... if it happens, then report it to Alo (preferably with some evidence..... i.e. a screenshot of the convo or whatever, just hit printscreen and check for the tga file in your NWNMain folder, and send it on).
Griefers will be banned. Although I'm glad to say, from my perspective, At present I don't -think- we have any.
Alos note..... our database records ALL pickpocket attempts and Player-Kills..... just something to be wary of ;)
Cheers
Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 05:44 PM |
This is slightly off-topic but related in a sense through one of the responses above. It is re PvP and how I view it.
Originally I accepted PvP in Vives as it was explained to me, as preventing characters from having immunity to the consequences of their actions in a world where nearly everyone is to some extent armed and lethally dangerous. Bad manners can lead to having your day completely ruined, in other words.
PvP as an organized sport, which is how I fear it is becoming to be practiced on Vives, is something altogether different to me and I will explain why.
When I play my character, I immerse myself in that character and I feel what that character feels both about what is happening and towards other characters. Presumably the other players are doing the same thing. So far so good; we the players are isolated from one another.
Now, my character delights in beating crap out of yours. My character feels great, and so do I. Your character feels lousy, and so do you. Only one of us had fun today. Maybe we are still isolated from one another as players, maybe not.
Now add a dimension. I post on the forum that my character beat crap out of yours, and express my delight with how the day went and that I look forward to more of those. And I announce it in IRC, too, using your name in conjunction with the character's name. By now you might very well be feeling angry, along with bad.
Some people will say that what I just described is completely crazy. These are the ones who prefer competitive play and combat environments. More power to them. That's not the kind of play I enjoy and it's not what I thought I was promised when I came here.
I've heard from a number of PnP DMs that evil opposition should stay in the province of the DM, to prevent the players from becoming divided amongst themselves in a hostile sense. I've also heard it said that largescale PvP in Vives is the answer to keeping the players entertained without any involvment from the DMs. These two statements are not at all contradictory, but they do describe two completely different environments. They are -not- compatible. One cannot have half the server population only enjoying themselves as long as they can attack other player's characters in any place at any time, and still have the other half enjoying themselves in any reasonable sense of the word.
The Players Handbook also said specifically that LG was the favored alignment in Vives. I chose not to go with that alignment, but I certainly never expected Vives to become oriented primarily to the evil alignments. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 06:31 PM |
Lets see if i can take a moment to say my piece without being confusing.
Of all my time in vives i have not noticed anyone GRIEFING anyone. There are a few things i have noticed that are a bit odd however and i will try and list them in a easy to understand manner.
1. It is acceptable for 5 Good aligned players to confront a lone evil player sinply cause his evil aurora is offensive, but it is unacceptable for a lone evil guy to Confront 5 good guys because they continually provoke the said evil guy. ((** Nobody will complain ooc if any fighting happens so long as the bad guy looses, but be ready to disappear for a while if your the bad guy and you win.))
2. It is acceptable for a good aligned player to attack an evil alligned player with no provocation (even more acceptable if the evil player is in the process of typing out emotes or lengthy sentances) but it is unacceptable for the evil player to attack a good aligned player unless he has permission from a DM and that DM is logged in and ready to raise any fallen good players.
3. It is acceptable to wear immunity to paralysis items (including freedom belts) but it is unacceptable to use the Bull Rush bigsbys spell to counter that. Apparantly that is being a lamer.
4. Whenever PVP happens the ratio of good people vs bad people must exceed or meet 6:1.
5. Using Hide in PLain Sight while knocked down or otherwise rendered immobile is not considered Cheap as long as your allignment is GOOD.
6. Magic should be weak compared to items because spells limited uses per day are its strong points
None of these are written down anywhere as rules or anything like that so please dont think i found them somewhere. These are simply trends that i have noticed from other players that seem a little jaded to me. I personally try as hard as i can to Play and Evil char that can provide good RP situations to everyone. Unfortunatly I only get help from one or 2 dms at odd times and everyone seems to be working against me on that one. I got a little urked and decided to take some time off untill i finish up my mid term studying bout but thats all.
**
Also, the biggest downfall is that evil alligned players DO NOT HAVE their own evil allgined city to seek safty in and RP together. If an evil city was present you would have your own place to hang out with each other where good aligned players would be jailed for causing stuff in just like you are jailed in midor. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 06:42 PM |
Please define griefing in your context.
Pickpocketing is allowed in Vives, and it should be a part of the world. It is however done on a very striclty controlled basis. The pickpocketing system in place has penalties that are VERY harsh for breaking the rules. They are implemented without any DM intervention, and rulebreakers are logged. to date, I've not seen a single log entry other than testing that shows anybody has violated the policy.
PvP via the subdual widget was put into the mod so that players can have conflict between themselves. It was not intended as a license for folks to run about bashing other characters. If this is an issue, document it, and we can address the problem.
I'm in the server a lot as a DM, and as a DM you see a lot. What I don't see is an abundance of this "griefing" you speak of. Help us to find it, and we'll take care of it.
One final note to anybody who may be misusing the PvP system: If you misuse the subdue mode, or if you decide you're going to kill a player with it turned off, you need to consider looking for another server, because your days here will be numbered. You know as well as everybody else that that is not what the system was intended for. Don't be stupid. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 07 Mar 2004 05:32 AM |
I'm not saying that there are large amounts of greifing going on in Vives, quite the oposite. However, when griefing does occur, people probably feel that they do not know where to complain... or even if they have the right to complain. Not all griefing is even done with the players knowledge... sneaking around a group of players and steeling their look while they can't see you for instance.
Another point I wish to make clear is that I am making no points at all with reference to Good vs. Evil characters. I have personnaly no problems with interacting with evil characters no matter who wins, so long as nothing "too bad" (PK'ing or simple combat for example) is done without consent on both sides for whatever the outcome may be. |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 07 Mar 2004 11:05 AM |
I THink people are confused a little about evil characters. Evil DOES NOT mean runs around killing people for no good reason. There are lots of things evil means but that is NOT one of them. Nearly all the time PvP occurs is when the GOOD players refuse to accept the existance of an EVIL one. PvP is not rampant in vives, is fact its prety rare so it does not make much sense to use it as a main example. I see everyone complain nag and bitch about PvP but the simple fact remains that you cause it all. If you dont want it, dont foce it to happen.
Also being a rogue and sneaking around stealing peoples loot while they are killing the monsters is NOT necessarily griefing. If the rogue was already nearby and a party arrives its perfect plausable for him to decide to allow the said party to do the dirty work for him while he takes the goods. However!, just like everything there is a limit. It could be considered griefing if that rogue were to follow you all around vives wherever you go doing this over and over again.
Taking all the good stuff while you storm a dungeon is not griefing, following you around to multiple dungeons that are some distance away might be. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 07 Mar 2004 01:01 PM |
This was not meant as a personnal attack, so please do not treat it as such. I agree that if the rogue is there, then they may take the opportunity. However, I believe it to be shear politeness from the player not to follow the group through an entire dungeon and steal ALL of their rewards, also, if the rogues have any sence, then they might not always follow the group down without their presence being known incase they are either seperated, or if the group gets killed leaving the rogue alone in a dangerous dungeon.
Anyway, enough of that, I don't wish to be forced into any sort of verbal match. I am mereley expressing some points which I want to be made clear to the cummunity. Clearly some griefing is taking place as witnessed by three of the players who have posted above. I just want it all to be nipped in the bud before it gets any worse... the DM's need to be extra vigilent and learn to not only work together to enforce the rules, but then to stick to their punishments and not go back on their own decisions without first consulting the other DM's first so that all are in agreement. |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 07 Mar 2004 02:45 PM |
Clearly some griefing is taking place as witnessed by three of the players who have posted above.
Would you be so kind as to quote the passages in this thread you feel indicated that three players have witnessed griefing?
Also:
Do you know, IC, that a given area is "full of loot"?
Do you know, IC, that a paticular chest has any treasure in it at any time at all?
Do you have an IC reason to be down in that dungeon, looking for that loot?
Do you know, IC, that someone followed you in and "stole all your rewards"?
It sounds to me like people go into a dungeon on a treasure run, get to where the treasure is OOC'ly "supposed to be", don't find any, and then immediately use one of 3 OOC methods to figure out that another PC had gotten the loot, then scream griefing. Was it immediately after a server reset, so everyone OOC assumed treasure would be there? Did someone use /pcinfo to track who was in the same area as them? Check the player list to see who con'd as "Neutral" instead of "Elsewhere"?
I peek into all sorts of chests, and wander into all kinds of dungeons. Sometimes there is treasure in them, and sometimes there ain't. Maybe somebody got there before me? Maybe Infinite Monster X was really broke that day and couldn't afford to buy another Scarab +3? Maybe a DM is watching and has decided I don't need to get any treasure for my actions?
Take it in stride, and take it IC. Where in the PHB for Vives does it say: "The player has a right to expect that at the end of every dungeon crawl they will always receive the static treasure that is set to be at the end of that dungeon crawl"?
If you have IC suspicions that a rogue is stealing from you, why not hire a ranger to follow you from a distance with his eyes peeled? Or hire a cleric to cast True Seeing on you before every dungeon crawl? Or hire another rogue to follow them around stealing from them?
Why immediately claim that the team needs to take action, and that the entire world needs to make a rule on the issue? Do we really need to engage in a show of hands over "who has been griefed on Vives, and who hasn't"?
I don't mean to rag on you about this, but I really feel, from the context of this thread and the posts that have come in response, that this is largely a personal issue, or a single issue btw a small group of players. Mostly what I see in response from the community is a bunch of people who have never heard of anything overly bad happening on Vives, or who aren't even aware of what terms like "farming" and "griefing" mean, or who are saying they basically want things to happen the way the rules already state they are supposed to happen. And I hear you insisting that it's going on and that the team needs to deal with it right away and that it's going to get worse if everyone isn't "extra vigilant".
I'm not trying to force you into a verbal match here, but I do think that several people have now tried to respond, generally, to what you tried to address, generally. And rather than take the responses at face value you continue to insist that something specific is going on while only making general statements about it. This leads to misunderstanding, because a whole bunch of people who play Vives won't have any idea what you are talking about, and will start to fear/assume that it's going on all around them, and will then become afraid to play or interact with others or go to certain parts of the server, and none of it really has any basis in what people are actually saying their game experience is.
Also, you did bring this up in public. That kinda obligates us all to think about it and deal with it, and it means that you will get responses that don't agree with you (although whether or not you'll get any that do agree with you isn't as guaranteed). If you think a change should be made, and the DM's should make it, perhaps take this up in PM's with them? If you want all us players to worry about how we play, and worry about how the PC next to us plays, or if you want to razz the DM's because you feel they made a "bad call", or made a "good call" then changed their minds, well then I guess this is probably the best way to accomplish that.
-- Figleaf |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 07 Mar 2004 03:54 PM |
Well said Figleaf.
Think about things IG. Your character should have no expectations that they will find treasure, or gold, or anything.
Your characters should have no expectation that someone will be following them. Using the website, or the player information tool and then acting upon this information is metagaming. Don't do it.
Vives, so far, has remained generally a very friendly place to play, where adults can roleplay according to their desire for enjoyment.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 07 Mar 2004 06:51 PM |
When I started this thread, I meant for it to be just "Something that needed to be said" and nothing more. Peoples reactions are suggesting that they think I believe that this sort of thing is happening all over Vives, when I have mentioned that I feel it does not.
The main point of this thread was to hopefully encourage fair play amongst all members of Vives, to remind people of the rules and hopefully to make players and DM's more vigilent when enforcing them. That was it... no personnal attacks were intended... no personnal incidents were pointed out. I just felt that somebody needed to say something because I had heared a lot of negative things from several members (not just one) who had just plain given up on trying to get things sorted.
I do not wish to continue this thread further... it has already delved further away from the main topic than I had hoped.
I would appreciate nobody else posting further in this thread. If anybody has problems with griefing, then report it directly to a DM. If anybody wishes to discuss these views further, then please PM me personnally.
Thank you. |
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Re: Something that needs to be said
Posted: 08 Mar 2004 01:16 AM |
Respecting the wishes of the person who started this thread, I decided to lock it, as Chiron felt the thread went into a non constructive way, judging his last post.
If anyone feels they should still have a say in the whole discussion, let me know.
Ruldain |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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