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Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 28 Feb 2004 11:38 PM |
Its my personal oppinion that immunity items have gone out of controll in vives. Everyone over level 7 now has a belt with freedom on it and is now immune to every single spell that slows movement speed or stops it. And this belt (belt of agility) is a never run out stock item in a certain shop. Absoluty everyone gets one and it is personally starting to frustrate me. I was under the impression that vives was not a high magic server. Freedom is a very powerfull spell and thus should not be on an item in vives.
Everyone i talk to about this (since nearly nobody is a mage) says that they dont see a problem with it becasue they dont want to have to have a mage buff them but then immediatly start bashing me the instant i suggest immunity to knockdown "No way, that would make mages uber". From my interpretation they dont want to be able to be slowed or stopped so that they can get close and knockdown mages this preventing them from casting spells. SOunds like a little mage envy if you ask me.
I'm particularly PEEVED in now that all my RP possibilitys when confronted with someone that is standing against my mage (Use you imagination and dont be a Poofta when thinking of the situation) is to either run away or launch an assault of maxed IGMS (upon which i will be ooc bashed about the cheapness of IGMS and my defense of you immune to everything else somehow wont hold any water). Some of my favorite things to do where to Cast hold, call them a fool and walk away. That is nolonger possible, not only that but less common immunity items are dropping on loot tables and anyone with the will can collect them and magically become immune to absolutly everything.
Immunity items need to go, Everytime i talk to someone about this i get the moronic response accusing me of wanting to be all powerfull. Well sorry, but thats not the case. A fighter with immunitys galore is all powerfull. I also get the response that a mage should not expect to face a fighter alone and survive, well i'm sorry but you have it all backwards and wrong. The correct saying is "A fighter should not expect to fight a -WELL PREPARED- mage alone and survive". Key word on well prepared!!!!. Come after him using an invis potion or something, just use your imagination. Catch him after he used his hold spells.
I would have no problem with freedom belts if they were one use per day since then you would have to use them wisely (just like a mages spells, we dont have infinite spells slots you know) and they could actually be dispelled.
I appologize for my caustic tone but i am just well ........ angry and nobody seems capable of viewing this from any other angle than " I dont want mages to be able to cast hold on me". |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 12:06 AM |
Well excuse me for saying this but this sure sounds like a gripe that I would expect to see on a high-action, PvP server, not on Vives. Your entire argument seems to be based on "I can't defeat this very easily, and therefore cannot PvP effectively."
In that context... who cares? We did not build Vives to be a PvP haven. I'd suggest trying to direct the roleplay of your character towards something other than direct character conflict. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 12:21 AM |
Thanks Merum I said that, but after all Im the crazy one here...
It seems hades only wories are I cant spot a fighter and kill him to my pleasure anymore, I cant be the all mighty one anymore. My answer was and is GOOD, if it prevents you from doing that then it is a much balanced world. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 12:27 AM |
| landru your missing the point, i can Kill people just fine and dandy by beaing cheap as hell but i cant use spells for rp cause they just dont faakin work., |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 12:39 AM |
| If your roleplay is based on casting hostile spells on other players, I assert that you're missing the point. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 12:40 AM |
| Theres a belt of agility? Why didn't anyone tell me? |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 12:50 AM |
I agree that the game is better without immunity or constant spell items. Not for the sake of PVP, but for the following reasons:
1. Constant spells in items make the actual spells less useful
2. Constant spells in items make the class that has the actual spell less useful
3. The item is overpowerd because the spell can be dispelled, while the item cannot
You promote party play by not allowing such items. The fighter is going to need a caster to buff him when he goes against the nasty Lich. This is good. |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 12:50 AM |
| were too busy running around immune to slow and entangle to speak... sorry bout that Coruva |
My lamentable plight... I am calamity.
fire... burning....agony...
sultry shivers of a dark essence
why am i tortured with this nihilistic existence?
-Maddox |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 12:51 AM |
I'm with Coruva on that one... I made lvl 7 a long time ago and I didn't get my complimentary belt of freedom! ...Also I don't know where the shop is, and even if i did I probably couldn't afford the thing... *mumbles quietly* I am so poor... Anyway, I do agree to the point that an item like that should not be an infinite item in a shop, however it also shouldn't be wiped out completely either. So, once again I sit the line.
-Calmeir |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 01:01 AM |
Well sorry merum if i use spells all the time in rp, guess i should pretend being a fighter.
I rahter like casting wall of fire between people, only problem is that instead of pretending to be afraid of it people run throuhg it becasue "i have 160 hp and firewall cant kill me"
I rahter like casting darkness in my rp, its too bad people just hit tab and pretend to still see me.
I rahter like casting Elvards black tenticles in between to keep people away, too bad they have freedom belts and completly ignore it.
I rather like to cast hold on a fighter that is charging at me cause its just plain stupid to letter run right up to you with a flaming greatsword, oh wait he has a freedom belt so i guess i'll have to cast IGMS just to be safe.
Do i need to keep going?, spells are immensely usefull in rp. Mages power comes from spells and should be reflected in rp, i guess im just sorry i tried to use them. I guess i'll buy a whip and pretend to be a lion tamer. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 01:09 AM |
What Theres a belt of freedom!!!! and every level 7 has it!!!!
*Looks at his Character sheet*
dang I missed it 7 levels ago and never even saw one. |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 01:18 AM |
Let's look through your examples for a moment here...
Well sorry merum if i use spells all the time in rp, guess i should pretend being a fighter.
I rahter like casting wall of fire between people, only problem is that instead of pretending to be afraid of it people run throuhg it becasue "i have 160 hp and firewall cant kill me"
PvP example
I rahter like casting darkness in my rp, its too bad people just hit tab and pretend to still see me.
ooh.. more PvP examples!
I rahter like casting Elvards black tenticles in between to keep people away, too bad they have freedom belts and completly ignore it.
What? More PVP?
I rather like to cast hold on a fighter that is charging at me cause its just plain stupid to letter run right up to you with a flaming greatsword, oh wait he has a freedom belt so i guess i'll have to cast IGMS just to be safe.
Wow, sure is a lot of PvP going on here...
Do i need to keep going?, spells are immensely usefull in rp. Mages power comes from spells and should be reflected in rp, i guess im just sorry i tried to use them. I guess i'll buy a whip and pretend to be a lion tamer.
Yep... keep going until you find an example that isn't PvP. I might begin to take you seriously then. Haven't seen a lick of roleplay yet. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 01:21 AM |
I don't see these as PvP, i see them as RP aids, often used to AVOID PvP...besides, I don't like immunity items either, for obvious reasons.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 01:22 AM |
Wall of fire between people, isn't that a player killing spell? oh wait, that wasn't your intention to hurt them.
Darkness and people hit tab? how can you know it, unless you're behind them in real life. As a rp matter: I can certainly guess where you are especially two seconds after you've casted your spell.
Elvards black tentacles? I don't have a belt and I would not care... My character doesn't even have a belt, period!!!
Hold on a fighter with ...: Ok. Now that's it: That doesn't mean he wants to kill you if he "runs" (read; didn't hit the detect mode so he would walk) in front of you with your weapon (read: didn't push the button so that his weapon is shealted) That's the same with a mage's staff, but you don't hold the mage because he run in front of you right?...weird, that's a weapon, he's charging you!
Sorry if I sound rude and sick of it, but I am.
PvP is -N O T- fun. |
Frodo : What are we holding on to, Sam?
Sam : That there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.
-The Two Towers |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 01:28 AM |
I must agree....immune items are a tad uber...my main thought is that it shouldnt be sold as an infinite item..perhaps make it avaiable to certain higher level chracters.....
as for PvP....i think it is fun and does serve a purpose in mods as long as its not abused like some of the other mods that allow it. But that is another topic of conversation and i digress. |
ONWARD AND UPWARD! |
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Re: Immunity items: Out of control?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 01:32 AM |
PvP conflict is fun in the right context, which is why we've put in the ability for characters to knock the crap out of one another in a non-lethal manner. PvP for PvP's sake is not going to be tolerated here, period.
As for the immunity items, I'm not a big fan of them, because we have to escalate the toughness of the beasties to overcome it... essentially it's a big arms race. That's not the point I'm trying to make here. The point I'm trying to make is that how tough or combat effective one is versus other players should be the last thing on anybody's mind. |
Question Authority! |
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Cant you grow up!
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 01:32 AM |
<edited for content>
OK folks, let's keep this philosophical, not personal, huh? K thanx. ;)
~Merum |
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Re: Cant you grow up!
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 01:41 AM |
| sorry but absoluty non of the examples i have given were PVP examples. They were all situations used to AVOID pvp. Casting firewall in between us is a way to stop them from coming closer (IE they stop running). The same is true fro the tentacles. The hold spells is because i consider a fighter running at me with their weapons out a hostile act, doujan (or was it luther) made this point by attackign while i was typing emotes and test massages to say. Casting darkness is also another way to avoid PvP and i dont need to be standing behind someone to know they hit tab, its blatently obvious if they do it (btw i'm casting darkness on myself so they cant see me or where i run (running straight out the back). |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Cant you grow up!
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 04:08 AM |
I agree that there shouldn't be any items for sale with immunity on them. Immunity to anything is a powerful ability, it should be gainable only through random spawns. I have no idea where this belt is, Cantor still doesn't own a belt. Cantor DOES however, have boots that grant freedom and they are located as a constant spawn at some place in the world.
I don't think any items should exist as constant spawns.
However, I do believe that immunity items should be IG because they are important in a character's progression. With the new rules with death spells where rolling a 1 is an automatic fail there's no way I want to fight things that cast death magic without having immunity to it. It's all well and good if you have a cleric willing to buff you with those spells before such a fight, but that's not always the case. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: Cant you grow up!
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 06:02 AM |
However, I do believe that immunity items should be IG because they are important in a character's progression. With the new rules with death spells where rolling a 1 is an automatic fail there's no way I want to fight things that cast death magic without having immunity to it. It's all well and good if you have a cleric willing to buff you with those spells before such a fight, but that's not always the case.
I don't have any item which makes me immune to death magic and that is a very nasty monster ability. Therefore my rule: pick your battles wisely. Ok, sometimes there's no way to know what to expect, but when X enters a crypt (even one I've never been in before) or an area X has never seen before, he will cast shadow shield. Clerics do the same with negative plane protection, etc. I don't have it on constantly (it has a duration after all), but I make sure that for the time I'm down or in there, I have such protection on. It's called planning or strategy.
As for immunity: Yeah I have a belt which I found (gives freedom) and the staff I run around with also gives me immunity to something. But for the staff I always roleplayed it that it was his own heritage which gave him this immunity and that the staff is merely a token from Ka'azim, as is the Ka'azim golden orb (the staff I found, the orb I bought). From a RP perspective it's a lot cooler to say that the orb and staff were a gift, rather than saying: yeah well I beat up monsters and then in one of the chests I found this item. Isn't that nifty? The staff gives him the same immunity a dragon has (no, he isn't immune to everything, only to a particular kind of spells) and from a rp point of view it even makes sense (ok I was simply lucky to find this, but luck is part of the game as well I suppose). If immunity items will have to go, fine, no big deal.
I once saw a ring for sale in the Midor Mage Tower which gave immunity to something else (not saying what), but I didn't buy it. Instead I told another character (no, not one of my own, that would be cheap) that there might be something there that the PC would like. Again for a RP reason it made sense for that character.
I think I used hold monster twice on PCs, once was with the consent of the other person and the other time was under DM supervision. Otherwise I've never used magic to scare away others, except the lightning of my hound archon on others, which was unintentional (my apologies again to all who suffered from this :-/). |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Freedom Items
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 06:31 AM |
My PC has two "freedom" items, both of which were given to her by other characters. Therefore I have no idea where they came from. The belt she doesn't wear normally because she has another belt that she needs more than that one. She wears the "freedom" belt during some crafting, for the DEX boost. The other item she wears because when HOTU came out, and the will saves were broken, she was suddenly being held by dinky spells for which she had succeeded the will saves 36 to 12 DC. In order to use it she replaced an item she really liked, and she has since given that item to a newbie who had f-all equipment due to the sparse treasure and non-existant merchant stocks. She's never seen another one of those, anywhere, since.
The issue of spellcasters versus melee-fighters and hostility in appearance came up both IC and OOC between me and another player. A melee fighter unsheathing a weapon is not in itself an attack. It's a warning that the fighter has a weapon and is prepared to use it if provoked further. When countries make statements about their armaments to each other in politics, it is called sword-rattling for a reason. A spellcaster is always armed and ready, especially one leading a high-level summoning. A buffed spellcaster leading a summoning is about as threatening a sight as a melee-fighter with shield and sword at ready, and probably more so since any solitary melee fighter has to drink potions in order to resist most powerful magics.
When the PvP rules were published, Q mentioned to me that he did not know if "hold"spells should be considered hostile acts. He wondered what people would think. I think that they are. Restraining someone from running away, so that you can force them to beg for mercy or hand over their gold, is a hostile act.
I think the subdual damage on PvP cheapened the whole thing. You say a PC should not know they can survive a firewall? How are they supposed to know that they can beat someone mercilessly with a sword and the person won't die because they set a knuckle-bone in their inventory to "non-lethal"? I think the subdual damage just took the Vives server one step closer to being a PKer's heaven. But that's another argument. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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PvP or P2P?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 06:42 AM |
Im not going to comment on the use of immunity items here but on creating a distinction in PvP that some have alluded to.
There is a difference between PvP and RPing P2P. It would be a little antithetical to the whole idea of Role-play if we assumed that all Characters of Vives liked one another.
It seems to me that all of Hades examples were designed at Roleplaying hostility NOT PvP combat. In fact I think he should be applauded for roleplaying a situation in which he dislikes another character but without having to actually resort to killing them. (That is of course assuming that he is telling the truth *winks*)
I've cast Sleep on a Paladin with the sole aim of avoiding conflict. I've also cast minor magic spells on my sister for good humour. These were all part of RPing and never once did it enter my contemplation that I wished to harm the other side.
Hold person, Evards Tenticles, and Wall of Fire are (at least on their own) of the same ilk.
If we value RP, we must accept that not all our characters will get along. This adds RP flavour and this is colourful way of doing that. Just because Hades examples are player related do not make them PvP
As for Belts of Agility found one yesterday. How ironic. Thought of buying it to. Fighters are not the only ones who benefit from this. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: PvP or P2P?
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 07:16 AM |
I've cast Sleep on a Paladin with the sole aim of avoiding conflict. I've also cast minor magic spells on my sister for good humour. These were all part of RPing and never once did it enter my contemplation that I wished to harm the other side.
Actually it was on a cleric and it was mine (and it was again with that bugged will save; I remember saving the first time with 16 vs 15 and failing with 28 vs 15...).
At the time my cleric found that a very hostile act, as he dropped down in an area he considered dangerous to the soul and mind. Yet we all roleplayed that out and eventually came to a concensus. The difference here is that all players were good (I'll just assume that Evaramier is good a well, judging from his actions) and so they won't start hacking each other into pieces.
When there's actually hatred or dislike between characters it's normal IMHO that people will act accordingly. Yet a few days ago I was witness to an event that made my jaw drop. Fri'el (yes, we all know she's evil by know. If not you've been living under a rock ) summoned a balor while invisible to scare a 'mortal'. I remained calm as I knew she was casting, but the 'mortal' attacked the balor! Quite frankly when I am level 6 or 7 and I see a balor appear out of nowhere I'd either run away at top speed, screaming from Midor to Port Royale, or stand absloutely still, terrified to death. Even Xaranthir would, despite his powerful magic, either talk (also an option) or run away. Only when fully prepared would he attack one IF attacked first. He happens to know firsthand the force and power of such a demon.
It's ok to dislike someone else but always consider who they are, before taunting them. I still remember this line from my Baldur's Gate games: "Better part of valour! Better part of valour!" (And run he did). |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Back to Immunity Items...
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 07:19 AM |
The problem is balance...
I am a firm believer that the prescence of any item in a world is never unbalancing or stupid.
However, I am an equally firm believer that certain abilities shouldn't be found for a pretty long time.
And I am still convinced, that with a couple of exceptions, this is very true on Vives.
Only one of my characters has found a "Freedom" item. Ever. In..oh... 900 hours? Admittedly, it was a lvl 10 who got lucky on a treasure drop. However, that doesn't make the item rampant- Fri'el's never found one in all of her delves into high level areas, and as a result still wears...
A belt of cunning
Now, let us consider.
If powerful items were, generally, rampant, would the lvl 19 with nearly 600 hours be wearing a belt of cunning?
I believe that the answer to that would be a fairly resounding no
There is powerful magic on Vives. However, it isn't massively widely available. That's why the immunity items there are out there arn't so bad.
-Barnas |
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Re: Back to Immunity Items...
Posted: 29 Feb 2004 08:19 AM |
ok.. I stopped reading at the middle..
but :
Merum, you keep replying to Hades saying he cant use his PvP spells anymore..
but -
this is true about player vs monsters.. or player vs tree :
when someone cast a wall of fire.. ppl are suposed to get burned / run away of it.. or something like that.. and what he says, is completely true - ppl just jump trough it.
sry - but I dont think 90% of the PCs are so "brave"/stupid to do it... so what if it only does 4d6 (or what ever it does) it is still fire..
and it's the player's decision to think as his char, to think that someone is charging him..
or darkness.. I have seen many players RP it very well when Budok cast darkness and disappear,
but I have also seen PCs that didnt care that they cant see anything.. and I dont remmember names - but some started to ask 'where did you go?' only after I pressed "disappear" (thus they knew I was there till they couldnt see me if they tabbed)
Hades just offered examples for avoiding PKing ..
but anyway - immunity items..
it's completely the same as lock picking and trap disarming spells.. why should mages/clerics be able to disarm/unlock ? the spells were modified and only rouges (and familiers) can open/disarm the difficult ones..
if you give chars that cant cast spells like freedom. items that give them -perm- freedom.. you just take the meaning of that spell.. if only rouges can unlock .. I say only mages/clerics should be able to counter magic with magic. sure chars should be able to 'defend' themselves.. but it shouldnt be perma freedom.. once a day is fair enough..
if it's perma it takes away some of the 'specialty' spell casters have..
this is the same as perma haste and perma TS items. and other immunity items (like dragon slippers - with immunity to fear and knockdown)
if there's a policy about such items.. why should perma freedom be allowed?
it's just unbalancing things - and not really fair..
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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