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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 12:29 PM |
| We are all for slow leveling, at least passed level 10 or so. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 12:30 PM |
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"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 12:34 PM |
I think the current system works in that it does manage to balance class growth. There is absolutely no need to go extra lengths and ensure classes some may consider more powerful have a greater advantage on experience gain.
The system might be imbalanced, but we also need to remember balance isn't checked by a Class vs. X equation - X being a constant for all classes, and a monster by common perception. That, of course, is wrong. Fighters may fight many, many monsters before their resources are exhausted, while wizards whose abilities (spells) exhaust quickly can only fight a smaller number, but arguably with greater effectiveness.
The idea behind Vives' experience system does a good job giving XP according to a class' abilities. Fighters have their abilities centered around fighting (of course), and their XP gain is appropriate. Rogues, which are a class that combines fighting and a wide skill set, get their prime source of XP from a combination of both. Wizards/Sorcerers for casting spells, and so forth. It works, and works well. The only problem I find with it is that Vives had a race for expansion which greatly increased the exploitable XP pool of Fighting and Exploring, as new monsters and areas were put. Other sources of experience were left stagnant. A situation is created when a level 25 Fighter gains a lot of XP by defeating a new monster, while a level 25 Wizard keeps using the same spell for the same amount of XP. Overly simplified, but still no good.
I won't go into extra length at how the different classes, in spite of the imbalance of the NWN mechanics, aren't really as far apart as they are commonly. The two points that were put here, concerning Clerics and Bards, are not really true. A classic cleric combines various abilities, which are exhaustible, and cannot master any of them as well as other classes may. A classic bard is not offensive at all, and his effectiveness shouldn't be judged by his offensive capabilities - his abilities are focused more towards buffing a party, and while at NWN they are laughable, I think they were greatly improved for NWN2.
Ignoring the issue of resurrection, which I agree with Fictrix on, there is no other reason Clerics should level slower for being more powerful - they are not really that. And saying Bards should level faster because their offensive is weak is like patting them on the back and saying "Here, now you can eat the cake AND leave it whole: you can help buff your teammates as well as level faster and contribute to the fight as well as any of them!"
The system works, but the implementation can still be improved, and also its maintenance in the long run. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 12:42 PM |
The best experience system I know of is from an older game. Experience wouldn't accrue instantly, but would "set in" over time.
Whatever you did, crafting, hunting, whatever, filled up an "experience meter" which could only be so full. Every three minutes or "pulse" you'd get some experience, with diminishing returns as your experience meter fell (20, 19, 18, down to 0). If you died during that time, you lost X amount of experience and your experience meter went to 0.
Certain places called "Nodes" which were considered safe places for rest would double your pulse gains, and once a week for eight hours, it was increased another multiple (2x on the field, 3x at nodes).
Experience gains per pulse were based on the Intelligence stat (called Logic) which basically affected your max pulse.
Just putting it out there, might be neat if it could be implemented. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 12:48 PM |
We're going for a seamless transition from Vives 1 to Vives 2....... they "co-exist".
As for some lore....... I'll speak with the others and see what we can come up with, that won't act too much as a spoiler. We might be able to leak out some details on races/places and so forth...... Some will be in forthcoming screenshots if you look hard enough ;)
As for class balancing...... it will never happen The differing XP gains based upon class are there for a reason (prior PW experience where a lvl 19 Sorc & 1 Pal for example were common and completely ruined gameplay) ...... in order to address the more glaring ones. However, making every single class perfectly balanced is impossible, and we're not going to waste our time nerfing this, nerfing that, removing whatever, altering stuff...... I think that NWN2 has it pretty good however. |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 01:01 PM |
But even if you didn't use that xp table, characters would still be gaining xp from what their good at. Fighters will fight and wizards will cast spells whether or not they gain xp from doing so. I have never seen xp gained from using any skill other than open lock and disable trap. If a rogue specializes in stealth or diplomacy they get no credit for it.
Also we are not judging characters based entirely on their offensive capabilities. However you look at it bards are weak, clerics and monks are tough (in NwN 1 at least). No one is suggesting that the bard should have the melle capabilities of a fighter. Compared with PnP 3.5 rules the bard is weak. NwN is a combat based game (as we have discussed before) so this difference is more significant than in 3.0 PnP (from which the NwN rules were devised).
Ed. 19 sorcerer/1paladin? I take it thats a (human or half elf only) sorcerer thats immune to disease with +4 to +6 on saves. Thats powerful, but very bad form. I would have thourght that anyone playing on a roll play server wouldn't do that. They would have trouble gaining roll play xp for a start. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 03:09 PM |
Late replying to Fictrix and Frimble above...
Huh... I realized that the XP filters rewarded different types of activities for different classes, but I didn't realize it also slowed progression for some classes and promoted it for others. In a sense that's like implementing the old XP tables from AD&D (my only point of reference) where each class had its own XP requirement to level, such that a party with identical XP accumulation would still have characters of different levels. A thief reaches level 2 w/ 1,250 xp, a fighter with 2,000, a magic-user with 2,500...
This Tuesday-night party of folks now creeping towards level 3... If we played them for a year, always partied, and nobody ever missed a session, we'd still have characers of different levels owing to the way Vives awards XP? Same "experiences", but different XP accumulated.
With the Tuesday-night folks, any one of us could log on, and reach level 5 or 6 in a few hours. I'm extremely pleased that we have not! |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 03:21 PM |
I like the spirit of the Tuesday nighters too. Einarr had unfortunately existed before the group... so is a level ahead of you folks. Odd that someone with a clubfoot would be in the lead.
Anyhow, I like Vives xp system very much. I like that there are numerous forms of rewards, and I like the reward differential across classes. I agree with Xerah that it is a great system. While the system will likely be tweaked for V2 (and could even use some in V1 due to the size of Vives) I don't believe it needs any kind of overhaul or change of direction.
The basic systems of Vives have worked very well in my opinion because they have fostered a community of roleplayers that seem to like and respect one another. There is a great deal of politics that are part of a persistant world, and I think Vives has dealt with them fairly well. All the classes seem interesting, and playable which frees you up to roleplay rather than force powergaming just to feel like you are contributing. And yet we have many powergamers here that ALSO roleplay.
And I like it because it allows someone like me - who dedicates very little time to the game (relatively) - to be an active participant. I don't feel pressured into grinding away, all day, everyday just to be involved.
I think it is due in no small part to the way this server has organized and managed itself, and I would like to see that continue. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 04:01 PM |
| The Tuesday Nighters? We have a name? :O |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 04:47 PM |
Huh... I realized that the XP filters rewarded different types of activities for different classes, but I didn't realize it also slowed progression for some classes and promoted it for others. In a sense that's like implementing the old XP tables from AD&D (my only point of reference) where each class had its own XP requirement to level, such that a party with identical XP accumulation would still have characters of different levels. A thief reaches level 2 w/ 1,250 xp, a fighter with 2,000, a magic-user with 2,500...
From your description its very like those tables. In 3.5 D&D a level in any class is roughly equivalent to the same any other class. More abilities are gained at level 1 most classes, and some classes become more powerful at particular levels but it is very balanced on the whole.
NwN uses a slightly altered version of 3.0 rules. The 3.0 rules in themselves are less balanced, and the NwN changes are more to do with making them easier for a computer to ajucate than allowing for a more combat oriented game. The Vives xp tables help to rectify this. Just looking at them it is possible to see that some classes have a much higher xp gain than others. The tables do not show the full story though as some classes can't gain xp from some sections regardless of the number indicated, while others will gain a lot of xp from these sections.
The aspect of the table I didn't like was that when multiclassing the values are averaged, so that it will invariably take longer to gain xp than with a single class character. This is quite problematic for Eltarial as her combat and casting xp is low and her ability usage (read lock picking and trap-busting) were high. It didn't really suit the character to be wandering round other peoples houses to practice these skills. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 06:04 PM |
Whoah, step away for a few minutes and look what happens.
A situation is created when a level 25 Fighter gains a lot of XP by defeating a new monster, while a level 25 Wizard keeps using the same spell for the same amount of XP. Overly simplified, but still no good.
Remember that the mage still gets combat xp as well as spellcasting xp - yes, not 100%, but then a mage really isnt a fighter who benefits from combat.
there is no other reason Clerics should level slower for being more powerful - they are not really that
Um.. Clerics are very powerful in that they perform very well in an all around sense. Most of the most "powerful" PC's that I have seen on the server have been clerics. My opinion only perhaps but an opinion based on three years of watching PCs
The aspect of the table I didn't like was that when multiclassing the values are averaged, so that it will invariably take longer to gain xp than with a single class character.
Jack of all trades, master of none. Yes, you gain flexibility and abilities that makes your PC more effective alone than specialized characters, but the lack of specialization comes at a cost - perhaps reduced progression and an overall lower amount of power.
It's one or the other, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
This is quite problematic for Eltarial as her combat and casting xp is low and her ability usage (read lock picking and trap-busting) were high. It didn't really suit the character to be wandering round other peoples houses to practice these skills.
Perhaps the character idea would have been better suited with a different choice of classes?
---
Regardless of the imperfections of the current XP system, the greatest strength is the fact that the system gives out XP at a rate fast enough to see progression, but slow enough for you to take time to get to know and develop your character.
I absolutely detested it to start, but came to see the wisdom of it over time. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 06:58 PM |
| Actually, I agree with PDW (oh noes!). This XP system is actually really good, in that it allows character progression in more ways than one, and makes sense class to class when you sit back for a minute to think about it. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 07:10 PM |
Well, I hate to disappoint, but I was able to luckily get the expansion when it released last week here in the US, and confirming the Faqs link I gave in another post: MotB only goes to level 30. So maybe it's not so bad if it's difficult getting past level 10. Anyways, hopefully they'll come out with yet another expansion that will allow to level 40. (NWN had HotU!!!) I have yet to try MotB out: with a business trip last week, and my love of Vives having kept me from even beating NWN2 with my limited freetime this year.
I can't wait until V2 Launches. Thank you to all the dedicated volunteers who put in so many hours to our enjoyment. I think on the V2 webpage you should allow a paypal/donation link so that when we fell so inspired us "Players" may be able to compensate our wonderful staff for their attention and time. (Of course Powergamers will still be ignored! Hehehe.)
Keep up the wonderful community and don't bail out yet, you oldtimers. I think there are a good deal of players who used to be very active who are still waiting for V2 to launch with great expectancy.
Gracias, queridos con-jugadores, (there's no way to express my appreciation in English!) You're the best!!!!
Kalannar Illistynn
We're not going to be hard-capping levels at all..... so theoretically it would be possible to progress all the way to level 40 (With MOTB).
However, we're keeping the same XP system in place as we have now, albeit with a few tweeks here and there. What naturally happens with our system is that people begin to level reasonably fast, as they explore (one-off area/description/trigger XP) or kill monsters (full XP the first time with decreasing amounts afterwards). \
This works very well........ but is also dependent on the "XP pool" which in Vives now, is massive, due to the sheer number of unique monsters/areas and such. This obviously won't be the case initially in Vives 2, as there'll be a smaller XP pool to start.
I would say the plateau/brick wall will be hit in the early teens as regards levelling in Vives 2..... it'll just be a grind/much slower to level after this, as you're down to the residual monster-bashing XP & most likely have used up exploration/lockpicking/static quest XP.
This is desirable for balance issues and also DM's & quests/storylines. Of course there will always be the exceptional few who play 12 hours a day and reach epic levels ;)
- Ara |
"Life is a short trip... travel light"
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PC Descriptions with Journal Links |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 07:17 PM |
Regardless of the imperfections of the current XP system, the greatest strength is the fact that the system gives out XP at a rate fast enough to see progression, but slow enough for you to take time to get to know and develop your character.
I absolutely detested it to start, but came to see the wisdom of it over time.
I completely agree. I actually have found it easier to learn more efficient character building and planning by using this system, where it's easy to "hak" the premade games and just settle for a second best PC. Heros in real life are very rare, and circumstance or birth made them extraordinary. I like that it takes just such coincidence or PC planning to make a "Hero" in Vives. Kalannar is only 14th or 15th level, and he sucks if not in a group, but the RP of a poorly built PC makes him still one of my favorites to play, and his lore and community activity has made him a well known PC and he has significantly affected MANY plots that are still very active today. Animal has more of an epic "build", but I have so much fun playing Kal, that he really doesn't get that much more play, anyways. PLUS, with Animal's social adaptation problems, he'll never be that "epic" of a hero. He'll always be quirky, frustrating, semi-social, and funny/weird/frustrating from an out of game perspective.
It's a social server focused on RP right? I'd love to see Kalannar hit level 20+, but the way he's built it will probably not happen until long after V2 is built and running! And I'm fine with that!!! (sorta) :P
Primarily: have fun guys. This community rocks, and the quirks in functionality are really very menial.
See you IG!!! |
"Life is a short trip... travel light"
--
PC Descriptions with Journal Links |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 21 Oct 2007 01:32 PM |
Just finished MotB today.
Was okay. Ending was kind of lame. But totally worth picking up. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 22 Oct 2007 10:05 AM |
"However, we're keeping the same XP system in place as we have now, albeit with a few tweeks here and there. What naturally happens with our system is that people begin to level reasonably fast, as they explore (one-off area/description/trigger XP) or kill monsters (full XP the first time with decreasing amounts afterwards)."
Are we going to still get XP for crafting? I hope so!! I have visited many NWN2 worlds and all of them are lacking in crafting in general. None of them gives XP for crafting.
A few that do have a minor form of crafting (bows and wood items in particular) have NPCs that have to be dealt with to collect raw materials (ie a durid that controlls a grove of trees). you collect an ingame item and barter for the raw material.
Just some food for thought folks :) |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 22 Oct 2007 11:59 AM |
yes.
xp for crafting.
how we will integrate it into the new crafting system will remain to be seen.
(by 3.5e rules, making items costs xp!) |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 22 Oct 2007 10:04 PM |
(by 3.5e rules, making items costs xp!)
Is that all crafting, or does that apply to some things (potions, scrolls, wands, etc.)?
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 22 Oct 2007 10:27 PM |
PDW, if the items have a power value associated to them I think the cost in XP is appropriate. Standard D&D magic items (and their Vives2 equivalents) SHOULD cost XP in my opinion. Likewise in the D&D system these items give your character a significant edge.
I think getting XP from crafting is a bit of a cheat. I think crafting should only improve the character materially. The motivation for making items should be material - money or the use of the item.
All that said, a PW is not a session based role playing game so the power balance adjustment that comes from XP cost may not be appropriate if directly translated. But crafting does give you an edge in power over other players and this is also done at the expense of time spent interacting with other players. I think rewarding this activity via XP compounds the problem. If there are to be any numerically abstract rewards I suggest keeping the Crafting Experience and Crafting Levels, but not letting this translate to Character XP.
Crafting has its own rewards. You get cool items. You get the joy of tinkering with the crafting system. You can ask other players where the materials are and go on adventures together. And you derive revenue from the activity. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 05:48 AM |
I recommend making sure wizards can make scrolls. (for 3.5 stated xp or scaled equivalent)
Scribe Scroll is one of the wizards class abilities and I think it's only fair that they should have this option.
In answer to XI some xp is required to craft any item in 3.5. For some items it is a lot while for others practically none (level 1 wizard creating scroll of level one spell only uses up 1xp). |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 06:29 AM |
I played on a server for a long while that had crafting/enchanting. It was a neat combination where one could be a crafter of say weapons, then pass that masterwork weapon to a wizard, bard, cleric to have them enchanted. Crafting the item cost some XP and some gold. Enchanting however cost the enchanters a bucket load of XP and gold depending on what was requested on the item. We're talking like 20K xp points and on upward depending on what you wanted. It also took you several days/months to complete. If you didn't have enough XP or it would cause you to loose a level enchanting the item then you couldn't create it. You could create some really nasty items at a huge huge expense of both gold and XP all on the back of the enchanter. This in turn created some great RP between crafters and enchanters. A PC had to *really* want that item badly and then try and talk an enchanter into performing the service. Which wasn't always so easy as it was the enchanter that was loosing a good chunk of his hard work ;)
However the down side to that, is that you had the XP grinders that would put these things into the market. Go XP grind to make up their loss and wash/rinse/repeat. So then the PW had to find a counter to that. I believe it ended up as only certain merchants would buy crafted/enchanted items and then it was at a huge huge loss to the crafter/enchanters.
Another PW I played on had an interesting system. You were awarded "crafting" experience, not XP in general. If you made a bow .. you were awarded a certain amount of crafting xp points. The more you made, the easier making a bow became. Which to me made alot of sense. The more you do something, the easier it gets right? However if I recall, enchanting wasn't possible on that PW. Perhaps a combination of this type of system along with the possibility to enchant would be interesting?
And BTW, I really like Vives current XP system. It's refreshing to get a little something for a character to explore their surroundings. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 07:44 AM |
An issue I see with the XP system Vives uses and the idea that crafting takes away experience is that Vives has a limited pool of XP to gain from. The more you tap into one source of XP, the less you receive from it, until you receive an obsolete amount or noting at all. If crafting will take that experience away, then at some point you go stagnant - the character doesn't gain experience but loses his hard-earned XP when crafting.
If build a pool and fill it with water, then decide whenever someone takes a swim some of that water drains away, then eventually the pool will go dry.
In addition, seeing how crafting is a learning curve - you don't make that mithril weapon without practicing a lot on lesser things beforehand - the XP drainage is even greater. Having no learning curve makes no sense, as much as giving players the ability to make their character level 20 on creation doesn't.
Also, let me quote what Quija said: "It's refreshing to get a little something for a character to explore their surroundings", this is something I strongly believe in.
LucasArts had that same idea behind their adventure games that the player cannot "lose" the game by having the character dead. In other words, as they put it: the player should not be punished for exploring the world.
Crafting is part of the world that is Vives, like exploring, like combat, like role playing, etc. To say character X should lose experience for taking part in activity Y - this discourages players from taking part of activity Y, thus discouraging them from exploring everything Vives can offer them. It is not the same for punishing a character for something like death. Vives always encouraged its own exploration, offering characters real positive consequence for every activity they take part in, so we'll want to explore further. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 07:50 AM |
| It might make sense to have crafting items cost gold, but give experience. (Just thought I'd throw that out there, I'm sure you'll all have a million reasons why it's a horrid idea :P) |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 09:16 AM |
Maybe its me, but I see crafting everybit as a valid way to gain XP and no different that exploring, combat, and opening locked items. As far as it being a means to exploit xp...well...the other forms of xp gathering are just as easy. I don't think that crafting should be excluded for that reason.
Most of you don't remember me as I was a part of Vives in the very early days; But I ran a bow shop across from the Four Winds Inn. Aside from selling bows, we had material gathering activities as well as crafting workshops. This we a real boon for the new players; and I must say, other than testing Arathon's monsters, crafting top shelf weapons was one of the main enjoyments of my time on this server.
All that being said, there are several ways to "doll" crafting up. As I stated above:
* the collection of raw material can be set up in such a manner that they can be used as
small quests.
* Organic Resources can be harvested. If harvested too often (small yield) let to grow or tended (large yields)
*Inorganic resources can be controlled by the size of the vein and the frequency or replentishment.
By controlling how these raw materials are handled, can control how easy/hard the finished produce can be exploited.
In closing I must say how excited I am to get back into the Vives world; Exploring the new lands in Vives2 as well as crafting some really cool bows :) |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 09:47 AM |
I'm glad this is coming up because I wasn't sure if it was premature to talk about crafting and CNR. I'm jazzed to see what the NWN2 modders come up with and how it gets translated into Vives, because I heart crafting.
Tasra's idea is really interesting to me. Profit margins on crafted items should be much narrower than they currently are. Recognizing that players put in hundreds of hours to become proficient in their chosen crafts, those shields and daggers are pure profit. The effort required to gather the materials is negligible, because when every item you attempt to craft is successful an economy of scale kicks in.
The profit margins on crafted items should be more realistic. If an item nets 5000 gold at sale, it should cost half that to make, or more. Maybe the profit to the crafter should only be 10 or 20% of the wholesale value of the item. The crafter puts up the difference, up front when the item is being made. They would need to have thousands of GP on hand to turn out a batch of daggers for sale, and their gold would be tied up in unsold stock until they moved it out again. A merchant buys it from the crafter at wholesale prices, buys ten of the same item more likely, and sells it retail.
That would make CNR-crafting comparable to crafting scrolls and wands, which cost quite a bit of gold to make, and rightly so. This simulates the use of fine/rare ingredients, beyond what can be simulated by CNR. It isn't something that you undertake lightly, and while there is money to be made doing it, that's only if you do it for other players.
Think of it this way - a dagger or a sword just isn't worth a bundle if it doesn't have fine fixin's, and it isn't better than an ordinary weapon unless you use the finest materials, exclusive of the metal stock.
Right now, the progression in the various crafts seems right to me. I'm reminded of Timik's comments on making birdhouses for 1 XP a pop... I've often taken shelter in the fact that crafting XP can't be taken away, and that if I can't seem to make any progress towards the next character level, by the end of the week I'll probably have advanced in my chosen craft.
I also think crafting should net players real XP as well, along the lines that Neek said. Vives rewards all kinds of different character-building activities. I don't know why tailoring would make you a better wizard, but there you go.
I do think crafting pays a little too much in real XP, because the returns on crafting a given item do not diminish in the same way that returns on killing monsters does. If you get 25 or 50 real XP for crafting something at your current level, you get 25 or 50 XP with each success, until you reach the next level. In the end it just seems like easy XP. Ten or twenty successes adds up to a lot of XP! Then again, as Neek said, you can grind away at monsters, or you can grind away at crafting...
As for crafting items costing XP...
At first, I objected. A lot of players just wouldn't craft, just like a lot of players won't make scrolls or wands because of the XP hit.
But...
Trading real XP for crafted items and crafting XP... so that a character could be very low level in their character class, but a highly skilled crafter, because they've been spending all the XP they accumulate adventuring or RPing at the crafting bench? That's kind of interesting too.
That actually makes a lot of sense.
And it would reduce the one-man-band problem, where a crafter doesn't need help to acquire every single thing they need to churn our a batch of arrows, daggers, or shields, and is effectively removed from RP and storylines on the server.
The profit from crafted items would be paid out in large part to all the adventurers who gathered the materials you needed to craft with.
Career crafters... could they gain real XP fast enough through RP and adventuring to become proficient at crafting at all? What would happen when, as WA said, they hit zero-sum?
Maybe crafters would all be retired adventurers, who had reached say level 10 and were ready to start working their way back down?
Does Vives want a pool of characters who are fixed to their crafting benches like this?
Does Vives want a pool of characters who are perenially low-level? I can see benefits, and I can see problems. I can also see no reason why a crafter shouldn't go on adventures with a party full of higher-level folks.
Anyway, just running with some of the things you folks have said already. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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