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Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 12 Oct 2007 05:32 AM |
Nobody else started a thread about it, and it's been out a few days, so I guess I'll start talking about it.
The storyline is pretty good so far, I like it. I won't ruin it; what I will say is that there is some inter-planar travel, and a pretty dark storyline. Also, it involves, from the best I can tell, black amorphous beings from beyond the cosmos, and I always love a good Lovecraftian influence.
They added some new races, Wood Elf, Half-Drow, and all the Genasi (Water, Earth, Fire, and Air).
They added some new base classes, Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman.
They added a few more prestige classes, Storm Lord, Arcane Scholar or Candlekeep, Red Wizard, few other things.
Epic levels, of course.
New heads, two new voice sets (that suck). Overall, some pretty neat new content.
My only problem with it is that when I tried to save, it told me "insufficient disk space," deleted my previous save, and crashed. I'm going to try again, since I definitely do not have "insufficient disk space," and just take more precautions. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 12 Oct 2007 12:26 PM |
| A few little bugs (dialog box gone) but a great storyline and good graphics |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 17 Oct 2007 10:20 AM |
Received it yesterday, and..... of course..... jumped straight to the toolset.
From the builders/design perspective, we couldn't have asked for a better sequel! The placeables/buildings/textures and other tools, fit perfectly with the World/places :)
I might even get around to playing the game sometime ;)
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 17 Oct 2007 02:03 PM |
Just give me an idea for when to expect Vives 2 That's right about the same time I'll buy the expansion ;o |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 17 Oct 2007 05:00 PM |
Eagerly awaiting Vives 2 myself.
But for now, Mask of the Betrayer is going great, got all the bugs worked out, enjoying the story, enjoying the peculiar characters and the update to the influence system. What's nice is that there are a lot of different opportunities to play different characters, might have to play through it one or two more times.
A thing of note is the support for four classes. How does Vives plan on handling that from a restriction issue? Same as now, requirement of 3+ levels in each class? |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 17 Oct 2007 06:31 PM |
| The level progression in V2 will be very slow. We probably won't have any restrictions on multi-classing for that reason, since most characters will find it hard to go over Level 10. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 17 Oct 2007 09:11 PM |
| Fictrix, you just made my day :D |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 18 Oct 2007 07:30 AM |
Hey everyone :). Been playing on the server on and off for a while. I must say it is beautiful and I'm sure Vives 2 will be also. Unfortunately, NWN2 held my attention for about 5 minutes :(. Don't think I progressed much passed level 3. I have no idea why.
I do have a question though. I've been reading through alot of threads and seen quite a few people have issues with high level characters. And now a comment about finding it difficult to get much passed level 10 on your new server. Is there a reason for this?
I'm asking because I've played on quite a few servers on and off over the years. I have found that high level characters can often keep a world alive and drive RP. Add new and great story lines and partake ... in fact often drive .... world altering events. This trickles down to the lower level, new adventurers in a world, creating quite a bit of vibrant RP and excitement of what is to come when one signs on to play.
I've found that worlds who hardcap levels or make it extremely difficult to grow your characters tend to make the server stagnate. Or you have a wash/rinse/repeat of new characters because the old ones are sitting there in sort of a 'forced' retirement. Eventually players get bored and leave because they are forced into a situation where they continually have to recycle new characters into the PW to play.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that high levels should come easy or that one should be able to reach them in a matter of weeks or even months. The main focus, for me at least is RP. However, I do enjoy seeing that constant RP flow into character growth at some point in time. I hate to be stifled as a player. I enjoy the many options that come with NWN. Potential for growth, combination of classes, etc. If I'm sitting at level 10 for months, seeing the same areas over and over again, never moving up or finding it so difficult to do so to see new areas and bring in fresh RP, the boredom trigger will get tripped.
High level characters do have a place and often a very important part of PW's if done right. There has to be balance :). |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 18 Oct 2007 09:50 AM |
We're not going to be hard-capping levels at all..... so theoretically it would be possible to progress all the way to level 40 (With MOTB).
However, we're keeping the same XP system in place as we have now, albeit with a few tweeks here and there. What naturally happens with our system is that people begin to level reasonably fast, as they explore (one-off area/description/trigger XP) or kill monsters (full XP the first time with decreasing amounts afterwards). \
This works very well........ but is also dependent on the "XP pool" which in Vives now, is massive, due to the sheer number of unique monsters/areas and such. This obviously won't be the case initially in Vives 2, as there'll be a smaller XP pool to start.
I would say the plateau/brick wall will be hit in the early teens as regards levelling in Vives 2..... it'll just be a grind/much slower to level after this, as you're down to the residual monster-bashing XP & most likely have used up exploration/lockpicking/static quest XP.
This is desirable for balance issues and also DM's & quests/storylines. Of course there will always be the exceptional few who play 12 hours a day and reach epic levels ;)
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 18 Oct 2007 01:39 PM |
So if it is difficult for the average Vives 2 player to make it to level 10. Hmmm.... I suppose I'll make it to 4-5.
It is all relative anyway. I am sure it will be lots of fun. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 18 Oct 2007 01:41 PM |
| *cough* |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 18 Oct 2007 01:43 PM |
I was planning to wait for Vives 2 before getting NWN2 but I went and ordered them both yesterday because I got tired of waiting.
I'm asking because I've played on quite a few servers on and off over the years. I have found that high level characters can often keep a world alive and drive RP. Add new and great story lines and partake ... in fact often drive .... world altering events. This trickles down to the lower level, new adventurers in a world, creating quite a bit of vibrant RP and excitement of what is to come when one signs on to play.
I've found that level is almost meaningless when driving RP.
I've found that worlds who hardcap levels or make it extremely difficult to grow your characters tend to make the server stagnate.
I just wanted to point out that character level != character growth. On average, I'd say your level makes up about 20% of your character growth (perhaps a bit more for ability driven classes like wizard). Most of the growth your character will go through is completely based on your RP.
I like the lower levels myself, and it is one thing that I am very happy to hear.
One concern in very slow advancement is EXP loss on death. I know in the past Paul mentioned possibly adopting a system like Thain's where you just can't gain combat EXP for 10 * level in minutes of IG time. Dieing, respawning and having to lose two months worth of EXP makes for very unhappy people. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 18 Oct 2007 01:47 PM |
Xerah,
We have a couple of ideas, although we've not yet decided which one to go with.
One of those ideas is to keep separate totals of XP given for various things, such as RP, combat, spellcasting, whatever. Any xp lost (if we have an xp losing system) might only come from one of the pools - so you might never lose RP xp for instance.
Anyway, we have time to work it out and make it better than in V1.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 18 Oct 2007 04:06 PM |
Well I guess we can agree to disagree :).
I find "level" for lack of a better word (I really don't like that word) ... Perhaps experience is better, to be a very good RP driving factor.
For instance, I'll use a character of mine that has been with me for years. Obviously her storyline changes to adapt to the PW, however her basic personality is the same. She is a wizard (Shadow mage) that stutters. She tends to be everyone's door mat. She tends to get picked on a lot. She talks to herself and has many other very odd personality quirks. PC's make fun of her, etc, etc. She's self-conscious and shy. You get the point ;). PC's tend to forget that she is highly intelligent. Now this level 2 experienced character really can't do much about all that. She takes it on the chin and drives on. However give her 10-12 levels/experience and guess what happens? When she finally gets tired of it and unleashes that phantasmal killer on someone who is harassing her and has ever since she was tiny ... guess what happens to that RP? It changes. It changes drastically and vibrantly for the better. The shock at what she was able to do to defend herself is almost guaranteed to be priceless when around another good RPer. Even if the spell was unleashed on say a big bad area boss instead of another harassing PC ... the effect is the same. Definately not meaningless. By the same token, one shouldn't be able to GET to that level within a matter of days.
So yes I believe it very much does drive RP if done correctly and has a LOT to do with character growth. Are you not more confident in your abilities when you grow? Etc, etc.
Many thanks to you Arathon for answering my question I've found Vive's xp system one of the most interesting systems around. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 18 Oct 2007 04:50 PM |
Being self-conscious and shy and being wrathful are both still RPable attributes at any level. What is really being analyzed is personal value...you value an effectively wrathful character. You could still RP an ineffective wrathful character and have it develop interestingly.
It's not levels or experience that creates background and plot; it's just doing stuff...which can be accomplished at any level. Some may think that doing stuff only has value when it involves dragons, arch-mages, and demonic entities, but you can still do stuff with orcs, goblins, and skeletons that is interesting and impactful from a character background perspective.
I've found that the full belabored leveling experience in Vives has ultimately created many interesting characters with extensive backgrounds. Things that happened a year ago when we were all lower level still play into our relationships today. I feel the real factor in good RP is time playing a character or rather the comfort of the player within the "skin" of that character regardless of level. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 18 Oct 2007 05:04 PM |
I never said it wasn't possible to do what you said. My example was none other than an example of how a higher level character can bring vibrant RP and to discount that they can't and thus making it difficult to reach whatever someone wishes too might be a mistake. And it was only "one" example. There are of course a plethora of other examples.
I understand completely what creates plot and what doesn't. What creates a rich storyline that is personal and unique for characters. I enjoy very much the low levels and it's nothing for me to stay at level 3 for months on end depending on what character I have. She is one of them as she is more interested in talking to her raven, washing her clothes until they are rags and playing with alchemy. However, I also don't like to be limited and have something "out of reach".
Since that question was addressed, I'm very comfortable with the answer :) |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 18 Oct 2007 07:11 PM |
On the subject of experience loss, I had a thought.
Is there a way to make experience loss based on time, not a percentage? Memory would, I imagine, sit heavily on the mind past X amount of hours. Perhaps death would cause loss of all non-roleplay experience gained in the past 48 hours, or whatever? Just a thought. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 01:11 AM |
Why was xp loss implemented originally? Not sure, as I wasn't here when those decisions were made.
Why was it kept? It was kept to give "death" (and really, death is very rare in vives for PCs) some bite.
If all the PCs were never afraid of the consequences of their actions, then things woudl get silly. For example, one PC who never cared about dying once he reached a certain level would attack a monster, die, respawn, run back, attack, die, respawn.... until he beat the monster.
It's a bit of an immersion breaker to witness this happen.
Also, if the system has some "pain" involved, then it will impact RP in a positive manner.
Does it mean we will keep it for V2? Will it be as harsh? Or will it be somewhat like the system that Thain uses? (which reminds me, I need to pop over there to see what other interesting ideas they have developed - thanks Thain guys!). Time will tell.
Whatever system we use, the two main goals of it are (in my mind):
- death (or being beaten down) has to have meaning so that characters don't treat it as a joke
- that it doesn't punish the RP players more heavily then it would punish the XP grinders.
It's not easy, but whatever we will do, we will try to improve on what we have done with V1.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 05:47 AM |
How about xp gain for different activities based on class? It may be realistic, but I can't see that it has much merit other than that.
I can understand that it is better that some classes (monk) gain experience more slowly than others (bard), but wouldn't it be better to just make the percentage the same for all types of experience?
The current xp system makes say, a rogue that can't (or won't) pick locks gain xp much more slowly than the 'classic' rogue. It also penalizes multiclassing even more than the standard rules. Even if you do want to penalise multiclass characters I don't see why it is necessary to keep the xp gain high for a few activities and low for others. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 09:55 AM |
How about xp gain for different activities based on class? It may be realistic, but I can't see that it has much merit other than that.
I can understand that it is better that some classes (monk) gain experience more slowly than others (bard), but wouldn't it be better to just make the percentage the same for all types of experience?
The current xp system makes say, a rogue that can't (or won't) pick locks gain xp much more slowly than the 'classic' rogue. It also penalizes multiclassing even more than the standard rules. Even if you do want to penalise multiclass characters I don't see why it is necessary to keep the xp gain high for a few activities and low for others.
I agree that the current XP system isn't perfect. I can easily see how a fighter, who has the ability to grind maximum points from defeating foes, rises more quickly than a rogue, whose choices are more limited. I find that monster-bashing XP pools give a lot more of an advantage to "fighting" classes, since the great amount of monsters constantly added to Vives maintain most of the XP pool growth.
In addition, I can't see why some classes should get more XP than others at all, even with a "better" XP system implemented. No reason whatsoever a monk should get less XP than a bard, especially not because one is "stronger" and the other "weaker.
I find that an equal opportunity to gain XP based on class ability to work best, much like how Vives is now. However, a system like that is probably difficult to script, moreover maintain as the server progresses. Monster and exploration experience pools outgrew the other pools, since new additions were made, while other spells/abilities remained mostly stationary. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 10:16 AM |
I can understand that it is better that some classes (monk) gain experience more slowly than others (bard), but wouldn't it be better to just make the percentage the same for all types of experience?
I like the fact that more powerful classes have slower XP growth. Case in point: Clerics, the most overpowered class of all. They can:
* Cast offensive spells
* Summon
* Buff summons
* Buff allies
* Buff themselves
* Resurrect
* Wear all armour and shields
* Wield all simple weapons
And unlike mages, when they run out of spells to fling, they're not hopeless. They're armoured enough, and usually buffed enough, to then charge in and join the fight as a tank.
The XP system has done a great job of squelching Cleric progression. You very rarely saw Clerics, even when the server was full. They were in high demand and very valuable, mostly for their resurrection ability (which annoyed many PCs, who had to deal with constant requests). This made the Cleric class more valuable than it otherwise would have been. It was very hard to get one up to the level where they could perform raises, and in turn, it made them rare and sought-after.
If they levelled as fast as Bards did, we'd lose that. It would also horrendously imbalance the already-imbalanced d20 system.
Bards, in contrast, get more XP than anyone else. Yet in all my time here, I have never seen anyone power-level a Bard and never seem a powergamer Bard. At Level 15, a Bard is probably still nowhere near as useful as a Level 9 Fighter or Cleric or Rogue or other popularly-played class.
Yet Bards are just as sought-after as Clerics. Not for buffs or spells or prowess in combat; but they have always been in high demand for writing plays, poems and songs. The boost in XP helps with their survivability (more HP) but not much else. But that's fine, because they add to any adventure or situation something mechanics never could. The extra levels are nice because it makes them more survivable, which in turn means they can snap off one or two witticisms before actually getting absolutely squishified. But other than that, the faster XP gain doesn't really do much, and most Bards have always been more RP-focused than any other class and rarely venture past their early teens anyway.
To me, this indicates the system works and doesn't need fixing. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 11:17 AM |
In addition, I can't see why some classes should get more XP than others at all, even with a "better" XP system implemented. No reason whatsoever a monk should get less XP than a bard, especially not because one is "stronger" and the other "weaker.
I find that an equal opportunity to gain XP based on class ability to work best, much like how Vives is now. However, a system like that is probably difficult to script, moreover maintain as the server progresses. Monster and exploration experience pools outgrew the other pools, since new additions were made, while other spells/abilities remained mostly stationary.
I agree with Fictrix that less powerful builds and classes should receive more xp. Although 3.5 classes are more balanced so the difference should probably be less in Vives 2.
The point I wished to address was that there is little reason to have a fighter wizard gain less xp for using magic and more xp for combat than a normal wizard.
In other words why not use an xp table more like this:
Barbarian: 70%
Bard: 100%
Cleric: 50%
Druid: 65%
Fighter: 65%
Monk: 55%
Paladin: 70%
Ranger: 75%
Rogue: 75%
etc
(numbers made up on the spot)
This would allow you to make a direct comparison between classes. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 11:45 AM |
I actually think it makes plenty of sense. It rewards people who are using the special abilities of that class.
Semantically, it also makes sense, especially when it comes to cross-classing.
* A warrior class, already experienced in the art of war, will find it easier to cross-class to another warrior class. This is represented by Fighters, Barbarians etc having high Combat XP.
* A warrior class, totally inexperienced in magic, would find it difficult to diversify and learn the arcane arts. A fighter cross-classing to wizard would not learn as quickly from casting spells as a sorcerer who does the same. This is because the sorcerer is already proficient and is assumed, even as low as level 1, to have had years of experience. (This works in real life too. Try switching career tracks. It's hard to learn a whole new skill set.)
* A rogue's specialty is in their skills. If they decide to focus on the arcane arts or martial arts, then they will have less time to practice their skills, as they are training for the new class (ie. cross-classing).
* A bard is a jack-of-all-trades. Those who cross-class to bard are quick learners, versed in gossip and gathering information, and picking up new skills and trades quickly. The bard's overall high xp percentage will raise any other class's slightly to reflect this.
* Any class would find it difficult to become a cleric. It requires a great deal of devotion and faith to one's patron deity. Level progression overall slows down to reflect this struggle.
The granular percentages work really well, because it makes sense for certain class combinations to synergise, while others will struggle and take a hit in XP progression as they attempt to switch to a completely different play style. It reflects the character's struggle to cope with an entirely new skillset to the one they have had for years and years.
If a Fighter cross-classed to Wizard and learned from casting spells just as quickly as a Sorcerer who did the same, it makes little sense. Surely the Sorcerer would find it easier to level up by continuing to cast spells (which they have been doing for years) than the Fighter (who only started lessons yesterday). |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 12:03 PM |
I prefer not to think of multiclassing as training in a new skill or following two careers at once. To me a multiclass character represents a someone who is progressing in a discipline that teaches multiple qualities. In other words I see multiclassing as a way of creating your own class. Rather than thinking of a character as a bard/cleric I think of him (or her) as a cantor. A rogue/paladin is an inquisitor. A druid/dragon disciple is a dragon shaman (perhaps not the same rules as in the book of nine swords but the same in RP terms).
The paladin class is essentially a cross between cleric and fighter, but thats no reason why it should be considered to be a character that follows two disciplines.
In any case, if the game stays balanced does it matter how hard a character is practicing when not being played? |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 19 Oct 2007 12:14 PM |
I like Vives' EXP system. It's at least 3.14 times as better than any other out there.
(which annoyed many PCs, who had to deal with constant requests)
Actually, it worked out well for my character. I kept time stamped stats on every raise that she did in case she had to call in favours later. Well, I guess the OOC ones did bother me.
Sorry to toss this subject way off with the EXP loss comment, I just wanted to mention the importance of a good system with slow leveling...although, oddly, I think I'd rather a limited form of permadeath than massive EXP losses. Don't ask.
Anywho, since we're already off topic, maybe we can poke people for information, specifically LORE information. When can we get some of this? I know there was quite a bit defined before I left (which I'm sure has vastly changed) and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is interesting to read some of it. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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