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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 12:35 AM |
No, you're right... time will tell. I admit that I feel the little black raincloud is hovering over me at the moment... and I hope that it is all just a result of letting the "naysayers" get to me.
If that is all you are reading, then yes, you might expect to feel that way. I've played halfway(?) through the SP campaign before reading that thread. Some of the problems they pointed out, I didn't even notice because I really didnt think they were all that much of an issue.
But that still doesn't quench the bleah taste in my mouth over how they released the game in such a state.
The online game modding community is such a blessing, extending the life and replayability of many a game... but I wonder how many people thought that it would bring about a time when game developers just tossed stuff together not caring if it really worked or not, and included a toolset, and expected the people who bought their product to finnish it for them.
Well, at least I have confidence in the Vives builders, even if the game developers seem to have their heads up their...........
That's unfair to the developers. Software is difficult, especially complex software. Most of the developers take pride in their work. I've met few who would claim they "dont care" especially game developers (who tend to be a lot more passionate about their work.
If you left development to the developers, the game would never be released until it is perfect. (The number of times that I met a developer over the last 25 years who thought his software was finished and perfect can be counted on 1 finger). The reality is, that management makes a decision as to when finished is "finished" regardless of the state of perfection.
Software is *hard*. The desire to get features in, the optimism of the developers (all software developers are optimists at heart), the lack of knowledge (generally) that managers have on how software gets developed in a timely fashion, marketing constraints, yadda, yadda... Well, these things are inevitable.
If this is a concern, don't buy the game. Wait a few weeks, or months, and then see what people have to say. Not happy about it then? Wait more.
I, however, am generally pleased with the game and the engine.
Remember, NWN1 took 2 years to become really good.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 01:30 AM |
That's unfair to the developers. Software is difficult, especially complex software. Most of the developers take pride in their work. I've met few who would claim they "dont care" especially game developers (who tend to be a lot more passionate about their work.
If you left development to the developers, the game would never be released until it is perfect. (The number of times that I met a developer over the last 25 years who thought his software was finished and perfect can be counted on 1 finger). The reality is, that management makes a decision as to when finished is "finished" regardless of the state of perfection.
Software is *hard*. The desire to get features in, the optimism of the developers (all software developers are optimists at heart), the lack of knowledge (generally) that managers have on how software gets developed in a timely fashion, marketing constraints, yadda, yadda... Well, these things are inevitable.
Yes, quite right.
I stewed over it a bit after I posted, and had come to much the same conclusion... that it is more a problem with the overall system, than the developers themselves.
If this is a concern, don't buy the game. Wait a few weeks, or months, and then see what people have to say. Not happy about it then? Wait more.
And since I am not in the financial situation to upgrade, and therefore it would be pointless for me to buy now, I had planned to do this very thing.
I, however, am generally pleased with the game and the engine.
Remember, NWN1 took 2 years to become really good.
- Paul
Heh... actually, no I don't remember. By the time I discovered NWN1, Persistent Worlds were already going strong, so I missed out on all the growing pains... that obviously colored my perception of the whole matter.
It is alright, I'm a bit more sanguine about it all now that you and Ara have said you are rather pleased with the potential. |
"I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt
My characters n portraits |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 01:52 AM |
I definatley feel, just by a quick glance at alot of the game. It has such a huge potential for multiplayer worlds, most respectively - I felt my character was "more in scale" to the world around it. Cities felt alot larger, I can see the design tools in the hands of the Vives team producing a spectacular world. The flexibility of the system is just -- there, for the using and the abusing. The expansion amount of options there are, the amount of feats. I don't have that many "sour grapes" with the game, certainly not enough to return the game at all.
From now on, I wish to be refered to as Knight-Captain as well. And I wish for Pdwalker to grant me a keep, in which to tithe the miserable underlings of Vives 1.
Thank You. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 06:02 AM |
No I'm Knight-Captain! I challenge you to a du-el! En garde! Tu mange le possum! *waggles a lampshade*
I beat the game. It was easy. and I was happy that my character could properly interact with the characters that I considered annoying, and then had the joy of killing them mercilessly. Targeting things was a slight annoyance sometimes, and I had to pause numerous times to micromanage my death squad of doom - which in hindsight is probably why I was so successful despite the nuances.
There are bugs.
That's okay though, because the engine is pretty.
Have faith in this game's future.
Midoran's Will Be Done! |
CHOO CHOO!
- - - - - -
Bereil Yadashem.
Markus Mortriety, Herald of Novus Aristi. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 08:08 AM |
Midoran's Will Be Done!
Hey! That's my line! |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 11:20 AM |
As a fellow software engineer, I second everything Paul said about software development.
Was I disappointed with NWN2? Yeah, sure, there are many things about this game that still need work. Was I surprised that it got released in this state? Not a bit. For the reasons that Paul stated, and also because that has become the release model for every software company today. It is not right, but it is reality.
Would Atari/Obsidian sell more copies upon release if it were bulletproof? It's debatable. I guess that most fans of CRPG that thought their hardware could run it, bought it. Lets be honest, no one who has bought a game in the last decade should be surprised that NWN2 was released like this.
To be sure, the QA process goes much faster when you have hoards of gamers trying to beat the game, and posting raging flames about this or that show-stopper that they stumbled upon.
If Atari sticks with the game, and we see improvements ala NWN1.... all will be forgoten until NWN3 comes out and they once again destroy the franchise!
In the meantime, if you want to play now, set your expectations to beta, 'cause thats what this game is right now. |
All my problems are meaningless
But that don't make them go away
~ Neil Young "On the Beach" |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 12:01 PM |
I jumped on the NWN bandwagon only a couple of years ago in search of a computer interface that could replace my Chessex mat. When I found the NWVault I was simply amazed. And really the community is what made it so good. If Bioware locked up their code it would have been a sad, ridiculous little game (There were no hills -- just ziggurat like cliffs -- that blew my mind that it was released like that).
I read the 101 problems with NWN2 and found it annoying almost to the point of being offensive. He was complaining about the box!! C'mon, that's sad. It is apparent to me he really needed to get to 101 which smacks of theatrics more than a desire to make a viable point and moreover seemed like a typical emotional response to something that is DIFFERENT.
I've imagined what it would be like if the NBA announced a new rule that all players on the court must carry with them a 30 lb dumbbell. There would be a lot of whining and complaining from fans and players, the games would slow down and look clumsy, and some of the older players would retire because they couldn't adapt, but after a while players would negotiate the weight and even start using the momentum in ways to enhance their playing until once again players would be doing phenomenal, crazy stuff on the court. It would take time and the game would look different, but it would eventually create enjoyment again.
I've read a few editorials from a fellow over on the Warcry site (whose opinion I respect far more than the 101 guy) who said the game will be different by virtue of the severe reduction in areas that can be implemented in a mod. That seems like the most real 30 lb weight right there. The tendency working within the restrictions would be to pack so much information into every area, each would feel like reading a chapter of "Finnegan's Wake". But then I have a blind faith that with advances in technology and creative minds working on the problem there will eventually be a workaround.
I'm waiting to buy the game too. It's not because I believe the game is junk, but because I'm starting to believe that software design needs a global effort by passionate people to make something good --> excellent. Obsidian created the base but they were working in the box of time and budget constraints both of which have a tendency to dilute the passion a bit. Now it is time (though it does wrankle me a bit that we should pay for something that is incomplete) for new fresh minds to examine the issues and make the changes to improve the gaming experience, and hopefully share them. In my mind, NWN has shown me that companies are not best for making good software; maybe best for creating excitement and focussing the work. It takes a global community to really make it good.
*picks up soapbox and 30 lb dumbbell and walks away in squeaky shoes* |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 14 Nov 2006 12:30 PM |
I've been watching this thread and I agree with some of you, that a lot of the complaints are merely a public reaction to the game being diffeent than they expected.
Nevertheless, as a member of a professional team that works on much more complicated projects than video game software - namely urban design - I have to say that defending the slap dash release of this product as "just the way it is in software dvelopment", is a bit ... irresponsible from the stand point of a consumer. I respect your jobs and understand their importance. But there are many more difficult and complicated jobs out there that don't allow this huge margin of error. And it is up to consumers to avoid purchasing products that they are not satisfied by. Otherwise you are supporting an industry that isn't producing what you want.
If software is going to be sold as a finished product it needs to be a finished product. Otherwise the business model should change to reflect it. Until it does I will not support these sorts of efforts.
----
And yes I do have an idea of what goes into software development, as before I entered my current profession I was a web developer. Not C/C++ programming, but enough Java, and scripting along with QA management in addition to the web development that I have a good grasp of the profession. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 15 Nov 2006 02:06 PM |
Just scanned through the link PD provided. I can't comment on any of the DM or multiplayer points as I haven't bothered with those yet. However, I am finding most of the single player campaign points either petty or bizarre. Maybe my standards are lower, but I've found the game very enjoyable thus far (I'm somewhere in the Act I). I suppose it conforms to the typical D&D "normal person thrown into mysterious quest to ultimately save the world from evil" storyline, complete with enigmatic item that is one of a set, in this case the silver shard. But it would be kinda boring if it was a quest to determine average survival for early breast cancer. Then it would be work. Oh wait, that is what I'm doing at work today.
OK, back to the topic. Yeah, a few of the things mentioned annoy me, but not to the point of ranting. Like I initially wished the 'tab' key still highlighted interactable items instead of the 'z' key. Boo-hoo. I got over it. New game, new controls. It's like getting a new boss. Even if everything is great the new boss feels they have to change somethign to make it look like they did something. Dumb but true. Anyhow, one week later I am used to hitting 'z'. Plus alot of the things that still annoy me are fixable, either by Bioware or the player community.
The most important things to me are:
(1) Believable NPCs to interact with
(2) Party members you eventually care about (I'm shockingly getting attached to the Dwarf)
(3) Storyline
I have found all these things in NWN2 single player campaign. Curiously, I didn't find them in NWN1. In fact, I quit the NWN1 single player campaign halfway through chapter 1 because it just didn't grab me.
Lisen |
Beware the vortex of bureaucracy |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 15 Nov 2006 08:53 PM |
Ok, I just finished the OC and although I agree with most of the 101 points, I still enjoyed a lot of the game. But was it worth getting a new comp right away? I think I should've waited for the 2nd or 3rd major patch.
My first impressions:
- Performance: Can be increased, I'm sure, but will also decrease again when custom content comes in (compare the NWN 1 campaign to something like Vives and watch the FPS you get on an older comp ). Anyway, it started with major stuttering, graphics lag even in 800x600, but after a few hours of work I got the game to a playable state even at 1600x1200 with nice graphics. And I think this will improve with patches, since performance was one of the major complains from the community.
- gameplay: Hard to get used to the UI, but after one or two days it works, with some major exceptions. Quite a few things in the UI need fixes, at the moment they are frustrating in single player and make multiplayer games without player pausing impossible.
Targeting enemies without pause is impossible, unless that doesn't get fixed, I won't even try multiplayer.
- The story is.... neat. Not great, and the first act was plain boring. It doesn't offer much choices though, best if you play a LG Paladin or a CG rogue who does a few bad things but "finds the right way" after a while. I started over with an evil char and it got just frustrating, so if you don't want to slaughter the whole world around you, better don't try. But after all, it was a nice entertaining story. Replay value? Low. Maybe a 2nd time to get those quests you missed during the first run, but then you know the campaign inside out.
Some NPCs are fun (my favourite companion being Sand), some are really annoying, but for most I just didn't care. There are 2 romance options (1 for each gender) that made me drop one companion for the rest of the game because I couldn't stand the flirting. Guess I missed a sidequest, but who cares... :)
Hated the ending.
- AI is horrible. Sometimes worse than NWN1. Micromanage or forget it.
- Graphics? If it wasn't for a bit of eyecandy, I'd be the last one playing NWN1 until there's no other player left in the online world. But I like eyecandy, it was one of the reasons I started playing in Vives and why I had to buy NWN2 immediately after release. And if I wouldn't care for the visuals, I'd play PnP games, because visuals are what you have that computer and the big screen for.
I'm... hmm... not disappointed, no. But it looks like NWN1 with better graphics... a few more polygons, nicer textures, more details. I love it, compared to the old game, but from it's look I wouldn't expect it to bring down highend PCs with SLI graphics cards and all the bells and whistles. It looks like an average game, a bit outdated even. From it's look I would expect this game to run on an average 2003 home computer.
Anyway, I bought the game for multiplayer, and I wouldn't recommend it right now. There's *nothing* in the game that makes it comparable to NWN1 out of the box.
Emotes? Hah, about 5. You can't even sit without some fixes or scripts from the vault.
Voices? Same as in NWN1 (boy was I disappointed! There are *no* new voicesets at all! ).
Toolset... well. I'm a starter. I bought this PC, and before I never had access to the NWN toolset at all (coming from a Mac). I tried out the one from NWN1 and immediately was in the middle of building my first module. It was easy. But the NWN2 toolset? Leave it for the gifted. It might be absolutely powerful, offer ten times as much to the experienced builder, but... hell, I don't understand it.
I mean, how did building and the whole mod and multiplayer community start back then? An easy to use toolset, no? You start it and immediately have success, and then you dig a bit deeper, find new things to play with, start getting interested in scripting, etc. But the very start is the easy toolset with all the wizards and stuff... the NWN2 toolset is just scary. Nothing is where it was before. I tried to build a NPC and gave up on it. Not to mention that it constantly crashes, but that might be fixed later.
Anyway, I doubt we'll see the huge amount of PWs we had in NWN1, because only the experienced builders or those who rather spend their time learning a new program than simply playing will use this thing. Or it's just me who's too dumb...
Recommendation: Buy the game, but not now. Buy it next year, it'll be cheaper, it'll be fixed, and when you have finished the OC you might be able to find a server to play on. If you buy it now, you'll first run into technical issues, then play for about a week, then look at the multiplayer part, find nothing, put the game on the side and you're back in good old NWN1.
I don't see any fun in multiplayer until... I'd say until the first expansion is out. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 16 Nov 2006 08:07 AM |
OK, back to the topic. Yeah, a few of the things mentioned annoy me, but not to the point of ranting. Like I initially wished the 'tab' key still highlighted interactable items instead of the 'z' key. Boo-hoo. I got over it. New game, new controls. It's like getting a new boss. Even if everything is great the new boss feels they have to change somethign to make it look like they did something. Dumb but true. Anyhow, one week later I am used to hitting 'z'. Plus alot of the things that still annoy me are fixable, either by Bioware or the player community.
That's the only part that didn't bother me, since I remapped all my keys as they are in NWN1. However, pressing tab or in your case Z may light up the items and baddies and allies, but there's no more text above them. At the moment I find it rather very hard as a spellcaster (yup, I'm playing a wizard) to play in real time. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 16 Nov 2006 10:13 AM |
That's the only part that didn't bother me, since I remapped all my keys as they are in NWN1.However, pressing tab or in your case Z may light up the items and baddies and allies, but there's no more text above them. At the moment I find it rather very hard as a spellcaster (yup, I'm playing a wizard) to play in real time.
Yes, not having the names above annoys me too. I like knowing who I'm killing. I'm hoping that's one of the things Bioware 'fixes'.
I have expanded my horizons from my usual rogue or ranger to a cleric. And guess who it is, PD? Pixen. Just warming her up for her Vives2 debut.
Lisen |
Beware the vortex of bureaucracy |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 16 Nov 2006 05:27 PM |
| Anyone know if they ever start telling you "Barely wounded, wounded, badly wounded, near death"? |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 16 Nov 2006 06:58 PM |
Anyone know if they ever start telling you "Barely wounded, wounded, badly wounded, near death"?
Nope, but if you right-click anything there is a status box appears, any creature has a health bar displayed alonside its pic showing much the same info.
Actually locating the creature in the midst of battle is quite another thing though.
Targetting etc definitely needs improving |
Nos laetus epulor is quisnam mos onero nos: Dana's family motto, if she had one
(Translation) We gladly feast on he who will oppress us |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 17 Nov 2006 12:35 AM |
Using tab or backslash key selects enemies. No more missing with the mouse. From there, any spell that you cast will automatically target that creature, so no need to try to select just creature from within a mob.
Seems to work ok for me.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 17 Nov 2006 12:41 AM |
Anyone know if they ever start telling you "Barely wounded, wounded, badly wounded, near death"?
To me this is a good thing. Since generally, different characters have different thresholds as to what their character might consider wounded. A funny little character, known as Seil for example - would not consider lots of gashes and wounds on her body to be "near death" in my opinion :). |
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Re: This isn't looking good...
Posted: 19 Nov 2006 11:24 PM |
I have one major gripe with this game and I'm talking MAJOR gripe, not enough for me to send the game back but close.
Gnomes. Upon meeting these miserable excuses for beings in the OC there should ALWAYS (there is sometimes but it's not enough) be the option of yelling "Arrrgh! It's another bleedin' gnome! Quickly! Kill it before it can open it's mouth!" And then, upon killing said sighted gnome, the entire party should have their own personalised version of: "Phew, another near disaster averted" speech line after the gnome/s in question is/are dead.
I'm already planning my character for Vives2: An evil ranger with favoured enemy: gnomes and every gnome slaying weapon he can find. Trust me. It's going to be extremely satisfying.
As for the rest of the game, I love it. I havn't been plagued by technical issues like most people seem to have been, think I crashed twice throughout the OC. (which is no more than any other game I play) I love the story although I would have liked more involved side-quest options. Side-quests in BG2 (my favourite all-time game) where large spralling affairs, they just seem a little truncated in NWN2 and the player is forced back to the main storyline too often for my liking.
I havn't really looked at Multiplayer yet. I'm actually having a really difficult time creating a new char for Vives2. I loved playing Cantor and now that I'm trying to make a new char I keep finding problems with them. Cantor had good Str, Int and Cha. All characters need good strength to be able to carry loot around, (don't even bother suggesting that loot might not be necessary) and I think Int and Cha are improtant abilities for holding up a conversation properly because I get frustrated continually pretending to be an idiot of one sort or another. Can't play a paladin because they're all goodie-goodie two-shoes. Let's see that leaves.... ohh look... Blackguard. See where my problem lies? |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: This isn't looking good... (nwn2 campaign spoiler)
Posted: 20 Nov 2006 02:58 AM |
Ahahahha...
*spoiler*
There is an option where you can sacrifice the gnome to a greater devil.
I won't spoil what happens afterwards though.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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patch 1.03 details
Posted: 20 Nov 2006 09:02 AM |
This is a biggie..
http://nwvault.ign.com/fullstory.php?id=23495 |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: patch 1.03 details
Posted: 05 Dec 2006 08:50 AM |
A nice article featuring a few quotes from some names you might recognize.
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2Articles.Detail&id=177 |
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Re: patch 1.03 details
Posted: 07 Dec 2006 12:17 PM |
Also........
Quite a lot of reports saying the latest patch (1.03) has gone a long way in reducing choppiness and improving framerates etc.......
People who had troubles might wanna patch and check it out :D
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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