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Philosophy
Posted: 10 Dec 2003 07:40 PM |
I checked with the admins, and Ara got back to me saying it was OK to post this.
I think we're all (or at least a good part of us) pretty damned smart. So, I would enjoy the chance to debate with people where it isn't one sided. Simple philosophy has many facets to it, so we could debate it for hours on end.
So, I suppose being one to start this, I ought to come up with something to philosophize about. So, here we go. There is/are a God/gods. I think that has enough enerta in it to debate for a good long time *Grins* |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 10 Dec 2003 07:50 PM |
I moved this out of Flames, since I dind't see why it needed to be there.
And, as for the topic, I am most interested. I recall numerous conversations Aria & I had in IRC about various related topics....
-Q
Moved again to the new forum, Off-topic.
~Alo |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 10 Dec 2003 08:00 PM |
There is/are a God/gods
Most certainly not, according to the traditional western views of such things (and many eastern views as well). It's very simple rationale, in fact... If each sect, cult and/or religion claims to be the ultimate source of the truth (concerning such trite things as existence), then the others must certainly be wholly incorrect and thus doomed to an afterlife of the worst kind according to said ultimate source of truth. Question is, which one is right, thus making all the others wrong? My bet is that they're all wrong, ergo no such animal as the putative western diety.
-Q
((How's that for a first answer, Tasra?)) |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 10 Dec 2003 08:07 PM |
The Question would be completely dependent on one's definition of a "God"..... without an agreed definition it's a pointless debate imho.
Then there is the usual burden of proof/Science/Faith question...... most Common religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc) actually all agree on a One Being as God and define him in remarkably similar ways....... in fact as almost identical. Where they do differ however, is upon apparent "Fact" in the Koran and Bible. Jesus/Mohammed etc etc....
Then we get into the whole Bible and other Religious Scriptures thing..... and whether it is fact within or fiction.
Too tired....... I'll watch with interest and chuck in my two penneth later ;) |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 10 Dec 2003 08:23 PM |
I'll edit this post with my opinions when I know I won't piss people off .
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 10 Dec 2003 10:20 PM |
I dont belive in Gods... All that religion defends was proved wrong by science. Even the things religion is supost to defend they dont, based on Gods, regilion and similiar bull*** man had ages of darkness, where science couldnt go further, milions have died. And all based and made in Gods name... God...a word invented to explain what man cant explain YET, then that words looses all his sence. But man is quick enought to find another thing he cant explain and say ye maybe that wasnt maybe Earth isnt the center of the universe BUT Man was created by Him, oh seams not then then then...Then it makes no sence.
I dont mean to ofend those who belive. And I even respect them. We just have diferent ways of thinking. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 02:45 AM |
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
Energy can be changed, but never created or destroyed.
These are two of the fundamental scientific principles. Yet, energy was created. There was a reaction which did not have an action which can scientificly be explained; ie the creation of the universe.
So how can there not be a God?
-Barnas |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 03:24 AM |
Of God,
As I see it is all matter of faith and believing.
with regards,
Elvin |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 06:51 AM |
"These are two of the fundamental scientific principles. Yet, energy was created. There was a reaction which did not have an action which can scientificly be explained; ie the creation of the universe" - Barnas.
It has been explained in Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" :P |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 06:52 AM |
Welll, if it's all a matter of faith rather then any evidence, as some mentioned previously how can one decide which religion is the 'correct' one? And when it comes to that, why shouldn't you believe in things such as the tooth fairy?
Intact it makes more sense to believe in the tooth fairy, since at least there's more evidence of her existence (well, my teeth were always replaced with coins). |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 07:59 AM |
| All paths lead home! |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 08:04 AM |
God...a word invented to explain what man cant explain YET, then that words looses all his sence.
So yes Barnas untill now we have no great explanation for that, but like in other times, when we didnt knew if the earth was the center of the universe, or if it was possible to go to the moon, and everyone would say no. Like all those things now we have this how everything started, and when we find the answer whats the reason of your God? Or will church look for another reason for it? |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 09:01 AM |
I think this is more a question of your perspective on life. Some people see the beauty and amazing complexity of things like trees, animals, planets etc and can see god in the ultimate design of such things. Others take a more logical, reasonable view and look for evidence like evolution, physical laws and how the history of religion holds up against such things. Both views are equally valid.
My main thoughts on this subject are:
1. Nobody can prove the existence or non-existance of a god, so while I believe there COULD be a god I don't actually think there is one. And if such a thing did exist I doubt very much that any religion on Earth has got it right.
2. If such a force did exist it is so totally unfathomable by us as to be totally useless. You've heard the phrase "god moves in mysterious ways," well.. those ways are mysterious to every single person on Earth.
3. We don't need a god. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 09:31 AM |
3. We don't need a god.
Unless you play a cleric and want your spells back after resting :P
-Q |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 10:19 AM |
There must be a god for the simple reason that we couldn't exist otherwise. It is just too much to think that it is coincidence that the Earth is the perfect posistion from the sun to have life, that the sun is just right to have life, that we have all the outside contitions to keep us in our orbit, AND that we have carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen, the basic organic units.
There must be a God or gods out there to keep all these things here, for the simple reason to keep us alive. Why would they want to keep us alive? Just for the simple reason they get a good kick out of watching/listening to us figure out thier ways. |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 10:37 AM |
We can and could exist without gods....... the Universe is infinity, that is Science fact. So within infinity everything does exist, and us having the necessary elements to sustain Human Life is unavoidable. There's nothing coincidental about it.... it is 100% definite it will happen due to the nature of Infinity and the Universe.
So bearing this in mind..... the argument of there must be one because we have all these organic units that enable us to live, is quite simply misjudgement :D
But then of course this is dependent on you definition of a "God".
Ta
Ara |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 11:58 AM |
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Ben Franklin (or whoever said he said it) |
My lamentable plight... I am calamity.
fire... burning....agony...
sultry shivers of a dark essence
why am i tortured with this nihilistic existence?
-Maddox |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 12:05 PM |
Alas, Arathon, I beg to differ! Infinaty is impossible, implausable. The Universe as we know it is instead a sphere. While some may say the universe is expanding, it's really just moving inside the sphere. There could be any number of such things, each different, however, that is beyond me. In some years to come, there will be an oposite of the Big Bang. I'll call it the Big Smack. This is where all the galaxies and stars and planets smack into each other. Maybe not at the same time, but, it will be one body, and become the quinessence of "Energy". Or, as I see it. Then, this energy will become too great, and it will break apart again, starting the cycle all over.
Of course, I have no proof for this, but it -is- a popular theory, and with some reasearch, I could probably fetch more evidence to prove my point.
Tasra (the Great!) |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 12:06 PM |
The argument about it being too improbable for us to have occurred without direct divine intervention, because the odds are too low, is hogwash. Just because you have ten places where your keys might be, making it a 10% chance they will be any one place, doesn't mean that you have to look in all ten places to find them. You might find them first try. Therefore the fact that we exist might just as well be proof that the extremely improbably did occur, as it is proof that direct divine intervention was required in order for it to occur.
Science need not be in conflict with religion. Why the universe is the way it is, is a different question from how the universe works. Religion is the former; science is the latter. What's outside the universe is unknowable to us by definition. One hand can't clap. But saying that the mystery of being dictates what I should eat, wear, or in what position I should, erm, well anyway ... That's nonsense. I don't go to church, I don't belong to an organized religion, I do feel what I think are religious feelings towards the universe and whatever is not of the universe. It's all a fantasy. Being born, eating, sleeping, reproducing your own kind, and being run over by a speeding bus are reality. I really don't think a deity had anything to do with those things however.
Maybe the whole universe is a divine creature and we are continually making up a tiny part of it. Hopefully the part each of us created today was something we can feel good about. There's nothing else that matters. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 12:08 PM |
"Alas, Arathon, I beg to differ! Infinaty is impossible, implausable. The Universe as we know it is instead a sphere. While some may say the universe is expanding, it's really just moving inside the sphere. There could be any number of such things, each different, however, that is beyond me. In some years to come, there will be an oposite of the Big Bang. I'll call it the Big Smack. This is where all the galaxies and stars and planets smack into each other. Maybe not at the same time, but, it will be one body, and become the quinessence of "Energy". Or, as I see it. Then, this energy will become too great, and it will break apart again, starting the cycle all over.
Of course, I have no proof for this, but it -is- a popular theory, and with some reasearch, I could probably fetch more evidence to prove my point." - Tasra
What exists outside of this Sphere then? |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 12:15 PM |
*shrugs* My thoughts on this are too complex for my currently struggling brain to possibly write down. Coherently, at any rate.
You know, I'll go with the D&D cosmology know. I kinda like it. |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 12:25 PM |
Arathon, that beats the hell out of me. My theory is that it's like a giant bag of marbles, where our universe is but one marble in a bag. Should we pop out of it, and into another, we may find ourselves in a completely different universe, and each different bag of marbles would be a plane. Each would be different, each universe, planet, star, plane, and galaxy.
This is my word, and this is my law.
Tasra (the Great!) |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 12:44 PM |
The Universe is nothingness, it's one big Vacuum. It is endless and thus all possibilities and probabilities are true. Hence my argument above ;)
and the Question |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 01:04 PM |
Actually it's not one big vacuum, there are particles everywhere. Quite frankly I can't remember what they're all called, my physics course dates from 9 years ago. :P
But it's a near vacuum, that's true. Just wanted to point that out ;) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Philosophy
Posted: 11 Dec 2003 02:08 PM |
Good debate...let me add a few things into the misx.
1. Science has not disproven god...in fact, up to this point it has almost done the exact opposite. The Big Bang theory is held among many of the high ranking cosmologists as being the most plausible current theory on the creation of the universe, yet as far as I know, none of them have been able to explain what caused the Big Bang to occur. What created that spark of energy? Can something always have just been there, or as we analytical humans always think..everything must have a beginning and an ending. If so, something had to create that first spark....A god perhaps.
2.As far as religions and how they have changed over time...how wars have been fought in their name...and the many different beliefs that have been held throughout history. This has little or nothing to do in a belief in a god. What some have been speaking of above is religious institutions. They are socially constructed, and therefore will change with society as it declines or moves ahead. To say that religions failing, or the harm that they have caused the world does not decrease the possibility of a god, it just shows that mankind is evolving socially, and is changing its thoughts on what a god is.
3. Im not a firm backer of organized religion, though I do understand the many positives it can bring. It brings people together in a community, and it teaches the ethical and moral values that are commonly held within that community. It also gives people hope. If a person derives strength from believing in a god, then more power to them. If another person can do the same without belief, then go ahead. My father told me he was not a religious man until he was dug down deep in the jungles of Vietnam. If his belief in God carried him through that, then I am glad it has not been disproven. |
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