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Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 14 Dec 2003 04:58 PM |
Well I never thought to use this forum with this purpuse but it is here for it aswell and I feel the need of doing it.
Dens and Arathon started a quest that was suposed to tell to xie that he wouldnt be able to build his academy cuz the Asashi monks wouldnt let it happen, the quest seamed well thought and everything seamed to be going well. then dens had to leave and Arathon couldnt finish the quest by himself it seamed it was a quest made by Dens mainly. Some days passed and Dens and Arathon couldnt seam to be online together to finish the quest. During those days I tryed to RP the quest but one of the requisits was to search for grandmaster Le without the use of any possesions though since I have made my part of the quest and it couldnt be continue due to DM affairs I RP to be without the use of my possesions but in fact I used them sometimes, cuz I wanted to play in the days between and survive with a naked char in some areas is impossible though he always Rp to be without possesions for that matter I never used a robe, so he always seamed to be naked. Today Dens finally decided to finish it, and not to mention all the lacks in the quest that were several, I finally reach grandmaster Le and Im told I failed the quest cuz I used possesions. Ok...I see two things in here first if the quest was stoped cuz DM couldnt continue, and the char gets to the point he need a DM to continue what shall he do? Stop playing until DM is available? Or the restrictions of the quest loose efect until the quest is retaken. Second if none of this aply then a DM must plan the quest in a way that it would limite the player time IG, lets say the quest would be retaken in the day after or something like it. If Im not going to be alowed to play for 3, 4 or 5 days I want to be at least warned that the consequences of my IG acts during that time are being used in the quest. In a normal situation Xie would get to dandy like he did and get to the island and finish it without the use of his possesions.
If I will have to wait several days for the conclusion of a quest I expect at least a warning saying dont venture and if you do remember this is still going to be used in the quest. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 14 Dec 2003 06:30 PM |
Vives is a persistant world, and you should expect anything that you do in it to be incorporated into any DM event/quest. Its not something that should require a DM telling you. Just because the 'quest' is done or adjourned, does not mean your character should forget the results of that quest until it starts up again.
To 'rp' that your character isn't using any items while wearing bracers/boots/cloaks etc. that don't show up on the avatar is a poor excuse. That would be like having a Ranger that -only- uses a quarterstaff, pretending that a sword is a quarterstaff so he can benifit from the sword. It seems to me that in this quest, and I only know what you have written here, if you were given a task to find this grandmaster, with out the use of any equipment, then it was put to you as a difficult challenge to face untill you did find him, and by overcoming the challenge, you've proven your characters worth. To hide behind the mechanics of the game engine is not overcoming a challange, and therefor the grandmaster found Xie unworthy of whatever it was you needed of him.
A final thing to keep in mind, is that quests are not, and should not, be guaranteed to have the outcome you expect, or even a outcome that is good. Where is the excitment of danger on a quest if you know its going to all work out in the end? |
~Alosynth
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 14 Dec 2003 06:43 PM |
Vives is a persistant world, and you should expect anything that you do in it to be incorporated into any DM event/quest. Its not something that should require a DM telling you. Just because the 'quest' is done or adjourned, does not mean your character should forget the results of that quest until it starts up again.
Like you say its a persistent world, and by the way you tell this it seams it should all be done in a persistent way ...well then when Xie found Loli and her told him that Dandy could take Xie to the island, and xie went to Dandy to go to the island, he should have answered right away. Then you assume I must stop playing for 3,4 or 5 days until a DM is ready to walk in and play Dandy. Im not hiding behind any game mechanics... I had to find Le without the use of possesions well I did my part of the quest then once again I tell it if Im suposed to be without playing for 4 days with xie in Port Royale docks waiting for Dandy to answer. Well something is wrong. I posted it with the obejective of reflection and to try to find a solution to the situation, it happened with other players and they share my discontentment. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 07:47 AM |
he should have answered right away.
no he shouldnt - a naked man coming and telling him what to do.. which was practicly what you did later on.. including threating his life, will not give you your right answer or he might just ignore you..
eventually as you saw, he tried to get you off his ship after you threathend him - where you kept coming back..
one thing on that part - players shouldnt think that their chars will live no matter what they do..
if you threat someones life you can end up in prison or he can fight you (IG and RL)
and beside you -dont- have DMs 24/7 cuz the DMs got lives of their own.. they cant be IG all the time.
I had to find Le without the use of possesions well I did my part of the quest
no you didnt! you used your items DMs saw you used your items while you shouldnt have done it.
I never used a robe, so he always seamed to be naked.
that's the part where you hide behind game mechanics.. so what if they dont see it..
if you only use your ring or boots - which you Rped that you dont have! - it's actually metagaming.
if your char doesnt have an item - then it doesnt have it period. if your char does have it and doesnt use it , then it is not being used.. going ooc saying : no one see this, I want to use it. is meta, and you broke the idea of yor quest as well..
Today Dens finally decided to finish it
just a note about this one..
I 'decided' to finish this today, without talking to Ara before - therefore i didnt know about shaijin's lack of transistions or the way the NPC talk (or things like that) and tried to finish this was because you kept sending me PMs, and yes this was terribly annoying.. i mean.. allright.. when coming into the IRC or something.. but you just kept doing this.
so from this moment and on, if someone PM me about a quest, and keep doing this over and over i will just ignore him. and I wont goto finish quests with other DMs that might be needed - so it will be finished earlier. if that's what you want then allright i will do that, but dont tell me it lack after it , cuz this wasnt suposed to be one DM quest.
Ok...I see two things in here first if the quest was stoped cuz DM couldnt continue, and the char gets to the point he need a DM to continue
as I said, we got our own lives - we cant be IG 24/7, and sometimes we cant finish a quest on our own, especially cuz it comes out better when someone helps.
what shall he do? Stop playing until DM is available?
yeah... if your char is stuck somewhere and then you cant do anything..
but you could.. I dont see -any- problem with the lack of clothes that will cause you to stop Rping...
this is IG situation, and can be dealt.. and should be dealt IG.
Or the restrictions of the quest loose efect until the quest is retaken.
no they dont.. you took a quest.. finish it.
who said that quest will take you one, two or even ten days to complete?
if Loli and Dias wouldnt go there, it would have taken much longer..
and form the IG point of view.. the grandmaster are -rare- you dont see one every day.. most people never even see them, why should your char meet one and talk to one as he wishes?
If Im not going to be alowed to play for 3, 4 or 5 days I want to be at least warned that the consequences of my IG acts during that time are being used in the quest.
no one didnt tell you not to play!
as I allready said... the situation can and should be RPed.. you can go around with other folks..
In a normal situation Xie would get to dandy like he did and get to the island and finish it without the use of his possesions.
who told you that?
even with your possesions you wont survive on that island..
but you didnt ask for help, and again - you came from the wrong idea that your char cant die cuz there's a DM around..
so allright... I didnt let Dandy kill you - duno why I did it.. i tried to be nice and not to kill you.. or do things that IG would be perma killing..
If I will have to wait several days for the conclusion of a quest I expect at least a warning saying dont venture and if you do remember this is still going to be used in the quest.
again - you cant know that the DM will be available..
and basicly all depends on your char's acts.. if Xie would have asked for help.. he wouldnt die at the first place.. and get back from shaijin island at the time Fri'el was on the way there..
last thing -
but in fact I used them sometimes, cuz I wanted to play in the days between and survive with a naked char in some areas is impossible though
I am terribly sorry that you see 'playing' as going around difficult areas alone and fight monsters.
mainly, my bottom lines -
even if there's a DM that doesnt mean you will survive..
you cant expect that a DM will stop everything he does in his RL and get IG to DM for you,
I mean, I will consider changing some of plans so i can have time to get IG if there's a groupd of players.. if 5 or 10 or so are asking for something (for example - a wedding) but i certinaly wont get IG when i cant cuz one player thinks i should be DMing him - and especially when he keep PMing me.
and one last thing i just recalled..
i think that if no one would have seen you using your items, then you wouldnt tell about this and eventually you will pass the task - even that you didnt.
if Xie wears his boots, it is allright.. it is IG.. but you cant tell that he didnt IG while he did and actually got all the benefits from them. and you should deal with the consequences(sp?) if you cheated on your quest, and you got caught.. you wont pass it.
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 08:44 AM |
Dens, I think you took that a bit more personally than it was intended. I think Ch'ang is just raising an issue that hasn't been discussed before, and that is what guidelines we should work with for our roleplay when R/L matters step in causing an interruption of indefinite length, to what would otherwise be an uninterrupted quest.
Does the character take "time out" and basically go into a between quests sort of mode? And return to whereever he was at the end of the last DMed session and pick up as if nothing had interrupted the session.
Or, does the char remain in that situation until the other people involved are back online and the scenario can be played out?
Or a mixture of both.
All options have problems however. With option one, your char might be unintentionally involved in another plot that ends up conflicting with the one that he's taking time out of. With option two you might be stuck for months on end not being able to play Vives without creating a new char.
I think it depends on the situation. My own character, Cantor Matriel, spent such a period tied to a tree during the Dreamless scenario. In that case, there's bugger all fun in RPing being tied to a tree for two or three weeks until the scenario gets going again, so I used option number one and returned to the tree when the scenario started up again.
Xie had a little more freedom than Cantor did, so, not knowing what was expected of his char, I imagine he went for what seemed a pretty safe mix of both.
It's a real problem we all have to deal with, and I think Ch'ang felt he failed his quest for taking "time out" from it between DMed sessions without being informed that any actions during "time out" would still impact upon his quest.
I think simply saying that the world is persistent and therefore time flows smoothly for everything is ignoring the problem. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 08:55 AM |
I think the quest was intended to teach Xie some humility. I was not at the meeting at the monestary, but I know IG some of the reasons why Xie might need this lesson. His approach to playing the quest exactly typifies the reason he was given it, IMO.
Ice does have another character he could have played, as was pointed out in IRC. The lapse between beginning and end was only, what, 3 days? The only reason for Ice needing Xie to run around in dangerous areas alone for those 3 days would be to gain XP for him, again IMO. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 09:02 AM |
Yes... but that's looking at it with relation to Xie alone. It's a general problem and that's what I was mainly commenting on.
I think Ice THOUGHT he dealt with the situation in a perfectly acceptable manner only to be punnished for it because others felt otherwise. I personally don't think he did anything wrong. So long as he didn't use items ON the quest, I don't think that it should matter that he used them in the time between the portions of the quest. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 09:03 AM |
Let's be honest with ourselves. The world isn't persistant, it can't be. Not everyone can always be on at the same time. This includes DMs, players, and whatnot. ex: Rachel and Hans are still in that tower where they went to after their reception. They're going to remain there for a while, untill we can both be on at the same time.
Now, we look at a problem with bigger ramifications. The DM and the player can't be on at the same time. Does he stand around and wait wherever he left off? Does he treat the quest as if it's on a different plane of existance and waits untill the DM gets back to go back to that plane? Or does he walk away and try again next week, still dealing with the ramifications?
In my opinion, I think it depends on the quest and the people. Mayhaps it was a bad judgement call on Xie's part, mayhaps it wasn't. Who am I to say? However, this brings up an important issue. The problem, in my opinion, is this: What do we do when we don't know what to do?
Now, most people would just make a judgement call, but if we keep treating judgement calls so harshly, then nobody will want to make one. And no DM wants a world of people sucking their thumbs waiting for the DM to force feed them another idea.
Tasra (the Great!) |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 09:10 AM |
| According to Ice in IRC, he'd already gotten negative feedback on how he was playing Xie on another issue. If it were me, I'd have been making an effort to meet the requirements of this quest to the point where there was no excuse for the DMs to complain further about my character. I would not have been saying, "How can I manage to see this situation in such a way as to not have to alter my behavior in any fashion?" |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 09:29 AM |
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm here to have fun, and damnit, fun I will have. I RP my characters the way I RP them. I've gotten negative feedback before, but I don't go around RPing in a way that's "How can I go around and kiss the DMs collective arses?"
That's not necessary. I'm here to have fun. I'm going to RP the way I RP. If they like it, great. If they don't, and I don't see that I'm wrong, tough. If I see that I'm in the wrong, I'll change, as many a logical man would do. But the point of being here is -not- to suck up. The point of being here is to have fun, and fun is what we'll have.
Tasra (the Great!) |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 10:02 AM |
No one told Xie he had to suck up and kiss our asses, I don't know where you'd get such an idea from.
The world is persitent as best as we can make it at the current time. When we stop adding areas, homes for you guys, new static quests, and DM's (Of which we just added TWO more), then you have the right to say we aren't striving towards persistence.
Try a mainstream MMORPG. I'm sure you'll just love the persistence upon those servers.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 10:40 AM |
*Points to the above posts*
That would have been derived from Slinks latest post. |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 11:01 AM |
ok, many replies - i will start from the top.
Pugs -
Xie had a little more freedom than Cantor did, so, not knowing what was expected of his char, I imagine he went for what seemed a pretty safe mix of both.
he had a lot of freedom.. allright, he cant go alone and fight alone. but afaik going in parties, and Rping with other folks are the things vives tries to encourage..
and just for example, Shaz'jen (PF) barely gets out of the cities and if so .. I dont think shaz'jen goes alone. but still afaik PF is having fun..
and I think Ch'ang felt he failed his quest for taking "time out" from it between DMed sessions without being informed that any actions during "time out" would still impact upon his quest.
he didnt 'feel' he failed his quest..
I, as master Le, told him he failed. and I told him he failed cuz he had uses items when the whole idea was that he wont use any.
I think simply saying that the world is persistent and therefore time flows smoothly for everything is ignoring the problem.
first thing - you said a char can either take a time out.. or the player can.
I dont see any problem taking a time out as the char... -but- there's a diffrence between telling someone 'go fetch that and that' then giving him another thing to fetch, between telling someone 'dont touch that and that' and then he got other quest, which he gave himself, that is fighting monster -alone- and survivng.
no problem.. he chose what to do.. but he ruined the first and failed in it.
what Alo meant afaik, is that even if the DM is not around: the quest is still up. maybe he wont be able to talk to NPCs.. but he still got that goal.. with quests that say fetch that and that.. this is very simple.. he can do a lot of things untill fetching the items..
but when someone tell you 'dont use your possesions' that rule applies even when the DM is not IG - the char is trying to find master Le, it can take years IG for someone to find someone else (talking about medivel world here) but untill these years pass.. you cant break the rules and cheat.. well you can - but then you will fail.
next -
slink -
about the reasons - well, the Asashi would know these.. and I am not going to explain them, i dont wanna ruin anyone IG.
The only reason for Ice needing Xie to run around in dangerous areas alone for those 3 days would be to gain XP for him
yep =/
I am not telling anyone to go fetch other chars..
but soloing around, and especially after he understood where master le is, got an ooc reason -
i am not saying this is 'bad'.. you do that to pass time.. or to gain XP (or to get any other treasures os such) - tho it can also be RPed...
but saying he cant play his char cuz he is cant solo.. sry.. this is just BS.. vives idea is to encourage RP.. saying the only thing you can do is soloing and you cant do it right now thus you cant play.. is not what vives is suposed to be.. vives is here for Rping, not for soloing.
you wanna solo goto an action server.
next -
Pugs -
So long as he didn't use items ON the quest
he did.. the quest wasnt over.. even if he had short term goals right now it doesnt mean he finished the long term quest.
again, if someone tell you to pray every morning for 20 days.. then the task is over after 20 days.. when someone tell you to pray every day till you find master le then the task is over when you find master le. you didnt pray one day - you failed the task.
if someone tell you to not use items untill you find master le, and he used before he found.. he failed his quest.
next -
Tasra -
the point is he wasnt on a place when not knowing what to do..
he knew what to do - not to use items till finding master le. and he did.
and i dont think that task was so hard to understand..
so a. you cant tell that he didnt know what to do, and b. yes you are right.. he chose something.. he chose to solo and survive instead of sticking to the rules the asashi set. this thing had it's consequences.. he didnt make it into the asashi.
no one treat it harshly... he didnt obey IG.. and IG he was 'punished'.
next -
Tasra -
now.. i have seen something a bit problematic on your post..
first you said you will RP the way you RP without caring for the negative feedback.. then you said you will change according to wrong things.. sry, but i dont really see how can you ignore and listen to the same thing.
"How can I go around and kiss the DMs collective arses?"
that might be your oppinion.. but i dont think that listening to feedback thus changing according to it is sucking up.. tho again.. your post confused me when you said two completely diffrent things so i probably didnt get it right.
next -
Tasra again -
Slink didnt say anything abotu sucking up ...
she said that if she will get feedback then she will listen to it, and try to change according to it.
next -
that's my part now -
I dont think this thread is about presistancy, nor about the way Ice Rps Xie..
he mentioned a problem - what to do when the DM who started the quest is not around, when he got nothing else to do.
that problem isnt really a problem.. first - you can always to do other stuff (unlese.. well.. tied to a tree =p or stuff like that)
I dont think that if someone cant solo, it means he cant play at all.
what does bother me the most about what Ice wrote, beside the fact that afaict from the text he thinks playing means soloing; is the fact that he said he used items, but this was not IG..
his char did got the bonuses, his char did kill/survive due to them.. so his char had them equiped.. saying it wasnt showed and thus the char didnt have it equiped.. is hiding behind game mechanics as Alo told - and is considered metagaming by my books.
and seems like almost everyone ignore the idea that DMs got private RL time.. and think we should get IG whenever they want.. which for example means, they can PM us repidly.. telling us we need to get Ig... and practicly damanding things...
Tasra, you said you are here to have fun. you are not the only one, other players and DMs are here for that matter as well.. if your ideas of fun.. interupt other players or the DMs.. then you got a problem.. and you probably need to change something.
(and no.. by this i dont mean stop PPing or any other legetimate(god good i need a speller =p) IG acts [legetiate - for example.. no rapes are allowed...])
also - if you interupt someone else's fun IG.. you can say you RPed your char..
but I dont really see any reason for spamming folks with PMs, telling them to get IG and DM for you - this is way diffrent then RPing, and this is not annoying IG.. this annoys in RL.
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 11:24 AM |
Ok the conclusion I take from this.
-You can be almost alone in the server but you still have to stay in the city, and do nothing until the DM gets to you and say come on lets finish it.
-You MUST not ask DMs to finish the quest cuz its anoying, if the quest will go and be for one month then wait one month.
-No one answered my question and something I felt important to be answered for the good of the server, has Im not the only player that had this issue.
-DMing is much more then just have the power yes you most of the times have to give away your fun, (Im was a DM and yes I had fun but most of the times its the responsability and giving fun to the players that comes first), doesnt mean a DM cant have fun though.
-Yes I had a negative feedback I didnt hide it, I went to talk with the DMs and yes I tryed to change it, has the feedback was refering to a way of RP I thought about it and changed it though, I still think that if xie was greedy or not, and left Loli to get some loot it had its results IG Loli isnt happy with Xie then I dont get the reason of the feedback but I acepted it and changed my way of RP, though I again say it Xie is a growing char he isnt perfect otherwise he would be PERFECT like a master/grandmaster should be, and thats a level 20.
-Well Dens what bothers you the most is that I went soloing and used items, I remember you said I had nothing against players soloing when theres nohing else to do in the server I realy understand it. Well based on your statement I supose you have nothing against Xie soloing when he had nothing to do and almost no one was around in the server. And yes if I cant even pass with a level 11 in the goblins without almost die I used one or two items and even that way I died once. So..Im sorry I failed. Like one sid once isnt a DM always right? |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 11:28 AM |
Does the character take "time out" and basically go into a between quests sort of mode? And return to whereever he was at the end of the last DMed session and pick up as if
nothing had interrupted the session.
In almost all situations, I would say no. Especially when a quest, like this one, is about building that particular characters story. To put away the reprecrutions of a quest such as this one and pretend it hasn't happened, or whatever, is certainly not appropriate. |
~Alosynth
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 11:29 AM |
Okay... lets see here... Dens, I've been running around with a musket in my hands for the past hour or so, with nothing more complexe than "See red coat, shoot red coat, reload", so I'm not thinking up to speed, but here goes.
It's not so much of Xie specifically, but rather, it brings up an interesting subject. We have to deal with the fact that there aren't always going to be a DM going on, and yes, Xie was wrong to use items. Also, he was right to be punished IG. That much I'll agree with.
However, it's the broader picture. Sometimes it will be an incident where the person -is- tied to a tree, or is kidnapped, or ate a sleeping apple. This is the perfect opertunity to fix that. This is where we can decide how the judgement calls should be made.
Secondly, I said I'll RP the way I feel like it, if I don't see that I am in the wrong. If I see that I am in the wrong, I'll change accordingly. Lets see here... *Looks back up to Dens' post* True, you misread it. Hrmm, "I have no intent to kiss the DMs collective arses." That was derived from Slink talking about how she would do everything to make sure that the DMs find nothing wrong. I find that to be an abscence of conflict, and conflict is what makes the world go round.
Hrmm... *Looks back up to Dens' post* Thirdly: "I would listen to the feedback and change accordingly" Well, I wouldn't unless I see logic. Not all things will be logical (as proven by many of my posts) so I check through them to find the logic. Occasionally it seems as if the logic of some people is like two grains of wheat in a bushel of chaft. You could look all day long to find it, and if you do, it wasn't worth the look anyways.
Soooo... Lets see here... Oh, and finally, I think that people just happen to take a scolding air about themselves when they talk about other peoples wrongdoings. It almost sounds like "Go away, sinner, for I am without sin". In my own opinion. Oh, and one more thing. Is it REALLY necessary to keep bringing up the tiger incident?
Tasra (the Great!) |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 11:34 AM |
I'll be the first to say that DM's do sometimes make mistakes or err on the side of persistency on some occasions, as we are human. Such problematic situations like being tied to a tree or sleeping apples, when the DM does not fix said events before logging off or letting the story continue without his/her direct intervention is a no-no, and usually only happens due to emergencies or problems beyond our control, we really try not to constrict people so much to a quest that the character is screwed from doing ANYTHING for two-three days or so.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 11:50 AM |
| Then I ask could I continue the quest knowing the get to Le I needed to board in that ship? |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 11:53 AM |
How would that continue persistence?
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 11:57 AM |
| Ok I had to get to Le I found he was in some Island and that Dandy the captain in PR was the one who could tke me there. I went to dandy I tryed to speak with him. No DM was availabble to DM. Cuold I continue the quest? |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 11:59 AM |
-You MUST not ask DMs to finish the quest cuz its anoying, if the quest will go and be for one month then wait one month.
no one told you not to ask..
I was saying not to spam.. not to 'damend' such things, and not to be a pain in the a$ about it.
-DMing is much more then just have the power yes you most of the times have to give away your fun, (Im was a DM and yes I had fun but most of the times its the responsability and giving fun to the players that comes first), doesnt mean a DM cant have fun though.
*points at the above comment*
duno.. i usually play in RL with friends i like to play with... I always have fun no matter what happens IG.
It is fun to play and DM at vives.. that's why I stay here.. that's why I voted for the mod on nwvault.
when someone is being a pain in the a$ (and sorry, but you were) OOC .. then it takes away the fun.
Yes I had a negative feedback I didnt hide it, I went to talk with the DMs and yes I tryed to change it, has the feedback was refering to a way of RP I thought about it and changed it though, I still think that if xie was greedy or not, and left Loli to get some loot it had its results IG Loli isnt happy with Xie then I dont get the reason of the feedback but I acepted it and changed my way of RP, though I again say it Xie is a growing char he isnt perfect otherwise he would be PERFECT like a master/grandmaster should be, and thats a level 20.
there should be no connection between the chars' abilities (lvl grant ones) to the way tha char thinks..
a greedy monk will still be greedy if he reaches lvl 20.. and the lvl 20 monks are not perfect..
no one is.
-Well Dens what bothers you the most is that I went soloing and used items
no, this is not what i said.
what bothers me is that you used your items and then said IG that you didnt, cuz it wasnt shown.
allright.. you lied to master le IG.. that's why you wont get into the asashi order..
but the fact you used it IG and said you didnt OOC - in your first post you said you RPed that you didnt while you actually were using the items - is just trying to be a smart a$ and IMO this is practicly a way of lying - doesnt matter if you hide it behind the game mechanics or not.
So..Im sorry I failed
you shouldnt be sorry you failed.. Xie should be sorry he failed..
you should be sorry you hide behind game mechanics and tell Xie didnt use items while he did.
Like one sid once isnt a DM always right?
no the DM isnt always right..
this is extremely intresting how ppl use these kinda sentences when they are wrong.
next -
Tasra -
i'll start with
Is it REALLY necessary to keep bringing up the tiger incident?
yes, cuz else my sentence could been used by ppl to say 'but this was IG it couldnt hurt ppl OOC' even though it did and might be a sensitive subject.
That was derived from Slink talking about how she would do everything to make sure that the DMs find nothing wrong
I think the idea there, was that if the DMs tell you "you were wrong", you should listen and act accordingly.. most feedback is being talked to other DMs before the player is told it.
and after all.. the DMs get IG and try to make your time here fun.. also for others..
you ruin others' fun.. the DMs will ruin your fun.. and that wont be nice.
And I think that someone that is being frowned upon (not Ice, I am saying that about your reply to Slink) he should act 'nicely' and not attract some more 'bad' feedback..
and that's how life works, when a cop tell you to stop doing something.. and you dont.. probably you will end up in jail..
I hate to take the place of the cop.. but the DMs are suposed to do that as well.
Oh, and finally, I think that people just happen to take a scolding air about themselves when they talk about other peoples wrongdoings. It almost sounds like "Go away, sinner, for I am without sin". In my own opinion.
almost as intresting as saying "Like one sid once isnt a DM always right?" even after you admited you were wrong.
next -
Ice -
you can by ask others about other ways to get to shaijin?
or you can just wait till dandy talk to you.. even if your quest is frozen.. it doesnt mean your can ignore the rules the asashi have set.
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 12:13 PM |
<iYes I had a negative feedback I didnt hide it, I went to talk with the DMs and yes I tryed to change it, has the feedback was refering to a way of RP I thought about it and changed it though, I still think that if xie was greedy or not, and left Loli to get some loot it had its results IG Loli isnt happy with Xie then I dont get the reason of the feedback but I acepted it and changed my way of RP, though I again say it Xie is a growing char he isnt perfect otherwise he would be PERFECT like a master/grandmaster should be, and thats a level 20.
there should be no connection between the chars' abilities (lvl grant ones) to the way tha char thinks..
a greedy monk will still be greedy if he reaches lvl 20.. and the lvl 20 monks are not perfect..
no one is.
Well and here is your mistake (IMO) a level 20 monk is the simble of perfection, the perfect balance between mind and body and a wise person. So yes IMO a greedy monk to get to 20 should change otherwise he would never get to 20, and get the perfectself feat.
So has I see it a monk has to walk a path in that path he learns, and when he gets to 20 he is suposed to be well PERFECT, we are talking about a monk, and that is the goald of a monk has I see it, the search for perfection the search for the truth. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 12:17 PM |
The Perfect Self part of a monk is the monk transcending their original form. This mechanically translates to the monk becoming an Outsider. Not 'perfect', an outsider. Monks do seek to perfect their mind and body, and this perfection is symbolised by themselves changing type from 'mortal' to 'Outsider'.
Besides, Shaz'jen is, techincally, an Outsider, and he's far from perfect :P |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 12:22 PM |
| Well has a I see it a master monk cant be greedy, cant be selfish, etc... Otherwise he wont be a master monk. He will be maybe a great fighter. Thats was what I meant, for example master in shao lin temple are wise persons that are to be folowed for example cuz they are a symbol of a state that is near perfection, no one will ever hit that state of perfection but they keep trying. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Xie's Quest Feedback
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 12:23 PM |
Hello!
I am going to respond to Xie's remarks since it was a quest done with him. Everyone else who tagged into the discussion, I happily refer you to the above posts made by our adorable Fenarisk. The points he makes, that is how vives wants to deal with quests. Also to offer a vivid example to folk, go read the Seeds of Darkness quest. It has been going for months. The structure of that quest is: create an event, let people react, create another event to further the story. And that way it can go on for years! Till a conclusion is reached or breached! So long-term quests should be like that, affect you, continue to affect you till there is a definite end to the situation. DM misfits excepted of course, for as Fen says, we goof up too sometimes! Silly us! And no we don't do it on purpose, we actually can be that ignorant or RL hard-pressed. In such cases, discussion is the keyword, with a heavy emphasis on discussion. With the single purpose of: reaching a compromise to solve the risen predicament.
Seeing how the thread is getting lengthy I'll try to weave some DM guidelines and general remarks through my response. The goal here is being crystal clear on things and not leave unsaid things to fest and come back in a nastier form another time or day.
If things I say were already said by others, blame them, since they were replying while I was typing this elaborate post! I dont like those short posters .
Okay on to the quotes!
Ok the conclusion I take from this.
-You can be almost alone in the server but you still have to stay in the city, and do nothing until the DM gets to you and say come on lets finish it.
No! That depends entirely on the given situation! If you were left someplace to find a sacred treasure, or an evil god trapped you in a dungeon with puzzles (but the DM forgot to lock the exit doors or whatever) persistency means you are there for the reason you are there and should not leave before that reason is a: no longer applying to your situation, or b: something more urgent comes up to make you decide to cast aside your reason for being a place and getting the hell out of there to attend a more urgent matter! Icly it means you only leave or stay based on the IC given situation.
-You MUST not ask DMs to finish the quest cuz its anoying, if the quest will go and be for one month then wait one month.
No! DM's sometimes screw up, or their ISP does, forcing a discon where they really cant have one! Technical difficulties can be a problem or RL can be a pain. Contacting the DM's with: what next, is prett common logic in such a situation and any kind caring wonderfully cool DM would respond to that, unless their problems keep them from connecting for a month. Even then there are other DM's who might rise to the call. And that of course can take a few days, annoying. In the end we need to find a Rp way out of the Rp situation. We are all mature folk or pretend to be, so a mature discussion should get around all risen problems. Understanding and consideration are the keywords here.
-No one answered my question and something I felt important to be answered for the good of the server, has Im not the only player that had this issue.
These statements, referring to 'other people' are terribly unhelpful and not contributing at all . Seriously if you want to involve other people, ask their permission and ask them to speak up or ask them if you may speak and mention their names. After all, we have not yet employed a mind-reader (although I hear Ara is taking a course soon) and so can not either respond or deal with things not brough to our attention!
-DMing is much more then just have the power yes you most of the times have to give away your fun, (Im was a DM and yes I had fun but most of the times its the responsability and giving fun to the players that comes first), doesnt mean a DM cant have fun though.
Offering players the means through a variety of tools and things available to a DM is another form of fun alright. It is different from playing your own char, as a DM you are tied to the plot, not one player's perspective. It can be overwhelming sometimes, we learn more everyday, making good use of that newly acquired experience to improve DM methods. We do not employ DM's who are in it for the power, vives selects them on the capability to create inspiring stories and being able to enjoy themselves through that.
-Yes I had a negative feedback I didnt hide it, I went to talk with the DMs and yes I tryed to change it, has the feedback was refering to a way of RP I thought about it and changed it though, I still think that if xie was greedy or not, and left Loli to get some loot it had its results IG Loli isnt happy with Xie then I dont get the reason of the feedback but I acepted it and changed my way of RP, though I again say it Xie is a growing char he isnt perfect otherwise he would be PERFECT like a master/grandmaster should be, and thats a level 20.
Not sure if I understand your point, but here goes nothing! No guts no glory, right? If Loli dislikes you IG, she must dislike you for IG reasons. And that appears the case, so thats cool. Being friendly to her once won't immediately change that, since it all depends how forgiving our dwarf maiden is. And if she is anything like Bregodim, you'll be spending a few more years to make up. Not sure what feedback you are referring to and I won't guess since that is not constructive. As for you not having a perfect char, no one has, on the premise that the definition of 'perfect' is not a static one. So yeah chars learn from their experiences IG hopefully and it might affect their behavior IG. The only thing the staff tries to keep an eye on is powerplay, like people picking levels in a class for a game mechanic benefit and not implement that choice in their Rp. And of course certain classes have their own restriction when it comes to type of behavior. Preferably eventually we will hand out actively alignment points. So if someone lawful is raiding poor families, that lawful state wont last very long! Same with a supposed champion of good doing overly obvious evil nasty things, won't stay 'good'! I think most of us can think to what type of behavior a monk would be restricted to. My personal view is a monk is only progressing by overcoming challenges and only earning new talents/powers by showing an increasing amount of responsability, awareness of his codes of conduct and an increasing amount of insight. And this related to his 'alignment' of evil, neutral, good for some subtle altering of prementioned aspects.
*takes a breath*
-Well Dens what bothers you the most is that I went soloing and used items, I remember you said I had nothing against players soloing when theres nohing else to do in the server I realy understand it. Well based on your statement I supose you have nothing against Xie soloing when he had nothing to do and almost no one was around in the server. And yes if I cant even pass with a level 11 in the goblins without almost die I used one or two items and even that way I died once. So..Im sorry I failed. Like one sid once isnt a DM always right?
I might misunderstood the general point of this statement, so if I did forgive me. You were offered a challenge IG, by an IG char, who gave you IG restrictions. It showed you did not stick to the given requirements/restrictions, which naturally influenced the eventual outcome of the quest. The one giving it to you wasn't pleased with the result. The degree of difficulty of a quest should have nothing to do with going against IG requirements. If you are asked to cross a long wobbly bridge on your hands and are offered a sweet reward for doing so... the walking on the hands is the requirement. And you wont get the sweet reward then if halfway you hop to your feet and cross the rest of the bridge walking, claiming: it was too hard, I was almost falling. That's part of the challenge! Win some loose some. And you can only win by playing by the rules of the given challenge.
To conclude, DM's always being right? No. Not every DM has the same ideas. The only one who is always right is the vives staff. The staff only makes decisions after an open discussion with members of that staff, consequently they are the folk best informed about policies and ongoing non-public developments. So even DM's win some, loose some in those discussions when we try to agree on points of interest/issues.
Oh and I am hoping this thread ends now. It is getting lengthy. If folk are so swift to reply, it might be better to get together in IRC and talk it through, that is if people are still left with questions/remarks.
Cheers,
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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