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Forums  > General  > WishList  > Animal Empathy     Display using: Flat View Threaded View   Oldest to newest Newest to oldest Previous Thread :: Next Thread   Author  Thread: Animal Empathy  Hades Joined: 30 Sep 2003 Total Posts: 239 Send PM   Animal Empathy Posted: 02 Dec 2003 09:22 PM Seems my last post was killed by the forum monster so i'll repeat myself. I would realy like to see animal empathy award some xp. Might also be a good idea to have disarm trap give some xp aswell. Some of us have high skill usage modifiers at the expense of others. mannaka no ana ni sounyuu awari kana  Quietus Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Total Posts: 803 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 02 Dec 2003 09:27 PM Seems my last post was killed by the forum monster so i'll repeat myself. I would realy like to see animal empathy award some xp. Might also be a good idea to have disarm trap give some xp aswell. Some of us have high skill usage modifiers at the expense of others. Animal empathy would be an easy one to add in, whereas disarm traps is a bit harder (er, a lot more work). The problem with things like open locks and disarm traps is that someone has to go to every since trap or door that already exists in the mod and apply a script. -Q  Sion www.realultimatepower.net Joined: 11 Apr 2003 Total Posts: 64 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 02:04 AM Thanks for volunteering Quietus! With a passion, Sion *Is _-=SO=-_ laughing to himslef* When in doubt, mumble. When in trouble, delegate.  Tasra www.bgmod.com Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Total Posts: 1364 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 02:27 AM Don't worry Q, we'll still love you. *Mumbles* As long as you keep working :P Just kidding! :P *Cracks a whip*  Ruldain Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Total Posts: 715 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 04:00 AM I like to add some things... Why do I not get xp for a succesful discipline check, a succesful taunt, a succesful identify of an item with lore, a succesful hide attempt, a succesful search, a succesful spot, a succesful concentration check, bards using their song, fighters using their knockdown, monks using their stunning fist? Etc. etc. Xp for some skills and feats is nice, but should we not stop somewhere? This way you will never take vives away from what makes NWN a crappy game, the game mechanics. If everything still has to relate to checks and the amount of xp you get for using a skill which is already 'unique' to your character, I think we are missing the Rp point there. I really do not see the use of giving xp to use of Animal Empathy. This is again rewarding players using a skill, not necessarily Rp. Rul Why can't I PM myself? Don't iron out the Irony.  Váei Joined: 29 Nov 2003 Total Posts: 12 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 04:54 AM To pamper, or not to pamper - that is the question ^.~ (Awww. I feel like a sucker writing that "jibing" at Q ^.^ ) (Eeep. Please, not one of those perpetual "skill decrease" icon. They're unsightly, and that's a large price for a small benefit of the selected player population within minute number of druid/ranger players.) ~Váei Genius is the perception of the obvious which nobody else sees.  Phoenix Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Total Posts: 942 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 05:08 AM My vote is also no on this. The reason: if this gets implemented, other people will start asking xp for their skills and feats just like Ruldain stated and there will be no end to it. Saying that you invested skill points in it is a moot point. We all invest skill points in something we hope will be useful. I maximised three skills: concentration, lore and spellcraft. Why would I further maximise the last two when I already can identify everything in the game and recognise every single spell cast? Hmmm, because he wants to be good in it, or even the best? I don't want xp for identifying an item. I've used my lore once in a DM quest otherwise. What good is spellcraft for, why would I invest in that? It only shows what spells someone else cast. I might as well have used them on spot or something else. My point is that skills shouldn't really get xp, they are rewarding in itself. Remove traps? You get through areas where others die, you get into chests. Animal empathy: same thing, you get through areas where others get attacked. So it all has it's own merrits and values. But these are just my 2 cp. Phoenix Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time. [Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven.  Barnas Joined: 17 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 3322 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 06:33 AM I'd also say no, for pretty much the same reasons as Phoenix. Fri'el's persuade is hitting checks to be using an "epic" usage of bluff or diplomacy. Yippee!. I can tell you now, I use that skill about once in oh... a RL month? And there'd be no point putting XP in for rolling persuade. So why add it in for even more skills? Likewise, with animal empathy, there's no point putting in the XP. The skill does get used more often, yes, but why give people XP for it? The bonus is in having a little animal following you around. -Barnas  Pugs Joined: 14 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 276 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 06:36 AM Well.. actually, if we're going to be consistent we probably SHOULD give xp for the use of all skills. It's not really a valid option due to the amount of work involved in making this work but I think idealistically it's something we'd want. A char with a heavy investment in skills is basically saying that their char IS a skill based char. Just as a mage or cleric is a spell-based char. Spell-oriented chars get xp for every spell they cast, so idealistically a skill-oriented char should get xp for the use of any of their skills. Cantor Matriel - "How much?"  Phoenix Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Total Posts: 942 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 08:05 AM The spell xp 'problem' has been taken care off. And I like it the way it is now. Wizards and clerics buff up before combat but only get xp for the first spell they cast and then nothing for another minute RL. Trust me, I have it all cast in less than a minute. And no, I'm not going to stand next to an enemy to gain 4 xp in order to cast stoneskin. I really don't see why all skills should get xp. Open lock was given to thieves probably to compensate for reduced combat xp (I'm merely guessing here). Remember people there is NO equality in the classes. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages. A wizard is powerful at the higher levels, but hard to play (or should I say keep alive) at the lower ones. Thus the need to form parties. A party of only fighters will lack healing and the necessary skills to open locks and pick traps. Why do you play a certain character and class? Because (at least I really hope so) you have fun playing that class and not because it will net you the largest amount of xp. Phoenix Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time. [Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven.  Ruldain Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Total Posts: 715 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 08:29 AM Phoenix raises a very valid point. The difference between classes. Each class is unique and therefore requires a different 'gameplay' approach if you will. Easiest to distinguish between a fighter and a wizard, it is evident both classes have another way to dispatch enemies. If we start giving xp for the use of some skills, skills which are complimentary to some classes and yet not always unique for one class, we are adding complicating factors to this precarious balance of the classes thing. More xp sources, in essence means more things to bear in mind if you want each class to have a chance to play out their class and through Roleplay get to higher levels. Since you have to relate all added sources to the sources already implemented, and make a rough estimate of what would be 'fair' to give for amount of xp from the perspective of keeping things somewhat in balance. These estimations... are tough. I played a thief once, and on level 3 could get huge amounts of xp by picking a lock. Add to that the amount of xp I got for killing a monster, and comparing that to the amount of xp a fighter got for that monster and then add to that the amount of time the fighter needed to get the amount of xp I got for the lockpicking... showed the fighter had the rougher deal. BUT, in the long run, the lockpicking xp expires eventually. So the rogue is left with just the combat xp, and there the little fighter rapidly decreased the distance between himself and the rogue in levels... God knows when precisely a fighter would catch up with the rogue, let alone you start to keep into account the way folk distribute their skill points. So personally, to avoid a lot of frustration in the long run, I am advocating a simple approach here. As simple as possible. Which means not adding more xp sources which rely heavily on the amount of points someone put in a certain skill. The reason is selfish, since it will save the staff a lot of extra work. Which means more time for other stuff, and also more time to start awarding people xp for their Roleplay instead of clicking on a button to activate a skill. In other words placing the human interaction above the game mechanical generated action. Rul Why can't I PM myself? Don't iron out the Irony.  Pugs Joined: 14 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 276 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 08:34 AM Well if that's the attitude we take then why don't we scrap the entire Vives xp system and use the one NWN provided? No, the classes are not balanced in NWN or Vives. But as I understand it that's not what we're discussing here. We're discussing what actions should have xp associated with them and which shouldn't. Theoretically, I think that skills should have experience associated with them. In my opinion skill-use is equivalent to spell-use. Practically, I think there are more important things our builders could be spending time on. (EDIT: This was actually posted in reply to Phoenix's post, though my point applies to some aspects of Rul's also.) Cantor Matriel - "How much?"  Elvin Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Total Posts: 14 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 09:18 AM Hello people, I hope I will be quick on this one :). I am FOR awarding players when using animal empathy (rewards shouldn't be high ---- up to 4 XP) BUT!!!!.... as a counterpart of awarding player for using that skill, I would like to see also a PENALTY when skill fails (-(xp_awarded*5)......so that would mean -20xp if skill fails) and (or) whenever a player with animal emphaty greater then 5 (just guessing here), kills animal, the same amount the penalty would apply to a player. Therefore exploiting xp could be reduced. As I see it the same principal (gaining xp for skill-loosing xp when failing skill checks) could be applied also to other skills. One more thing.... IF upper suggestion would be implemented, I would also like to see lower xp rewards for killing monsters (up to 10x lower). Let me elaborate. XP gained by killing monsters would be transfered to xp gaining by using skills. What I have written above is only a quick draft of what I have came up to so details are to be worked in if the ideas are to be implimented. with regards, Elvin  para Joined: 23 Oct 2003 Total Posts: 116 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 10:28 AM I think this is really a resources issue. Whilst I'm in favour of as many sources of xp as possible, the amount of work to accomplish adding xp for several skills may not be feasible. Also, arguably there is no reason why failing a skill check wouldn't grant experience (let alone lose you any). 'Next time I must remember to keep eye-contact with that ancient dire bear when its chewing my arm off!' I understand your looking at it from a balance point of view, but I think it would end up with people just not bothering to taking the risk of losing their xp in some cases. On the subject of balance adding xp to more skills would also have a knock on effect possibly unbalancing the fine xp system we have currently. Eerel Swiftfoot Self proclaimed fasterest little person in da land Eerel's Story: http://vives.dyndns.org/vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=49386  Fenarisk Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Total Posts: 823 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 11:23 AM While this is a rather neat idea and could be implemented as a one shot XP use (Like ##XP for every kind of animal...you won't get XP twice for animal empathy on a rat, or a deer, though dire rat would be a new XP gain). However, I'd initially say no to this idea due to the fact that Druid's can already gain a TON of exp in a way common in many MMORPG's, but not really stumbled upon here in NWN or most PW's that I have seen at least, or at least one that functions like Vives does. And no, I'm not giving away this secret :P. ~Fenarisk  Alosynth Joined: 11 Apr 2003 Total Posts: 1324 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 11:48 AM I would have to agree with Rul et al. The current XP sources available for each class seem to be fairly balanced, and any additional sources must be looked at with extreme caution, lest they unbalance it. I am also loath to adding any more scripted sources of XP to keep Vives true to the original intent of a low XP world. Rest assured, however, that you will occaisionally get XP rewards for using your skills for the enhancement of Role Play. Its just not something that is, or should be scripted. ~Alosynth  Dens Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Total Posts: 1221 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 12:41 PM sry - too tired to read everything =p I dont think all skills should have xp, -but- as I see it now, it is pretty unfair - cuz rouges get a lot of their xp from skills while other chars dont get any for such - while they got 100% ability xp midifier, when the points could go to other modifiers that they actually use. I think the main thing that need to be rewarded is the special class given ability - monks got stunning fist.. or quivering palm.. barbarians got rage - clerics got turn undead .. etc etc.. (and not for skills - that every class can take) now, when it seems like the spells xp was taken care of - I think we can have the skills xp scripted.. -BUT- I also think this should be somewhere at the bottom of the list.. cuz we got much more things need to be done - that are more importent. also as said, skills used for 'improving' the role play should be rewarded. bottom line - can be nice to have scripted xp for skills, but it isn't importent as the other things on the todo list. Dens You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p  Hades Joined: 30 Sep 2003 Total Posts: 239 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 05:19 PM If you guys dont want to give xp for any skills then you need to lower the skill modifier and raise the combat xp modifier. We have this huge modifier for skills when there are none but a relativly low combat xp modifier. My druid has a combat modifier of 50% and a Skill modifier of 100%. Does anyone besides me see the problem here? mannaka no ana ni sounyuu awari kana  Barnas Joined: 17 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 3322 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 05:29 PM .............why? You get enough XP from combat. 50% is more than a cleric (35, IIRC). You don't need a whole load from skills, I don't think. -Barnas  Sug 80flavours.com Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Total Posts: 448 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 03 Dec 2003 05:45 PM I don't see a problem..? You just gain XP slower when fighting... "ehehehehe,.." Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo.  Ruldain Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Total Posts: 715 Send PM   Re: Animal Empathy Posted: 04 Dec 2003 05:40 AM If you don't get xp for your skills you do not need the skill modifier. So we do not have to change it to begin with. There will be a meeting about xp in general and specific soon, which will end all your worries and concerns. Though I shall repeat myself endlessly, worry more about Rp and enjoyment and less about the technical side of the game. Why can't I PM myself? Don't iron out the Irony. Previous Thread :: Next Thread  Page 1 of 1   Forums  > General  > WishList  > Animal Empathy