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Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 09:56 AM |
A lot of the players have taken up one or more crafts, be it mining and weaponsmithing, tailoring or enchanting. As most of you know the crafting system rewards have changed some time ago. In the 'old' days one got experience from crafting itself and this experience also accounted towards getting better in said craft. In retrospect this was way too powerful, turning some into crafting machines. But enough said about the past.
As it is now when you craft you gain two sorts of experience: the crafting experience which helps you get better in your craft (a very logical thing IMHO, after all practice makes perfect) and something called 'adventuring xp'. When I started crafting a while ago I never even noticed that there were two separate kinds of experience. But a discussion in irc leads to the following: why should one get adventuring experience from crafting? The amounts are minimal but are still there. As someone I shall not name here aptly put in irc: you don't get crafting experience from adventuring after all. Very true.
Let me ask you this, why does one craft? To gain experienxe ? This borders on metagaming in many cases. The reason my character crafts is for one thing only: the products. Getting a potion, a sword with some nice properties or a nice set of leather armour that has some nifty abilities (I'm not talking AC +34, protection from all elements), etc. is the reward for your crafting. So as a player I don't see the necessity for the adventuring experience while crafting.
I'd like to hear what other crafters have to say on this subject. PLease post your constructive comments in here. (DMs are also welcome ;). |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 10:12 AM |
I entirely agree with the ideas put forward by Phoenix.
From a DM perspective I can explain a little why things are as they are now. The idea behind crafting was to create another source to gather xp. As some felt, since gaining xp was supposedly to be hard ;), handing out adventuring xp for crafting efforts would help the players a little bit.
But perhaps it is time to revise that thought? Personally I feel the need has waned to add adventuring xp to crafting xp. Rather I see the DM's reward xp to the players who roleplay their crafting ventures, teaming up with others and turn it into a roleplay event. Granted, this will change a consistent flow of xp in a somewhat less consistent flow of xp, but I think the change in reason behind it is worth that 'sacrifice'.
I do not have much else to add to Phoenix's explanation.
Cheers,
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 10:54 AM |
Well, the adventuring XP is quite small now compared to what it used to be, for crafting. It is -not- what it listed in your percentages when you log on. If EP is supposed to represent knowledge gained in any activity, then crafting should also contribute. Finding a new area gives EP. In what way does that improve Loli's sword-swing or Dias's casting? But forging swords might make Loli more aware of the proper use of them, and certainly should make her arm stronger. The classes already have different proportions of "full reward" for the different activities, all except crafting which is pinned at one low value for everyone.
Not everyone can craft to the same level in any one craft, in case you haven't noticed. For instance, Loli can only tailor to level 10, but others can tailor to level 15.
And finally, once you have learned to do a thing 100%, there is no longer any more EP. This is no different from combat or spell-casting, in that it diminishes with usage.
There has been some discussion about limiting which crafts various classes can carry out. My proposal was based on the 2nd Ed PH, it is not differentiated by the greater variety of classes now available. In it's initial form, it was as follows:
Smithing (both types) limited to Fighter types
Woodworking limited to Fighter types
Gem-cutting limited to Mage and Rogue types
Alchemy limited to Mage and Cleric types
Enchanting limited to Mage and Cleric types
All other crafts available to everyone assuming that they have the ability to handle the tools.
PS: you don't ever get EP for chopping trees, mining ore, digging clay or sand, or chiseling out minerals. This is relevant to a comment made by someone in IRC.
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Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 10:57 AM |
I look at it like this: a player gains no exp for mining, chopping wood, digging sand, etc. yet not all players can do these things. also, a player has to adventure out in the wild to find ores, ingredients, etc. I just take it as a way of rewarding players who have the skills to mine, chop, etc. and the adventure of obtaining said items...granted some of the ingredients are easier to find than others, however, some are quite difficult to reach, and that is why I like to see an adventuring reward as well as crafting.
Although I like your Point Rul, in that if DM's decide to take the adventuring exp out of crafting then maybe they will begin rewarding teamwork when players form parties and help each other mine/gather their ingredients to colaborate on a product such as jewelry, enchanted weapons; where you need a smith, tinkerer, alchemist, and enchanter.
Either way I will still enjoy it, but for now, I think crafting is fine just the way it is. |
"PLEASE!!! Bury me with it!" |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 12:31 PM |
I wouldn't say limiting crafting by class is a good idea. It's just....wrong....
Why can't a cleric learn to smith?
Why can't a rogue learn alchemy?
Just doesn't make any sense, beyond forcing a player's hand in choosing their PCs trade.
-Barnas |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 12:36 PM |
Well, it was counter to someone else's proposal that all characters be only allowed 1.5 crafts.
Anyway, it would "promote RP". |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 12:39 PM |
How?
Not everyone can get good at every craft, unless you're Palfrey, who was an exception...
Limiting crafts is a stupid, stupid idea. People form little crafting cabals as it is. Why change it?
-Barnas |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 01:42 PM |
| I think that crafting should be encouraged in every way possible. If this means giving adventuring xp, then so be it. If Vives wants to have a thriving multi-layered economy then as many people as possible should be crafting and being rewarded (both through xp and other means) for it. |
Eerel Swiftfoot
Self proclaimed fasterest little person in da land
Eerel's Story:
http://vives.dyndns.org/vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=49386 |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 03:31 PM |
| My problem with crafting is that it is more highly rewarded than roleplaying. Which of the two would you rather encourage? |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 03:42 PM |
As stated Phoenix Flameheart, this has changed A LOT. There's now both adventuring xp and craft xp. The latter you get to be better at what you do. It does NOT add to your own character experience. The adventure xp is about 10% (correct me if I'm wrong) from what you get as craft xp.
In my opinion, the adventure xp isn't really needed since the items you craft are a reward in itself. But I'm repeating myself here. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 04:43 PM |
I think that crafting should be encouraged in every way possible. If this means giving adventuring xp, then so be it. If Vives wants to have a thriving multi-layered economy then as many people as possible should be crafting and being rewarded (both through xp and other means) for it.
totally agree here...
I think the crafting system that is in place now seems to work just fine. I dont see how giving a little adv exp for crafting items can hurt roleplay... I know Gregor would have to make a boatload of flasks or even rings [which I cannot make alone, hence the need for roleplay] for that matter for me to look at crafting as a way to get my character to the next level [as if that's what I was crafting for in the first place...] So to say that all adv exp should be wiped out of the crafting system is a bit harsh, Id think there would be many other aspects of the MOD that the builders and code writers would rather be concentrating their efforts on rather than tweaking a miniscule part of a system that is already in place and seems to this guy to be working very smoothly.
my .02 |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 04:47 PM |
hmmm..seems to me like we had a post like this a few months ago where someone complained that jewelry crafting was too easy...then came the 'trade blockade' on oils...now making a ring takes forever...will history repeat itself yet again? what next?...are we going to complain until the DMs take away the crafting tables and forges, forcing us to make our own by collecting wood and stone?
It also seems to be that only higher level players are the ones who complain about this or that with exp. or one craft is easier than another...I certainly don't see any low levels posting that a DM take away adventuring exp. for crafting....just remember to put yourself in a level one's shoes again....you were there, remember? and you most certainly weren't complaing about their being too much adv. exp. then.
I think the writers and DMs have great balance on the way crafting is set up and rewarded...I sure hope a few people's complaints/suggestionis don't buck the system for everone once again. |
"PLEASE!!! Bury me with it!" |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 06:23 PM |
I think you got me wrong here. This wasn't a complaint and seondly this is nothing like the blockade on oils. Making a ring takes forever ? We're three people working together and it goes smoothly.
What was suggested in my first post was something both players and DMs alike chatted about in the irc channel. Is it going to happen? No, I posted this only here to hear YOUR comments. This isn't on the wishlist it's merely a request for response. No need to feel attacked or threatened whatsoever :) |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 07:42 PM |
Hello people,
I see crafting as a "must" for my character since he is ranger and as such he ought to make not only bows but also other necessary items that would enable him ro survive in the wilderness.
As it goes for Xp rewarded, I wouldn't mind if there wasn't any (adventuring) XP for it at all.
On crafting limitation:
In my opinion Ranger ought to know how to do lethers, wood and , amazingly :), alchemy :)
(since he is familliar with the nature I don't see why he couldn't make some of the potions from natural resources)
So as conclusion, I wouldn't opose limiting crafting to specific classes, but those that would chose a craft that isn't initialy "their own craft" (f.i Ranger doing gems or making bladed weapons-smelting, mining etc), I would penalize (lower their chance to suceed)
with regards,
Elvin
P.S.
I hate to see that my elven character has to mine and to tinker, but since there aren't enough players around to do it <---here I think dwarfs and rouges that would choose it as their proffesiom, I think I will have to stick with it for a while longer. (remark.....arrowheads |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 24 Nov 2003 09:37 PM |
I don't know what a Ranger CAN craft, but I agree with the basis of Elvin's thoughts that they should be able to craft in quite a few different crafting proffesions, as per their character class/type. They kinda get the shaft as it is going from PnP to NWN (I miss a useful wilderness lore .)
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 25 Nov 2003 03:55 AM |
Again a clarification: in no way was my first post intended to limit certain crafts to certain classes. This is all in my humble opinion, but I tink that ANYONE can do ANYTHING as long as they set their mind to it. Should a mage with str 9 be dissallowed to smith? I don't see why he should. Why would he? Because smithing doesn't belong to magecraft? That's kind of a narrow point of view. Ok he won't be able to carry tons (figure of speech) of ore, but there are ways around that (hire an oxe, ask friends, etc...).
Also lets not turn this debate into which class got the shaft in NWN. I've read too many similar threads on ENWorld regarding pnp and they just keep returning (those and the ever famous 'I think this class is better than that because...').
My question here was pretty simple and straigthforward I think: is adventuring xp necessary for crafting (the other way around certainly isn't possible). I know that the amounts you receive now are minimal, maybe a low level character might gain a level from crafting, but that's a maybe. To use an example: my character will NEVER raise a level from crafting. Perhaps if he took up all the crafting and tried to become the best of the best, I might get close (but t would be difficult as at the moment some resources are simply not there, while others are impossible to get). What I do know is that even if I did nothing but crafting it would take me MONTHS to raise to the next level (granted the way I see it now it will also take me months, for the only creatures that get slain are kobolds and goblins now and then; yup ladies and gentlemen Dias is NOT a thrillseeker). The fact is that now I'd probably get more experience from casting (as Dias works together with friends he likes to protect them, as well as himself; ok, he borders on paranoid; what a trip to hell can't do eh...), but according to what I read this will soon get addressed as well. What it boils down to is this: no roleplay rewards -> no more leveling. Do I only roleplay when I think a DM is watching: well I don't think so, but I'll leave that one to the DMs. Do I want xp for everything I do. Nope. Crafting least of all. I assure you that getting some of the items you've long been working towards is more than enough reward for me.
Oh and something that I suddenly seem to remember from yesterday's irc chat: someone stated that mages and clerics using buff spells were abusing the system. To those who don't know what buff spells are: bull's strength to enhance strength, cat's grace to enhance your agility, etc. You get the picture. It was and still is my personal opinion that this is NOT the case (again I invite everyone to type his remarks after this post), for various reasons. Many people carry stat enhancing equipment (going from +1 to +3, but this is a technicality), thus magically enhancing their abilities. Should they remove those before crafting? I think not. Furthermore one has to consider this: when you use magic enhancements your crafting chances go up, reducing the craft xp you gain considerably. So it is a trade off: you get better chances of making something, but it takes you a lot longer to actually gain a new crafting level. E.g. I have 80% chance to make enchanting potions without boosts. However some ingredients are scarce and not wanting to botch many potions (aah yes the days of constantly rolling 1s and 2s) Dias enhances himself resulting in this: this recipe is trivial for you, which means that he gets NO xp to further his craft, but he will have the oils. This is also mainly due because some crafts are very hard to progress in, due to lack of components (alchemy is one for instance). I'm sure these will be addressed in the future, but in the meanwhile, I prefer to succeed making oils rather than getting xp and progressing in the craft. As said it is a trade-off. Is it cheating or exploiting? Not to me, then again I don't hold the world's wisdom so I might be wrong.
OK, it seems I once more typed a rather verbose post. In short two things: is adventuring xp necessary for crafting and is the use of magic or items to boost your abilities and enhance your rate of success a cheat or not? |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 25 Nov 2003 05:05 AM |
I know Gregor would have to make a boatload of flasks or even rings [which I cannot make alone, hence the need for roleplay] for that matter for me to look at crafting as a way to get my character to the next level [as if that's what I was crafting for in the first place...]
Well there is the point ;). Since you will never gain a level with it, unless you craft for a day on end, what is the use of that added bonus of adventuring xp? The crafting does not really relate to your adventuring, let alone the increase in abilities you get if you do earn a new level.
As to what Gene mentioned in his first post, getting no xp for harvesting the stuff, that is true. But the difficulties you find whilst travelling to the location of the resources you need, as in monsters, killing them goes to your adventure xp total. The actual mining or resource acquiring is still a part of the crafting process, whereas the getting to the location, earning exploration xp and combat xp, is part of the adventuring process. Only way to add xp to harvesting of resources, IMHO, would be to make it so you can get better in acquiring certain stuff by repetitive attempts. Which might be something for the future .
So to say that all adv exp should be wiped out of the crafting system is a bit harsh, Id think there would be many other aspects of the MOD that the builders and code writers would rather be concentrating their efforts on rather than tweaking a miniscule part of a system that is already in place and seems to this guy to be working very smoothly.
my .02
Well that's the thing, all it takes for the builder/coder guy is to adjust one teensy little thing. A minute work at most. So the amount of work is not an issue here. So again I want to stress the sensibility of the offered perspective. Does it make sense to get two sort of xp? For through crafting you do get better in the art AND you acquire items which you can use for your benefit OR earn cash. So it is already really a great profit. A profit which will only increase after the overhaul of the crafting system and all the new recipies which will be added.
Then on the spell thing and class restricted crafts. By making the success rate of a craft attempt relate to one's stats you do make a sort of selection. Fighters benefit most from their strength, whereas a wizard has more int, a cleric wisdom, and a thief is a jack of all trades most of the time. Because of these differences each class is better suited than another class for certain crafts.
Personally I do not perceive the use of spells to boost one's stats for crafting as cheating. Since the higher your stat, the lower the craft xp again. So for your learning curve it makes no difference. You only have a greater chance to acquire an item at that point. Also magic-users simply have those spells. It makes sense for them to use them, right? Just as much as other classes can use potions or even scrolls. For if you would go wood chopping, wouldn't you try to increase your strength in every way possible?
But again that is my personal view.
Cheers,
Ruldain |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 25 Nov 2003 11:32 AM |
Well, I'll restate my one point. Why does learning a craft add anything -less- to one's knowledge of the world than discovering a new cave? In fact, practicing alchemy should add to Dias's knowledge of the world. Isn't that part of his character profile?
Maybe all classes can do every craft, but adventure points are only awarded for crafts relevant to the class.
So Dias can smith, make bows, tan skins, and blow glass, but only gets adventure EP for enchanting and making potions. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 25 Nov 2003 12:18 PM |
So Dias can smith, make bows, tan skins, and blow glass, but only gets adventure EP for enchanting and making potions.
I like this idea.
-Barnas |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 25 Nov 2003 12:26 PM |
Well, that makes sense. Which doesn't make sense. I'm not supposed to agree with Slink! AHHHHHHH!!! (J/K)
Perhaps limit how many levels one can get in crafting? Like, ex. 10 crafting levels? So a person could be a 4 smelter, 3 bowyer, and 3 smith? (But, like, maybe 40 levels or something?)
I don't know how many crafts there -are- exactly, but one person being awesome at everything... it just rubs me the wrong way, ya know?
I suggest the level limit thingy for the sake of the poor scripters locked up in their rooms all day long working on things -we- want, and I figure this would be a smidgen easier to script.
Tasra (the Great!) |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 25 Nov 2003 12:44 PM |
The maximum level possible in each craft is already variable by some method, possibly attributes.
If we did it the way I suggested above, the crafts for which each class gets adventure points would have to be evened out so that one class didn't get screwed. For instance, rogues should probably get tinkering added to gem-crafting. That's how you make traps, and rogues are the only people who really care about making traps other than for financial gain. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 25 Nov 2003 02:13 PM |
Hello people,
Slink said:
... rogues are the only people who really care about making traps other than for financial gain.
I beg to differ.....My ranger character care for them traps also since he is a trapper. :)
so politically correct statement would be:
.... rogues AND ELVIN'S CHARACTER WHOS IS A TRAPPER RANGER are the only people who really care about making traps other than for financial gain.
*walks away smiling, knowing that he has made something good for the world today*
with regards,
Elvin |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 25 Nov 2003 02:17 PM |
What, you kill animals for their skins, with rogue traps?
Is there anything left? Dias tried killing a crag cat with a fireball, and it completely destroyed it. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 25 Nov 2003 08:49 PM |
| What.. didn't even leave behind any cooked meat for rations? |
~Alosynth
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Re: Crafting: new and improved?
Posted: 25 Nov 2003 09:05 PM |
Slink hi,
What, you kill animals for their skins, with rogue traps?
Is there anything left? Dias tried killing a crag cat with a fireball, and it completely destroyed it.
Well it depends which trap are you using for what :)
with regards,
Elvin |
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