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True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 01:52 PM |
Discussion carried over from IRC, as per request.
A certain person has commented on the vast unfairness surrounding TS seeing a hiding person.
Now, this person's PC has an Assasin level, IIRC.
So, I'll just outline why just being seen is a very NICE implementation of TS for them.
In NWN, TS means that a character can see the location of your character, regardless of spot/listen and hide/ move silently
If the spell were to be done "properly", then this would be the result.
A cleric with the spell cast would be able to see onto the ethereal plane. This is moot here, but would be a real spoiler for anyone trying to sneak past ethereal. However, the Cleric would be able to see a nimbu of alignment aura around your PCs location. Not only would this tell the cleric you were there, but would also tell said cleric your PCs alignment. Assuming you don't want everyone to think you're evil, that's a pretty bad thing.
Which way is better or worse? I'd say, as I said in the last post, the former. TS is different in NWN than in PnP. But it isn't overpowered.
-Barnas |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 01:55 PM |
| Maybe not overpowered, but still implemented very, very badly. It makes the hide skill, which is very important to some classes, completely useless. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 02:00 PM |
| And I'd say that if a Rogue/Assassin wants to pass unseen and not have every Cleric in the vicinity throw on her TS spell, she should not walk around opening containers. Sure, she's invisible, but the container isn't. Even a zero-magic Fighter can see (and hear) a container opening and closing. This also applies for doors opening and closing, and goods floating in mid-air, in case said Rogue/Assassin wants to insist that the shop chests are an OOG mechanism and not an IG reality. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 02:04 PM |
| Landru: But not half as useless as the "correct" PnP version. And the rest of THAT isn't in NWN. I'd say that TS in NWN is underpowered. Almost. |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 02:05 PM |
| Slink said it all. True seeing sucks for rogues and stealthy chars but ey will people RP it right then? We already had a problem with Ronins... |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 02:10 PM |
Yes True Seeing can be a pain in the arse sometimes.......
But to be honest, as long as it isn't on every single monster (as is the case in some/most other Worlds I have experienced (in some cases literally on 90% of monsters, even when it makes no sense)) then I don't see a major issue......
As this is not the case in Vives, hide and move silently are more than useful attributes to have in a character/party imho.......
As for other PC's having it...... then bully for them if they want to choose that spell. It's not on any items as far as I have checked (and made sure it isn't) so only a few in game will ever have it (2 in Vives at present).
Every Character and Class has special abilities etc etc...... and occasionally you will find someone/thing that can "bypass/defeat" these.......
There's little other reason why people might want it banned/altered other than that they like to PP/PK a lot or somesuch..... message here is to choose your targets carefully?..... although please do correct me if I'm wrong :)
Cheers
Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 02:11 PM |
Actually the way Trueseeing was orrigionally designed was to detect all magical ways of concealing you char. The one thing that it could not see past was the Regular old hide spell. This is the Trueseeing that was orrigional made for the PnP version of D&D. It does not, i repeat does not see or even give you a better chance of detecting hidden people.
My whole proble with this spell is that people (me for one) that have spent alot of skill points and sacrificed alot to increase their hide skills (by using +hide and ms eq in lue of eq that would buff ac and skills) can easily be detect by people that have a -7 spot or listen check (people that can cast trueseeing, have not put and skills into the 2 skills and are weaing heavy armour with a tower shield have about a -7 to spot and listen). This is horrible and it is a 100% guaranteed sucess.
I dont like this one bit, I realize that not amny monsters have the Trueseeing ability, ... but that is not my concern. My concern is that when I'm rping with people they just turn on trueseeing and all of my skills are negated instantly.
I think that inorder to have a good chance to spot someone that has put so much into hiding skills that you should have to put alot into detection skills.
If i want to spy on a group that has someone a part of it that has trueseeing then i am sol. Barnas, i realize that Fri'el does not alwayse have it on but you alwayse have it on when you go out, and it lasts a long time. Expecially durring events you will alwayse have it on. I think you know what i am talking about.
It is only fair to require that people who want to catch someone maximizing hiding should have to maximize their detection skills. Its just so wrong the way it is. If anyone get the slightest inclination that someone might be around the first thing that goes up is trueseeing.
God forbid there actually be a reason to engage in some type of Player vs Player combat TS will completly negate ALL of a rogue, assassin, or SD's skills. Every last one and he will have no chance.
TS was implemented so horribly wrong and the only reason i can come up with is that bioware was afraid that people would complain about having to play the OC and continually getting killed by Sneak Attacking rogues so they make the spell function the way it does. There is no reason for it to work this way in vives as you have a party, if you want to catch sneaky people you should HAVE to get someone in your party with high detection ability.
For everyone so strongly opposing any changes i want to know why you think it should function the way it does.
For alo and any other DM i am not looking to a "were going to change it right away" answer, i'm just simply looking to get it on the list of things to do. Even if it takes months to get to it i'm fine as long as people can see the problem and desire to atleast do something about it in the future.
*wow i cant believe how much better i am getting a typing, this is cool. I dont even have to look at the keyboard anymore. Go me* |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 02:14 PM |
| This has already been discussed in large detail here |
~Alosynth
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 02:16 PM |
| Fri'el did not have TS on today in Midor, until Loli saw a chest open by itself at Billy Bob's. She told Fri'el (and Coruva), and Fri'el put on her TS spell. She does -not- always have it on, but if people are going to make objects move for mysterious reasons in her vicinity she will certainly put it on. Fri'el and Loli both spend their days fighing enough really weird stuff that they aren't going to say "Ooo, look, a moving chest lid" and then go on chatting about the weather unconcerned. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 04:19 PM |
Fri'el did not have TS on today in Midor, until Loli saw a chest open by itself at Billy Bob's. She told Fri'el (and Coruva), and Fri'el put on her TS spell. She does -not- always have it on, but if people are going to make objects move for mysterious reasons in her vicinity she will certainly put it on. Fri'el and Loli both spend their days fighing enough really weird stuff that they aren't going to say "Ooo, look, a moving chest lid" and then go on chatting about the weather unconcerned.
Again, not my main problem with it. Its the ability of someone with no skill in spot and listen to even be able to see hidden people in the first place. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 04:47 PM |
| Maybe rogues should have a way to by-pass true seeing... :) |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 05:45 PM |
No. They shouldn't. TS is an absoluely necessary to combat hiding for monsters. Player classes don't need it so much, but if you give stalk/hide chars a way to avoid being detected by TS then they don't even need to fear dragons.
Example: Shadowdancer sneak attacks dragon, moves out of reach, hides, waits for new round. Sneak attacks dragon... wash, rinse, repeat... dead dragon. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 06:37 PM |
No. They shouldn't. TS is an absoluely necessary to combat hiding for monsters. Player classes don't need it so much, but if you give stalk/hide chars a way to avoid being detected by TS then they don't even need to fear dragons.
Example: Shadowdancer sneak attacks dragon, moves out of reach, hides, waits for new round. Sneak attacks dragon... wash, rinse, repeat... dead dragon.
If I may play devil's advocate... *walks over to pinball machine labeled "Devil's Advocate" and starts playing*
heh, gotta love the simpsons....
Anyway, what I mean to say is, wouldn't a dragon really componsate by having a super high spot/listen and not through TS?
Well, it's a moot point anyway, since we have no way to control the TS effect itself in NWN. We do have the ability to change the spell, but doing that is too coarse grained, IMO, since I haven't seen a good replacement with existing effects.
-Q |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 07:07 PM |
I dont even think that Trueseeing is a necessary skill at all. You have see invisible for invisible creatures and clairvoyance/vlairaudiance to add to spot and listen cheks. Your right q, if you want to make a monster that cannot be snuck past all you have to do is give him very high spot and listen checks.
I would vote to tag TS as not a player castable spells (just remove it from vives). I'll probably get some heat from this but oh well. I've looked at some of the fixes and they realy dont work well. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 08:11 PM |
| I agree with Hades, but well, I'm a hardass. ;) |
Question Authority! |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 08:18 PM |
| Im with Hades aswell. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 09:09 PM |
| I also agree with Hades |
My lamentable plight... I am calamity.
fire... burning....agony...
sultry shivers of a dark essence
why am i tortured with this nihilistic existence?
-Maddox |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 09:29 PM |
The following is meant as heavy-handed humor.
Can we stick a sword into the thin air in front of moving chest lids, if we can't see anyone there, and have it not be classed as actionable PK? Hey, if I can't see it, it's not a PC right? |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 09:38 PM |
The following is meant as heavy-handed humor.
Can we stick a sword into the thin air in front of moving chest lids, if we can't see anyone there, and have it not be classed as actionable PK? Hey, if I can't see it, it's not a PC right?
Sure, but then you have to eat whatever you catch. All of it |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 10:01 PM |
| If the air stabs back it's not a PK either. |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 10:51 PM |
True enough Tasra; and I will be glad to roast and consume whatever I catch that way, Hades, if the oven script supports that. *grin*
My underlying point is, all the invisibility and sneaking in the world doesn't allow for physically moving items in full sight of people. Even if I can't see the Invisible Man, I can sure see the puddle when he takes a leak in right in front of me. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 10:54 PM |
True enough Tasra; and I will be glad to roast and consume whatever I catch that way, Hades, if the oven script supports that. *grin*
My underlying point is, all the invisibility and sneaking in the world doesn't allow for physically moving items in full sight of people. Even if I can't see the Invisible Man, I can sure see the puddle when he takes a leak in right in front of me.
If he was invisible, how'd ya know it was *him* taking a pee? True Seeing -- That's how! |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 10:56 PM |
| But I'd know -someone- was there, so I'd stop talking about my plans to raid the Invisible Man hideout and rid the world of Invisible Men. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 21 Nov 2003 11:23 PM |
| you'd ask your rogue buddy to turn on search mode and piss on him. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: True Seeing
Posted: 22 Nov 2003 04:08 AM |
It's very easy to say "That spell's UNFAIR!" They can SEE my character! I mean...dude.. that's just not right!...
Now... I really hate to burst the bubble here, but you shouldn't just be able to sneak past every player on the server. Especially if your intending to do them harm. If you give people no reason to suggest you're there, no-one has TS up. AS IS, there's only 4 PCs on the server who can cast the danged spell...
It's not overpowered. There's no need to remove it. There's PLENTY of spells which annoy me. How about that they didn't alignment shift gate, so everyone who casts the spell has to call forth a CE creature? That's right, they butchered the best spell in DnD which can be used for summoning to mean that everyone who casts it has to be summoning Demons. Good players don't think your characters evil when you do that at all, do they? That sucks for my PC, but there's nothing I can do about it. But I digress..
True seeing isn't overpowered. As such, there is simply no need to "fix" or "remove" it.
Because at the moment, I don't imagine many PCs find people sneaking to be that much of an offensive action. Because they're possible to spot with magic. But, I assure you, if TS gets removed, Sneaking near my PC will be, in my books, treated as starting a PvP. And be responded to in kind. With a barrage of spells which no rogue on the server could survive. Since there's no honest reason that they'd be sneaking there. Is there. And since I can't SEE what they're doing... you get the idea.
I hate the notion of fixing true seeing. As far as I'm concerned, no offence meant to anyone, it's "This is unfair on my PC! Fix it!". NWN isn't perfect. But it does give a balanced system. This proposed change would drasticly and permanatly make sneaking more powerful than any other method of hiding.
Fri'el can go ONTO ANOTHER BLECKING PLANE! That's with the spell "Greater Sanctury".. pnp known as Ethereal Jaunt. TS sees her. And if it can see someone who isn't even THERE, I think it can spot little roguey woos sneaking about in front of a shop.
-Barnas
[And hades, I don't think there is a high lvl rogue kicking about who plays regularily, thus it's kind of hard for Fri'el to do that.] |
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