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Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 02:25 PM |
Okay, after having openned my mouth and inserted my foot on the healing kit issue, one would think i wouldn't start another thread for a while, but the vendors in the game are badly in need of fixing.
Here's the issue, and everyone knows of it, and i'll state why i think it's a problem. The vendors have been setup with a finite amount of money. The more people sell to them, the lower the price they will give you on successive items. This wouldn't be a problem but the vendors funds never get reset, that IS a problem.
Now i know, some will argue that it brings realism into the game to only allow the vendors a certain amount of money, and it also keeps everyone from having gobs of cash. The problem with the gobs of cash theory is that we're always going to end up having that anyway. Most people in the game already state that they have more money then they know what to do with. And it's highly unfair to have really great items drop that you can't use yet can't sell either because you get squat for them. While i understand the want for a bit more realism and a bit less gold floating around, realistically, one would realise that we are far from being the only people in the city....it IS a city, after all. That being stated, we would not be the only ones frequenting these places, therefore others would be buying and selling as well. So the funds should technically not be based off of just us and what we do as players, if you're wanting THAT much realism.
Now, there's three ways i see that we could fix this.
1) Set vendors so they don't have any fixed money amount at all. I don't really feel this is a good solution. Not to mention that we REALLY need to scrap all the junk that's sold to the vendors after a certain amount of time. 20 pages worth of items is silly unless it's ALL armor.
2) Reset the funds of the vendors every once in a while so that they go back to a certain amount and you can once again sell to them. Workable, but i feel some would complain about this.
3) Here is my choice, and one that i like the best, BUT which would require a lot more work on the designers part. Something which i am loath to do, as they already have a crap load of work on their shoulders, but this is the best idea as i see it. So here it is.
Make the vendors ACTUALLY have something worth buying. Don't put them there just so we can sell stuff. That's kind of silly anyway. You want realism...no one makes money by just buying stuff and then letting it sit there. People make money by creating things that are in demand and then selling them. Creating items that are hard to get elsewhere. So design weapons and armor and items that we as players would want to buy. That way, when we find items and then sell them, the money ends up going right back to the vendors anyway because we then use that money we've saved to buy a really neat item they have. That's my idea anyway *shrugs*
Okay...so anyone feel free to punch holes in my ideas....or come up with new and even better ones. Perhaps things are already in the works to fix this and i just don't know about it? I'm not sure, but that's the reason i'm posting this, so we can get some ideas going and make Vives an even better place to have fun. |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 02:44 PM |
| There are things IG characters will buy. Fri'el carries on her about 20-30k worth of dresses. She buys them from Versuci; and even I as a player like the things :P |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 02:58 PM |
aye..
first thing :
the Vendors -do- get reset.. when a DM gets IG and do it..
tho we dont do it too often - cuz then :
a. most of the presistancy idea goes away.
b. you dont want to have loads of money on the server without any items.
right now, IMO the vendors work pretty fine.. and the one thing needed, is that they will randomly sell items to 'no one' - cuz after all, not only the 'heroes' or chars.. or what ever you call them.. buy food or magical items..
i always think/thougt there are more ppl IG then players.. i mean NPCs.. but they are not visible cuz they dont affect your chars much.. and making loads of NPC that will walk around.. will just lag the server (I dont want to get to George's limits by making shitloads of NPCs =p)
so..
if there will be random buyers.. IMO it might improve the economy.. also..
it can lead to other things.. maybe we can have random PPers? so when you get into port royale you got a 0.01% chance of buying PPed? if not succeeded, a poor bugger appears - asking for mercy.
anyway... IMO the system works allright now..
I beside adding things, I dont see any reasons for drastic mesurements.. as we dont have any drastic problems IMO.
also.. giving them more items.. well.. I dont think so..
I have seen the vendors, more than one time, with more than 100gps ..
so i think this actually proves that just sitting there buying stuff - works ;)
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 04:04 PM |
During the ore shortage, there was a certain Dwarven character who regularly visited Midor's merchants and bought up all the items made of copper, most of those made of bronze, and even some made of iron. Rador made out like a bandit during that time period. *grin*
It might be interesting to script sorting out the items by merchant type once a week, or more often if that was practical. At that time, excess could be sold to the invisible masses or even exported from Vives. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 04:57 PM |
Okay...so anyone feel free to punch holes in my ideas....or come up with new and even better ones.
The intent with trying to limit the merchants was to develop a player-driven economy. You can buy & sell amongst yourselves. I'm not saying we've acheived that, and I don't think we have, but that's the goal. It is good to readdress this point, since it has fallen off the radar.
-Q |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 04:58 PM |
This is why I still like my idea of adding in a few merchants that are alignment specific. My general idea was to add a black market area in a city or two that only cater to NE/CE/True neutral (lawful Evil will still not use this method, as it would be unlawful). This way it spreads out the funds and what characters can go where. With less rogues/bards going to the regular merchants, it allows them to get more cash for the items sold, and likewise less rogues/bards that use the regular merchants allows all the OTHERS the same bonus.
As well, this would allow several merchants to be more specific (Like trap merchants, poison merchants, etc). Just an idea, not sure how it would be implemented on the script side but throwing them into existing areas would be extremel simple (Simple trap doors in docks/alleys/sewers).
Concerning Q's post as well, I was just wondering if we still have a working script for player vendor NPC's or not.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 05:17 PM |
The problem with the player driven economy idea is there are not, nor ever will be, enough players on the server to facilitate this. That idea MIGHT work in an MMORPG evironment, if it's done properly. Some MMORPG's have pulled it off, others have not.
This still comes back to the fact that, I, at only level 6 have a ton of money, and nothing to spend it on. Do you see my point? Most people that pick up an item either give it to a friend, or sell it. You do need the money in case you happen to die and have to respawn or for healing kits, but other then that, it's rather useless, at least to me.
And while i respect Barnas for saying that Fri'el spends lots of gold at Versuci's.....Veshtan is not in the habit of frequenting such a place, and never will be. He's more concerned about what will keep him alive and make him a better warrior...not in looking better for everyone.
I'm still walking around with a bunch of empty slots on my character with nothing to fill in. While Fenarisk's idea of having alignment specific merchants is a good idea, it doesn't solve the problem that everyone has a lot of money, even with your intent that having limited money on vendors is to keep limited money in game, and little spend that money on. I at times will go to the vendors to see what people have sold to see if there is something i'd like to pick up and have found several nice items. That works, sort of, but hardly solves the issue. I don't like having to talk to 10 different merchants before i find someone that has enough money to pay me anywhere near what the item is worth.
Not enough character specific items can be found in the game, and that's a big problem, IMO. That's why i suggested having vendors sell a variety of items that someone might actually want to purchase. I use a greatsword, it's what i specialize in. Yet i haven't found a SINGLE weapon better then the iron greatsword that i have. That is HORRIBLY sad. So while Fri'el might enjoy buying new gowns and dresses, that's not Veshtan's thing, he enjoys purchasing new armor and swords, yet he can't, because there is no place to do so.
Oh, and i don't mean to shoot down the idea of a player driven economy, i think it's a great idea, i just don't feel it will work well with the way the game is setup at the moment. Perhaps when everything finally gets set in place, things will run more smoothly because there's more to work with. |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 05:24 PM |
Want a weapon better than an Iron Greatsword? Ask the players. Want some nicer armour? Ask the players. The former they can make. The latter they can direct you to (I sold a suit of XXXX to YYYY).
I see your point about clothes. I was just saying that some Vendors do have money, because people -do- go to them and spend money.
And, IMHO, the best source of weapons are other players who will enchant them for you. Either that or finding them. (And I hate to say it, buy Veshtan is lvl 6. He can't use anything much better than an iron greatsword anyway. +2 is lvl 7, +1 +1d6 elemental is lvl 8 :P).
All IMHO... I'll shut up now...
-Barnas |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 05:30 PM |
Barnas is right. As of this time, there is at least 2 PC's if I remember right that are level 6-8 in every craft (except for the un-done ones, such as alchemy and enchanting). That includes weapons/armors. I know for a fact that some dwarves are very good smithies.
And yes, there is way too much money. Perhaps we can apply monetary values or other ideas for us to use our gold for, such as gambling, buffs from the local temple, or even weak mercenaries or some new ways to identify items. Just some ideas.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 06:19 PM |
I'd disagree with that statement, there is a LOT more you can put on a weapon then just enhancement bonus or 1D6 damage modifier. That's a very narrow view to have on what a weapon can do. And while i would agree, those are probably the two MOST important ones, they are by no means the end all and be all.
Yes, i am only lvl 6 so i can't use a +2 for one more level (Which i'm working very hard to get) but that doesn't mean that there should be nothing else from which to choose.
And while i also have gotten items from other PC's (such as my greatsword) i feel there still isn't enough variety to go around.
Remember, this is just my opinion, of course. And it in no way means that Vives is bad. I'm still playing, aren't i? *grins* If i thought it was bad, i'd have stopped playing. My point is this, in a player driven economy, sometimes it's very VERY hard to find something you want. I'm just trying to throw out ideas, that's all. I'd simply like a bit more variety. (Believe me, Barnas, i'll be camping on Fri'el's doorstep once i'm level eight asking for her to enchant my greatsword *winks*) It's a bit....irritating to go to a vendor and see 5 or 6 magical great axes with the SAME exact name, and little else in the way of want to have items. |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 06:24 PM |
Please don't take this the wrong way, I appreciate what you're saying and I'm just giving a little fact out about similar items names/properties, and I'm not yelling or complaining, I do like this post as it brings up some nice topics . I'd say at least 80% of the items you come across are not from the basic NWN item tables or from the regular toolset. Many of the items are custom made, and we are still working on some CNR items for minerals/materials/variations in minor aspects to a weapon such as looks, type, color, etc. Problem is all of these have to be hand-made, and since CNR is still being tweaked they are not IG yet.
I know for a fact there is a big variety of items of similar types that are made specifically for the level 6-12 range (Mid level-High Level range at the moment), the problem at the moment is they are still being insterted into treasure tables. I can guarantee you name any item (Chain Mail, Longsword, Bows, or even Slings and Lanterns, Harps, and Bags), and we've got 10+ types of each sitting in the toolset available to be given out through DM means, just not vendor means ATM.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 06:35 PM |
Barnas is right. As of this time, there is at least 2 PC's if I remember right that are level 6-8 in every craft (except for the un-done ones, such as alchemy and enchanting). That includes weapons/armors. I know for a fact that some dwarves are very good smithies.
And yes, there is way too much money. Perhaps we can apply monetary values or other ideas for us to use our gold for, such as gambling, buffs from the local temple, or even weak mercenaries or some new ways to identify items. Just some ideas.
~Fenarisk
gold should weigh something.
-Q |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 09:04 PM |
Here comes the monk guy...
Fen, Q, Barnas, Vesth, well I think its funny to see people arguing about that there is not enought armor for your char, or nor selling but that some players can do them and they are very nice etc.....and that the items that drop are nice but we cant sell them or use cuz not enought level. bla bla bla.
My answer is theres no trading skill for monk stuff so no one can do monk items, so solution number one doesnt work, loot well monk items dont drop or rarelly drop, ok lets wait for DM rewards thats the solution? So basicaly your saying ask your gods to dress to give you weapons.....Fighters and mages have tons of items IG stop complaining, ask around for crafters, look carefully in stores, and even with shitie gold coming from the things I sell Im always with very much money....dont understand how you say your short it seams your the only one....... |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 09:44 PM |
Fenarisk, that's a point that is VERY well taken. That's the whole reason i said i don't want to add to the work load already. You guys have put together something that is so amazingly nice, that i absolutely love it. This post is a wish. I'm saying it would be nice to have this, i'm not saying that the game stinks because it doesn't. I've already said that once. From what you said about items waiting to be put in....that pretty much allays any kind of fear i had, or wish to change things greatly. I still think the vendors need to be tinkered with a bit, because while barnas says you can go to Versuci, he's got money, i really don't want to sell my amulet of protection +3 to him for 1 gold piece.
Oh, and Quietus...*laughs* you're dang right it should. The ONLY problem i have with that, is this. That would mean that fighters or anyone with a high strength would automatically be allowed to be much richer then others, simply because of strength, and that's not very fair. If you wanted to make gold weigh something, i'd say do what i saw in another game (can't remember it, sorry) Make gold weigh as much as it truly should, but allow you to trade it in for gems. You buy the gem for 8000, you can then sell it back if you need money for 6000 or something like that.
And Ch'ang, i certainly understand your grievance. I greatly enjoy playing a monk, and i have yet to see much of anything that is tailored to their likings. That being said, i don't think you really read my post, or if you did, you greatly misunderstood it, as Fen and Quietus and the others seem to have understood what i was asking for. I never once mentioned DM's. I never once asked for my gods to dress me, or to give me fine weapons or armor. Nor did i ever say that i was short of gold, if you'll go look, i said i was the exact opposite. If you'd been looking, my complaint was two fold. 1) It's annoying to have to run around and search for vendors that have money and that they need to be reset. Apparently they are, just not very often. Vendors having little money wasn't much of a problem when i first started playing, but it's becoming more of a one since people are finding more and more items. 2) My second complaint was that i HAD a lot of money, not that i didn't have any, and couldn't find much to spend it on. So while your point is well taken, just as i already agreed to the others that told me to talk to players about crafting items (If you'll look, i already said i got my sword from one), i felt that there wasn't as much as i would have liked. Now Fen, being the nice person that he is, has explained there's a bunch of stuff on the drawing board. So now i'm satisfied. I simply had a concern and now it's been answered. Oh and Ch'ang, there are NOT a ton of items in the game for THIS certain fighter, though i'll grant there's a hell of a lot more then there are items for monks.
Edit--
Oh and Fenarisk, what was to be taken wrong? *laughs* You simply told me there was a bunch of stuff you were doing, that's certainly understandable. It's not like you called me an idiot and that it was a stupid suggestion i had made. *winks* |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 09:55 PM |
Maybe I stood you wrong yes... but I belive that the only idea here that can be used is Dens one. NPCs also buy stuff and if heros can travel and fight the big badies well they cant they are simple persons that will find awesome tools and weapons seling in merchants. So the idea of selling stuff to no one and get back money in the merchant is the perfect solution, it would make merchants invents with 3 or 4 windows again not 10 11 like now, and would make them have money.
But I still dont understand whats your problem with getting just a few gp for an item if you have so much..... Oh an please the ammy +3 protection sell it to me I can give more then the merchants will =) |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 13 Nov 2003 11:52 PM |
*laughs*
Ch'ang, i'll GIVE it to you. There's not need for that. I think i have an extra one. I ummm...sold another to Versuci for 1gp...on accident. *coughs and blushes* |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 04:50 AM |
wow this got long =p
I wont read everything.. cuz i dont have much time =p
anyways, what did i want to say? O_O
*smack his head*
oh yeah!
I think adding some indetifying ol' mage or something can be pretty nice..
also.. he will take much gold.. cuz there will always be buyers ;)
and - I think we can add in some 'broken' items.. what do i mean?
having some items unidentified.. with -'s to dmg.. or something.. and then having chars identifying them as well..
IMO, might be a bit annoying for the players (muhahaha =p) but will bust those stocks o' gold =p
and will also make it more realistic... i mean.. I always see 'normal' crafted items.. and magical items (oh yeah.. and from time to time some normal items) .. i never see a broken dagger.. or a rusted great axe.. I think if we have items with 'upsides' we should also have items with downside..
then increase the amount of gold vendors ask for 'normal and good' items... (and increase the ratio between buying and selling these) so new PCs .. wont go around with a +1 dagger... they will go around with a 'badly crafted and-not-so-sharp dagger' untill they get enough money to get a new one.. also.. having CNR items.. harder to craft - then having these items easier to craft (if you had chance of 50% to suceed now... you create the item.. that got 60% to be a 'badly crafted' one.. with having lower xp, and 40% to be a 'normal' weapons.. and also .. really low chance.. you can make a 'better crafted' one)
I know this might get complicated - and pretty much work for the builders..
but if it gets IG (after balancing it and thinking it over) it can add quite a lot.
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 04:51 AM |
I dont think anyone would argue that they could use more stuff! But the balance seems quite nice with what seems like more powerful magic items not being so readily available. Personally I enjoy the 11+ pages of items merchants have, digging around looking for something you haven't seen before or stumbling across something you can really use...thats fun for me (am I the only one!?).
I dont know if in the long term this will become a problem with merchants having 30+ pages, now that I can see as being frustrating.
Talking of those +3 Amulets, has anyone found they are one of the most common items in the game. Its seems I can't walk around a corner without tripping over one! Yet somehow I still dont have any gold! |
Eerel Swiftfoot
Self proclaimed fasterest little person in da land
Eerel's Story:
http://vives.dyndns.org/vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=49386 |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 06:02 AM |
Yea i like it aswell Para. Finding something you could really use in 11 pages is pretty nice. Makes you really browse the merchants. I like that and I think they are fine as they are now. There are specialised merchants which sell like mostly armors or weapons and some just sell anything.
Sug |
"ehehehehe,.."
Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo. |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 07:05 AM |
| I never had a problem with vendors. My rogue was alwayse "finding" stuff that sold for alot somewhere. You just have to hit the vendors untill you find one that has a good price. You can also try selling it to a player, i've made out good that way too. I would avoid giving items away tho, unless you have a reason to. Its just not very realistic and reduces the need for money. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 07:35 AM |
A comment on the abundance of relatively 'powerful' + items. For a while vives had trouble controlling the kind of item a monster would drop or a chest would hold. These high + items readily available, shows it is still an issue, since that stuff should NOT be readily available. Treasure tables need to get tweaked. Which means more work, which proves again vives is for from reaching a 'finished' status kind of thing. Patience is a virtue.
Also what I still find rather annoying and pretty inconsiderate, is people hoarding on 'plot', unique item finds. Finding these with the vendors, shows me we might as well take out these items, since people only seem intent on using them to generate more cash on a regularly basis.
Same with the amount of money people carry. That was never the intention. It appears still relatively easy to accumulate gold. Anyone concerned with this and yet well aware how he can acquire a good sum of gold, PLEASE, use the bug reporter to inform the staff how that goes, so it can be dealt with and balance things a bit more.
Personally, I do like the basics of the Vendor System. It makes more sense to keep something in a shop till it gets sold again then having them sell the same basic crap every reset. The latter makes the game way too predictable. Also, DM's DO keep an eye on vendors, to make sure the powerful item sprees stay in check, and to occasionally reset their gold value. So don't worry about that.
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 08:46 AM |
The vendors pay a lot for something they have nothing of, and very little for what they have abundantly. If you find a +3 amulet, try going to different vendors until you find one who has few or none of them. You will get a much better price for it. People should not expect the Honest Peddlar right by the gate of Midor to pay top dollar for something she already has five of in stock.
I guess I'm not sure what qualifies as "insane" amounts of gold. When Loli sold her first home-made helms to Rador she got 750 gold each for them. She gets a lot less than that now, because a lot of people are making and selling helms now. But that was 4500 gold, which appears to be an amount some people in the game resent someone else having. Yet she spends easily 1000 in gold every time she restocks on bandages, so 4500 gold is pocket money for her.
Something I have noticed, in this game as well as in past online discussions of a lot of other games, is that people who pick up and sell -everything- they find never run short on cash while those who disdain to pick up anything but the most unique items both run short on cash and complain about not being able to afford to buy things. A gold piece made is ... well, a gold piece made.
The thing that frustrates me is that Loli has found +3 of almost every weapon except the one she uses. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 09:14 AM |
| Have you find a 3+ glove =) I need it =) |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 09:26 AM |
Ice.. probably not..
and I hate to do it but -
"This is not the place to search trades.. the only place your char should look for items is IG,
good day, and thank you"
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Vendors
Posted: 14 Nov 2003 09:47 AM |
Dens....you understood it wrong... this topic is OOC so everything said in here is OOC it was purelly ironic when I said it.
Though I belive that in a IC forum or buletim board I can put an anuncement to buy some item i look for.
Not the case though. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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