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Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 20 Nov 2007 12:26 PM |
This thread is intended as a companion to the XP Function thread. As that thread is primarily concerned with technical means of calculating XP disbursement, it was clear to me that it was missing a much more fundamental issue: what we want the XP system to accomplish.
Here's the Vives XP System ethos.
I think that document is a good starting point. To sum up:
- Vives system strives to (1) reward classes differently, (2) balance game mechanics, (3) encourage partying, and (4) encourage diverse activity/play.
- The means to this was to divide rewards into Questing, Combat, Discovery, Ability-Usage, Crafting, and Magic Harnessing - while giving each class a different efficiency in each of these categories.
I like the goals of this system very much. I think they are critical to the spirit of Vives, and I do not intend this discussion as a reexamination of their validity.
What I DO think would be a great help is for the community to discuss this system, where it succeeds, where it fails, what it has overlooked that is important to us. Here's some starting point questions:
(1) What else should the Vives XP system strive to do?
eg. What styles of play are most important to Vives? What styles have likely been overlooked?
(2) Where has the execution of this system failed (give well defined, specific examples and an explicit reason for why you think there is a failure)?
(3) What in the execution of this system was a great idea but poorly executed?
(4) What gameplay activities should be rewarded but have been overlooked?
(5) What rewards are best handled by DMs rather than a script?
[edit]
PS.
As a framework for parts of this discussion, and an interesting reference I suggest checking out the article, Players Who Suit MUDs. I imagine we could have a similar discussion about Vives and derive different play style types.
[/edit] |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 20 Nov 2007 07:53 PM |
(1) What else should the Vives XP system strive to do?
I find that the Vives XP system, fundamentally, manages to achieve exactly what it sets out to do, which is reward different types of play. This is done according to a character's abilities, but unlike an opinion I've seen flying around, it doesn't try to restrict certain classes into certain types of play. I think it's important to stress out that in most cases CLASSES are ABILITIES, they represent a certain type of play.
For example: a wizard represents a style of play which involves magic and spells to get through the game world - why would anyone make a wizard if he wanted to do a lot of melee combat? What does "wizard" mean to people? To me it means "someone who uses spells", and I'd make a wizard if my character would go around the world with that particular style.
eg. What styles of play are most important to Vives? What styles have likely been overlooked?
Hard to say. Your ability to interact with the world is limited to what scripts have been implemented. I think Vives covers the main styles of play adequately.
(2) Where has the execution of this system failed (give well defined, specific examples and an explicit reason for why you think there is a failure)?
I have two issues with the system, which I've mentioned previously:
1. Spellcasting XP - it's a resource that drains really fast, particularly for sorcerers who get a limited amount of spell selection compared to wizards. I think Vives kind of addressed the sorcerer/wizard difference by giving sorcerers a higher percentage of Spellcasting XP. However, I'd also like to see, if possible, the system rewarding metamagic spells differently from their casual counterparts. For example: if a level 3 Fireball is worth 150 XP (first cast) so an Empowered Fireball - which counts as level 5 - is worth 200 XP, but not as much as an actual level 5 spell.
2. Ability usage - I've raised this issue and it's been addressed to some extent, but I'll raise it again. First, in Vives skill use is rewarded based on particular instances: an example can be made of a trap in Dungeon X is scripted to grant 300 XP for disabling it, but a trap in Dungeon Y isn't scripted at all. Instead, the reward should be based on the implementation of the skill rather than the particular instance. Instead of a specific trap granting 300 XP, using the Disabling Trap skill on a DC 20 trap is worth 300 XP (first disarm), or a Lockpicking skill used on a DC 30 trap is worth 600 XP (first lockpick), and decreases with each success.
Second, I'd like to see more abilities rewarded, even if to a smaller extent: a successful Taunt check, Counterspelling (perhaps countering a spell can reward XP as if the spell was cast? more options for a sorcerer), and other abilities. You can get more diversity on "Ability Usage" rather than just picking locks or disabling traps.
(3) What in the execution of this system was a great idea but poorly executed?
I think I covered this in the earlier question, though I don't see it as a fail per-say, or even a poor execution - but one that can be expanded.
(4) What gameplay activities should be rewarded but have been overlooked?
Like I said in the first question, it's difficult to say. Different ways to interact with a game are limited.
(5) What rewards are best handled by DMs rather than a script?
Definitely roleplay experience. Some people have suggested rewarding role play based on lines written, but role play isn't equivalent to chatting, and isn't restricted to that. Role play can be done everywhere and in any situation, but not all of it deserves reward - the rewards are given for exceptional role play, and no script can be the judge of that. For example (and this is my opinion), three characters sitting in a bar for the third day in a row chatting on pretty much the same stuff might be chatting and might be role play, but it's not one which deserves experience. Three characters who explore the depths of some secret ruin and role play their adventure beyond the usual combat-chatter might deserve a reward. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 21 Nov 2007 01:10 PM |
I find that the Vives XP system, fundamentally, manages to achieve exactly what it sets out to do, which is reward different types of play. This is done according to a character's abilities, but unlike an opinion I've seen flying around, it doesn't try to restrict certain classes into certain types of play. I think it's important to stress out that in most cases CLASSES are ABILITIES, they represent a certain type of play.
I disagree, builds are abilities not classes (with the significant exception of single class characters). A well thought out multiclass character will have unique capabilities and specializations. Sometimes it will make sense to consider the build in terms of its constituent classes, other times it will not.
(5) What rewards are best handled by DMs rather than a script?
Definitely roleplay experience. Some people have suggested rewarding role play based on lines written, but role play isn't equivalent to chatting, and isn't restricted to that. Role play can be done everywhere and in any situation, but not all of it deserves reward - the rewards are given for exceptional role play, and no script can be the judge of that. For example (and this is my opinion), three characters sitting in a bar for the third day in a row chatting on pretty much the same stuff might be chatting and might be role play, but it's not one which deserves experience. Three characters who explore the depths of some secret ruin and role play their adventure beyond the usual combat-chatter might deserve a reward.
I second this point though. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 21 Nov 2007 01:18 PM |
Frimble:
Perhaps you should define what you mean by "abilities".
I think doing so might explain why you disagree with the assertion that classes - which group abilities according to fantasy archetypes - do not fit within the "ability" category.
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I also agree that RP XP dispersal should strictly be in the hands of a human agent rather than a script. I wonder however if this should only be the province of DMs. Could players reward other players? Perhaps by identifying others with a widget for good roleplay, and the server tracks these or something? Once a week enough votes from enough players (tracked by CD key) applied to a single character results in some award? |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 21 Nov 2007 02:23 PM |
Frimble:
Perhaps you should define what you mean by "abilities".
I think doing so might explain why you disagree with the assertion that classes - which group abilities according to fantasy archetypes - do not fit within the "ability" category.
I second that, and also ask that you define what a Class is for you. What does being a Wizard/Sorcerer/Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/etc mean for you and your character? How do you see the differences between a Wizard and a Fighter, aside from the fact the former has magical abilities while the latter martial abilities. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 21 Nov 2007 02:24 PM |
Normally I use the term in the way it is defined in the PnP Players Handbook to refer to the six core statistics: Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha. In this case I was trying to use the same definition of 'abilities' as WA. This does not really answer your question, so I'll try again.
I am not familiar with fantasy archetypes. When I create a character, one of my first considerations, along with their personality, is what heroic fantasy powers I want the character to have. How the character actually comes to be able to cast spells, fight unarmed, use power attack, tumble past opponents... even identify treasure usually (not always) comes second to this (if I even consider it at all), they can do these things simply because it fits the theme of the character.
In Tolkien's books, (I use this example because most people here will have read them) Sauron can take the form of animals and monsters in a way very similar to wild shape, he can also dispel magic using something very similar to bard song. Does this make him a druid/bard/...? I would argue not, If I wanted to write up rules for him I might well use these classes, but I wouldn't think of him as a druid/bard even if he had these rules and would see little reason to RP him in the way suggested by 90% discovery xp.
In the same way Luthien can sing monsters to sleep, and can hide in plain sight. A Bard/Shadowdancer? Maybe, but that doesn't mean she has to be a traveling minstrel either.
You could say these characters are of an archetypes, but to me they are just characters.
My Character Roywyne is going to be a Monk/Sorcerer/Cleric but this is because I want to play her as an energetic little gnome who gets under peoples feat, runs rings around other characters, has some friendly pets, and can make undead crumble into dust just my screaming at them. Roywyne does quite well out of the xp system.
Eltarial on the other hand, I wanted to play as an elf who could cast light spells (such as colour spray, prismatic spray, and sunburst) and then retreat in a cloud of darkness. To me this makes sense, she controls light and darkness (she thinks of them in terms of particle physics and visual art). I decided on the wizard and shadowdancer classes, I took levels of rogue to meet the prerequisites. The fact that Eltarial has rogue levels should not mean that she has to wander round picking locks for xp. She practices a noble art that should not be misused. This character I can't even get to level 8 (so no shadowdancer levels anyway). I made some mistakes with her, she died a lot, but the Vives system didn't give me any room to make up for the xp loss. In the end I started picking the locks round Port Royale because it was the only way I could gain xp.
This seems wrong to me, I would be happy for Roywyne to be penalised by the xp system, she is very powerful powerful, but Eltarial is week, theres no reason why she should loose out. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 21 Nov 2007 03:39 PM |
Wow, Frimble, I don't see why you play D&D. The system totally fails for the kind of characters you want to make. You'd likely enjoy a skill focused fantasy system much much more. Rune Quest is the first one that comes to mind. Its a great system. Very different than D&D in that characters are more realistic, but just as quick of a system for reconciling conflicts etc...
I understand that other RPG systems don't have a computer platform like NWN, and so it totally makes sense for you to be here at Vives. But I highly recommend that you throw out your D&D books and get a different system to play with for PnP play.
For what it is, D&D is really the best system. But to try to use the D20 system for the fluid character concepts that you mention in your post is like trying to recreate nature out of potted plants. It just doesn't work. D&D is probably the worst system for what you want to do.
We used to play Rune Quest for historical based fantasy - basically 8th century British Isles with a few elves and faeries thrown in. It worked very well in that you could build any kind of character you want. The most notable difference from D&D however is that you don't become supernaturally tough. It is a very gritty system that is perfect for making realistic/human characters.
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So anyway, if you want to be literal about the term "abilities" that is fine. The point that I think WA and myself were making is that the class defines your abilities. 3rd edition does allow some fluidity and customization with skills and feats (so that it doesn't have that stultified feel of Warhammer for example) but for the most part Class is what defines what the character can do.
And since Classes define your character in such a manner that they impact the way you approach problems in game - i think it makes sense for them to be treated differently. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 21 Nov 2007 03:49 PM |
Therein I find a flaw in your reasoning. I will explain using your own examples.
I am not familiar with fantasy archetypes. When I create a character, one of my first considerations, along with their personality, is what heroic fantasy powers I want the character to have. How the character actually comes to be able to cast spells, fight unarmed, use power attack, tumble past opponents... even identify treasure usually (not always) comes second to this (if I even consider it at all), they can do these things simply because it fits the theme of the character.
This is pretty much how I perceive the different Classes: a set of powers/abilities/skills/proficiencies or anything you want to call it which are used by the character. A character who uses magic will be a wizard, and a character who is proficient with weapons will be a fighter, and so on depending on the deviation between different classes and abilities.
Certain classes come with a bit more detail with the whole NWN package. A Wizard is someone who casts spell which he learns in a certain way, while a sorcerer is someone who casts spell which he learns in a different way. This is something Vives can adopt into its own, and something it might decide to put its own lore in to fit the unique world it tries to create. However, this doesn't change classes being a set of abilities.
Builds are just those abilities you use from the set of abilities offered by each class. A Wizard generally uses magic, but certain wizard builds will focus on certain schools of magic. A Fighter uses weapons and combat feats, and certain builds will employ different weapons/styles. So on and so forth, even with more "complicated" classes.
In Tolkien's books, (I use this example because most people here will have read them) Sauron can take the form of animals and monsters in a way very similar to wild shape, he can also dispel magic using something very similar to bard song. Does this make him a druid/bard/...? I would argue not, If I wanted to write up rules for him I might well use these classes, but I wouldn't think of him as a druid/bard even if he had these rules and would see little reason to RP him in the way suggested by 90% discovery xp.
Druids get dispels too, no? Who says Sauron can't be a Druid? Who says the Druid dispel can't be something similar to bard song? Who says a Druid has to be a nature-loving hippie? Who says he can't be a Wizard either, with the Polymorph and dispel spells?
Seeing as your example can be a lot of things and still have the abilities you mention, no type of role play is enforced on him. Moreover, I find him a bad example since he's a greatly supernatural creature with innate abilities, like a Beholder and its innate magical rays - very different to the characters we have as players, who are normal humans who learn their abilities as they go.
In the same way Luthien can sing monsters to sleep, and can hide in plain sight. A Bard/Shadowdancer? Maybe, but that doesn't mean she has to be a traveling minstrel either.
What's wrong with Bard/Shadowdancer? A bard doesn't have to be a wandering minstrel, not in the slightest. Just because it's the archetype doesn't mean it's the only way to do it - thinking that is a failure of imagination, not a failure of the system.
For example, when I was writing Vilyavian lore for Vives I came up with Windwalkers, whom I envisioned as men/women who focus on martial prowess and wilderness survival, much like a ranger. They also tend to display further expertise and even a slight hint of more subtle powers, much like a rogue or even a bard. A Windwalker could thus be a Ranger/Rogue or a Ranger/Bard, but being possible bards never made them wandering minstrels in my eyes.
Be that as it may, a bard is still a bard, and even if they aren't minstrels or tavern-singers or whatever common interpretation given to the Bard class, but instead are warriors - their unique nature still did not deviate much from the nature of the bard class. If it had, I wouldn't pick the Bard as a possible class for them.
My Character Roywyne is going to be a Monk/Sorcerer/Cleric but this is because I want to play her as an energetic little gnome who gets under peoples feat, runs rings around other characters, has some friendly pets, and can make undead crumble into dust just my screaming at them. Roywyne does quite well out of the xp system.
That's a fine example of seeing classes as I do - abilities and nothing more.
Lore can limit on where those abilities could come from and the nature behind them, but they're still only abilities.
Eltarial on the other hand, I wanted to play as an elf who could cast light spells (such as colour spray, prismatic spray, and sunburst) and then retreat in a cloud of darkness. To me this makes sense, she controls light and darkness (she thinks of them in terms of particle physics and visual art). I decided on the wizard and shadowdancer classes, I took levels of rogue to meet the prerequisites. The fact that Eltarial has rogue levels should not mean that she has to wander round picking locks for xp. She practices a noble art that should not be misused. This character I can't even get to level 8 (so no shadowdancer levels anyway). I made some mistakes with her, she died a lot, but the Vives system didn't give me any room to make up for the xp loss. In the end I started picking the locks round Port Royale because it was the only way I could gain xp.
So you faced an XP loss that could not be easily recovered. That happens to everyone. Eltarial is no special in this. No offense meant, but it's your fault for giving in to temptation and going against your character's nature in order to gain XP, rather than face the obstacle without deviation from its expected behavior.
This seems wrong to me, I would be happy for Roywyne to be penalised by the xp system, she is very powerful powerful, but Eltarial is week, theres no reason why she should loose out.
I will point out that this is the reason I wished for more skills/abilities to be rewarding, but making a weaker character will have its consequences regardless of that. Maybe you're not the type of player who should make "weak" characters like that?
Edit:
Henesua said it better than I ever could. Listen to him more than you listen to me. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 22 Nov 2007 12:41 PM |
Wow, Frimble, I don't see why you play D&D. The system totally fails for the kind of characters you want to make. You'd likely enjoy a skill focused fantasy system much much more. Rune Quest is the first one that comes to mind. Its a great system. Very different than D&D in that characters are more realistic, but just as quick of a system for reconciling conflicts etc...
I understand that other RPG systems don't have a computer platform like NWN, and so it totally makes sense for you to be here at Vives. But I highly recommend that you throw out your D&D books and get a different system to play with for PnP play.
The 3.5 PnP D&D system allows me to represent most characters very easily. The one time I wrote a class was to represent something very unusual (every spell cast was quickened). I don't find this system limiting at all. The 3.0 system is less versatile, but I can still create most characters I want to.
I will take a look at Rune Quest though. Thanks for the recommendation.
...for the most part Class is what defines what the character can do.
This is true, but for many multiclass characters it is inappropriate to consider the character's capabilities as the sum of the features of each constituent class. I have no objections to bards being played as explorers, or rogues as thieves, but I don't see why these styles should be encouraged above others.
Druids get dispels too, no? Who says Sauron can't be a Druid? Who says the Druid dispel can't be something similar to bard song? Who says a Druid has to be a nature-loving hippie? Who says he can't be a Wizard either, with the Polymorph and dispel spells?
Druid spells are Wisdom based, Bard Spells are Charisma Based, Wizard spells are Intelligence based. If he's singing, then that's a performance so it makes more sense for it to be a charisma based dispel so Bard, or perhaps Sorcerer.
What's wrong with Bard/Shadowdancer? A bard doesn't have to be a wandering minstrel, not in the slightest. Just because it's the archetype doesn't mean it's the only way to do it - thinking that is a failure of imagination, not a failure of the system.
Nothing is wrong with Bard/Shadowdancer, but if you give more xp to a bard for exploring, they will explore more. Give more xp to rogues for opening locks, they will open locks.
As I see it, having a table of xp gains just limits otherwise viable characters by defining what the character must do to progress. It is just an extra factor to consider when creating a character. I am able to work around the Vives xp system, but I would prefer not to have to. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 22 Nov 2007 05:02 PM |
Wow, Frimble, I don't see why you play D&D. The system totally fails for the kind of characters you want to make. You'd likely enjoy a skill focused fantasy system much much more. Rune Quest is the first one that comes to mind. Its a great system. Very different than D&D in that characters are more realistic, but just as quick of a system for reconciling conflicts etc...
I understand that other RPG systems don't have a computer platform like NWN, and so it totally makes sense for you to be here at Vives. But I highly recommend that you throw out your D&D books and get a different system to play with for PnP play.
The 3.5 PnP D&D system allows me to represent most characters very easily. The one time I wrote a class was to represent something very unusual (every spell cast was quickened). I don't find this system limiting at all. The 3.0 system is less versatile, but I can still create most characters I want to.
NWN isn't PnP D&D. It's less versatile than that, and even less versatile than 3.0 D&D. Why? Because NWN is played on a computer platform, and a computer game has its disadvantages as well as advantages.
When it comes to versatility you can give your character builds, the Vives XP System isn't what limits you - it is the nature of NWN as a 3.0 D&D CRPG. My personal opinion is that NWN2, which I believe is 3.5 D&D as well, does a better job at allowing versatility - but the computer part is still out there, and its still limiting.
...for the most part Class is what defines what the character can do.
This is true, but for many multiclass characters it is inappropriate to consider the character's capabilities as the sum of the features of each constituent class. I have no objections to bards being played as explorers, or rogues as thieves, but I don't see why these styles should be encouraged above others. </quote>
Bards are not necessarily explorers, neither Rogues are thieves. However, the abilities of both classes are focused and distributed among different things.
Bards, having an average 3/4 BAB per level, therefore possess average fighting capabilities.
Bards have six levels of spells they can cast, therefore possess mediocore spellcasting capacity.
Bards have 6 skill points per level (I think?), therefore possess above-average skill diversity.
Bards have bard song, therefore possess a unique ability (or in NWN2, a set of abilities).
Bards can do a lot, making them a jack of all trades and a master of none. Being a jack of all trades and master of none isn't necessarily as useful as being a master of one trade, and I daresay it is often inferior.
Be that as it may, they learn and progress from using ALL those abilities, not just one or two. A bard who only fights would not learn as much as a bard who fights AND casts does, because the nature of the Bard class is as such. The XP System rewards the class from using the abilities it possesses - it doesn't force you to do anything you don't want to.
HOWEVER, some people want bards which are fighting-oriented. A pure class Bard who is oriented towards fighting would attempt to use ALL of the abilities I mentioned for that purpose, gaining from each. If you want to play a Bard who won't use all those abilities - that's much like making a Sorcerer who doesn't cast his spells, which means he is losing out: if that's the case, consider multiclassing, which will average the experience from bard levels with the levels of another class, creating both an effective and desired multiclass penalty as well as allowing the character to focus on his chosen set of abilities.
Using the same example, a level 10-Bard/4-Fighter puts more focus on the Bard aspect, and gains more from those abilities, averaged with the lesser focus on Fighting aspects. A level 5-Bard/5-Fighter spends an equal amount of focus on each field, and progresses accordingly. So on and so forth.
This applies to ANY class.
A Wizard whom you plan to mainly use weapons, and perhaps weapon spells, will and should not tap into his full XP potential, because he is skipping on aspects which are the nature of the Wizard class and focusing on aspects which are the nature of another. In addition, if you try to make a character who is TOO diverse and TOO "unconventional", you ARE going to lose out, because that's the nature of NWN and its class-based system.
Druids get dispels too, no? Who says Sauron can't be a Druid? Who says the Druid dispel can't be something similar to bard song? Who says a Druid has to be a nature-loving hippie? Who says he can't be a Wizard either, with the Polymorph and dispel spells?
Druid spells are Wisdom based, Bard Spells are Charisma Based, Wizard spells are Intelligence based. If he's singing, then that's a performance so it makes more sense for it to be a charisma based dispel so Bard, or perhaps Sorcerer.
A good point, but like I said earlier, that's for a large part the limit of NWN and its class-based system, with Sauron given as a VERY unconventional example that in my opinion isn't even relevant to a player character, so the example is wasted.
What's wrong with Bard/Shadowdancer? A bard doesn't have to be a wandering minstrel, not in the slightest. Just because it's the archetype doesn't mean it's the only way to do it - thinking that is a failure of imagination, not a failure of the system.
Nothing is wrong with Bard/Shadowdancer, but if you give more xp to a bard for exploring, they will explore more. Give more xp to rogues for opening locks, they will open locks.
That's the nature of the classes.
I will agree with you on the Rogues being thieves/lockpickers/whatever, in that they possess other abilities with the current Vives XP system isn't rewarding. This is a flaw in IMPLEMENTATION of the system, rather than the system itself - had the system rewarded the other abilities a Rogue possesses, a PC could avoid picking lockpicking entirely and still tap into the Skill Use XP pool through other skills.
As I see it, having a table of xp gains just limits otherwise viable characters by defining what the character must do to progress. It is just an extra factor to consider when creating a character. I am able to work around the Vives xp system, but I would prefer not to have to.
The XP System doesn't define what the character must do to progress. The XP System rewards characters for using their abilities. The CLASSES define what the abilities of a character are, and thus the CLASSES define what a character must do to progress. Again, want to make a Rogue who focuses on fighting - you chose the wrong class, or you need to multiclass.
Exploration XP is a rather vague aspect of the system and can be bounced back and forth. Instead of focusing on "exploration", or generally: instead of focusing on specific examples and singular or unique cases, try looking at the bigger picture. Your points come across far better when they are based on general facts, rather than particular exceptions. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 23 Nov 2007 11:24 AM |
Are you saying that you want a character to have to use all their abilities in order to progress? This makes sense in terms of realism, it won't do much for game balance.
I will agree with you on the Rogues being thieves/lockpickers/whatever, in that they possess other abilities with the current Vives XP system isn't rewarding. This is a flaw in IMPLEMENTATION of the system, rather than the system itself - had the system rewarded the other abilities a Rogue possesses, a PC could avoid picking lockpicking entirely and still tap into the Skill Use XP pool through other skills.
As I see it, having a table of xp gains just limits otherwise viable characters by defining what the character must do to progress. It is just an extra factor to consider when creating a character. I am able to work around the Vives xp system, but I would prefer not to have to.
The XP System doesn't define what the character must do to progress. The XP System rewards characters for using their abilities. The CLASSES define what the abilities of a character are, and thus the CLASSES define what a character must do to progress. Again, want to make a Rogue who focuses on fighting - you chose the wrong class, or you need to multiclass.
Exploration XP is a rather vague aspect of the system and can be bounced back and forth. Instead of focusing on "exploration", or generally: instead of focusing on specific examples and singular or unique cases, try looking at the bigger picture. Your points come across far better when they are based on general facts, rather than particular exceptions.
Then I would ask you to consider Murphy's law. There will always be some character this system does not work for. There will also always be the potential for problems where the game world isn't correct for the system.
Ed. On second thoughts I can see there is no point in me persisting with this. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 23 Nov 2007 12:19 PM |
Lets just leave aside this XP table at last, shall we? I created this thread to get away from that argument.
What is much more important to me are the different types of XP that come in which opens up the ability to reward many different kinds of activities.
I really like the idea of exploration. I think it is better called Discovery. Anytime your character discovers something new (new to the character) they get rewarded experience. This can be anything from discovering hidden lore, to visiting the top of a mountain.
I think this has been for the most part well implemented in Vives1.
I would like to see it improved. The builders could pay more attention to the easter eggs they put in. Rarely have I discovered special lore or arcane secrets and received a discovery award. That kind of thing would be lots of fun to find. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 23 Nov 2007 12:32 PM |
I can't see anything wrong with this, anyway.
Perhaps some books could have the unique, one use only, power of rewarding xp?
Ed. These books could be plot oriented random treasure. The text in the book points you to a static quest only completable by a character who finds one of the books.
How about 'Lucky Escape' xp? 100% for the Favored Soul class (as it looks like were using this system). When a Character successfully survives a trap or escapes from a powerful monster they gain xp.
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"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 23 Nov 2007 05:43 PM |
I would like to see it improved. The builders could pay more attention to the easter eggs they put in. Rarely have I discovered special lore or arcane secrets and received a discovery award. That kind of thing would be lots of fun to find.
One of the neat things to get xp for would be the tiny transitions that Ficcy put in. ;)
Sure you do get a reward finding the area where it heads into, but just locating those tiny things is a lot of work! :P |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 23 Nov 2007 06:15 PM |
| That is tricky. I think if you had text to advertise the transition, they wouldn't be so secret. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 24 Nov 2007 01:27 AM |
Rarely have I discovered special lore or arcane secrets and received a discovery award. That kind of thing would be lots of fun to find.
I can say now that that isn't going to happen. Anything that important is DM-intervention only (if only because PCs enjoy the attention more and it makes it more special than being the 1000th PC to walk over that trigger and discover the discovery text, ho-hum).
Having said that, one of the first things I did as a builder was put in loads and loads of very personal Easter eggs due to non-critical and non-arcane-lore. Just little things that I'd witnessed PCs doing. Doc McGillicutty's, for instance. And a lot of others I won't mention. It's a lot more fun to put small, personal bits of lore in because it truly puts the "persistent" in "persistent world". If you burn the carpet, it stays burnt. If you carve your name into something somewhere public, it stays carved for all the world to see.
So a lot of "automatic" discoveries which anyone can find if they happen to inspect the right object or walk over the right trigger will be of the small, personal kind — small things PCs do that have a lasting influence. Anything large-scale gets left to PCs who were there to explain (Cedrych might remember getting dragged out to The Great Plains by Miramil to hear the story of the magic sparks), or DMs. It's better that way, because the world comes alive around you to reveal the secret, instead of you finding out some boring way like picking the right branches from an NPC convo.
As for tiny transitions... PD, get IG! We put in a whole bunch of new ones, just for you to find! Muhahahaha.... |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 24 Nov 2007 09:24 AM |
Discovery xp for the brutally tiny transitions...
ok, I'm game for that. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 24 Nov 2007 01:20 PM |
I'm all for discovery xp, but I feel that Vives already did a relatively good job of that. The things that Ficcy mentioned (the burn on the floor of Docs, the carving in the couch in Winky's) plus the xp you get when you talk to people such as the Aristi in the headquarters in the Northern Highway, are good ways of promoting people exploring/discovering, plus they focus on story that get people thinking ("why is the burn there?", etc).
Like to see more of that in Vives2. On Thain, they have several places/people where you learn more about the local gods and (I think) get xp in the process. I think that's a great way of immersing people in a PW that's unique like Vives and not based on Faerun, etc. Having local clerics/nobles/officials provide info like that and getting a small xp reward can be rewarding, especially if it's difficult to get to them
As for small transitions, true, you didn't get any xp for finding small transitions, but you did get xp for getting to the new place, so I always considered that your reward anyway (plus the coolness factor of finding one of those). |
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for...
-- Ernest Hemingway |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 24 Nov 2007 02:26 PM |
Like to see more of that in Vives2. On Thain, they have several places/people where you learn more about the local gods and (I think) get xp in the process. I think that's a great way of immersing people in a PW that's unique like Vives and not based on Faerun, etc. Having local clerics/nobles/officials provide info like that and getting a small xp reward can be rewarding, especially if it's difficult to get to them
I can find a lot of merit in that, beyond the use of discovery experience. Common lore becomes much more immersed into the world when it is expression inside the game, rather than out of it (like the Forums, or Player's Handbook). It's a nice way to put more into discovery XP, and additional information can be given if one passes a skill and/or ability check that normally wouldn't be received. For example: a local ranger tells the PC information about his range and general location, and if a check is made he might reveal some secret or the likes, such as the existence of a strange phenomena deep in the forest that the PC might want to investigate. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 24 Nov 2007 04:30 PM |
I wholeheartedly agree that common lore should be available in game. Discovery XP - and "you furthered the story" type stuff - is an appropriate measurable reward along with the intangible reward of learning the lore itself. Discovering a secret door should give a little zing too though - but be really difficult to find.
Another part of the XP system that I'd like to see better developed in Vives 2 is XP coming from skill use. At the least all traps and locks should give some XP for disarming, and picking. I can see some of the social skills giving situational XP when branches of conversation are unlocked, but aren't there other rogue skills used on adventures that should give XP too? Perhaps some cool uses for picking pockets (sleight of hand). Like palming an item during a search or slipping something off of a table in full view. These are also situational uses of the skill, but it would be good to see these opportunities for rogues and other skill focused characters. Perhaps the survival skill is used like Vives1's wilderness lore widget. And when successful you get XP proportional to how many party members you feed - in a similar manner as Bard Song presently works. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 24 Nov 2007 08:41 PM |
Common lore will be available IG in V2.
The intro areas will introduce you to everything you need to know about gods, factions, geography, etc in an IC way (rather than you having to look it up in an OOC way on the forums or in the OOC Lounge). The best part about V2 is that we started with the lore and then built the world on it. That means that lore is more tightly integrated into absolutely everything, making the world more consistent.
The only reason it isn't that way in V1 is because the lore has grown in an organic way, so it was never implemented (and it's too messy to do so now, especially with the conversation system the way it is).
There are some other really cool things I'd like to implement too — most of them mechanics from The Wanderer (which makes such good use of them that I can hardly believe it's d20).
- You can ask Commoners for random rumours. They are more likely to give them to you if you have a decent CHA or are aligned with them in some way ("Oh, you follow secret god X? I do to! Here's a rumour I heard about a secret shrine that you should look into.").
- NPCs have persistent opinions of you and will like/dislike you according to your actions. Sometimes this gives you access to better prices or better shops if you perform certain tasks for them and they come to like you enough (or they could snob you if they dislike you).
- Skill/ability checks. This was before the "PHB skills" scripts (ie. swimming, climbing, etc) were ever invented, and it was the first implementation of balance etc that I'd seen. I still find it very impressive. The skill checks are excellent, ranging from giving you extra treasure if you have a high Search skill, to allowing you to see through illusions with Spellcraft checks. A lot of the skill checks reward you in ways other than XP.
...And a whole bunch of other things. It's a really good module, very non-linear, and very PW-like in the way it was built. It is the single most impressive use of NWN mechanics I've ever seen in an NWN module, and I've played a lot of them. |
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Re: Vives2 XP System Wishlist
Posted: 27 Nov 2007 11:21 AM |
I also agree that RP XP dispersal should strictly be in the hands of a human agent rather than a script. I wonder however if this should only be the province of DMs. Could players reward other players? Perhaps by identifying others with a widget for good roleplay, and the server tracks these or something? Once a week enough votes from enough players (tracked by CD key) applied to a single character results in some award?
Something I wanted to mention here is that, from what I've seen, roleplaying XP sort of tends to catch up with you. All I mean to say by all this is that different kinds of XP might run on different schedules. Combat and casting XP comes minute-by-minute in small increments, crafting XP comes in a lump at the end of a crafting cycle where you've gotten all your materials together and are ready to complete some items (you might see a couple hundred XP from crafting after 10 hours adventuring/gathering), and roleplaying XP is something that you earn over weeks and months of consistent RP. Its linked to the trajectory of your character's career and what they accomplish IG. I think that is OK and that waiting for it is OK.
Edit: Oh, and The Wanderer mod is really terrific! I didn't finish it, but I was impressed by it anyway. |
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-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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