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Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 06:22 PM |
I'm putting this in this forum because...well....I think it's the best one for it. Feel free to delete and post somewhere else.
I'm basicly posting my thoughts as a player on crime and punishment in Vives, specificly relating the the trial of my PC, Fri'el Skygem.
The trial was really well done. Kudos to all involved, I really enjoyed it. It's good to play on a world with such an efficient justice systems.
Relating to punishments, however, I do have a few thoughts.
Fri'el is having 2 levels taken from her. From her current point to start of lvl 11, that's a fine of over 30k XP. That is, I believe, more XP than most characters on Vives actually have. I know the game isn't about XP but you may see my frustration at having that much "work" taken away. Look at the time it takes to aquire that XP. If I were to hackn'slash it, or craft it, it would be about 40 hours of time. I don't do that, so it will be longer. People get 40 hours community service for crimes in -real life-. So I think that's a bit harsh myself. What would work better for the reasons given would be being told by a DM that for the next RL month or two, my character will not be allowed to level, and if a DM sees her IG at lvl 14, she simply gets bumped back to base 13. That makes IC sense, as far as I am concerned- and doesn't leave me the player feeling that I'm being punished as much as my character.
The real reason I complain about her XP being taken like that, however, is that it really does make no IC sense at all, that I can see. Fri'els spell levels are granted by a goddess. That's what divine spellcasting is. How does a mortal punishment affect that? I agree....if a cleric was in her current situation, she wouldn't advance herself. That's represented by what I said above. Perhaps she'd loose -all- of her spells for a RL month. That works for me too. Hell, mayby she'd fall out of Helkris' favour completely and have to convert to another faith or multiclass out of cleric- I just don't see how loosing 2 levels is IC.
I'd also put forward a couple more opinions on the crime and punishment system. It's great to have one- but when Fri'el acted as she did, I can honestly say I had -no- idea that the punishments would be this severe. If you are going to have punishments like this, it needs to be fairly public stuff IMHO. It seems a bit harsh to me to punish people on a scale they cannot be aware of. Not unfair, but harsh.
XP loss should, IMHO, be a punishment for bad RP, since it punishes the player -more- than the character. If that is your intention, please tell me so. I like the know when I mess up and don't live up to what you'd expect of a player.
The other punishments Fri'el has, however, are great. Really top quality stuff, which will no doubt lead to some good RP in future. I just fail to understand the XP loss, and IMHO there would be better ways to stem Fri'els advancement.
I feel like a powergaming moron for writing this, since the game -isn't- about XP. So sorry for that. Just wanted to say my piece.
I'd also like to apologise for being such a bother lately, and thank all those who put time into the trial, and I'd hope that those who attended the somewhat IRC like event enjoyed it. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 06:32 PM |
well, i dont have much time to comment,
so i will write some stuff and come back tomorrow =p
first thing,
what are the 'other' punishments? just curiousity.
second thing..
I as well find it completely OOC punishment.. I mean... how come comitting crimes reduce someones 'xp'? what is xp for the PCs IG?
another thing, I think gods that punish their followers can and should do that ;)
what do I mean..
well.. from having an IG curse to taking away your ability to cast spells,
(take all your cleric lvls and give you fighter ones) tho that's quite harsh..
but another thing is,, you will prefer xp taken over perm death..
gah i dont have time =/
i'll repost tomorrow
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 06:38 PM |
what are the 'other' punishments? just curiousity.
how about Midor cuts off your hands, and this leaves you with a perm -4 Dex score.
or a leg is removed, so your movement rate is now at 50%, and -4 Dex too (since it's hard to dodge with a gimp).
isn't this how people would be punished in those times? the only issue is that given the NWN mechanics, it's hard to make these sorts of things work and actually affect the character IG.
what about a perma-curse from the good god Midor? i'm sure those Midor priests can cook up something to afflict those evil scourge that'd taint the good city!
all of these can be done. again, as i like to say, it's just code. usually the limiting factors are your imagination or my time ;)
-Q |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 06:56 PM |
| It' s been suggested that an appropriate punishment would be the loss of ability to summon creatures. Given the nature of the offense, it seems like a reasonable compromise, and an IC punishment. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 06:59 PM |
I gotta admit, the trials were fun, but it got lengthy. And it was frustrating when I had to bail out when it -DID- get to be my turn at the stand. However, I think you got off fairly easy. I shudder to think what they're gonna do to Hans when it's -his- turn as defendant. In the meantime, it's gonna be a couple, or a few weeks untill he even get's tried. That means a level or two he can't even get, and there is the -slightest- possibility he'll be found innocent :P
So, 2 levels cut off the top. Harsh, effective... Overkill. I think we should just make me the supreme ruler of the universe and all the problems of the world will be gone. So, vote for me for supreme ruler of the universe! (And have mercy on Hans) |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 07:06 PM |
| What I can't figure out is when you guys had time for a trial at all, let alone a lengthy one. As best as I can tell the server has spent the entire afternoon either crashing, loading, or down, and it's still doing that. *very confused look* |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 07:10 PM |
| slink they improvised and used irc |
"...Another day passes and I slip further from reality..." |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 07:16 PM |
| Ah, they role-played that they were playing a role-playing game. I see. *amused look* |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 07:29 PM |
| What, might I ask is the matter with that? Dare I say there are many groups who play pnp on line should they be shuned for so? I say all the power to them at least they have some imagination and some creativty... but your right it is amuseing isnt? A shame you wernt around to part take in it though something tell's me you wouldnt have been interested or appreciated the attempt by your remark. |
"...Another day passes and I slip further from reality..." |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 07:39 PM |
What, might I ask is the matter with that? Dare I say there are many groups who play pnp on line should they be shuned for so? I say all the power to them at least they have some imagination and some creativty... but your right it is amuseing isnt? A shame you wernt around to part take in it though something tell's me you wouldnt have been interested or appreciated the attempt by your remark.
Ah, Alenuska, ever IC.
I don't use IRC, or participate in any chats on any subject, so you are correct that I would not have come even had I known. IG Loli had chosen not to attend for a variety of reasons which make sense to her and the people who know her. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 07:50 PM |
| I was about to ask you the same thing slink if you ever rp. Though you do seem to constantly wish to start a fire, I just hope you can also doze it if it gets out of controll as well dont start somthing you cant finish. Besides I thought by now you would have grown up and got over the previous issues apprently not and heh I thought women were more mature then men. |
"...Another day passes and I slip further from reality..." |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 08:09 PM |
| Let's get back on the topic and quit flaming one another please. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 08:13 PM |
| Alen...Slink...don't make me turn this car around, cuz I'll do it! |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 11:24 PM |
I guess I am going to Rock the Boat
I think some are missing the point here.
Vives Is more than how much Xp you have or who has the coolest item.
From what I understand Vives is NWN trying to be as close to PNP as possible. To be Honest How often do Characters make it to higher levels in pnp. I think were real lucky Characters don't get Permed here that often and the death/Life Ratio is higher in vives than pnp. 2 levels is a lot easier than than being Permed I think you were real lucky with that verdict. Who really cares about XP we are all here to RP. The last Server I was on was Static Level So once you hit 10th that was it and XP wasn't a factor at all it was all about RP. Vives is different and I understand that but I mean if you break it all down isn't really about having fun with a good group of players. Maybe I am different but I don't log on looking to see how much Xp I can gain in that day but what can I do to make this fun. |
You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.
~Robin Williams
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 19 Oct 2003 11:43 PM |
| It is all about fun exactly .. and when things happen that make it less fun. it doesnt have that gleam it once did . kinda like gettin to the bottom of the cracker jack box and finding someone skimped ya on the secret toy surprise. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 20 Oct 2003 02:30 AM |
Couple of coments from people I'll reply to before I hurry off to school:
"Loose the ability to summon creatures"
Great idea. Leads to RP and difficulty for my character, -and- is an IC consequence.
"Loose all cleric levels and replace with fighter ones"
Great idea. Harsh, major punishment for Fri'el, leads to serious RP since she is a fallen cleric- and has the added benefeit of not wasting the time I put in to -get-those levels in the first place.
And I think why I complain is what Gasher said. The game isn't about XP, but when you put time into your character, and possibly -get- to a high level on a RP world, it's fairly nightmarish to have that time taken away. That's why I myself would prefer possibly harsher punishments for Fri'el, but which don't punish me, the player, to such an extent.
I really like the two ideas put forward above, and the to punishments Fri'el has already recieved. IMHO, those are the sort of punishments which should exist in an IC justice system. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 20 Oct 2003 03:54 AM |
Just a few general remarks:
Even with punishments we need to be realistic. An ingame judge can not strip a character from certain levels or abilities that easily (so I agree with Dens to a certain extent). That more reeks of direct divine intervention. Sorry to burst the bubble but I do not think Midoran comes down from his cloud and immortal business to execute special punishments that very often.
Furthermore:
A punishment should be strictly to the point, making sense for the crimes committed. If we start to be lenient on punishments, well, that kinda takes the 'dangerous' part out of the whole thing. It's pretty simple, be you chaotic Evil, Lawful Good or True Neutral. If you start haressing people ingame through Rp (even with consent), murder folk, steal, or commit any other sort of crime which can be interpreted as a vile act against residents of a certain inhabited area. Do not be surprised to find yourself hunted down by these residents.
Once caught your fate is in the hands of the DM's and some CPC's. So think to yourself before you do something, if you are prepared for that ;). So yes, as far as I am concerned you got off relatively easy, Barnas. Normally a criminal like that is either locked away for a VERY long time, hanged, maimed or generally degraded to a smoking heap of smoldering pieces of flesh. So instead of taking the xp we could toss Fri'el in Jail for 30 years. Or maybe 50. That will cost you even more Xp if you are that concerned with it.
Finally:
I totally agree with Boffo. If you are that worried about xp, act different ingame. Do not openly taunt people, do not commit crimes, just kill monsters and craft items, and sometimes greet people. Boring? Yes, but that way you will elude the IC reaction causes IC consequence loop. Unfortunately that loop is what vives is all about =).
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 20 Oct 2003 05:49 AM |
Rul:
I -am- worried about XP. It's not the reason I play. If I wanted to get a nice lvl bada55 character and run about with the swordof 1377ne55+99999999999999, I wouldn't come and ask to play on a server like Vives.
However- The things I take issue with is this: XP loss punishes me the player more than Fri'el the character. As I said, were I to try and powergame the ammount of XP you propose my character loosing, it would take in the region of 40 hours, assuming a solid 800XP per hour. Thus it could perhaps take even longer. As I do -not- powergame to get XP (However viciously I may defend that which has been aquired :P), it would take even longer to reagin Fri'els former status. So say 40/50 hours of time. 40/50 hours community service is a punishment in the real world. I believe you get it for things like assault, though I will have to check. Perhaps it's just for drunk and disorderly. Either way, I digress. It's a fairly serious hit on me, the player.
My main complaint, however, is that IMHO it is totally OOC -and- I was given no warning as to it being a possible punishment for that act. Ultimately, Fri'el has done very few things which would be considered unnaceptable to the Midorans IG, and has done a vast number of "good" deeds. I'll save my ranting and pointless raving on how unfair I think that is for a wall a bit later on -I'm sure you all have better things to do than to read that.
I would much rather accept a harsher IC punishment for Fri'el, which doesn't resort to punishing me as much. Give her a RL month in jail. That's a serious punishment, IMHO. I can roll up another PC, play them, enjoy playing them ETC, and I don't have to take an OOC XP hit on Fri'el.
If you're looking to stem her growth as a PC, as I said, I think it would be more IC and better to do something along the lines of telling me that she cannpt go beyond lvl 13 for X ammount of time, and DM enforcing that. That stops me gaining XP, but doesn't leave me feeling shafted because I lost XP.
If you're trying to get across that she's fallen out of favour with helkris, either do what Dens said, or tell me that she isn't allowed to cast spells. Both of those are better IC consequences than the good-old take XP approach.
Hell, I'd even say that I'd prefer to have no spells for a month while Fri'el is converted to become a priestess of Midor. That would be wicked to RP, actually. If I had a vote (And as a player, I'm not sure if I do), I'd say that that's how I'd prefer it to be run. She isn't allowed to level for a month, she can't cast any spells for a month, she looses all of her material assets (-ALL- of them), and begins training as a priestess of Midoran. After a month, she gains a level of spells every 4 days, until after about 2 months in total she is status quo ante levelwise, as a priestess of Midoran, with a whole load of good RP along the way. And the added benefit, as far as I'm concerned, is that she's been punished harshly IC (The item strip, loss of spells, and slow conversion- not to mention restraining order and Walin following), she's had her growth stemmed (There's the punishment for me, as it were). But out if it comes decent RP, and I don't feel like I'm getting shafted.
As I hope you can see, I know that actions have consequences. What I propose above would be my prefered option instead of level loss, but as I well know, the DMs word is final. I'd just hope that something like I mentioned above would happen rather than the slightly silly OOC XP loss.
-Barnas |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 20 Oct 2003 06:43 AM |
Stripping someone from a certain ability can be considered the same OOC reasoning as taking a few levels. As I see it, they wished to spare you MONTHS of confinement in a prison, since that is harsh indeed on a PC, not much to do there normally then to sit around.
In a way it is good you feel 'shafted' by the punishment, gets the nature of the message across. Forbidding someone to level for a month or to not casts spells for a month... how the heck are you going to enforce that ingame without locking someone up? I really do not see why a Court will decide for a criminal she can not cast a spell for a long time. That to me sounds ICly and OOCly strange, unrealistic and a lot of effort required by other people to enforce the punishment. Then others get punished ;). At least I do not see the beneficial value for the community if Fri'el was not to cast spells for a set amount of time, other then it makes it hard for her to get xp. Xp is not something that troubles the residents of Midor. They rather see a good hanging, or a public display where they can taunt and scold a criminal. Food and games!
As for your priestess plan, Rom already assigned you a community service, a different one, but still a community service. And if you disagree with the levelling, why don't you write an OOC and IC appeal? Justice system allow appeals, so I dont see why we shouldn't. Icly you can ask to plead your case again feeling the measure of your sentence isn't right. OOCly you can argue why not since you feel the xp loss is based on an OOC measure.
To conclude... taking xp/levels, is the most effective and direct method to lessen someone's power. In that light that is a good deal for the community which suffered under the committed crimes, as the criminal suffers a heartfelt personal loss. Taking levels hinders your amount of spells, type of spells and possibly other abilities. In essence it achieves exactly what you are proposing, reflecting that in the status of your character. ICly she abused her power, ICly that power is diminished by those who judged her crimes. OOCly that is achieved through the game mechanics, by stripping levels. So in a way it is not entirely an OOC decision.
Rul
P.S. Most DM's above have offered their PERSONAL opinions. So I do not think it is very constructive or nice for that matter to state: that your vote as a player or your opinion will not matter. If our 'voice' is that final and we really do not want to discuss anything at all, you would have been banned by now ;).
Also it was not a DM's call. We arent hugging all the power. The person who decided on the sentence, unsurprisingly is the same person who ICly was the judge in the trial. As it should be. Rom's CPC is the authority in that department, it was his call. People may agree/disagree, still his call. Agreement, disagreement offers also nice Rp hookups. |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 20 Oct 2003 07:46 AM |
Forbidding someone to level for a month or to not casts spells for a month... how the heck are you going to enforce that ingame without locking someone up?
by trusting the player?
and if the player -does- lvl.. punish him in ooc way he wont forget? =p (*cough* banning might do =p) i dont say anything about preventing someone from gaining xp.. but you -can- tells someone -not- to press the lvl up button..
I really do not see why a Court will decide for a criminal she can not cast a spell for a long time. That to me sounds ICly and OOCly strange, unrealistic and a lot of effort required by other people to enforce the punishment. Then others get punished ;)
well.. the whole point of this 'punishment' IMO (I think i brought this up but maybe i am wrong) is - first, for clerics only. second - the idea, is that the god/goddes, have taken the ability to cast spells from the follower.. actually i find it pretty ICish and good punishment.. but as said somewhere above.. the gods wont come down or just 'cancel' the follower's ability to cast spells..
this is only in special/specific events/ocasions. i wasnt talking about this specific event, but i was talking about penalties generally..
. At least I do not see the beneficial value for the community if Fri'el was not to cast spells for a set amount of time, other then it makes it hard for her to get xp
again, i dont think that is the point... i think the grace of the god/goddes might be removed.. well.. basicly the last lines i wrote ;)
Xp is not something that troubles the residents of Midor. They rather see a good hanging, or a public display where they can taunt and scold a criminal. Food and games!
nothing to add.. that's why i am againt xp penalties for IC crimes..
To conclude... taking xp/levels, is the most effective and direct method to lessen someone's power.
agreed... by for ooc 'crimes'.. not for IC crimes.. or maybe , again.. specific events.. like when being hit by a divine being or something..
In that light that is a good deal for the community which suffered under the committed crimes, as the criminal suffers a heartfelt personal loss. Taking levels hinders your amount of spells, type of spells and possibly other abilities.
hmm.. as you said "Xp is not something that troubles the residents of Midor. They rather see a good hanging, or a public display where they can taunt and scold a criminal. Food and games!"
Also it was not a DM's call. We arent hugging all the power. The person who decided on the sentence, unsurprisingly is the same person who ICly was the judge in the trial. As it should be. Rom's CPC is the authority in that department, it was his call. People may agree/disagree, still his call. Agreement, disagreement offers also nice Rp hookups.
ok.. so what you are saying is that Rom decided to take the xp? *is confused* but i guess it isn't..
and about this point..
give me one good explenation for how the justice system of midor took xp/power from a char.. and i might agree with the xp penalty..
but IMO this is an ooc punishment for IC crime.. this is completely ooc and unrealistic crime for the char..
Dens - gah!!!! lunch is ready! i'll keep writing later =p |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 20 Oct 2003 08:06 AM |
Rul- IMHO, it is -never- a good idea that a PLAYER should feel shafted because of a punishement given to their character. This is all the more true on a server which &iquote "Allows and encourages all alignments".
How do you know I'd follow a punishment? Because I say I would. On KB I myself gave my cleric no spells, and stuck to the punishment.
I'm just going to agree with Dens. This punishment hits me, the player, more than my character. I don't know how good a RPer I am. I know that I don't powergame. However, I thought this server rewarded RP? I stayed IC. Now I'm getting a huge XP hit with no reward? That's wonderful. Absolutely marvelous.
A punishment for an IC crime should punish the CHARACTER not the PLAYER. The character should feel shafted, the player shouldn't feel such.
The court would not be deciding that Fri'el would not be able to cast spells. The court would force her to take an atonement, become LG, thus loosing access to Helkris' spells. She would then be trained as a priestess of Midoran to attone for her wrongs. That's what I was proposing. I think that was a misunderstanding. The punishment would be the attonement- the loss of spells the result of said attonement.
I will not argue with a DMs decision. But, as a player, I find the notion that for IC actions I am going to have XP stripped from my character for staying IC with -no- prior warning a serious discouragement for playing on the server.
However, as an OOC appeal goes, this is my appeal. Fri'el will not appeal IG because it's not IC for her to do so, however displeased I am with her punishement. Had it been death, I wouldn't appeal.
I'm appealing against the XP loss. I am willing to accept a measure such as the one I described, but would strongly prefer not to have Fri'el takes an XP hit. That really takes the spark out of playing a character, to have to regain levels. For her to work towards regaining her spells from Midoran, yes. Her wealth, yes. Her skills? It's OOC, it's boring for me, and no-one gets anything from it.
Or, yes, you can hang her- I'd prefer that to a stupid OOC XP hit. I myself would rather play a new PC than the same PC again. If that's what you'd prefer, I'd like to ask to play a Paladin, however that's done. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 20 Oct 2003 08:30 AM |
ok i got some time now, before my guitar lesson.. lol
I'm just going to agree with Dens.
you should always do that! ;)
However, I thought this server rewarded RP? I stayed IC. Now I'm getting a huge XP hit with no reward? -some sercastic stuff-
i pretty agree to that.. not saying chars that got caught and had a trial should get xp rewards (tho it depends on the way the player plays i guess) but i think they shouldnt get xp penalty.. cuz again.. that shaft/punish the player and not the char..
IMO i prefer knowing that if my char got caught and was convicted, and play it after the IC punishments (like cutting a hand.. or so) or not playing it due to perm death - over playing a char that it's xp was taken.. i mean.. if i did something wrong ooc i'll understand it.. but the time i spent on a char, doesnt matter if i walked around to kill stuff or walked around and talk to others..
having xp penalty is an offensive (well.. got no other words.. maybe this is too harsh tho) troward the player and not the char..
i will concern the other posts in this thread in my next posts...
another point i saw here..
The court would force her to take an atonement, become LG, thus loosing access to Helkris' spells.
first - the alignment changing..
I both as DM and player, see alignment changing as a really really rare mod of a char..
I dont mean the +- 1 or 2 to the alignment.. but i am tlaking about chaning someone from Cx to Lx or from good to evil or something like that..
unlese some divine power is used.. these kind of things shouldnt happen (again on specific times they should..)
like, i can agree to the fact Fri'el become a 'better' person after being in prison.. or looking into herself or something.. but having her alignment change cuz a judge told so?!
i mean.. what the heck?! if this could happen then our RL world was a really ncie place.. =p
again - divine, arcane,magical/w/e powers can change alignment.. tragic events etc. can change alignment..
but cuz someone told her so?!
maybe she can act as a better person but still be the old Fri'el.. that something that can happen..
about the second part.. that should be played with a DM controlling Helkris.. maybe she still thinks Fri'el is a worthy follower..
and also.. why would Midoran accept her as a cleric? why would the knights/clerics accept her to their lines?
Dens - guitar lesson =p |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 20 Oct 2003 10:47 AM |
The atonement:
Atonement
Abjuratoion
Level: Clr, 5 Crd 5
Components: V,S, M, F, DF, XP
Casting Time: 1 Hour
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: Instantanious
Save: Harmless
Spell Resistance: Tes
Allows clerics ETC to regain spells lost vias sins, paladins to become paladins again after unwittingly sinning ETC. The part which would be relevent to a Midoran converting Fri'el to LG and allowing her to seek to become one of his followers:
Redemption or Temptation:
You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change it's alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether to retain its orignal alingment or aquieses to your offer and changes to the caster's alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magic can force the sunject to take advantage of the offer if it is unwilling to abandon it's old alignment. The spell does not work on outsiders or any creature unwilling to change it's alingment natrually.
Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player (for PCs) or DM (For NPCs). The use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change her alignemnt drasticly, permantantly, and definitively.
Material component: Burning Inscence
Focus: Divine artifact worth at least 500GP
XP cost: If the creature is atoning for a sin to regain spells due to a willing act, the spell has a cost of 500XP.
PHB P177
That's the spell which a Midoran would be able to cast on the willing Fri'el, who would willingly become a priestess of Midoran to attone for what she did. That spell would allow her to become LG- her actions would be DM judged as to whether she ever recieved spells from Midoran, after a month. I still believe that that would be the best way to deal with her. She pays 10000 GP a week to the Midoran authorities. She obeys the other punishments. She looses all her possesions (ALL :P), she looses all spells. If you can't trust me to play without spells, then well. If you said "Fri'el has been put out of Helkris favour as a result of her atonement, and as a result cannot cast her divine spells or use any cleric abilites", I wouldn't have her do so. After a month, DMs judge as to whether she has been an utmost follower of Midoran during that time, and if she has, she regains her spell levels over a RL month.
That avoids the OOC XP hit, appeases the mob...perhaps 2 RL days in the stocks as well? Keeps me as the player happy (Perhaps least important), and leads to some RP for everyone as they see Fri'el being good and facing up to what she did.
In response to Dens' comment, I myself do find the XP hit slightly offensive. It gives the impression that you don't think I'm doing a good job of RPing.
I suppose the final point of my appeal against the XP hit is this: The XP hit will take the spark out of playing Fri'el for me. The things I've proposed are harsh on her, the character, but not on me. I can live with her wealth going, her religeon and alignment change, not playing her for 2-3 days while she's in the stocks, 2 months to get her back status quo ante- I think that's a fair bit of punishment myself. I'd prefer to see punishement like that. The XP hit is OOC, and asofar as I am concerned a comment on my play more than the actions of my PC.
If you insist on an XP hit for Fri'el, and as DMs and admins you are entirely within your rights to do so, then don't bother. Just say she got sentanced to death- as I get the impression you wanted to do, and I'll roll up a new PC. I don't mind playing low leveled PCs. Playing PCs through levels again annoys me- and it isn't something I'll do without kicking and screaming as I am now- thought hopefully making at least some sense while I do it.
Hope you enjoyed your guitar lesson Dens- you play acoustic or electric? I used to play acoustic, but I sucked :P
Anyway, sorry to be a bother kicking and screaming like this. However, I consider the XP hit on Fri'el unfair and OOC and am proposing things which would allow the DMs and myself to reach a mutually acceptable solution regarding Fri'els fate. As I said, if we cannot, then I'm willing to forget the whole debate, have her sentanced to death and start over with a new PC.
-Sorry to be such a bother, but some things I feel the need to speak out over. I hope that I havn't annoyed or offended anyone with these posts, and if I have, I apologise.
-Barnas |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 20 Oct 2003 10:52 AM |
this is getting lengthy...
But anyways, from a personal point of view, stripping levels/xp as a punishment, I have my doubts about that as I made clear in my post. In the last one I tried to understand why it still might be a way to extract IC punishment, since it IS more PRACTICAL and EASIER to execute then restraining someone with the order they are not to do this or that for a whole month. You elude a very annoying problem by simply taking away the thing you do not want them to use. That way we do not have to worry about trust either, not saying I don't trust you Barnas to not cast a spell for a month or a year, just that I am positive sooner or later that is going to backfire. Making it necessary for the DM's to keep tabs on people, to check if they really keep their end of the bargain. If that can be avoided, yes please.
Dens, of course it is Romulus' call to decide on the punishment. I mean ICly we gave him a CPC, that guy is a judge, it is only logical we express more trust in allowing him to play his part. He might have sought advice with Merum who was the prosecutor and Phoenix as the defendant's spokesperson, but I dont know. I know at least there was no elaborate DM meeting forehand to decide how to punish Fri'el. I would not want it otherwise as it went either.
And I strongly feel you have to wait for Merum, Rom and Phoenix's opinion about this. They were closest involved, I want to see their arguments. That would give a good impression if indeed the xp penalty needs to be revised into something else. So yes, I dont know what drives them, at least I try to think what could be the reason behind the decision.
The trouble with NWN is you always deal with game mechanics, it is virtually impossible to do something and being able to say it is COMPLETELY devoid of any OOC influence. Same goes for that suggestion to become Lawful Good and be a follower of Midoran, as Dens said, that's as 'OOC' as taking the levels. Unless you make it a gradual process, where the person is slowly changed. But even then, Dens has another valid point, I do not see why the Midorans want to act as a babysitter and try to forcefully change Fri'els habits. There needs to be a lot of supportive evidence to convince them to even consider such a decision.
Also, it must not become a rule (not that I wish to imply an attempt was made, just uttering a warning) that the criminals themselves get to decide what their punishment will be in such detail. I still feel the part where Fri'el was assigned to Walin was quite a clever decision.
Looking forward to see the opinion and arguments of Judge Augustos. *calls for Romulus*
Take it away, judge! |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: Punishments, Trials, ETC
Posted: 20 Oct 2003 11:37 AM |
I'll agree that it's up to the judge CPC, and so I'll respect that.
I'll also assume that you typed that before you saw the "How Fri'el to LG -is- a possible IC action via atonement" thing. One more thing on that- read her philospophy. She's fairly obviously good at heart now. That's a fairly sudden, but then gradual and thought through change towards good. You want supportive evidence that Fri'els good? I believe there's 12000 words of it sitting on the forums :P
Why would they want her as a follower? Because that's what churches want..more followers. And, asofar as I am concerned, a lvl 13 cleric is a fairly handy follower to snatch up.
Anyway, I'll wait for the opinions of those who preside over this case now.
And I'm serious, what do I do if I want to play a Paladin? |
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