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((*** SPOILERS ***)) Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 04:56 PM |
To whoever designed the Midor crypts:
I've been working full time toward a Game Art and Design bachelor degree for a little over a year and a half now. The cirriculum focuses on the creation of games, from brainstorming to level design to character concepts to 3D modeling and animation. It's fairly intense, very in depth, and a good portion of the training involves playing, dissecting and critiquing games currently on the market.
The Midor crypts are an example of really terrible level design. While the spawns themselves are great, nicely spread out and manageable according to the level of player for which they are intended, my focus is primarily on that gate opening to the last main room on the top level.
Obscurity is not clever. If a level requires metagaming and outside information in order to complete the level, then it is a bad level. Locking a player into a room of hostiles and then forcing them into a state of panic while they attempt to read the designers mind is not realistic nor is it fun. A good level should be challenging, yes, but it needs to be solvable as a self-contained experience.
No where else in the game, at that level of play, is there a magic door to even give a player the idea that such a thing even exists. No where in the level is there anything to even suggest that the gate uses a spoken word to open from the inside. No where on the level, nothing the old man by the cart says, even intimates that it's necessary to speak a word to open the gate and least of all what the word is.
A good game is rewarding. It *wants* the player to win. Good game design should be based around the player's success and fun factor, not around trying to be crafty and thwarting of the player's efforts. Whoever built this level probably thinks it's obvious, but that's what all game builders think. Why? Because it's your idea. Of course *you* know what it takes to complete the level.
There's a statue or some [spoilers deleted by moderator] That's it. This isn't a clue, it's a meaningless feature. This isn't even a matter of FOIG. The only reason anyone knows how to open the gate is because they get someone who knows because someone told them and so forth, back into history. This alone breaks the mold of realism, forcing metagaming, not partying.
I didn't die, because the spawning rate was long enough to allow me to become angry and send a PM to another player begging for a clue and for help. I *had* been in there before, months ago, and the leader of the party new the trick (because someone once told her) but I had forgotten in the meantime. I can only imagine some brave player going in with less undead-oriented gear, down to their last few healing kits or potions, screaming in frustration and cursing the builders name as the next wave of uber-zombies spawns and proceeds to kill that player.
And their death would not be the player's fault. It would be the builders.
I consider myself a fairly intelligent person. I wouldn't make a private eye, and my name isn't Sherlock Holmes, but I represent the basic gamer for these PW worlds. If I couldn't figure it out, then chances are that no one could. Tragedy? Yeah. That's what that level is: a real tragedy.
On a side note, this same thing goes for the basement of the haunted house in Port Royal, where a person is required to [spoilers deleted by moderator] in order to find a secret room that gives up a [spoilers deleted by moderator]. Again, very, very bad level design. What player would ever think to [spoilers deleted by moderator]? That's the equivalent of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It's not a practice that makes any sense in this game. There's no intimation that there is a secret room, and the back room with all the servant's clothing seems a much more plausible place for a player to discover some clue. The fact that the dressers give up any items - even if they are just maid and butler uniforms - leaves this impression. Again, if someone has to go out of the bounds of the quest, and out of the bounds of the level, in order to find the solution - especially when that quest breaks a standard practice of the game play - then the quest/level needs a redesign.
Editing addition:
Apparently, other people can figure this out without help. I don't see how. I've played through puzzle games before and won them. I guess I'm dumber than I thought. |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 05:18 PM |
Thanks for posting this Marlena as I have had some similar thoughts on this.
I do want to point out however that I did solve the Midor Crypts puzzle on my own. It is a very odd one though. [spoilers deleted by moderator] Nevertheless once while fighting off hordes of zombies Aiken, my ranger, found the text and the answer just came to me. He ran for it, spoke the word, and didn't come back until he had a few quivers full of lifesong arrows.
The Haunted House secret door. Yes that is frigging odd. It took me forever to figure out what I was supposed to do. And I had some help. My problem was that someone else had already [spoilers deleted by moderator] In the meantime I walked slowly about the room with the search toggle on and didn't find anything. Robber Baron pulled Zubeida aside and pointed out the "blue spot" on the floor.
Another quest that puzzled me forever was Ellea's ring. I figured that she had to be in Midor. I turned that town upside down, went back to the old brothel and questioned everyone, had a couple tangles with the body guard there. I got some cryptic answers, but nothing solid. I gave up on it. Then I showed up one random day at [spoilers deleted by moderator] and managed to notice the new conversation option. From then on it was smooth sailing. But having never found the lead that was supposed to send me to [spoilers deleted by moderator] , the whole quest seemed disjointed to me. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 05:30 PM |
All I saw in the Midor crypts was [spoilers deleted by moderator] or something to that effect. I didn't see [spoilers deleted by moderator] or anything even resembling a clue. Glad someone gets it.
My point remains, though likely not in this particular context.
Another edit: Yeah, I see it now that someone's pointed it out to me. All I saw was a j[spoilers deleted by moderator] . After having gone through several other quests that, similarly, didn't seem to have any solvable or understandable progression (that lady in Port Royal looking for her husband.... I guess, someday, if I keep her in mind I'll accidentally stumble upon the next part of the story? I'm assuming so...) I think I'm just paranoid about a lot of the cryptic things I come across. |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 05:51 PM |
There are still a lot of unfinished quests in game. Some have been like that for quite some time. I think the lady waiting for news about her husband is also one of those. I've never stumbled upon anyone even remotely associated with this quest.
As to solving the riddle of the Midor crypts... I came upon the answer in an entirely different way. I didn't even know about that coded message until a week or two ago. But the way I came up with the answer was via OOC knowledge and what was written in the status windows. So not exactly something that can be called straightforward. ^_^ |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 06:51 PM |
In the corner of the haunted house with the boxes is a on-approach description that basically tells you what you need to know.
Great story, I've had good times in the Midor Crypt. First time I was there my character was going frantic, and a DM happened by and saved me with a random npc. A dwarf, I remember, doing some crypt looting, and then subsequently died to the horde of zombies.
The next time I was there was with Arcane... (No, I didn't die that time). He showed me around, and [spoilers deleted by moderator] . With that done he let my character do what he does best - decypher what it was - I'm pretty sure I was Bereil at the time, so I figured it out pretty quickly. Relatively quick, at least. I think. Took a couple minutes.
dang, I miss adventuring with that guy.
Have fun! |
CHOO CHOO!
- - - - - -
Bereil Yadashem.
Markus Mortriety, Herald of Novus Aristi. |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 07:33 PM |
I want to say something here which is tantamount to sacrilege to many role players and please don’t take offence as none of my comments are directed at any of you guys; they are just my own thoughts about a topic I have seen discussed and argued over a zillion times elsewhere.
‘I think a lot of player arguments about OOC information regarding AREAS on server worlds are quite anal’.
Let me explain what I mean…
As a world builder myself; I argued on our server for permanent death with no chance for respawn [ie. only resurrection by a fellow player]. This would naturally entail [for the high risk takers amongst us] them having quite a few PC’s.
But I built areas for easy – medium - hard – lethal - and special areas which were pure ‘bang your dead for trying to solo a known BAD place’ where big nasty’s were bound to be. By this I mean areas called such names as ‘The Tower of the Red Dragon of Certain Death’.
This was so you could traverse the world the easy way or the hard way depending on your mood, disposition, time availability, and party size. My aim was always to facilitate Players 'role play' and not my own Ego as the builder slash DM.
I never worried that people would know about in game issues or areas because another player or themselves might have taken a previous character down to an area beforehand and thus might know what was coming. I always have thought that ‘Role Players’ can get themselves too wrapped up in anal arguments about ‘oh that’s ooc knowledge’ etc etc.
The idea to my mind as builder and DM was first and foremost ‘is it fun – is it challenging – and is it fun’?
If you ask Chief he will tell you that you could cross our server from end to end on the surface of the world and still have only seen 1800 areas out of over 2600 plus areas of the module. And those were areas I called ‘walk in areas’ [i.e. areas you could simply walk to on foot]. Any Area that was lethal or above you had to work hard to get to and would know long beforehand that continuing SOLO would result in your certain death [which as I was arguing for Perma Death simply would not be worth your risk].
There was always [save for a few very select areas] multiple ways to traverse from A to B and multiple ways to resolve a situation.
It was [I felt] incumbent upon me as the Builder to make the module challenging – beautiful – and fun. I never once gave any thoughts to issues that a player who may have another character who has passed a certain way before through the module would not use that certain knowledge again with a different character of his or hers, or might get the DATA ooc in some other way.
If your mind is set upon what I considered Anal issues such as ‘I cant know about this Area as this Player Character has never been this way before’ then frankly I considered such people as to be missing the whole point of RP.
Also I would have felt that I as the Builder and DM would be failing in my duty to build and provide a world which was designed to create both high and low Drama on a regular basis for a committed player base.
It is incumbent upon players to Drive RP it is incumbent upon Builders and DM’s to Create the World and while you will never please all of the players all of the time, giving the player base leeway to use their hard earned data about the world with different characters is a small price to pay for making things fun, keeping things challenging is the Builders duty not the players.
So in final analysis I disagree with the initial comments about the gate, it’s quite a fun idea and the monsters are not dangerous enough to seriously threaten a player who has managed to get in and wipe out the bad guys [and who probably already knows what’s coming anyhow] and if you happen to learn how to defeat the gate from another player I do not think it is necessarily a bad thing as it’s a RP based server world not a Power Module [of course the Vives DM’s may take a different view this is only my personal opinion].
If I had one minor complaint to make about quests it would be that ‘I wish the old broken ones could be fixed - and that new quest’s are not put in to the game until they can be taken to there completion. |
Love 'n' light
Wings |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 07:35 PM |
| please avoid posting spoilers. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 07:53 PM |
*scratches head*
I guess I cannot agree with you there Marlena.
I remember when I first found The Midor Crypt (just after it had been altered). I thought it was exciting. Here I was without an obvious means of escape.
OOC, I knew there had to be a solution, so OOC all I had to do was find something out of the ordinary while fighting off hordes. How India Jones was that? It didn't take me long, but it did have me on edge while I was searching for the clue. (and I am crap at puzzles, but when I saw the message I instantly was able to read what was written)
After becoming a builder I saw no reason to want to change it and, in fact, enjoyed ambushing players there with the "Night of the Living Dead" scenario (alas, they keep escaping on me, but I might get a group yet!).
As for Ellea, I found out by exploring the world, in depth, and making notes as I went along. Why should someone who has disappeared be easy to find? If you need clues to a puzzle, why not as IG "I am looking for..."
I forget how I solved the haunted house puzzle, but I don't recall having any trouble with it. I guess different people find different challenges to be more or less difficult than others.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 10:00 PM |
Here is an uninteresting screen of Salt waiting by that gate.
I've never taken any of my PCs down into those crypts, because I never explored the matter of that gate any further. Salt doesn't organize parties to go raiding crypts. Plenty of world to see topside!
*runs off to join the devoured* |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 11:19 PM |
| ((Bah - post deleted in its entirety. I had assumed the spoiler warning at the front was enough. I doubt that most people will lose much from not ever seeing the remaining nuggets of wisdom. I guess that's why I generally avoid OOC threads.)) |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 15 Oct 2006 11:51 PM |
Could we please stop posting spoilers? Not everyone likes to have their surprises revealed prematurely
Thank you.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 16 Oct 2006 12:47 AM |
Can a moderator maybe alter the first post to have a spoiler space at the beginning?
For those people who -would- like to keep it a mystery
[edit] Of course, that doesn't really help for all of us people who come to this thread by clicking on the recent posts link at the bottom of the home page. So then, maybe put it in the subject.
??? |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 16 Oct 2006 01:02 AM |
Exciting? I suppose it was. I don't know. A t the time that I went in and got myself stuck, I was fresh off of two very aggrivatingly STUPID deaths, having lost almost all my money and three weeks worth of XP. I was not in the mood to be suddenlys tuck in a room with a spawn that required me to use up a good portion of my spells to overcome, especially knowing I was going to have to fight my way back out again.
Wings, I can't agree with you. Perma death without warning is a *huge* frustration and it doesn't encourage people to be careful so much as it encourages them to go to another server where they could explore and face danger without the risk of losing everything.
It's a game, afterall. It's not supposed to be like life, except maybe on some metaphoric level of abstraction. Some people find it exciting and marvelous to risk everything on an unknown gamble. There are people in the world that happily go off on safari or climbing tall, dangerous mountains or join foreign armies because ... I guess they have a death wish. I don't find life at the knife's edge, where Death is hovering over me, waiting for me to fall prey to my lack of skill. I'm a cautious person, and I try not to go anywhere without either a good idea of what I'm getting into or, at the least, equipping myself against all the possibilities of danger I can think of (as much as I can). I know I'm going to get into situations that are difficult for me to handle, as it is.
I realize my post comes off harsh. I know there's someone out there who worked very hard to make the crypts a great place to play and a rewarding experience. The fact that I don't know who that is makes is easy for me to piss on things, and I do apologize for that. I'm used to being faced with unsolvable puzzles by sadistic DM's, though. Most puzzles I encounter in these games are so ludicrously obscure that I automatically fall into "Oh sh--!* mode. That's the mindset I was in for this post.
So while the Flames thread is meant to be a place to rant and rave and burn without needing to apologize, I'm going to send an apology off to the builder of the crypts. You did your best, and really: except for being locked in and not being able to figure out how to get out, it really is a great little undead dungeon. |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 16 Oct 2006 03:06 AM |
Just wanted to say that I came across the Midor crypts almost a year ago with Robber Baron and Zahn Mahetna... at the time none of us knew the trick of the door, so RB and I remained outside while Zahn lured the zombies out, then we felled them with arrows. It wasn't until after we went in that I found the clue and realized how to open the door - there actually IS at least one other door in the world that is opened in a similar manner (which I also learned about completely IC).
As for the haunted house cellar, I discovered the room the first time I was down there... it actually seemed fairly obvious at the time. Not meaning to say I'm a super-genius or anything, I just think there are many players out there who get through these areas without using OOC knowledge, and it's not fair to them to assume that they're all essentially cheating.
I totally empathize with the feelings of frustration, unfairness, etc... I had a dirtnap earlier this week from petrification when the bonus to my save was greater than the DC, but of course I got the 1 and had to watch myself be slowly hacked to death... but to be perfectly fair, it happened for exactly the same reason your death in crypts happened: I was exploring a new area solo and paid the price for it. What can you do but dust yourself off and hop back up on the horse? ;)
-VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 16 Oct 2006 04:59 AM |
So while the Flames thread is meant to be a place to rant and rave and burn without needing to apologize, I'm going to send an apology off to the builder of the crypts. You did your best, and really: except for being locked in and not being able to figure out how to get out, it really is a great little undead dungeon.
The builder of that particular dungeon has been gone since March 2004 ish. Her name is Aria and she made some significant contributions to the world when Vives was first starting.
As for ranting in the flames forum, that's entirely what it is for.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Midor Crypts and Bad Quest/Level Design
Posted: 16 Oct 2006 07:28 AM |
*bears the distinction of being the first person to use the door having been asked to test it when it was built - polishes badge proudly*
*Also bears the distinction of being the player who went back in game after the way out had been changed, or at least the *coughs* well you know..... and died*
*hasn't been back since, not with that character at least* |
ELVES! |
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