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Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 12:12 PM |
I don't really get how this works. I mean, all the gods have clerics but Elbereth has cleircs -and- druids? And what is the differance in their status or RP?
And truethfully this is also a complaint: druid is my favorit class, but the ones in Vives are of a type I can't stand. Druids are soppused to worship raw nature, and not any god; if you want to worship a god of nature, make a cleric. I am aware of the fact that Vives stands as it's own world and it can re-invent the rules as it would like, but I see a great deal of wasted RP potential here. Concider, accordint to the elven myth of creation Elbereth slept and the world came to her in a dream and when she woke up the world she dreamt of was around her and the secrete of creation in her mind. Some may say that she hadn't, infact, created the natural world but merely acted as a nexus for it to creat itself, or even that she was just there by cuincidance. And here is your window to the standard druids, who are in my oppinion much better than just non-turnning, shapeshifting clerics. People who belive that nature is worthy of worshipping by itself, rather than being concidered just a side-effect of a goddess. Hell, I'll gladly be a part of, or even lead, a group of rogue druids and rangers who belive in that to become deteched from the main clergy, but I must know the official stand on the subject.
Also, if a group of raw nature worshipers is out of the question, or even druids are allowed to be worshipers of Elbereth along side with the raw nature worshipers, how are we to treat druids and clerics of Elbereth? If they are of the same order how come they are that much more diverced than other religious organazations, and indeed seem to offer completely different sets of training? If they are different brenches of the same organazation, or even two parallel organaztions, which is the dominant? Are they in friendly terms with one another? How did two different organazations of the same goddess came to be?
I have scanned the site and the PHB for answers of this and I have completely failed to find them. If they are there and I simply missed them, please link me there and sorry for wasting your time. |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 12:44 PM |
It's quite simple.
Elven clerics that follow Elbereth are almost without exception druids, the druids are the Elven clergy.
Druids in Vives ARE standard druids, with the exception that they have the same abilities of restoring life as a cleric and also have a few other extra spells outside the standard NWN set.
Elbereth also accepts followers of other races, some are druids but the majority are clerics in the more normal sense.
The Elven druids are almost all without exception members of the Ferein druid order, trained within the Grove there.
Clerics do not as such belong to any organisation, they chose for whatever reason to follow the Mother and are granted powers/abilities through prayer same as any other cleric.
Do not make the assumption that every druid worships Elbereth, there's no requirement for it, nor that every druid has to be a full blooded Elf or even born in Ferein to be part of the druid order there, there are exceptions to everything.
It is simply a matter of choice. An Elven druid of Ferein will recognise an Elberethian cleric/druid/fighter/whatever of any race as a friend, after all they follow the Mother, there is no reason why they wouldn't.
As to the creation, the Mother is seen as the source of all things however it came about, whether you believe she merely acted as a nexus is completely up to you - the important point here is that is not what the Elves believe. She was there, she instigated it. She was alone... who else would have? As such she is revered by all Elves, not just druids, as the source of it.
If you read the creation myth carefully you will see that druids and Elves in general DO worship nature. How you come to the conclusion that they do so merely since it is a side effect of a goddess is a little beyond me. The two as far as the Elven mind set is concerned are interlinked and inseperable, Elbereth is nature
Quite apart from which, as was mentioned in one of the posts in connection with the creation myth... there is more to come. Much more. |
ELVES! |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 12:54 PM |
Be aware also that the information in the PHB is very dated. Information in the Essential Information thread will sometimes conflict, when it does that on the forum is the one that overrules.
If you can't find anything in reference to a particular question, particularly if it has to do with Ferein, Elbereth, Aros or Elves in general, PM me through the site and I'll answer (if I am able to, and there will be instances where that is not the case - some information being 'secret').
If on the other hand the question relates to Tarik... well, ask the other feller :P |
ELVES! |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 01:02 PM |
I have a cleric of Elbereth. She's human, and multi-classed with ranger. She is a agent of death, specialized in fighting the undead. That's her entire purpose. She follows Elbereth because the Mother personifies those forces of life and death that are the Cycle of Nature. It isn't her belief that The Mother *caused* creation, but that She is an impetus *of* creation; i.e. Creation, as a force, requires a Being that can act as an intermediary between Itself and Sentient Life. In that sense, the Mother Elbereth is the goddess figure of the eternal inertia of life (not eternal life), motherhood, birth, lover, agape, instinct, evolution, pain, death and rebirth. She is Gaia, Diana, and Shiva (yes, I know Shiva is a god, not a goddess, but the idea remains the same).
Because Helena is not a direct agent of life and because she has no particular birthright of raport with Nature, she is not a druid. In my opinion, druids seek oneness with Nature, to become an embodiment of Nature's powers and ways within themselves. Clerics understand that they already are a part of things as they are and seek instead to honor that place through their actions and prayers. |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 01:25 PM |
Druids are soppused to worship raw nature, and not any god
Two points.
Who says they're not supposed to worship any god? If we take the historical druids that used to live in Britain once upon a time, it is fairly safe to say that they worshipped a whole pantheon of different gods and goddesses.
Ignoring the sentiment above, how do you think druids worship raw nature? I'm betting that it is usually done through a variety of deities and spirits - spirit of the oak or whatnot, god of the sun/fire etc. Possibly even mother goddess and father god. |
IG character: Alis Rapidshill |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 03:31 PM |
Druids are soppused to worship raw nature, and not any god
Two points.
Who says they're not supposed to worship any god? If we take the historical druids that used to live in Britain once upon a time, it is fairly safe to say that they worshipped a whole pantheon of different gods and goddesses.
Ignoring the sentiment above, how do you think druids worship raw nature? I'm betting that it is usually done through a variety of deities and spirits - spirit of the oak or whatnot, god of the sun/fire etc. Possibly even mother goddess and father god.
While the other posts made clear to me the way of mind (I have misunderstood it and was unable to find some of data to help me understand it all, so thanks of clearing it all), with this post I can argue.
Druids did not worship gods as modern western civilizations understand them. The belife of druids is that everything has a spirit, and that includes animals, plants, rocks and even the air. For them, "gods" were just the bigger natural fenomenas, and thus spirits of great power, though they were not different in essence to that of a human or a rock, just stronger (and of different propus). Also, to them, gods were local and it could be seen that every area had it's own gods. Infact, the conception of the druid in D&D is surprsingly accurate, for celts worshipped nature more than any god and druids tuaght them to do so. For that reasone celts often fought naked, since they belived that in their natural state they are strongest.
I did some reaserch on the subject that goes a bit beyound just reading about it in Wikipedia, so my word can be trusted to some extent. |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 04:05 PM |
I thought that Druids like all other characters in Vives had to pick a god. Is it possible to pick "nature" for one's deity? I had a similar difficulty as you in figuring out the relationships between gods and druids due to my belief that "nature" was not an option for deity. The following is how I dealt with it:
Zubeida is somewhat of a druid. She has the class anyway. Yet she is human, comes from the desert, and also practices wizardry. In creating her I had some trouble picking her deity. Due to the existence of Elbereth as The Mother... I got this idea that she would revere The Mother as an abstraction of feminine Nature rather than as Elbereth - which she sees as a personification of the same concept.
It actually really works for the character, and I give this to you as an example of my way around the problem. I still picked "Elbereth" as her deity. I had the option during play to change her deity to Gruin. Her understanding of Gruin is as the abstract Masculine side of Nature, as symbolized by The Beast and that as far as Nature is concerned The Mother and The Beast form a kind of dualism. On one side you have a nurturing spirit to Nature and upon the other you have Nature red in tooth and claw.
It really works for me, and I have a feeling that if I wanted to persue this in Zubeida's story - that a Dm would either adopt the ideas in whole or in part thereby adapting Vives, or find a way to illustrate to Zubeida why she is wrong in her view.
So... the point to all of this is that you can role play your character as you think is right. If you believe enough in your character and your character's story, then it will likely work out for you. You do need to be a little flexible. Story telling like this does involve a lot of give and take. |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 04:21 PM |
Druids did not worship gods as modern western civilizations understand them. The belife of druids is that everything has a spirit, and that includes animals, plants, rocks and even the air. For them, "gods" were just the bigger natural fenomenas, and thus spirits of great power, though they were not different in essence to that of a human or a rock, just stronger (and of different propus). Also, to them, gods were local and it could be seen that every area had it's own gods.
I didn't mean to question your knowledge or be hostile, I was just curious.
I don't see a problem calling a very powerful spirit a god, even if the word may have a slightly different meaning now. We dumb westerners need our labels. I don't actually see how my opinion differs from yours, apart from the semantics. *shrugs* |
IG character: Alis Rapidshill |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 05:48 PM |
I thought that Druids like all other characters in Vives had to pick a god
Just to clarify here, it is prefectly acceptable for a character to be an atheist and not claim allegiance to, or follow any of the deities of Vives, with two exceptions.
Druids and Clerics.
This is due to the way raising dead or resurrection is structured in Vives, simply put some deities will not -allow- you to bring back to life the followers of one, or more, that they might see as an enemy, or as opposing their particular ethos.
You are assumed as druid or cleric to be granted the ability to restore life by your deity, if you don't chose one when playing one of these classes the spell will simply fail.
That is NOT to say as I mentioned above that a druid MUST chose Elbereth as a deity. Yes she is the deity most closely identified with nature but she is not the only one.
((And incidentally, those with the ability to use divine scrolls as a cleric would will find that the same applies)) |
ELVES! |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 06:11 PM |
*tosses in another 2 cents*
My take on druids is that they view Nature itself as divine. Certainly, the order and intricacy and infinitely scaled beauty of Nature, combined with the billions of coincidences needed to sustain the natural cycle without deviation from physical law implies consciousness, though on some scale unachievalbe by any singular individual life form that is a part of that system. Druids, therefor, seek the divine in Nature, as translated through organisms and systems that remain intricately linked to the Natural cycles ecosystems.
To put it crudely, Vital Nature and Divine Nature are one and the same. A deity such as Elbereth may be a *symbol* for that relationship, but the physical nature we experience in our reality is but a single, limited perception of a greater Pure Ideal that transcends and suffuses realities beyond our experience.
Clerics on the other hand view that Vital Nature (trees, animals, rocks, life-death cycles, etc.) is a manifestation of a divine will that is intricately linked yet somehow separate from the physical. They are not codependant upon one another for existance in so much as that nature as experienced on the mortal, four-dimensional plane is a specific creation as designed by Someone beyond our perception. It would be natural, therefor, that a cleric must recognize a specific deity as being either responsible for that creation itself or for somehow translating the pure essence of Creation into physical being. |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 06:19 PM |
| Good way of putting it, and very much the difference between the two in a Vives sense where Elbereth is concerned anyway. |
ELVES! |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 21 Aug 2006 05:47 PM |
WOW. Suddenly my Nature-based characters have so much more to work with. Ferien has taken a new depth and has greater significance. I'm honestly dumbfounded. We have some very philosophical, deep and brilliant minds here. Particularly Henesua, Marlena, and The Ranger: 3 completely different takes ont he SAME concept yet with VERY different twists. I had seen these PCs in game and NEVER thought so deep into the possibilities of those belief systems.
Gruin and Elbereth as Male/Female counter presences in Nature: well, simply primal, yet so beautiful and it just seems so natural and beautiful... it also ties the Orcs and the elevs together seeming to put the entirity of Vives into a continuum that is tied together. Now: where did Gruin come from? There is so much potential there!!!
Then focusing on the creation aspect of Elbereth and making a cleric of Creation! Wonderful. I never would have thought to compartmentalize a diety's mythos in such a way to make such a streamlined/extreme personality. And that it came from the Goddess of nature and creation. It makes perfect sense, yet goes beyond what I would have thought to have done. Sure My ranger ALSO hates undead but to use the classes and focus on that strength... well, using a cleric who ties it into a woodland diety, that went outside of my box, yet will no-doubt make for a great PC!! Wish I had thought of it!
AND to have the goddess BE nature (The Ranger) I'm still struggling to grasp it. It's like shinto, Zen, or maybe Hindu, yet we're not talking about individual gods and goddesses here, we're talking about one Goddess who permeates and IS everything! Kinda like the force before Lucas perverted the idea with the nano-force-thingies in Episode-1. I always thought it was so much more interesting the way Yoda portrayed the force in Episode-5.
Yeah, I've studied a bit on world religions, and really all religions interest me (even if I don't follow them), so I must say I am really IMPRESSED with the theology that you folks are inventing for this game. BRAVO!!!
((Goes back to contemplating the profound concepts portrayed earlier in the post.))
((NOTE: Can we PLEASE get the Vives guide returned to the Lounge, or at least have some sort of tool re-introduced where we can change/correct our PCs' religions? Right now I have two PCs who are athiests who would not be, and Kalannar is still a follower of Aros, (I think,) although I would make him officially a follower of Valstadoriun.))
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 21 Aug 2006 09:06 PM |
Her understanding of Gruin is as the abstract Masculine side of Nature, as symbolized by The Beast and that as far as Nature is concerned The Mother and The Beast form a kind of dualism. On one side you have a nurturing spirit to Nature and upon the other you have Nature red in tooth and claw.
I like the way that Gruin is open to a number of interpretations. Something that hasn't changed since the most recent PHB is the way that some worship Gruin as a minor component of their overall spirit life, and some worship him without even knowing that they worship him, upholding the ideals of strength and all the rest of it.
And yeah, the connection between Gruin's masculinity and the presumed origins of the half-orc race make him a pretty terrible god.
Similarly I imagine (as Henesua suggests) lots of folk have shrines to a Mother without necessarily knowing the name of Elbereth, or worshiping her exclusively. That's the concept I had for Vrodo. He loves his mother and fears his father. When he fails to achieve empathy with an animal I say its inhabited by the spirit of his father, because his mother would never harm him. |
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"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 21 Aug 2006 09:13 PM |
That's the concept I had for Vrodo. He loves his mother and fears his father. When he fails to achieve empathy with an animal I say its inhabited by the spirit of his father, because his mother would never harm him.
That is just sooo cool. I am jealous of your mad roleplaying skills. |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 21 Aug 2006 10:03 PM |
Druids did not worship gods as modern western civilizations understand them. The belife of druids is that everything has a spirit, and that includes animals, plants, rocks and even the air. For them, "gods" were just the bigger natural fenomenas, and thus spirits of great power, though they were not different in essence to that of a human or a rock, just stronger (and of different propus). Also, to them, gods were local and it could be seen that every area had it's own gods. Infact, the conception of the druid in D&D is surprsingly accurate, for celts worshipped nature more than any god and druids tuaght them to do so. For that reasone celts often fought naked, since they belived that in their natural state they are strongest.
I did some reaserch on the subject that goes a bit beyound just reading about it in Wikipedia, so my word can be trusted to some extent.
1. Actually druids did worship gods. I'm not sure what sources to which you are referring, but according to the sixth book of Julius Caesar's account of his conquest of Gaul, the druids believed that humanity was descended from a god called Dis, and also worshipped a pantheon of gods, which Caesar likened to his familiar Jupiter, Mercury, Venus, and Mars. Keep in mind, Julius Caesar is one of the few people who have written about the druids who actually knew some in person.
2. Druidism isn't a unified religious system, nor is it limited to one ethnic group. Yes, certain segments of the Celtic population followed druidism, but some didn't. The Picts, the Saxons, and the Bretons all had segments of their populations who followed druidism, as well. Most scholars today agree that no one really knows what the original, authentic druids believed or practised to any degree of certainty. In my mind, one has to go to primary sources to figure this stuff out (see #1 above).
3. A modern druid movement began in Britain in the 18th century that many now assume is the "real" druidism. It includes the kind of animism you describe, and it would make sense that they didn't name any specific "gods" they worshipped, to avoid conflict with the predominantly Christian majority at the time.
-VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 21 Aug 2006 11:44 PM |
1. Actually druids did worship gods. I'm not sure what sources to which you are referring, but according to the sixth book of Julius Caesar's account of his conquest of Gaul, the druids believed that humanity was descended from a god called Dis, and also worshipped a pantheon of gods, which Caesar likened to his familiar Jupiter, Mercury, Venus, and Mars. Keep in mind, Julius Caesar is one of the few people who have written about the druids who actually knew some in person.
While I generally agree with VK on the spirit of his post, I do have a quibble with his first point. I think Julius Caesar's account is highly suspect as an objective primary source. I have read it, completing perhaps half of the text, and while I am not a scholar of this stuff, it did strike me as an example of a conqueror making up history as he went along for his own benefit. At the time it seemed very odd to me that the druids would follow a classical pantheon. The idea is appealing but ... seems far fetched to say the least. I don't know if there are other sources that corroborate this stuff, and am interested if anyone knows of them. |
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 22 Aug 2006 01:15 AM |
Regardless of what our RL history on Druids actually is...
In Vives, Druids of Elbereth are recognized as a special kind of cleric/priest. In fact, I would say that the vast majority of druids are Elbereth worshippers.
We do have players that have druids that are followers of more animistic religions in the sense of the current RL druidical beliefs so we clearly accept both.
What you choose to do depends entirely on your character concept and what you want to do with it.
Enjoy.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Druids as Opposed to Clerics of Elbereth
Posted: 22 Aug 2006 03:08 PM |
At the time it seemed very odd to me that the druids would follow a classical pantheon. The idea is appealing but ... seems far fetched to say the least. I don't know if there are other sources that corroborate this stuff, and am interested if anyone knows of them.
Well, I'm not going to get in and debate the details of druidic faith since I've only got one book I bought ((I think from Stonehenge when I visited there in 93?)) and still haven't finished the book. It's VERY shallow: a coffee-table type book.
I am writing to say however that history IS often unfortunately defined by it's writer ((which scares me, a little)) and that ((oh yeah, this will probably piss a lot of folks off)) Christians as we know them today are also Roman Hybrids of what they really once were. Most of the symbolatry, the dates, the traditions that SOOO many ((especially uneducated ones of Puritanical descent)) accept as traditional fact was truely only a Roman Political scheme to get the "Savages" to embrace Roman-Christianity ((an older version of Catholicism.))
Pentograms were actually Pagan signs of protection, thus branded "evil" to sway the masses. Christmas trees were a way to win over the powerful northern tribes incorporating "santa Lucia" for the vikings, and winning the some Druids through totem/tree-worship. Even today you'll still see the celtic-knot worked into the portrayal of some of the crosses around the British Isles. ((They couldn't completely give up their ancient culture now could they?)) Christmas was actually set near the winter equinox on some Roman caesar's birthday, pleasing both the egomaniac and winning more pagans ((I do not use the word "Pagan" judgementally, but do to ignorance don't know if I should include Druids/Celts or segregate them from the term.)) I find it so humorous that Christians complain about the term: "X-mas" since the "X" is also a cross, and that non-christians complain about the decorated tree in public places, since technically it's not even a literal Christian symbol! If anything the Christmas tree represents the co-existance of religions.
Yes, they definitely incorporated parts of Roman culture. ((Angels are not really little fat babies, I'm not even going to get started on politics, etc...)) I think what made people so mad about The Davinci Code book/movie is that so much of the story ((fiction)) was based around true historical facts and used truths about symbology. Plus it was so well written, most folks uneducated in theology couldn't distinguish where the truth was. The "weak ones" may have been swayed.
Ironically, the original "Christian" looked a lot like a "Jew", an shared most of their practices. Even the said "Christian holidays", which were preserved by Rome, have parallels to Jewish holidays in spiritual concept and function, ((EAT YOUR HAT MEL GIBSON!!!)) =P but I don't have the time to dig out my notes and explain it all now. Since Catholics mainstreamed Christianity through Roman Conquest as the official religion, it survived the dark ages of europe and now all the different "denominations" are really all variants and offshoots of that body striving for the original truth, hidden, as were many truths which had existed in the other religions that were decimated by the Roman Conquest.
Most cultures have their own creation stories, stories of what happens after death, and stories of "coming to adulthood". Then, each add their own additional stories to cover pertinent issues in their cultural world view. Interestingly many have flood stories. It is suspected that "Noah's Arc" was found in some mountains near Turkey, but Archaeological study hasn't been able to be done sufficiently, due to international politics and other cultural issues. It's a shame. ((Don't mention it to Geogre W... he doesn't need any more ideas.)) ;)
I love that Elberethians now have their creation story. I can't wait to see if Midorans come up with one of their own to counter it. Today there are even scientific Christians ((not to be confused with the group who don't believe in using medicine to be healed)) who are seeking evidence in science to prove creationism and old testament stories. ((Sometimes meaning literally 7 days, sometimes not. A tough order, in my opinion. There's a movie about Loki's mask, but it really only ended up being a great comedy.))
Don't believe everything you're told, get the facts first. I'm sure many gamers here are very educated on history anyways. In my experience, they most often are. |
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