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too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 03:35 AM |
Again, my newbie take here.
xp is a hot topic here as it is everywhere. After my 4 hour trial period here, my char was already level 3, with a chainmail +1, boots that give 1 to charisma, a scarab of protection +3 (that I could not wear), etc... I don't want my char to stay forever in the low-levels, but I do believe that I advanced too fast.
I know a lot of players are going to scream but here is my wish list:
- cut down the amount of xp from combat, skill, magic and crafting by dividing them by 3 to 5. For the skills, it is an icing on the cake, and for the crafts, the things you can craft are rewards on their own.
- The discovery experience is ok I think, and since you get it only once, it is not so bad.
- Develop a scale of xp rewards based on level, and ish out loads of it to reward good team/role-players. So, if there is a group who all roleplayed well, and for instance the chars are level 1, 5 and 10, then each would receive a different amount of xp (for instance level 1 would get 50 xp, level 5 250 and level 10, 500xp). That would allow for serious progression through role-playing.
Decreasing the current available xp would prevent xp farming and increased xp rewards would encourage more RP.
This of course requires more DM presence, which leads to my second point:
From what I read in the forum, there is a lack of DM IG...Well, the solution is ..for the DM to get more on. I know this is difficult with RL constraints (such as sleep and work) and also for DMs who develop the world, but if you ask me, it is way more important to have DM online and giving a dynamic to the world than to have new belts, armors, and stuff or even to have animals friendly to druids and rangers (though I must say this is a great feature). In other words, from what I have seen so far, Vives is technically very advanced, but what it would lack (more from the comments I read than from the 4 hours I've played) is its soul..that is DMs.
As a final illustration, I had 90 or so xp for picking a lock, and twice 20xp for RP. I would much rather have had 20 xp from the lock picking and 100xp from Roleplay. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 05:06 AM |
If you think there's too much XP available on Vives, wait until well after your trial period to judge.
I'm not a powergamer. Look at how much effort I put into stuff like offline RP and writing if you think I just play to get levels.
However, I would never say there is too much XP on Vives. Every single source of XP devalues- which is why the system is so good! It's easy to get to about lvl 4/5, but then it takes a vast ammount of time to advance.
We'd all like XP for roleplay. But, it simply isn't viable to have a DM on for every group of players giving out RP XP. IMHO.
I'm not an admin, or a DM, and so all of this is just my opinion, and feel free to ignore it. However, I would strongly caution against saying there is too much XP available when you've spent...4 hours, was it? On the server. I wouldn't consider that enough time to really judge the XP system.
Feel free to ignore my entirely IMHO post,
Barnas |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 05:46 AM |
too much xp..
that's something new =p
I dont think there's too much xp (maybe some unbalancing - like monks are hard to play) but the over all lvl there isnt too much xp ..
what do I mean -
first thing, seems that you took a rouge, cuz you had the open locks skill,
locks xp runs out really fast, it will help you get to around lvl 5 - 6 (with some of the quests that needs rouges to complete) but that's it, later on you will get your xp much slower then untill then, so the lower lvls are faster then the highers.. much faster..
one of the main reasons for getting fast first lvls, (for almost every class) is the exploring xp,
you can get to lvl 3 without any fighting, only be walking around, again, this depends on your class..
i.e. rouges can get this in about an hour(or less) so i guess you can get to lvl 3 in one hour.. and then the 3 extra hours you got one lvl..
I know 3 hours for lvls is almost nothing, but the time that takes to get lvls later, at the higher lvls, is much longer.. so it is pretty balanced..
another thing -
Vives world is huge, with a lot of areas...
so if you would stay at lvl 1 for your first 4 (or more) hours,
first - you would get bored, cuz you wont be able to get too far without getting killed,
and second, you would die trying to explore the world and you will loose xp that you -wont- be able to get back (only be rp rewards) which means you will get stuck at some point - which again leads to being able to travel only to the near areas, and not being able to explore further.
I am not taling from the point of a PGer (or at least i hope so )
but lvling -does- have importence.
you cant stay at lvl 1 or 2 and walk aorund..
which means - more lvls - more options..
i am not saying that you should kill and kill and gain xp till lvl 20..
but staying at the lower lvls (1 - 4) will limit your options..
about RP rewards..
DMs does not give them all the time, so you cant base all your xp on RP rewards (getting lvls at higher lvls does depend on RP rewards, but not 100% of the xp is DM gained)
also -
RP rewards are usually % of xp to lvl based, so lvl 1 might get more then a lvl 10 (if the lvl 10 char is almost lvl 11)
and IMO it is much better then giving xp based on lvl.
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 06:50 AM |
I also do not believe that there's too much xp. I invested 168 hours in vives and now I'm level 11. I got to level 5 easily enough but the rest was harder to come by. Ok some things were skewed like the gemcrafting, but that has been remediated.
I'd also prefer roleplay awards because I've come to a level where I can't progress much more except through roleplay. I participate in roleplay whenever the occasion presents itself or I start it myself. Ever sit 2 hours in an inn and did nothing but talk ? Try that on and still say that xp progresses too fast.
Vives has IMHO nothing to do with who gains levels faster than the other but is all about interaction. And I agree with both Barnas and Dens.
And yes get killed and see those hard earned xp drop fast. If not for the system that vives has i would've been level 20 by now, but I don't want that. I like how the progress slows down. The only reason I go out slaying goblins is because I need something i nthe halfling village or to escort someone lower in level than me, certainly not for the sake of xp (yay I gained 20 xp ;)).
Phoenix aka Dias |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 07:54 AM |
I hate to quote Toy Story, but are you shrink wrapped!? :P
Experience in Vives is anything BUT easy! Sure, you get out of the very low levels quite quickly, which in my opinion is great, because I don't like the very low levels. Come level 5/6, after a few deaths and EXP loss, you'll find that experience is anything BUT easy to come by. Heck, I have a character I've put around 110/120 hours into, and he's only level 8.
(mind you, I never really go levelling with him, the weakling:P) |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 08:04 AM |
| Rogues are fairly simple. I have 1 that's lvl 6, one that's 5 (In jail :P), but try a sorceress. Or try one with a low const. Bloody impossible. And make massive character flaws, they make it that much more fun. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 10:09 AM |
| I have a Level 5 Sorceress who got there mostly by exploring and crafting, with a little bit of rat-killing (which does not count for much with magic-users) when she hunted for skins. Because she is too weak, both physically and magic-wise, she can't get a lot of the things she would need to advance to high levels in her crafts (she does tinkering, tailoring, baking, and someday may do brewing). She hasn't got a lot of cash on her, either. For her most recent leveling I took Grease as a spell. I figured an old lady who cooks a lot should have a can of grease on her to spill in front of the monsters. *grin* But my point here is that I wouldn't even take her out during the recent livestock epidemic, because the cows and chickens would probably have killed her. Vives is a rough world. ;) |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 10:30 AM |
Ok, i was going to play and see more of the worlds before adding to this topic, but I would just like to add a few things, because although I am a newbie here, I also come from a roleplay background.
So, maybe one thing that would explain my take on things is that the previous server I played on was a HCR server, with low magic and low xp. After almost 3 and a half months of playing 5 days a week, I managed to get my main char past the level 5 bar.
Ok I am not trying to say the same should be done here, because that is a bit extreme, and that's why I am here, but 4 hours, 3 levels indeed seemed fast. And in the beginning, it is very tempting to try to level fast, which can precludes RPing.
As for sitting at an inn and Rping for 2 hours, I have done that. I have even spent 8 hours rping with no xp reward at all cos' no DM on. I still think every bit of it was worth it. I have also spent hours and hours Rping from a place called the fugue plane...
When one says (no one targeted), well my char can't do this because he is too weak, this is all the point of adventuring in parties. I know the player base needs growing, but with lots of Dm time IG and lost of RP xp should help. And adventuring in parties is also a good op for Rping whilst having some exploring/hacking fun. And groupos are more likely to get the attention of a DM, I'd say, |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 10:59 AM |
I think the XP system is pretty balanced in most cases but a few tweaks would be nice. These "sugested tweaks however are not to lower the amount of XP but to increase it. As stated several times in the posts above, getting to level 5 is somewhat easy, the problem however starts at around level 6. At or around level 6 crafting really comes into play as a form of advancement, however, as you advance in crafting skills you can actually lose XP! Neek is a level 12 (in crafting) when he crafts a mahogany long bow he loses 6XP for each bow he crafts!
There have been many jokes and sarcastic remarks like "time to get an apprentice" etc. (which by they way I've done) or "thats just old age setting in", however the problem however still remains! Never in my opinion should there be a loss in XP (both crafting or exploring) for completing a task.
Another problem that I see is the amount of XP given to spell casters vs fighters. A spell caster recieves xp for both killing a monster as well as casting a spell. Albeit, the amount of combat XP decreases as the number of kills increases for the particular creature, but the XP for casting the spell remanins the same! Fighters on the other hand suffer a reduction for fighting a creature until the XP falls to 1. They don't get the spell bonus that casters do. I feel this issue needs to be addressed as well. One possible solution is to have spell caster'a spell XPs drop similair to combat XP or provide the Fighter will a a bonus as well (maybe by increasing the number of base xp awarded from 1 to 5).
Aye! I agree that Vives can be a "rough world" but I think we should try to make it a balanced one :) |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 11:07 AM |
Aha~! *seize the opportunity and cuts the XP by 5 per suggestion* 
Just a quick clarification: the experience rewarded for role-playing is in proportion to the character level (usually 1-2% of what you need to advance; if they're too meager, I usually top it up additionally, but that varies with DMs)
There's an average scale on one of my previous post (someone said it was too slow then) - the average time to get to the following levels (barring unintended sources) are:
2 - <1 hr
3 - 3
4 - 6
5 - 12
6 - 24
7 - 40
8 - 110
9 - 250
10 - 400
The rationale for this is to generate a bell-shaped level distribution centred about 7'ish. Low-levels does not allow much differentiation amongst characters in terms of mechanics (and getting chewed up by a rat is, in my opinion, inherently no fun); higher levels are frequently whacky for both builders, players, and DMs. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 11:32 AM |
What I meant about "base XP" is the minimun amout awarded for killing a creature type several times (usually 1 but sometimes 2xp) :P
Why am I responding to this? You know what I meant! :P |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 11:57 AM |
The loss of XP on completing trivial crafting tasks is a bug, admitted to as such by the author of CNR, and fixed by the author of CNR in a version later than the one in use here. If it stays in place here then I have to assume it is intentional on the part of the designers of Vives. ;)
My Sorceress was never intended to be able to traipse around in the wilderness, and all going along with a party has ever done for her was to nearly get her killed. And the party's thief stole her bedroll as punishment for "running off and leaving us" (she almost died after the first blow from a Worg Rider right at the entrance to the area, turned around and left immediately). So *expletive deleted* parties for her. Her interactions, when she has them, are craft-related and that is IC for her. Little old ladies don't wander around in the wilderness, not for long anyway. :)
My Fighter is now at the place where she can do some good in the harder areas. What she has to do is nurture a cleric or two along until they can raise dead (multiple redundancy is good with clerics), get a good thief to disarm the traps, and feel out which mage she can trust at her back (if any). She still can't, however, single-handedly kill Lymneum Hydra or Ronin, or survive nasty traps in the Port Royale Catacombs. That's fine by me. :)
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Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 12:15 PM |
| After 253 hours with Gasher he is level 8 and a long way from level 9 yet. The levels will slow down especially for those who must risk life and limb to get xp. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 12:41 PM |
I have some opinions too! (surprise surprise :P)
Slow progression to me is just dull as shite at low levels...... all you can seem to do is bash the same rat and it's poor little family over the bonce for hours upon hours...... BUT the biggest problem that I have with this is that D&D and NWN is full of wonderful Creatures and many other things that one will never see in a month of Sundays on many servers due to not being a high enough level. Now to me that is quite simply appalling use of the toolset/game etc (as always an opinion, albeit a strong one :P)
So what we have done is enabled folks to quickly integrate and not feel like a spare part for hours. The fun to me (aside from RP) is exploration and seeing new things, and as such we disign Vives around that), and hopefully players will feel they can do so.
Now Vives enables players to do this quite quickly and have fun from virtually the moment they step in game (hopefully :P). The XP then becomes much much harder to come by (highest lvl we have in game is still 16 after approx 500 hours of playtime and deaths in single figures)...... this is because level 20 characters are almost Godlike vs Standard Bioware creatures and those from Monster Manuals....... it becomes a difficult task to maintain challenges without creating slightly ridiculous monsters.
So hopefully this will encourage a little bit of partying up vs the likes of Balors etc and means there will always be a challenge at any level and any party size. It also stops people being so blase about death which I see so much on other servers (this also means that folks are less likely to PK as they begin to value their lives :P)
Finally, it also (should) lead to a greater diversity of levels amongst PC's...... as the XP system rewards those who Roleplay and who simply don't care and die too often.
So..... thanks for the post :D I understand you completely as at first it seems you level too quickly, but stick around and see if you'll be feeling the same way in a while :)
Cheers and Welcome!
Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 12:52 PM |
| I've put in my share of hours to reach level 4. I've also spent my share of time taking dirtnaps. I think the XP system is just about perfect IMHO. |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 12:57 PM |
So what we have done is enabled folks to quickly integrate and not feel like a spare part for hours.
*rolls on floor laughing* Seriously, only Ara can write something like this... |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Oct 2003 01:51 PM |
Meh, I've played most my characters... Lord knows how long (I'm too lazy to check the Dirtnap Leagues in Study Hall) I'll say between 25 and 40 hours each. I still feel like a spare part (Mainly because one's in Jail... speaking of which, there ought to be right to a speedy trial in Vives, he'll be locked up for a week or two before he get's tried. One nobody likes, ones deaf, and ones avoided at all costs... yes, I'm talking about Derfel :P)
So feeling like a spare part is natural. Six months into Vives and I still feel that way. But look on the bright side, spare parts are always needed incase one breaks! Being a spare part in this server is an honor none the less. To be part of the machine that is Vives is wonderful, but when things get rough and old, only we spare parts can replace it. So don't be too shy to make a new character, just think of it as a spare for when things go down hill. (And try not to get in too much trouble with it :P)
And if you still feel like a spare part, look at your personality. I'm a spare part here because for the most part, my personality sucks. I'm a care-free, stubborn person that never looks ahead. I live for the moment and learn from my mistakes. But I always have to learn the hard way. It could be the same for anyone else that feels like a spare part here. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 12 Jan 2004 09:52 PM |
I am pretty new as well, and I would have to say that the xp is pretty good, other than the lack of roleplaying exp. For this to be a roleplaying server, then there must be roleplaying exp to reward the good RPer's. Even if the DM takes over a merchant for a short time, it makes the game much better, and much more exciting, that they could possible have work for a bored rogue :)
Molo.... |
So a cleric, a ranger, and a thief walk into a bar, which one am I?
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 12 Jan 2004 11:18 PM |
| DMs hand out lots of RP xp... unfortunately the only times I've seen you you've been either dead, or I was a player.Hang on, we'll get to ya! |
Question Authority! |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Jan 2004 07:06 AM |
| Maybe I'm just lucky but I've been on the recieving end of quite a few xp rewards for RP. DMs do have real lives and can't be on the server 24/7. |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Jan 2004 07:18 AM |
Vandle not just you, I belive many few players can say that got many XP rewards for RP. I personaly dont think the XP system is not GOOD I even think it is perfect.
Lets say, untill level 6,7,8 depending on classes some are easyer sme are a bit dificult, until these levels you can reach prety easily, explore, static quests, even some XP for killing some low mobs. But after that its over. Around these levels you have explored almost all places so XP for explore is for, the mobs you have killed so many times, for passing in the areas and from going to explore or even just for being a mid level will give you 1,2 xp wich doesnt make a diference I belive no one kills mobs to get 1,2 XP, and static quests are over. SO after level 9 at and in most cases even before that, the sources of XP are over, when we have to wait for RP XP to go further, this is good cuz being a mid level you can kill more then rats and not die all day, and still cant kill the hard mobs. After this get a level will take ALOT of time, so looking into Arias table, I would say isnt this what Vives proposed?
There's an average scale on one of my previous post (someone said it was too slow then) - the average time to get to the following levels (barring unintended sources) are:
2 - <1 hr
3 - 3
4 - 6
5 - 12
6 - 24
7 - 40
8 - 110
9 - 250
10 - 400
The rationale for this is to generate a bell-shaped level distribution centred about 7'ish. Low-levels does not allow much differentiation amongst characters in terms of mechanics (and getting chewed up by a rat is, in my opinion, inherently no fun); higher levels are frequently whacky for both builders, players, and DMs. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Jan 2004 07:27 AM |
| I reached level 9 in 210 hours myself, and I thought it was going slow cuz I spent all my time RPing, not fighting lol |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Jan 2004 08:16 AM |
I think the reason XP on Vives is so good for that reason. The largest chuck is exploration; one shot. Everything else devalues.
Reaching level 10 can vary in time between 200ish hours and 70ish hours, from what I have seen.
However, after that, advancement is almost -uniform-, dependant on RP awards.
I like that.
-Barnas |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 14 Jan 2004 09:07 AM |
| I forgot to mention that I think the xp progression in Vives is the best I've ever come across. |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: too much xp
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 01:07 PM |
Eh, it's pretty good, but it could use some work. It's certainly the best thing out there though.
But I'm just a perfectionist, that's all. |
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