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Pick Pocketing
Posted: 10 Oct 2003 10:51 PM |
| I was just wondering why I am not being allowed to Pick Pockets, my rogue has 12 skill points in Pick Pocket, but I am not given the option to steal from PC's. Am I doing something wrong, am I just stupid? Hmmm, he just wants to steal stuff, is that all that hard? |
Tycho Brahe
"There has to be a standard."
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 10 Oct 2003 10:58 PM |
I'm not aware of any changes to NwN default pick-pocket system.
However, a word of note: most PCs are not pleased to be pickpocketed, and we'd urge every consideration and use much sensitivity before even attempting such. Perhaps a better way to phrase it is, "would the action promote a more enjoyable environment for both parties?" If the answer is No, I'd suggest trying to accomplish your goal(s) in alternative ways. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 10 Oct 2003 11:48 PM |
glad someone brought this up.
what is the appropriate response when discovering one has been pickpocketed? to what extent can the PC stolen from chastise the thief? is deadly force permitted?
please don't say "call a guard." that takes DM intervention, which is not often available. if the guards were programmed to respond to a call of "stop, thief!" it might be different.
i personally have no problem with the idea of slaying such a character on sight, say, for six or seven times in a row. but i am more bloodthirsty than my characters. and less law abiding.
:) |
But long ago he rode away
And where he dwelleth none can say |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 11 Oct 2003 05:57 AM |
Right click on your hot-key bar on the bottom, add a skill in, set it to pickpocket, (Like I keep F5 for my Pick-pockets) and then just hit F5 for ex and click on a PC. Then it'll work.
And now that I think about it, don't PP a person more than 3 times in a row. That's where I draw my line, beyond that it's griefing. And give back any OOC items you may aquire, and don't count those. (Vives Bug Reporter, Emote Wand, etc.) |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 11 Oct 2003 05:59 AM |
| Oh, and when things get done that aren't nice, they shouldn't always be instantly gratifying to the victim. But when things build up, and maybe when an assassins guild or something builds up, then it'll be more fun for both parties. In the mean time, don't expect to get a little feeling of happiness each time you get shot in the back or something, because it won't happen. You might be more happy when the bugger hangs, or when you have to go out and smite out an assassins guild. |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 11 Oct 2003 06:01 AM |
well, about the first thing:
from some reason there are PCs (and i think some NPCs as well) that doesnt display that pick pocket icon ,so you can do the following-
put the pick pocket action in one of your quickslots, and that should do it ;)
about what Alo said -
I dont think that this should be considered, i mean..
of course i am not saying you can pickpocket people all around the place,
but if you got a char that pick pocketing is what the char does, then you should pick pocket..
thinking about the player, if he will get angry or not, isnt exactly IG - and at this situation shouldnt affect the char.
about what MerlinAbrose said -
I completely agree, -but- again, it all depends on what your char's like -
if your char is the type that will attack - attack, if your char will just inform the gaurds (when DM get IG - or in the IRC) do it..
it is all based on your char's character..
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 11 Oct 2003 07:36 AM |
Having been involved in a long debate about this on knightsbridge, and having just had the stupid school computer bluescreen on me loosing my lovely post in the process :(, I'll just ask one question and forgo giving my opinion.
The question is.....
Is pickpocketing considered a hostile action on Vives?
I've played servers where it's on par with an attack, and some where it's treated as an insult rather than a direct assault on your PCs person as it were. So I'll just ask that and base what I do when pickpocketed on the answer.
Thanks for any recieved answer,
-Barnas
Feel free to ignore this post. (Though in this case I'd prefer an answer... :P) |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 11 Oct 2003 08:34 AM |
well, IMO
it should depend on the char,
e.g -
i mean.. if the char came from a family of halflings where everyone were rouges,
trying to steal from that char wont be 'hostile' but will be an insult, claiming that you can pick that halfling's pocket, when he knows the 'art' and (thinks) he can see you every time.
while when you are trying to steal from a marchent / crafter - this would result in a fight - or by being arrested etc
what i am trying to say, that this should depend on the char, the culture it came from, the char's point of view on things etc etc
so it shouldnt be considered 'by vives' but by each char.
another thing we might want to define is 'honor'
what do i mean?
I have read and played about/in worlds where honor werent really importent, where you could bertray and lie whenever you wish,
and others where people died to defend their honor.
(e.g these knights from dragon lance [ i duno how to spell their name =p solemanic or something] which said their honor is their life)
again, this can be determined by each char,
but i think it would be better to have a .. more global definition of honor.
(which, i guess, will also define what is hostile and what's an insult)
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 11 Oct 2003 09:24 AM |
Can you tell if someone pickpockets you? Does it say "You have lost an item." or "Lost NNN gold?" Or does it only tell you if the person fails? And if the person fails, does it tell you who tried it?
And on the subject of stealing from stores. I have been in stores where I looked into what I thought was a display case and it said "Your conscience tells you it is wrong to loot the store." I closed the case and nothing happened to my orientation. But I was with someone in a party last evening and when she looked into the case both pther party members got a hit on Lawful/Chaotic. We asked her not to loot the stores if she was with us, and she said that she hadn't even touched anything in the container, and that it was a scripting error. Could this be true, that the person who looks is saved from the hit by closing the case, but the others in the party are not?
On honor. Obviously this is highly context sensitive. I would expect halflings to consider theft from biggers as an honorable occupation, just off the top of my head. I'm not sure whether having someone try to rob me is an insult to my honor, though. Wrongful accusation is an insult to my honor. Slander and libel are insults to my honor. Is honor on the Good/Evil scale or on the Lawful/Chaotic scale? It's hard to tell even what I think myself given what I just said above. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 11 Oct 2003 09:44 AM |
A short reaction:
With PP I think depending on certain feats, stats and skills you get to see various messages. So thats cool.
As for the alignment shift, the fact an entire party is condemned for the actions of one other person, isn't entirely right. I think this is being looked into. I mean you can not be judged for something someone else is doing at an entirely different end of vives compared to your own location.
As for the alignment shift, you get a warning first, thats what you say. The next container you open in that house causes the shift. So that person probably was in there earlier and checked a cabinet or chest, was warned, and now did it again causing the penalty. So there is no scripting error, aside the problem an entire party is penalized.
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 11 Oct 2003 11:38 AM |
| She probably opened two chests? Or opened the same one twice? But really, having private Armoires in the public showroom of a tailor's establishment seems a bit like entrapment to me. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 11 Oct 2003 03:03 PM |
Here's my take on pick pocketing
(First, can an admin/Aria/Q find the old posts we had on the forums discussing the ideas/rules concerning meta-gaming, PP, PK, etc? We did have an awful lot of good input, it was before we strayed from PHP. If those are salvagable they would help a lot I think).
Anyways, my take on pick pocketing (once again )
In the real world, let's say someone steals your wallet on the street, or you come home and you've been robbed. Now putting insurance and such to the side, you really can't do anything about it. Think of yourself in the medieval ages. No alarms, no security, nothing. When you get robbed, you are screwed, it's life. Even in present day, they usually do not find the theif, and the police have better things to do most of the time (in their eyes).
Now let's say that the same theif continually robs houses and/or people in the same area, over and over. Word spreads fast, a neighborhood watch starts up, and the police take interest. If the theif is good, he'll either stop or keep doing it without being caught. If not a good theif, all this helps in his capture, and he is sent to jail or death...or both.
I see Pick Pocketing as the same way. Don't like having things stolen? Then that's too bad, if you wanted a character who is nervous, paranoid, and a miser, then play that with a +10 in spot and listen checks. Theft happens, and if you are not prepared, the only one to blame is the character. Rogues are a part of this world, and as such, they are human (or demi-human) as well. If you have a complaint, post it on the forums (IC mind you), and see if other citizens have had the same problem. Enough complaints and the guards will take notice, and either hand out bounties or take it upon themselves. From there, jail and trials can be expected.
Note this. I may sound harsh concerning the victims, but it is every bit as harsh for the theif once captured as well. After all, with all those things he's stolen, they are bound to be somewhere, and the long arm of the law can sneak its way into many treasures hidden away >:D .
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 12:06 AM |
Ok here is exactly how pick pocketing works
You actually make 2 seperate rolls when attempting a pick pocket
1) the first roll determines if you are detected or not (makes no difference if you get and item or not). If you suceed then you attempt a steal roll without the second parties knowledge. If you fail the roll then you still attempt a steal roll but the second party is allerted of your act and it displays the stealing animation for everyone to see.
2) regardless of wether or not you are caught you ALWAYSE roll a steal second. If you suceed then you are rewarded with a random item from their inventory or some gold. If you fail then you get nothing. Keep in mind that if you fail this roll and suceed in the detection roll then you will fail to get an item but you will not be seen so nobody will know that you tried.
My take on stealing is that if you should fail at an attempt (regardless if you are seen or not) you should not attempt to do it again untill the next day. Same applies if you suceed. All the heat about stealing has come from people chain stealing from someone untill they have almoast nothing left. Another thing that you should never do is run around the corner and log out if someone catches you. People that do that should be banned for being an arse. Also if you dont get the *has tried to steal form you message* then it never happened, not even if they were the only one around you and you know for a fact that something is missing from you. If people just follow those rules then stealing is just fine and dandy, if someone sees you try and steal it would be up to them to report it but there should also be witnesses around to confirm the accusation or i do not believe that and action against the thief should be taken. 3 withnesses are required (2 not counting the person being stolen from).
The main problem I ran into on other servers with stealing is that everyone was alwayse running around accusing everyone else of stealing and if they saw a halfling run around any corner for an reason they just as well attacked them and use the i thought they stol from someone excuse. Granted these people had no RP skills at all and just basicall went around trolling. I thing with the application requirement that we will not see many of those people around.
As far as stealing from shopkeepers the proper way to do that in Vives (as i have discovered accidentally) is to just simply be hidden when you try and purchase something. You will have to then make a roll against a 45 dc and win in order to steal the item. (that required a 25 pick pocket skill and a roll of 20 which i do not think anyone can do at the time so dont try it).
The main problem with people stealing is that without subdual dammage you will not be able to capture them on the spot. You will have to wait for a DM to come around and think of some way to capture them. The main problem if you try to just teleport them to jail or something it them saying that is not fair and they could have gotten away by running and hiding. We need to come up with a solution to this, i have played a few modules that had dammage set so that any hit that would drop them below -1 would instead set their health to -1. All situations settled with force (you didnt have to go to jail, you could fight agaisnt the guards) consisted of dropping them to -1 and then healing them and you just would rp having them bound up. Nobody refused that for fear of looking like an arse. I think this would be a good system to force all PvP dammage into the -1 rule but unfortunatly i never bothered to find out just how anyone did that exactly. They also had city guards consisting of players that played the role of the major law enforcement. You could disobey them and fight if you wanted to get away but if you lost you would have to be mature enough to play being tied up.
Also something i was alwayse wondering about, why is everyone so gosh darn freaking nice all the time. Cant anyone play an evil hearted person that has a twisted personality? Well i am just to see what everyone will do :) |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 08:44 AM |
This all pretty much makes sense except the part about the theft not happening if the items disappear in the presence of an certain individual without detection of the act. Sure you can't prove anything, but if your silver tableware disappeared a piece at a time every time you had a certain person to dinner you'd sure as heck stop inviting them. I am not certain of this, but if you accused someone of this and a search of them turned up a partial setting in your pattern then the case against them would at least be stronger. I would expect this search to take place only if enough people complained to the authorities about such suspicions.
Setting PvP damage limit to -1 sounds like a great idea, as my knee-jerk reaction. That would give a chance for anyone present, including the attacker, to react before the permanent damage was done. It would also give a chance for last-minute confessions to law enforcement. They used to do that where I grew up, to get teenage drug users who had overdosed to tell the names of their dealers. If they told, they got taken to the hospital. Otherwise, who knows what kind of delays could happen?
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Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 09:16 AM |
all this argument for player vs player pickpocketing is fine....if you want to have a server where there is contention and suspicion.
i thought the point of vives was to avoid that.
i am even hearing such stuff from admins. can we have clarity on this point please?
aria says....only do it if everyone involved enjoys. meaning, consensual, just like PvP. is she the only one? |
But long ago he rode away
And where he dwelleth none can say |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 09:59 AM |
| Everybody will never enjoy the same thing. |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 11:35 AM |
| nobody will ever agree, for everyone person that wants Pick pocketing there is another person that does not want it done to them. For everyone that enjoys fighting against another playing because it is more of a challange there is someone who does not want to. If there was a -1 limit tho then pvp would not be bad at all, unless you were out in the middle of the woods all alone and nobody was there to help you of course. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 11:42 AM |
Personally, I really don't like being pickpocketed. Things are quite hard to come by on Vives sometimes, often with a great deal of personal effort, and then to have someone come and take it right from you is incredibly frustrating.
If things ere pickpocketed, I would prefer there to be some method of getting the stolen item back. |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 11:52 AM |
While consent and mutual enjoyment is always nice, we need to draw some lines now and then. Since PP'ing is simply a skill, I do not see how it can be forbidden or heavily restricted, IF IT IS ALL PROPERLY ROLEPLAYED.
Someone who looses an item to a thief, they can get a message they lost an item. Any thief caught red-handed, the question is what to do with them. Asking your item back, normally won't work, since a player has no other means to execute pressure or persuasive manner other then showing the culprit the flat end of his weapon, or sharp edge for that matter.
So going for the player kill is definitely something that is not supported and a case where you would REALLY need the other's consent. And if you feel you have a right to do something, but the person you want to subject your malice towards, disagrees, that is why you can contact DM's and the staff. To sort these things out, and see if perhaps eventually we can set a standard.
Personally I am with Fen, emphasizing a thief can PP so he should be able to. Just as long as said thief shall refrain from OOC whining when he gets caught, reported to the justice department and when he will be mercilessly hunted down, trialed and even risking a death penalty should his crimes be grave enough. And let there be no mistake, a death penalty is not a penalty you will revive from, nor respawn.
And before this starts a discussion about not being able to play evil characters, nonsense. Vives knows a few cities, each city has their own background and laws. Anyone breaking these laws, be they GOOD, EVIL or NEUTRAL, they will suffer for it. It is not the justice departments fault players who play evil tend to believe they need to obviously break laws in city areas. If you translate your EVIL alignment in those terms, personally I find that a bit shallow. For then it is almost inevitable that we get this huge GOOD VS EVIL war, since thats simply what they should do, hate the opposite alignment! Thank god it is not that simple and that there is and should be a great deal of subtlety. Your alignment serves as a basis, like when you are offered choices in life you get to argue based on your alignment the most logical way for your char. This does not entail letting your alignment dictate your every action into the greatest detailed extremes.
The latter creates the stereo-type characters which people seem to hate so very much. For in essence all we see then are criminals committing all sorts of crime so obvious they mean their own swift demise. Go talk to the evil gods, and learn why they hold out so much longer, intrigue, schemes, plotting, biding your time, allies, sneaky ways, etc. etc.
Or be an evil orc and just ram everything you see into oblivion and preach stupidity as an excuse, those are the coolest so far ;). Huzzah orcies!
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 12:38 PM |
| *Tasra knocks an arrow* Here orcie orcie orcie |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 01:02 PM |
I'm with rul and fen here.
Another component of the entire PP situation that is often overlooked is how the victim RPs the incident. In most cases, it is the victim of the PP that RPs it all wrong. Either they attack immediately without even bothering to try to RP the item back, or they immediately launch into ooc mode.
We all know there are some irritating game mechanics aspects of pickpocketing. However, in Vives, we have nice, mature RPers, so we should be able to handle this. Bottom line: if the attempt was undetected, as a good RPer the victim has, IMO, the responsibility to RP it properly. In some cases this means that they have to accept the loss of what was stolen.
I'm a fairly consistent player of rogues. Most of my rogues don't PP, preferring burglary and stealthy fun to flat ripping people off. However, if I do PP I do it in RP terms.
These are my opinions on how PPing should be played
Thief: Be realistic... Pickpocketing is a one-shot deal. Real pickpockets don't hit their victims more than once, success or failure. It's just frankly stupid to do so, and really bad from an RP sense.
Now, while some would say that the pickpocket does this to make a living, well, IRL I guess so. but in this world I see PP as a RP device. If properly played, it adds some nice tension, and in some cases, even comedy to the game.
Victim: If you get pickpocketed, and you detect the attempt, don't just try to kill the fella. RP with him! Often the situation can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction in a non-lethal way, and with a lot of RP fun.
If you get picked, and you don't detect it, that sucks, but you still need to ignore the "item loss" message. Wasn't it fixed in SoU anyway? I don't think you see it anymore, do you? Anyway, I know it sucks to lose something with a lot of value, but you still should RP properly.
I think Aria has done some nifty scripting to help with losing items of significant value... maybe we can incorporate her widget?
If we can also use the "stolen" property of items more, so that merchants won't buy stolen stuff, or only selected merchants buy it, at reduced rates, we can take a lot of the greed motivation out of pickpocketing.
If we're good RPers, and we are, we can easily deal with thievery and have fun with it at the same time. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 01:29 PM |
I wasn't meaning to imply that I though PvP should be the response to PP, BTW. Just commenting that the -1 limit was a nice idea overall. But as I said, it was a knee-jerk reaction. There may very well may be new problems that it creates. That is usually the case with any solution.
I don't think of PP per se as evil, however PP something off someone that they need to live in the environment under which the act is committed I do perceive as evil. That's the difference between the two alignment axes. It's _unlawful_ to PP 10,000 gold off someone carrying 30,000, but they aren't going to suffer from it. It's _evil_ to PP something off someone that may cause them to die for the lack of it, no matter how small the monetary value of the item.
I've never played a PP in NWN, so I don't know what a thief sees when they get ready to try. I did have to laugh inside OOC though once when Loli was being followed closely by a halfing and he went "Cor!" for no obvious reason. I know she didn't lose anything but I suspect he saw the gold she was carrying at that time and fairly drowned in his own drool. *evil laugh* She's not carrying that much anymore though, so don't expect to see that ever again. *wink* |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 01:54 PM |
Perhaps another option for realisms sake is to simply steal gold or small items. Aria made a script long ago that was a custom PP system using a widget I believe, that could steal a certain amount of gold or an item of equal value based on the total skill checks. This allowed for rogues to steal better things as they had a higher skill, while still not getting ludicrous as stealing axes, pot helms, and the shield off your arm without being noticed.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 02:12 PM |
How would this be dealt with in a PnP session?
The answers:
(i) if a character steals from another character for the sake of good fun, both DM and the players are Ok with that. If the item in question is one of significance to the victim (see slink's response above for definition of 'significance'; I'd add in emotional attachment there), the thief would have the decency of returning the item (otherwise it would be classified as (ii), vide infra.)
(ii) if a character steals from the other for the sake of obtaining the item, he'd probably be denied chips and MountainDew for a loooong time (or any goodies, IC or otherwise; and possibly never get invited back), because he's been a pain that no one wants to play with.
--
Using that as a guideline, here are my proposed responses for each of the above cases.
(i) - item goes with thief if it's mutually consented, not if otherwise. If it's not consented, it's to be classified as (ii).
(ii) - no one wants to play with a pain-in-the-backside - deny them pop-n-chips, or any IC/otherwise goodies, or never invite back, depending on the circumstances.
--
Does that sound reasonable, if not, why not? In coming to an answer, I'd like to remind you the very foundation that Vives is built for and upon: that it is meant to be fostering both a comfortable and friendly environment that everyone can come in and have a good time; realism is a means to that end, not an end in itself.
Bearing this in mind, I'd urge you to read Fen/Rul/Landru's posts again. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Pick Pocketing
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 02:34 PM |
grin...ok, ruldain....but you have to even up the playing field.
in pnp, there are good defenses...a mage can magic mouth his important wand, a cleric can put a holy mark on things, etc. you can hire bodyguards. oh my, you can even have *secure storage* for valuables...what a concept!
in nwn, there is nothing available (thank you, boiware) except a high spot score. if i gotta carry every blessed thing i own around and i can't outright kill a pickpocket...hardly sporting, gents, but ok....then i serve notice right here and now that i consider any approach closer than 20 meters uninvited as a hostile act.  equivalent to a being menaced with a drawn weapon.
similarly, when i cast a hold monster, and bind the felon in RP chains (cuz we ain't got anything that really does this in the game), he gotta go along peacefully to the hoosegow...cuz there is no way to compel it in the game. the two times such a situation has occured to *me*..by which i mean one requiring dm intervention to settle it correctly...there hasn't been one around.
any violation of *that* ...meaning RP'ing the being caught and helpless, or whatever... outta be sanctioned by the admins. let me see you back it up, cuz i note hans wilhelm is till running around free, or was this morning. i already rp'ed his arrest, all legal and proper...what, you didn't autojug him? tsk.
i am being flip here to point out that you are setting up for yourselves an admin nightmare. if you are gonna *enforce* the RP you mention...ok, fine and dandy. but i have not seen it happen yet. all it takes is one griefer <edit> running around to
screw up the illusion.
Edit note: Removed what could be construed as griefing accusations against specific players from this philosophical discussion. Let's try not to turn this into a big finger-point. ;)
~Landru |
But long ago he rode away
And where he dwelleth none can say |
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