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Forums  > Game-World Feedback  > Game-World Feedback  > Why Mighty on a crossbow?     Display using: Flat View Threaded View   Oldest to newest Newest to oldest Previous Thread :: Next Thread   Author  Thread: Why Mighty on a crossbow?  BKatt Joined: 12 Oct 2004 Total Posts: 640 Send PM   Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 16 Jan 2006 08:24 PM I just made my first crossbow today.. hooray! then I looked at the properties and started wondering. Why would a crossbow have Mighty? so that... the STR modifier can be added to your attack because you were able to squeeze the trigger really hard? I don't understand. Seriously. This is not a flame in any way.. I'm honestly curious about this. Cora uses a light crossbow... because a shortbow just doesn't fit. (And neither does a heavy crossbow for that matter, but that is neither here nor there) The nature of a crossbow should mean that you can do more damage than a regular bow with it... thus the 1d8 of damage a light crossbow does over the 1d6 a shortbow does. The drawback to that being that you get only one shot a round with a crossbow as opposed to the shortbow which increases with BAB (think I'm getting this right. if not, let me know) Unless you take the Rapid Reload feat which will give you one extra attack (at much higher character level I believe. says it can be taken when you have a +2 BAB... but you dont see any benifits (ie. the extra shot) untill you are somewhere in your teens.. I think. anyway, back to what I was on about) So... if you are a weak character, it makes sense that you would use a crossbow to get the little extra punch it grants you over a shortbow. Then you get a crossbow with Mighty +2 on it... Why? Isn't it completely useless to have Mighty on a crossbow if your STR modifier is 0? And really, how could you rationalize a crossbow doing extra damage if you are stronger? All it takes to fire one, is to be able to c0ck the thing, (which by game mechanics, anyone can do, regardless of their STR) and then squeeze the trigger... and if you were stronger, you would just have less trouble cocking it.. but that should in no way transfer to how fast/hard the bow shoots. Thoughts? [Edited because there really ARE legitimate uses of the work C0ck... and you never see anyone rooster their crossbow *smirks*] "I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt My characters n portraits  Tasra www.bgmod.com Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Total Posts: 1364 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 16 Jan 2006 08:32 PM Well, if it were modelled after the English windlass crossbow, you could winch it back further. If it were more of a goat-leg crossbow, I could let it slide on getting it properly set on the first try. What you could theoretically have is a NwN special crossbow with something like a windlass rail, where you can pull it back to different lengths, and where you pull the trigger the whole thing drops so chord of the crossbow didn't get caught each time down the way.  Veran Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Total Posts: 718 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 16 Jan 2006 08:57 PM And really, how could you rationalize a crossbow doing extra damage if you are stronger? All it takes to fire one, is to be able to c0ck the thing, (which by game mechanics, anyone can do, regardless of their STR) and then squeeze the trigger... and if you were stronger, you would just have less trouble cocking it.. but that should in no way transfer to how fast/hard the bow shoots. Well, if you're going to consider it from THAT vantage point, the only reason a bow would have mighty is if it DID require a higher strength to use, and everyone knows that even a gnome with 6 con can pull a composite bow in NWN, So that's already attributed to the faults of Mighty implementation to the system in general. You can go about this 2 ways. You can rationalize it based on game mechanics (IE its' not fair that Longbows could have strength influenced damage, and that crossbows wouldn't, or even, on a more relevant matter, that the craftable Bows are going to be better/different than the craftable crossbows.) Then, there is also the case of longranged weaponry attributes... lacking strength damage bonuses, AND damage bonuses (since they are used in ammunition, IE Arrows +2, arrows of 1d6 fire, instead of weapon with +2 enchantment bonus, or weapon of +1d6 damage fire) There are very few ways you can construct BETTER long ranged weaponry, other than adding an outside damage factor (Mighty comes from a character, and is just a limit on the strength damage you can add to your longranged attacks, Melee weapons, and throwing weapons having Mighty + infinity already.) So, if you do the math, in order for a ranged combatant with 14 strength, to do the same damage with their small bow as their handaxe, a small bow +2(to attack)with mighty +2(strength 14 = +2) with +2 arrows(to damage) would be the same combined packaged effect as a handaxe +2 (Enchancement=+2 attack bonus and damage)(Meleeweapons already have infinite mighty, +2 more damage) Both of these choices would create a weapon that is 1-6+2 (x3) with +2 damage (Slashing for the axe, piercing for the arrows) The handaxe allows use of a shield, the bow allows use of long ranged advantage, and rapid shot. *Shrug* That's the mighty system, Considering a very good amount of the better non-sneak damage numbers ever attained in NWN is usually strength damage added to a melee weapon, the bow suffers a fairly big damage penalty in exchange for the convenience of ranged warfare. Is this paralell with it's RL comparisons? I think not. An arrow will punch straight through plate mail, in RL the disadvantage of ranged warfare is missing the target, especially at range (which NWN does not factor in), As well as large disadvantages to ammunition supplies, and encumberance, as well as the unwieldliness of a bow in close ranged warfare (Such as the lack of a weapon and/or shield) *shrugs* *Shrugs some more* The second method is rationalizing through... uhh.. RPed common sense or something.... a bow with mighty might be a bow that is really heavy to swing around, and aim, but if you're strong enough, and able to fire it properly can do some serious damage. If you're not doing that serious damage (because you're not strong enough) maybe it's because while using it, you only crank it back half way, or have a terrible time maneuvering the thing in the middle of an engagement, because you're a 3 freaking feet tall midget. Personally, if I were a strong RPer, and someone who knows something about game mechanics, I'd just find a weapon to use without all the fancy mighty statistics I'm not taking advantage of, OR I'd adjust to take advantage of them properly (Looking for strength equipment, drinking potions everyday, summon the strength of bulls to coarse through your limbs, looking for Divine Power(Which also happens to be the spell)... etc. etc.) Take it your own way. I take it both. I'm fine with crossbows having mighty, and I could have a gazillion complaints about the logic of the mechanics of NWN, (Hell, let's start with full plate making you harder to hit) but I won't , because it's just a system we all agree on, and use, and as long as we're on the same page, we can use it to translate our ideas into that system, and use it as a medium for portraying our ideas, whether they be midget snipers or Golem catapults. (As in, a Ballistically inclined Golem, not a Catapult that launches golems) -Cheers The Legacy Saga  DiabloStan Joined: 30 Jul 2003 Total Posts: 653 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 16 Jan 2006 09:02 PM As far as armour goes, no armour should increase AC but offer damage reduction. Magical enhancements of course should offering AC, but not the armour itself. - [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas.  Tasra www.bgmod.com Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Total Posts: 1364 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 16 Jan 2006 09:09 PM See, in 2nd Ed., we don't even have "Mighty" But from a logistics sense, I'd go with a dropping tray and a windlass. (Remember, a goatleg crossbow doesn't allow you to only partially winch it back, it's either all or nothing). Generally, in my complete and utter honest oppinion, 3rd Ed. is junk. I tout 2nd Ed. so much because it was really just a massive, massive expansion for 1st :)  Xerah Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Total Posts: 564 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 16 Jan 2006 09:14 PM This should answer your why questions. Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth  renter6 Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Total Posts: 684 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 16 Jan 2006 11:32 PM This should answer your why questions. From there link: "If you've played the game through more than one edition, you know that certain aspects of the rules have stayed the same for many years, and that those features help to define the game as D&D. If the point at issue is one of those rules, you may not be able to explain the reasoning in any objective or consistent manner. Sometimes you have to just appeal to tradition and let it go at that." Awesome. Listen to your friend Tevye: "Its tradition!" "What are you talking about?" "I'm talking about dying." "What's that supposed to mean?" "It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever." -Burt Reynolds, "The End"  renter6 Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Total Posts: 684 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 16 Jan 2006 11:33 PM Ack. Pardon my double-click. "What are you talking about?" "I'm talking about dying." "What's that supposed to mean?" "It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever." -Burt Reynolds, "The End"  BKatt Joined: 12 Oct 2004 Total Posts: 640 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 17 Jan 2006 01:38 AM Alright.. the first explaination given by Tasra was enough for me really... What you could theoretically have is a NwN special crossbow with something like a windlass rail, where you can pull it back to different lengths, and where you pull the trigger the whole thing drops so chord of the crossbow didn't get caught each time down the way. So someone who was stronger could c0ck it back further. That makes sense. As for Verans post... don't take this the wrong way, but it really just gave me a headache. heh.. (I am not one who is able to keep up with all the rules and use them to my advantage... I usualy just have a basic understanding.. make some assumptions.. and play by the seat of my pants) However, it wasn't all in vain... the suggestion at the end to use STR potions or spells to "get the full potential out of your crossbow," is very helpful.. and if going with the windlass rail idea.. I can see it as, if I take a STR potion, I will be able to c0ck it further back. Good deal. And the link.. well.. that can be pretty much summed up by saying "I'm the mommy, thats why" / "I'm the DM, thats why" / "those are the rules, deal with it" And I am perfectly fine with "dealing with it"... and think that I fall into the catagory of "more often than not, people ask questions simply because they wonder about the answers." Thanks for the responses. "I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt My characters n portraits  Tasra www.bgmod.com Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Total Posts: 1364 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 17 Jan 2006 06:52 AM Yus! Historian wins again!  G_Kinkaid Joined: 15 Oct 2003 Total Posts: 131 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 17 Jan 2006 09:17 AM Great thread Arrows do not beat hardened plate though. At about 25 meters the head will get through but won't go deep enough to beat the padding underneath much less do any damage. A good crossbow will go a little deeper though. Archery shines when the air is saturated with arrows by many.. the odds of rolling 20's goes way up, there's not much worrying about in the way of missing left to right. But once you've closed ranks on the archers.... it's clobberin time :D My lamentable plight... I am calamity. fire... burning....agony... sultry shivers of a dark essence why am i tortured with this nihilistic existence? -Maddox  Barnas Joined: 17 Aug 2003 Total Posts: 3322 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 17 Jan 2006 09:51 AM Yeah, plate armor beats a longbow any day of the weak. *cough, splutter, Agincourt :P* ... wait, that was mostly caused by mud and rain bogging down people in armor rather than arrows actually going through the armor. But feh, details! The longbows beat the armor, I say! It happened! -Barnas  pdwalker Joined: 08 Jan 2004 Total Posts: 5692 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 17 Jan 2006 10:57 AM From a mechanics point of view, why make crossbows at all if the bows are always better? Why even use a crossbow when you could use a bow instead? I made the crossbows so they would be somewhat on par with the bows to allow for at least the possibility that someone would actually want to use one. In fact, I made them ever so slightly better. As for an IG reason, well, as was previously said; you can crank them further back using the winch, the crossbow has several notches you can use depending on how strong you are to pull it back, the crossbow is "bigger" than normal. Whatever tickles your fancy. That's what I love about fantasy games, you can make stuff up :) - Paul PS: The western crossbow was a rather sad device. Simple and effective, but very low tech. The Chinese had mastered the art of crossbows about 700 years before the West did and had such neat little things like complex trigger mechanisms, useful sights, safeties, magazines for their repeating crossbows, etc, etc.... In fact they were still using them when the European powers sailed up the pearl river in their boats and blew the crap out of them with their guns and cannons (which is another story as all the military advances the european powers used were invented by the Chinese). Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly. -- "...Cause he mixes it with love And makes the world taste good." -- <@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.  WickedArtist Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Total Posts: 435 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 17 Jan 2006 01:38 PM *takes in Benny's role* Pffft, Crossbows. Why use a crossbow when you can use a perfectly good longbow? Humans... WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf. WickedArtist: A christmas elf! Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o Gasp! Scandalous!!!  Tasra www.bgmod.com Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Total Posts: 1364 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 17 Jan 2006 03:23 PM Agincourt was definatly a victorious day for longbows. A good bodkin head will easily pierce plate if it strikes plumb when shot from a longbow. Realize the pull on the bows was so intense that skeletons of longbowmen that we've found have been deformed. And as for crossbows, the thing that made them so useful is the lack of training they took. (The same reason is why muskets eventually took over, very easy to train with). Case in point: A longbowman would have to be trained from a very young age (7 - 12), whereas to learn to properly use a musket, march, bayonet, fire four shots in a minute, 3 months. For a crossbow, it would be something fairly similar. (Though I'm not so familiar with the training techniques of the Geonese (s/p?) and thus not familiar with crossbow training in general) If you wanted to make the mod more historically accurate, you'd make the longbow weapon proficiency something you could only take until your later levels, and the crossbow weapon proficiency something you could take early on, and then make the longbow more powerful and versitle. Remember this, with a longbow, you can unstring it in bad weather, which will prevent it from stretching and thus weakening. With a crossbow, you can't do that, so they ultimatly weaken over time. Also, the crossbow is really used for a flat-line trajectory and thus doesn't have the range of a longbow, where the longbow can truely be used flat-line or arched. To sum up: Longbow > Crossbow, but only if you have the time to learn to do it. But then again, I'd take a good percussion cap rifle any day of the week :P  Bolgryn Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Total Posts: 165 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 18 Jan 2006 08:28 PM "And as for crossbows, the thing that made them so useful is the lack of training they took. (The same reason is why muskets eventually took over, very easy to train with). Case in point: A longbowman would have to be trained from a very young age (7 - 12), whereas to learn to properly use a musket, march, bayonet, fire four shots in a minute, 3 months. For a crossbow, it would be something fairly similar. (Though I'm not so familiar with the training techniques of the Geonese (s/p?) and thus not familiar with crossbow training in general) If you wanted to make the mod more historically accurate, you'd make the longbow weapon proficiency something you could only take until your later levels, and the crossbow weapon proficiency something you could take early on, and then make the longbow more powerful and versitle." That explains why most non-fighter, or non-elven characters always have training with a crossbow. It's under the Simple Weapons Proficiency, while bows are under Martial Weapons Prof., ja? CHOO CHOO! - - - - - - Bereil Yadashem. Markus Mortriety, Herald of Novus Aristi.  Tasra www.bgmod.com Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Total Posts: 1364 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 18 Jan 2006 08:37 PM Yah, but weapon proficiencies are buggered up as a whole. All the weapons Bioware can think of do NOT fall under one of three categories (Simple Martial or Exotic, if I can recall). Learning to use a longsword is NOT the same as a longbow, IMHO. I much prefer the weapon proficiencies of 1st and 2nd Ed. PnP, where you can take ONE weapon proficiency every handful of levels. (I'd look it up and give examples of how long it takes each class to get a weapon proficiency, but I'm too lazy.)  Vindicta Meus Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Total Posts: 121 Send PM   Re: Why Mighty on a crossbow? Posted: 18 Jan 2006 10:56 PM Weapon Proficiencies*************Nonweapon Proficiencies Class*****Initial****#Levels*****Initial*****#Levels Warrior*****4********3**********3**********3 Wizard******1********6**********4*********3 Priest*******2********4**********4**********3 Rogue******2********4**********3**********4 Good old 2nd edition proficiency madness. I didn't realize until just now how badly rogues were treated in this respect. Do not ask of them questions. You will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know. 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