|
Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 03:29 PM |
First of all, I am posting here because I don't want to necessarily be seen as making a formal suggestion to the development team to change anything...I just want to "air my grievance."
Basically, I'm wondering what sort of levels the designers and builders of Vives would like to see the users reach and how long should it take? I know that power gaming is frowned upon and I don't think I could ever be accused of it, but roughly how many hours in game should I expect to spend before reaching, say, level 10 with, say, a cleric? I suppose this would depend a lot on one's playing style, but would anyone care to hazard a guess presuming that the person playing the cleric splits their time relatively evenly between exploration, crafting, and roleplaying (not that these activities are mutually exclusive), and also assume that only half the time is spent in a party.
Perhaps I should just get to my point. When I logged in to Vives last night (Sept. 9), I was one of only a couple people on at the time and I planned to continue developing my character through crafting and exploration. Since I was by myself, I can only explore so far in and around Midor, Paws, and Port Royale before I run into something I would be better off avoiding (highway men, a large group of ettercaps, the pack leader). Basically, I'm annoyed (at myself and at the XP system) that I spent 3-4 hours running around trying to craft and gain what little experience and gold I could only to lose all I gained in one or two unfortunate death-repawns.
I feel like I'm in a catch-22 situation. I need to explore and do quests to be experienced enough to explore and do quests. Maybe the solution to this is to develop more party relationships in the game, but often there are either very few people in the game or we have differing agendas and, frankly, the PHB seems to promise lots of single player fun can be had in the world of Vives. Maybe I just want to be by myself on a given day.
My main question, though, remains the one I asked above...how many hours should I expect it will take me to level up? Should my primary entertainment be talking in character to other players and hoping a DM throws a little XP my way? Can I expect to be nickled and dimed at every turn in casting, defeating adversaries, and crafting? I mean, when crafting, it seriously takes about 30-60 realife minutes to gain about 30 XP. Gawd!
I know there is a wide range of player expectations among the registered users of Vives and some people have strong opinions about subjects such as whether people should be able to rp elves or drow and showing proper repect to the mythologies and histories of the greater DnD world. I appreciate that to a large extent, but I might as well come clean and admit that I don't want to wait 400 hours to reach level 15. If that's the mission of Vives, I just have to ask, "Where's the fun in that?"
Maybe it's just that I don't have THAT much free time in my life - or maybe I have only limited experience with how much fun Vives can be when lots of people and DMs are logged on and active etc etc...I'm open to explanations...I'm just trying to clear up some of my own expectations. |
Need itam! |
|
  |
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 04:34 PM |
I've logged in excess of 80 hours (I've lost track but you can check the Dirtnap League for the exact figure) with Loli Dankirk, and she is Level 7 multiclassed. I've enjoyed all but one day that I have played so far, enough so that I gave it another chance after that one day and decided to stay. It does take time to get the EP, but I have the time right now due to circumstances. I would say that if you are short on time that you should download modules and play single-player, because Vives is time intensive by the choice of the creators. Perhaps someone has created a downloadable module that features the crafting system?
Don't think I'm trying to get you to leave, BTW. It's just that there's no point in someone playing a game that frustrates them. I'm totally in agreement with you there. That's one of the reasons that I will never buy a game that is only multiplayer, without a singleplayer mode. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 06:24 PM |
I'll just quickly thow in my personal expectations, and I dont know if they are in line with the admins or not. But I feel that after several months, you be in the neighborhood of level 10-12. This can be done more quickly if you play more often than most. I also don't expect to see many people over level 15 (in fact, I believe there is still only the one character that is). From my experience, I have three characters. One is level 12, and I belive it took about 2 or 3 months to get that far, also, that character benifited from heavy DM interaction during some play testing of areas. Another character is level eight. I dont play this one quite often, though it has been around since around April. My third, and most recent character has just reached level 7 and I have been playing her for about two months now.
|
~Alosynth
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 07:46 PM |
I will share my experience as well. I have been playing this mod with the same char since waay early in the process, probably 4 months or so at this point. That char sits at level 12 now. Realistically, this is about the median level I think we are thrying to get to. Not to say you could not advance past that level, but to do so would be extremely difficult, and most of the EP gained to do so would come from Roleplay rewards given by a DM.
Additionally, death in Vives plays a huge factor in advancement. After one or two respawns, you can expect to have an extrememly difficult time gaining levels, as the EP is non-replenishable by character. This is by design... death is not something to be taken lightly.
I'd say with that level 12 character I mentioned, probably 40% of his EP has come from roleplay rewards. I would not expect somebody that was a hack/slash loner (not saying anybody here is that type) to advance very far.
As Vives grows, more players will be on at any given moment to group with, and the best way to find a group to adventure with is to add some structure to it. Start a group. Set a time to play as that group. The DM staff supports this endeavor and a DM will adopt your group and provide questing fun. |
Question Authority! |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 08:20 PM |
As Vives grows, more players will be on at any given moment to group with, and the best way to find a group to adventure with is to add some structure to it. Start a group. Set a time to play as that group. The DM staff supports this endeavor and a DM will adopt your group and provide questing fun.
Actually this is a *great* point that I'm surprised that we don't mention more! There's already a Thursday evening (EST) group that plays fairly regularly. You should definetly try to get one going on a regular schedule. Since it's a well-known event, so to speak, then I'd imagine you'd get more people and DMs that really make an effort to be online at that time.
Here's the forum where you could get started.
-Q |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 08:50 PM |
Additionally, death in Vives plays a huge factor in advancement. After one or two respawns, you can expect to have an extrememly difficult time gaining levels, as the EP is non-replenishable by character. This is by design... death is not something to be taken lightly.
Would it be fair to interpret this to mean that if I've respawned my character more than twice already, I may already be set up for disappointment? I'm not sure I understand the phrase "the EP is non-replenishable by character" in this context.
As Vives grows, more players will be on at any given moment to group with, and the best way to find a group to adventure with is to add some structure to it. Start a group. Set a time to play as that group. The DM staff supports this endeavor and a DM will adopt your group and provide questing fun.
I will certainly bear this in mind before I give up and go back to single-player. However, I would say that if this is true:
I'd say with that level 12 character I mentioned, probably 40% of his EP has come from roleplay rewards. I would not expect somebody that was a hack/slash loner (not saying anybody here is that type) to advance very far.
Then the Player's Handbook could use some editing because it does play up the idea that there are hours and hours of single-player campaigns in Vives. Or maybe there are but only for those who have gained enough experience through good RP or attracting the attention of DMs to survive them.
And by the way, I'm not even going to think about bitching about attention from DM(s) for RP because I've actually had quite a bit of it already in spite of the fact that I'm relatively new and not particularly good at it. Perhaps it helps to be related to a famous and beautiful elven bard. :) |
Need itam! |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 09:06 PM |
Well, actually probably one or two respawns is survivable, but many respawns are certainly going to put a crimp in your style, so venture carefully. What I mean when I say non-replenishable EP is that if you've already earned EP for doing a particular thing, you are not going to earn it again.
There are hours and hours of stuff to do in Vives, even if you're alone. They just don't necessarily provide gobs of EP for doing them. What I was trying to say is that one should not expect to advance from lvl 1 to 12 without Roleplaying. To get to some of the other stuff, you'll need to spend some time RPing to make that extra level for survivability.
We don't expect every player to be an uber roleplayer, all it takes is a committment to staying in character to reap the rewards.I've watched you play myself, and you ain't that bad. |
Question Authority! |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 09:37 PM |
Statistically & objectively, it takes normal characters about 2 hours to reach level 3, 6 hours to reach level 4, 15-20 hours to reach level 5, 30-40 hours to reach level 6, 50-60 hours to reach level 7, about 120 hours to reach level 8, and about 300 hours to reach level 10.
By level 7, characters should be able to travel most overland places singly or in pair, and be able to escape from more dangerous places.
--
For comparison purposes, I would point you to other server-based modules (or, 'PW's). All of the ones I have seen (and I do believe I've seen alot) either have stringent control - literally level 2 after about 40 hours of gameplay - or runaway levels (20 hours to level 20).
--
If you have seen other worlds with a more desirable spread (that adequately caters for both the casual twice-weekly player and the 40-hr/week player), do let us know
|
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 09:59 PM |
I am not a normal person and I have not been here long--I should get that out of the way first. With that said I am going to go the other way and say that my main concern is not that experience is given out to slow, but that it is given out possibly even to fast if you are going to consider the long haul.
--As the server grows if it is trying to grow there will be more and more players who spend a great deal of hours online playing. 300 hours seems like a lot to me and most, but many will spend this time in a short amount of months and more high level players will become apparent. I would not suggest things as stringent as 40 for level 2, however after level 7 or so things may need to slow down considerably to prevent a year from now there being more 15+ level characters than low level characters.
--Perminent Death in one form or another might be a way to solve this. I know the penalties do hurt people (have they gone higher than 5%), but in the end characters die. That is part of the challenge.... and the way you die is what your legend will eventually read. This is a way to keep progression higher really, as death weeds out high level PCs. Perhaps a halfway point, respwaning with low penalties near towns or busy roads. Higher penalties (say it is longer before you are rescued) a bit farther away from towns. Perminent death when you are in places that you likely would not be saved from..... Remember your friends IC can always do a rescue campaign and bring you back to life. :)
I anycase, there it is. Lynch me now.... BTW I am a casual player for the most part, certainly not fourty hours a week, and "Statistically & objectively, it takes normal characters about 2 hours to reach level 3" ahhhhh.... been playing like 4 hours and made it to level two.
Oh wait, I roleplayed for like over an hour (two?) of that in a tavern. Big Thanks to Calmeir and Shaz'jen as they made my day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 10:26 PM |
Statistically & objectively, it takes normal characters about 2 hours to reach level 3, 6 hours to reach level 4, 15-20 hours to reach level 5, 30-40 hours to reach level 6, 50-60 hours to reach level 7, about 120 hours to reach level 8, and about 300 hours to reach level 10.
By level 7, characters should be able to travel most overland places singly or in pair, and be able to escape from more dangerous places.
Well these numbers actually fit pretty well with my experience, so I guess I can stop my sobbin' - and to think, I only have another 100 hours until I'll be free to come and go as I please. Phew!
For comparison purposes, I would point you to other server-based modules (or, 'PW's). All of the ones I have seen (and I do believe I've seen alot) either have stringent control - literally level 2 after about 40 hours of gameplay - or runaway levels (20 hours to level 20).
--
If you have seen other worlds with a more desirable spread (that adequately caters for both the casual twice-weekly player and the 40-hr/week player), do let us know
Well I can't really comment on any of this because this is the only PW I've tried. I've certainly been amazed by what I've seen in Vives - more than amazed. I can only imagine how much effort has gone into this. Not something I would even attempt, but I'm glad somebody did. But enough shameless asskissing - there are no experience rewards for that that I'm aware of. |
Need itam! |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 10 Sep 2003 10:52 PM |
But enough shameless asskissing - there are no experience rewards for that that I'm aware of.
Hell, I'll giva ya 6... no 7 XP for that! *nods knowingly* Yep, that's the easiest dang XP you'll get around here alright... :P
-Q |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 11 Sep 2003 03:07 PM |
Good points folks.....
As we continue to "grow" we will be adding in more scripted Quests and areas/monsters etc that will aid advancement a tad. I have several of both that I am working on when I can (busy in RL at present moving jobs and house hunting :P).
Some of these are low/mid level..... some are also higher level areas, as at present chars over lvll 12 when grouped only really have demons and Dragons to "whack" per se (The Demons are being erm... worked on, their "home" that is).
Anyways I guess what I am saying is that we will never stand still as regards Quests etc... and these -should- help folks ou a bit, alongside the new areas and whatnot.
Cheers
Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 11 Sep 2003 04:14 PM |
Along the lines of permanent death:
I kinda like the idea, harsh as it is, but a few things could go a long way to make it an enjoyable element for all:
1: when a character reaches below zero hps, no matter how negative (i.e. 20hp player takes 50hps from dragon breath), they go instantly to negative 1, and bleed at the rate of 1 per round until stabalized.
2: stabalization occurs either one of two ways, or both, depending on what the communitiy likes: either through spell, scroll, or healing kit applied by another present pc; or through a constitution check of some sort. Monsters will not attack a neg hp person, but if stabalized, they will be attacked again as long as they are still present.
3: if they player does die (reach neg 10 hps) a "corpse" appears on the ground where they were. This corpse can be picked up by other pc's, the weight being determined by the characters race and strength. All the items either stay with the pc (who is in "limbo" or wherever while they are dead) or gets dropped on the ground with the corpse. The player can either be ressurected by another pc, or the corpse can be taken to a temple where for a fee will be ressurected.
Thus, the only way a player will truely face permadeath is when the entire party is killed, most likely due to foolishness, i.e. running headlong into a dragon's den, or when they venture solo into too dangerous a spot. Even that however, the player has a chance to live. Lets say Joe goes into the wastelands and gets torched by a few fire arrows, there is a good chance another player will wander through shortly after, see the corpse on the ground and decide to carry it back to a temple for ressurection. Corpses would have a certain amount of time before they would decay making ressurection impossible.
Naturally, implementing this system would eliminate the need for xp penalties, and players should advance a bit quicker in level, but will force even more careful play, more cooperation amongst players, and of course, the need to prepare yourself for potential char loss.
Just some idea.
Poki |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 11 Sep 2003 04:49 PM |
Id have to agree with the above statement on Perm death. Given, we all hate to have to respawn...lose a bit of gold and xp...and end up miles from where we last where. But when you really have to worry about your character dying, you tend to put alot more thought into their actions. An example. A few days back, my character stumbled across a location he had never been before. He immediately begain exploring, and wound up laying dead next to a chest that had a trap on it. So I respawned and now all is well. I was adventuring alone at the time, and if there wouldn't be the ability to respawn, my character would be food for the rats. There is absolutely no way my character would try opening locks, let alone wander down a trap door just to see where it went if I had the chance of truly dying. Given, it does take some of the errant adventuring out of the game, but the amount of "realism" it injects well makes up for it. That...and its awful helpful in getting rid of powergamers.
I don't believe this will speed up level gaining. If anything it will slow it down, or have more come from rp than from combat.
My two cents. |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 11 Sep 2003 07:34 PM |
Along the lines of permanent death:
3: if they player does die (reach neg 10 hps) a "corpse" appears on the ground where they were. This corpse can be picked up by other pc's, the weight being determined by the characters race and strength. All the items either stay with the pc (who is in "limbo" or wherever while they are dead) or gets dropped on the ground with the corpse. The player can either be ressurected by another pc, or the corpse can be taken to a temple where for a fee will be ressurected.
Poki
I have always liked this death method, but then again my tastes tend to lead a bit to the HCRish. Some folks don't like to go too far into the HCR kinds of stuff, but I would be behind an implementation like this 100%. We can mitigate the HCR aspect somewhat by leaving possessions on the PC rather than having them drop to the ground. In fact, I would favor removing respawn altogether with this type of death. |
Question Authority! |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 11 Sep 2003 08:08 PM |
I lean towards HCR type stuff with perminent death myself... mostly bcause i remember that even on most servers with these rules death is not that common. PCs tend to travel in groups and get raised. Best thing is a middle ground IMO, say:
--Respawning in towns with the same penalties as now.
--Death with a courpse outside of towns.
Just remember that travelling alone is bad. Also players can talk to DMs if they loose their chaarcter due to lag. I am definately not saying if you die due to lag you should use your character. Perhaps in this case if there is a witness you simply get brought back to life no penalty. if there is not you get brought backl with a penalty. (but don't do it to much, cause you will make the DMs wonder) |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 12 Sep 2003 04:51 AM |
well i'd say the idea of having corpses is pretty nice.. when the char dies he can respawn.. and lose the xp..
or his corpse can be carried (by other party member / PC ) to the temple paying.. i duno.. 10k gold to revive him..
i dont really like the idea of when the hp go below 0 then it is automaticly -1..
what if a lvl 2 char that had 8 hps.. was hitten by a fireball with 60 dmg? i dont think there would be much left of it.. and i am not sure if someone in that kinda position can actually bleed.. =p
anyway.. my opinion..
bring back that thingy that made PCs unable to respawn when getting to -x amount of hps..
and make the 'dead' player leave a corpse.. and if someone take his corpse to the local temple he can be resed from some gold..
i dont think chars should perm die everytime getting to -11.. and when i think about it again, i suggest perm death will be under DMs control.. that will place RIP gems..
after all.. there are times when you die cuz of lags.. and i dont think it is nice to loose a char cuz of a lag..
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 12 Sep 2003 08:07 AM |
I'd like it that we could carry the corpse back to a temple for healing. I would have done that last night, but there was no DM online to make it happen. My dead party member was forced to respawn and loose EP even though we were partying together _and_ asked another party nearby for help. I even RPd it by running to both temples, Port Royale and Midor, and begging the priests on my knees that they should help him. But since there was no DM, there was not even a refusal to be had. I'd have paid, too, although a flat fee of 10K is perhaps a bit high. Maybe it should depend on the level of the dead character?
Oh, and he was dead when he hit the ground: -16 HP. No bleeding to death. I think if the damage is great then the character _can_ immediately have HP less than -1. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 12 Sep 2003 11:56 AM |
My general thoughts on HCR death rules can be summed up to a single word - goodbye. If such draconian measures were brought in in the name of 'good RP', I would be off to find another server, despite the amount I love Vives. I hate it that much. Do you honestly think that staring at your character dead/in the Fugue Plane is fun!? I really don't see how incorporating fear of moving outside of Midor in case you get perma-deathed is going to add to the RP.
Taking the corpse back for healing could be fun, if you were in a party. What if you were stranded on your own, for whatever reason (and not necessarily beacuse you were solo-hacking), or if the place you stumbled into was so deadly that it promptly killed the rest of the people trying to save your backside. Then you have a whole party staring at their lovely dead selves for an hour.
I've argued against such death rules for a LONG time. Ever since NWN came out, I fought my old guild over various death rules, I've challenged HCR builders for wanting you to sit there dead in that dang Fugue Plane for hours on end and believe me, I'll argue with the Vives builders over the same issues as well :P |
- Who needs Epic Levels when you have Epic Eyebrows? |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 12 Sep 2003 01:22 PM |
| LOL, I'm not against your point of view on lone characters or all-dead parties, Pheonix. I would not want respawn removed completely. I heartily agree that leaving my computer logged onto Vives for hours on end in the hope that someone who cared might stumble across my character's body would be waste of a lot of things, not least my computer time since I can't multitask NWN in any reliably stable fashion. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 12 Sep 2003 01:35 PM |
Hmm... Perhaps keep the respawn, but have it be 7% exp, and a little more gold as well, and then have the ability to carry corpses back to the temple to be resurrected, which could incur a 4% exp penalty and cost whomever is bringing the body back a certain amount per level of the one to be raised. That way, you have both of those options. Hrmmm... Yeah... ok, that's all my input. If I come up with anything else i'll let you know.
-Calmeir |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 12 Sep 2003 01:40 PM |
HCR death rules
Potentially dumb question, but is HCR an acronym or just short-hand for hardcore?
Another potentially unanswerable question: How many of the active characters in Vives right now are capable of casting resurrection of another character a) from their own divine magic or b) with a scroll? And how difficult is it to get ones hands on a rez scroll right now?
I'm just wondering how likely it would be that anyone would ever come along able be able to rescue a person if they happen to die alone in the wilderness. The last I died in a party nobody was able to resurrect me anyways, so it was back to the infirmary for me. |
Need itam! |
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 12 Sep 2003 01:44 PM |
HCR stands for Hard Core Rules - aka they try to make things as real as possible I guess one could say.
don't know about that second question, other than one time when I died someone was able to pull out a scroll and rez me. But that was their only rez scroll. So I think those kind of things are a little rare.
-Calmeir |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 12 Sep 2003 01:47 PM |
I personally hate HCR. It can not and will never work in a good way in this game . The nature of the net and the fact its a pc game don't lend itself well to HCR.
For instance .. in PnP there could be a creature after you that obviously couldnt climb. In PnP you could try to climb a nearby tree perch on a limb and fire bolts at it til it leaves. In NWN you just gotta hope you're faster (and of course lag spikes can make you appear in places that in actuality you are not in). This is just one example of why HCR is good for PnP and will never work in NWN and likely any other pc game EVER.
So many things you can do in PnP that you cannot do in a pc game makes HCR a waste of net space. Not to mention the lag and other issues due to the nature of the net in general. |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Expectations
Posted: 12 Sep 2003 01:58 PM |
Well, I wasn't suggesting that Vives should go full-blown HCR, but there are some ideas that I like that I think can be adapted, like the death corpse. (Of course the original mention of the death corpse here is not mine, but I really like it.)
One compromise that was already mentioned is to have the death corpse, but still allow respawning for those who choose to do so. You still go to the fugue plane and leave a death corpse, but once there, one can choose to respawn and take the associated penalties, or they can leave the corpse there and hope some samaritan drags it back to a temple or infirmary.
We've revised the resting a bit to include some HCRish components, i.e. must have rations and log if not in an inn or temple, time delay between rests. I think there's room for more adaptation in these areas. Certainly not full HCR for Vives... then it's a lot like work and not so much like a game. ;) |
Question Authority! |
|
|
|