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xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 06:48 AM |
Just want to highlight what I think are a few problems with the way experience is handled in Vives.
Firstly, I think casting experience gains need a BIG nerf. I think Rob's new dwarven wizard is the best example of that. (approaching lev 12 after 19 hrs of play) Basically the xp gains available for continually resting and casting spells in a nice friendly tavern where no harm in the world can befall you are too great. Especially when compared to the experience gainable by using that magic for it's actual intent and purpose (ie. defense and offense against hostiles) is so low.
In a "realistic sense" I think more weight should be given to the actual application of spells rather than the simple use of them. (Wizards gain more in leveling than simply spell power, attack bonus, saves, hit points etc, none of which a wizard is training by sitting in a tavern casting protection from cold door draft over and over again) Which basically covers the reasons for my second contention which is that more xp should be given to spell-casting classes for combat in compensation for a lower xp modifier for spellcasting.
I'm certainly not having a go at Rob here. He's a good RPer, but it makes it hard to RP an ongoing situation where one day a char is obviously much weaker than your own, but the next day he's suddenly greatly more powerful than you. It's not realistic and players shouldn't be forced to not play just because their character is levelling too quickly in comparison to the other chars in the world.
A final point is that (from what I've seen of it) the xp gains for the crafting system are a bit inconsistant. Cantor has worked both as a tinker and a gemcutter, but, despite spending much less time gemcutting, (and having the same basic ability at each craft) I've gained a LOT more experience though gemcutting.
In short, I think that non-combat gained xp should, in general, be reduced (except RP xp) and combat gains (for classes that have low combat gains) should be increased due to the dangerous (and thus applicable) aspect of this experience.
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Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 07:04 AM |
I don't know how much I agree with that. I do agree that casting experience, as it lies, if properly applied, can produce dramatic results in the aquisition of experience. I think that base spell casting experience should be based on innate spell level, not on caster level; that makes it far too good. If that were changed, everything would be a lot better.
As for crafting experience, I do agree that crafting experience needs to be "adjusted" not necessarily nerfed. Once you've wandered around and killed everything in the game, you are simply not gaining any more experience unless you're crafting like a fiend, casting like a fiend, or you get a lot of DM attention.
To adjust crafting experience, especially with regard to gemcutting, as I hear it's a boatload of experience, I suggest placing highly valuable gems (and thus, high experience gems) farther away, and protected by more. I also feel that there should be a point of encumbrance added where you simply don't move (or take damage, or keep falling over...). There is no excuse for a 70 pound girl to be able to carry 800 pounds of Sapphire.
Another thing! Mineral deposits should have a limited number of gems available to them.
That's all I can think of. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 07:19 AM |
| Even based on innate spell level it's still way too much xp gained/spell. Vives is still growing so there'll be more mosters to kill and gain xp from and the combat xp gain reductions could be set to a less severe level if players feel there's not enough experience out there. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 09:58 AM |
As per our discuission in IRC, I modified the Wiz Explore XP to 50% and bumped combat to 30%. This will be in the next version to go up... we'll see how it works out.
-Q
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 11:14 AM |
| I think you should only get XP for useful casting of spells... example: destructive spells should only net you XP when you are casting them on a hostile. I don't know if you can assign XP for individual spells, or types of spells, but it would also be kind of neat if you got negative XP for damaging friendlies with spells, or casting on NPCs, signs, etc etc. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 11:20 AM |
I also liked the idea discussed in IRC (I don't know why it wasn't posted though... :P) of only getting spell XP while in combat. This would promote 'risk' to gaining XP. Perhaps a modified version of this... maybe only get half-XP for spells when not in combat.
-Q
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 11:26 AM |
I think each char should have a diffrent rate of xp reducing..
so for example barbarians and fighters will have 5% of xp reduce per monster instead of 10%
while mages will have a higher rate..
I think fighters are suposed to learn their skills by practicing them.. so they get more xp for killing things, cuz they focus on fighting.(which is the 100% xp) but they also got more to learn, their fighting abilities are much higher then mages' so they got more to learn, so they learn more from each kill.. and learn more from x amount of monsters then a mage..
of course it should be modified for all classes...
and maybe even from specific monsters types?
so paladins will get more xp or the xp will reduce slower while killing evil beings? or undeads..
or something like that..
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 11:34 AM |
| Thanks to all for beginning this good discussion on the XP system for casting. Now that we are aware of its potential, the Vives Staff considers it a bug, and we'll consider it a rules offense to exploit it. Please use your casting within the scope of your character, until we get this resolved. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 12:09 PM |
The only problem I see with this is many spells are pre-battle spells, or "utility" spells that the wizard (and cleric) are often good for. I know I prefer utility characters over solo battle gods, so spells like knock, haste (the new one, that affects a radius for all people), bull's strength, mage armor, etc are all out of battle spells, and are just as viable, as are summon monster spells. Such spells (especially if extended, as most buffs are from my cleric) would be penalized if no exp was gotten for combat.
I think the main problem is easy to fix. Many spells that do not increase effectiveness with level (Mage armor, shield, summon monster I, etc) still get refreshed, higher XP when you level, as opposed to a fireball which, per level gained, does more damage. These increasing spells should award more XP, but base, non-changing level spells should NOT give XP. Overall, I believe this should fix our problem and truly balance the spellcasting XP within Vives.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 12:15 PM |
I think the main problem is easy to fix. Many spells that do not increase effectiveness with level (Mage armor, shield, summon monster I, etc) still get refreshed, higher XP when you level, as opposed to a fireball which, per level gained, does more damage. These increasing spells should award more XP, but base, non-changing level spells should NOT give XP. Overall, I believe this should fix our problem and truly balance the spellcasting XP within Vives.
Right idea, possibly, but tedious to actually implement. To award diff XP based upon the nature of the spell would require going to each spell script and adding that code in. With 200+ spells, I'd have to pay Aria a lot of cash to actually do this. Also, from a maintainence perspective, if we ever decide we got the algorithm wrong, we'd have to go back to each of those 200+ script files and make the change.
I wish Bioware had done a better job of structuring the whole spell scripting model, but they didn't.
-Q
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 12:36 PM |
hmm..
but most spells does get better by the level..
maybe nore by doing more dmg or give more defense etc
but the duration is increased by level..
there arent too many spells that are not affected by level..
another thing.. maybe decreasing the xp for mages even more.. and give them some xp for learning new spells?
I think that learning new spell is suposed to raise the wizard's experience more then practicing old spells..
so I'd say decreasing the spell xp per time by.. let say.. 30% - 40% or something like this (for wizards) and giving them bonuses for new learned spells.. so it will balance it.
about sorcs.. if you raise the decreasing rate of spells xp.. and they cant learn new spells..
they might have higher spell using xp.. and maybe higher combat xp?
so wizards will be the 'scholars' and sorcs will be the 'battle mages'
Dens - just thinking |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 03:49 PM |
I think a possible solution to mages getting to much xp per spell cast is to increase the amount of time required between rests. I see all to often, mages blasting through there alotted spells, then taking a quick rest, and five minutes later repeating it. I played on one server where the rest time was nearly 2 hours real time between rests. This made mages strategize their spellcasting a bit more, and in my opinion seemed a bit more realistic. I mean, come on, nobody should be allowed to rest a gazillion times a day. I don't know if 2 hours is necessarily the answer, but personally, I would like to see the time between rests increased.
Poke
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 03:52 PM |
I agree with that. More time between rests is needed. (It's meant to be spells per day, not spells per hour).
Mages with too much rest become very overpowered. And arrogant. Well, mayby overpowered. |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 04:15 PM |
The problem with that is it makes spellchuckers almost impossible to solo, and makes clerics not very party friendly as they use up their heals and buffs extremely fast, without being able to refresh them. While I don't like being able to rest whenever you want, I would only add a minute max RL time to the intervals between resting as it is in Vives.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 04:22 PM |
an extended rest time directly makes clerics at an advantage because they can do far more batteling/exploring then any other class begin they are very "regenerative".
Anyhow me and the rob,pugs, and Q discussed the best possible answer we saw from experience actually playing the charectors. Basically reducing rest time does not fix several issues such as spell stocking, and lack of risk. It is my advice to test this "fix" and see if it works. |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 04:22 PM |
Well the game time is 2 RL minutes per 1 IG hour..
5 minutes is about 2.5 hours IG.. which is pretty realistic... I want to see someone in RL that run around wieldling and using a sword for 2.5 hours...
so two RL hours are really insane.. It is 3.5 IG days.. =P
I guess maybe making a bit of non-xp casting time might do it..
so you will get xp one time and then 1 minute or so will pass IG before you will get more xp..
(tho you will be able to cast other spells..)
another thing, maybe rolling a die each time someone cast a spell? so there will be X chance he get xp (that he learned from using that spell) and Y chance he wont? maybe even having some chance that he will ruin the 'newer' spells .. and can do alot of things.. AKA fumble ;)
if i add to this idea.. from what i see there is currently a decrease of 10% each time you cast specific spell.. and after 10 times you get low amount of xp (i duno what it is supsoed to be.. but i think my wizard was getting like 1- 3 XP for spells he used more than 10 times)
I think it can work the following way:
each spell got 10 times of casting untill you 'know' the spell.. so you got 10 "skill points" for that spell.. (new spells will start with 10 points)
each point means 1% of ruining the spell which can cause varaiety of things (from dmging the spell caster to 'inventing' a new spell [ learning a new spell] )
so each time you cast and succeed in casting it, there will be X chance the points will be reduced.. maybe even a chance that 2 points will be removed.. and at these times you will get the XP- you will control the spell better - you will have less chance to ruin the spell..
I think it might solve the problem, and will make the game more realistic..
I still need to polish this idea.. but i think i wrote here the basis of it..
Dens
*edit*
P.S.
about the crafting xp.. well.. first thing .. crafting is abillity and lvl based... so you might have higher needed abilities...
not to mantion it is dependet on a d20 roll..
so maybe you got higher rolls..
and another thing, I tried gem crafting as well.. the start was pretty fast, cuz you the first gems are easy.. but after passing a lvl .. and you start to get lower xp per gem.. and the more difficult gems are still hard...
you will move on slower..
*/edit* |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 04:32 PM |
| if 2rl minutes equal 1 in game hour, then 24 minutes equals half a day. I personally don't see how only being able to rest once every half hour real time is that bad of an idea, Unless you play a mage that likes to solo. But really, shouldn't it be risky and dangerous for anyone to solo. I don't see, how with the current rest system, how mages have any problem's what so ever, killing as often, or as fast as they want. I don't want to turn this into a "overpowered" discussion, but I just think that regaining your complete spellcasting ability every few minutes is very unrealistic, and makes the game far too easy for mages. It's almost akin to making cure critical wounds potions available for cheap for fighter classes, so they essentially could fight forever. |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 04:40 PM |
We're looking at lengthening the time between rests slightly as a result of he discussion :D
Cheers!
Ara
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Vives Screenshots!
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 04:50 PM |
well I think 24 minutes are too much..
If you are hurt or something.. and need to wait 24 minutes to rest.. it is really really pissing..
I mean.. you try to rest and there is a 10% you will be interupted.. so you need to wait 24 minutes?!
not to mention you go out to 'adventure' with a group or without.. and you triggerd a trap or something.. you are almost dead.. so you cant continue to 'adventure' and you cant run around searching potions or stuff like that.. so you go to town and wait untill you can rest..
or you just stay in you place and wait..
right now you got to wait 5 minutes.. which are fair.. but i think affing a bit.. so you will need to wait 6 - 7 minutes is also allright..
but 24 minutes? I tried to play a vamp.. i stopped playing pretty fast.. cuz playing 20 minutes.. (even less cuz the night is shorter than the day IG ) and then waiting somewhere for about 30 minutes... just not worth it... it is boring..
bottom line.. if you want to add some time between resting.. adding a bit like 1 - 2 minutes is enough (it is 20% or 40% after all... ) but more might be really annoying..
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 06:09 PM |
| I agree with Pokeundi's philosophy that solo'ing *should* be dangerous. While I'm not necessarily advocating a 24 minute rest interval, I think somewhere between 10-20 or so would be sufficient. When I'm out doing things, adventuring with a party, or RP'ing somewhere 10-20 minutes can go so quickly that I don't even notice! Indeed, there will be times that you're out exploring, step on a strong trap, and you're inches from death -- hence the danger in going it alone. Resting should be a period of relief from tension, you should sigh with relief when you can *finally* rest at an inn, campsite or safe point! I think increasing the rest interval will promote partying (as you'll need a variety of classes to remain safe), and reinforce the notion that the solitary adventurer needs to be very cautious out in those woods... |
- Raimonds Mountainhand, oldest dwarf you know
"Better ogres than trolls.." |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 06:58 PM |
Well that works fine for people that go with a party...
but for now.. most of my day time there arent many players IG.. which means most game play is solo..
when you cant RP.. you go around do quests explore craft... but you cant do these .. err.. 'right' without reasting.. and as it is 'not so fun' to play alone (IMO) it will really be boring to try to do something and wait 10 - 20 minutes without doing anything but waiting to the blessed resting times...
eventually there wont be much time.. if there will be at all.. in which players wont have other players to RP with...
but I think that right now.. and maybe when there will be other players.. there are ppl that solo around.. increasing the time between rests will really make their time boring..
cuz you always need to rest.. no matter what exactly you are trying to do.. cthe ways around are not safe..
and I know that it is really boring to wait 20 or so minutes before you can do something..
it will be forced RP to make ppl wait 20 minutes.. and that aint nice.. (the 5 minutes can pass really fast while walking from place a [safe] to b [safe] .. 20 minutes need much more walking around or just waiting)
another thing.. it happens many times that one accidently press the R button..
If he needs to wait 5 mintues.. probably this time will pass before he will actually try to rest.. and 20 minutes.. well.. that sux and I dont think ppl will want to wait so much time... nor changing the hotkeys they are used to...
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 07:11 PM |
so how's this for an off the wall suggestion....
based upon your percentage of HPs remaining, your time between rest changes... the fewer HPs you have, the faster you can rest?
An example:
you have a [normal] max of 100HP. you're required to wait 20RL minutes.
you're damaged and down to 50HP. your time between rests is reduced to 10RL minutes.
you're damaged and down to 10HP, your time between rests is reduced to 2 RL minutes.
Just throwing that out for discussion and/or perhaps modification.
-Q
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 07:24 PM |
All well and fine with figher style characters, but then again at 100 hp, or 75 hp, or 50, they do what they always do, and cano stick it out. No matter the hp, they still just hack things up. Spellchuckers on the other hand, even with 100% health, are dead meat without spells at all to do anything. It's a nice idea, I just think it won't solve the spell XP problem realistically.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 07:24 PM |
well that seems pretty fine from the waiting time.. cuz most max hp chars wont rest..
but it surely dmg wizards.. and altho you want to nerf them.. I think the concapt of a wizard stoping in the middle of a chase after something to prepare the right spells.. can be and it is nice..
but it still leaves the exploited rest/cast/rest/cast
from the other side.. the realistic side.. is not ..well.. -right-
resting might be sitting for an hour or two and talk a bit around the campfire..
from the other side resting is also sitting down to catch your breath for a second..
which i think doest really work good with campsites =/
maybe there is a way to have a 'full' rest that will need the bedroll and campfire.. which will be the long rest.. like when the chars rest for couple of hours..
and there will be a short rest.. which wont need a bedroll .. wont need a campsite..
and will be like a rest you stopped int he middle :
you wont get all the hp.. not all the skillsperday will be reset... not all the spells will be useable again..
so the short one is for sitting down catching your breath for a seconed.. or in other cases.. clearing your mind so you can leave your body once again (empty body) or when you make several changes the spells you prepared so instead of hiding wiht invisiblity you will haste everyone and they will run away... or maybe you just understood that the fireball wont help in the close crypt..
IMO that can really work fine, and add some more to the game paly, realistic and RP...
but well that's my point of view
Dens - thinks he need a sig =P |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: xp system
Posted: 23 Aug 2003 08:36 PM |
I've played a lot of mods with different resting systems from once every 30 RL minutes to whenever you like, and I think the optimum time between rests is 8 RL minutes. And I'm talking from a purely "player sitting playing NWN" sense, not a realism sense. I didn't play the 30 RL minutes one long because it HUGELY favoured classes with magic healing ability. I might find it's different in Vives, because of the different systems, but I think it'd still be greatly annoying.
On the other hand I found being able to rest too often detracted from the RP experience. Spellcasters are supposed to rest for 8 hrs to get any spells back. Sitting on the ground for half a minute whenever you feel like it is just "unrealistic." I played a lot of different classes in a mod that uses the 8 minute rest and I found it was balanced. Low levels for arcane magic users were tricky, but in Vives this will be negated by the exploration/storyline xp boost at the start of the game. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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