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Sequencer Robes
Posted: 02 Mar 2005 05:27 PM |
I thought since I wanted to add my comments about this but not to go off topic I'd bring it here. Hope this is ok.
Sol, I would have to respectfully disagree with you suggestion that sequencer robes make spellcasters superflous. It actually makes them very important. I had a great RP session with Arawen (I think) who asked me to enchant her robes with Shadow Shield. It also meant that I was able to use my "craft" and make some money out of it, since this was about the only craft (which is realistic for a sorcerer anyway) to have.
I do agree that some sort of control should be placed upon it, so it should not be any spell (like TS). But is there any chance it can be confined to say spells which are "Target - Self". Perhaps also even add a level restriction in line with the spell, to keep it in line with any other magical item.
That would stop 1st Level characters being all so powerful. That said is that really in the spirit of RP. If a 1st level character has enough gold/ or other means of barter, to persuade a spellcaster to cast the robes, why not let them be available.
Personally I think it can add something to the game for this to be allowable, but not freely available. Moderation I guess is the key.
That said, I disagree with Carlton on the whole "can we have a 20th level item please". Mages by far suffer from the availablilty of magical items IG. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 02 Mar 2005 05:36 PM |
Sequencer Robes are far far far too powerful to allow this.
I'm the one who put them back into the mod, and it didnt take long to see unbalancing they are - hence the restrictions, and then the additional restrictions on them.
Allowing fighters to have access to the same defensive magic as mages and clerics is just not going to happen.
It might be possible that the other DM's will smack me around for changing the robes, or restricting access to the robes, but I am more worried that they will ask for them to be removed completely.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 02 Mar 2005 05:48 PM |
| Well since the robes are the topic I vote for removal. |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 02 Mar 2005 06:07 PM |
"20th level characters are far too powerful."
Anybody else see the problem with this statement?
Epic level characters are supposed to be of epic power.
I figured that was why we instated level requirements in the first place. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 02 Mar 2005 08:19 PM |
Well, with the item level restriction a level one can't use sequencer robes.
Item level restrictions are good, means you have to earn the right to use this item of 'incredible power'.
Seeing as how only mages and sorcerers can use them I think that's all fair. I mean, you don't see many mages running around in full plate (mithril mind you because otherwise the spell failure rate would be killer, heh, or maybe some of that nifty elven spellbattle armor).
Rob is also right. *nods in agreement*
-Bereil |
CHOO CHOO!
- - - - - -
Bereil Yadashem.
Markus Mortriety, Herald of Novus Aristi. |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 12:12 AM |
"20th level characters are far too powerful."
Anybody else see the problem with this statement?
Epic level characters are supposed to be of epic power.
I figured that was why we instated level requirements in the first place.
We are not talking about the power level of 20th level characters, we are talking about the recent changes to sequencer robes and why they were made.
The recent changes prevent warriors from casting spells that would make them invunerable, prevents clerics from casting timestop, etc.
I dont see this as a problem |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 04:14 AM |
Heh all, slightly off topic, but from the perspective of a player whose characters have looted a lot in the past (i know, im bad!). There seems to still be a lot of very powerful items in the game, more powerful than some of the illegal items, such as the "Bloodletter" sword (i think Bloodletter is the most powerful item i have seen in the game, at one point i was considering running around with one in each hand as the only character i have of high enough level to use it!)
I dont know what sequencer robes do, but i think that in system it is a good idea to keep a strict divide between classes and if a mage powerful mage spell, then restricting them to mages would be a good idea (or removing them if too powerful).
I think that having too poweful items does suspend the disbelief of the game, which is a bad thing, we are all here for immersion! Anyway, just my view of things :o)
Chris |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 04:35 AM |
I for one 100% support pdw on the whole sequencer robes issue. I wanted them taken out of game, but he found a better solution. There is no circumstance in which a non spellcaster, non umd based character should be able to cast 3 spells of whatever level from an item once per day! Akril says so long as it is not time stop or equivalent then should be alright. And suggests Shadowshield as a reasonable alternative. So for just one of the three spells allowed, your solo fighter can now run off to one of the crypts without a fear, whereas before they wouldnt dare step foot in the place alone.
Cos shadowshield makes you immune to ALL death spells, and ALL negative energy attacks.
Yes that is unbalancing, and deserves to be illegal by the item level Vives is aiming for.
Similarly with True Seeing when wanting to take on the night masks. Or Greater Sanctuary when wanting to loot. Or Greater Spell Mantle, heal, premonition, mass haste, etc, etc. No item exists IG that allows a character to cast these spells once a day, so why would these robes be allowed to do so.
But allowing them to cast the spell for a character that can already cast it, that is a lot less unbalancing. Especially as they are now a suitably high level item.
As for the whole whose items are too powerful debate, it's no different to the whole discussion of mages are too powerful, shadowdancers are too powerful, clerics are too powerful, etc, etc *yawn*
Simple fact is there is no perfect balance. Never can be. But Vives is pretty good. And above all, Vives is about the rp. So it doesnt really matter if you would have the edge in PvP, or you can cast "Bigbys incredible groping hand"! *grins* It's not what the server is about.
There are too many illegal items sneaking in on the treasure tables. Im no techy, but whenever pdw discusses this, he normally starts swearing! Cos apparently it's really, really difficult to fix. So we try and sort it out as best we can, until he can find the time and energy to devise a solution.
And as for legal items being more powerful than the illegal ones. Not sure I agree. Bloodletter looks good, I had the first character to get hold of that to my knowledge. And when I found it was delighted, but mainly cos it was unique. I even burnt several feats to use it. But hardly ever do so. Wounding, fairly useless in most situations. +4, yea that's nice. But needs to be +5 to cut through stoneskin and the like so not all that amazing really. And it's an exotic weapon, so requires a feat to use. It is one of the most powerful legal swords IG, but +3 with extra elemental dmg is often more useful. So yea, it has been deemed legal.
The illegal items are things that are unbalancing, give access to a feat or permanent ability that is too powerful. Not everyone with an item that gives improved evasion would be unbalancing. But some would. And so it is banned. Perm haste is definitely unbalancing, and unrealistic for a world like Vives. Same with perm True Seeing. And so that is how the list was devised. And it works pretty well.
Anyone wanting to remind themselves of the legal guidelines, check here:
/vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=25768
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 05:02 AM |
Well (and be real careful to take note here), I have actually been persuaded by PDW and Sirac.
...yes you can all stop gasping now.
I wont go into why as I think they have put it perfectly amicably, but in essense I think it would most likely be unbalancing.
Couple of caveats though (just because its against my principles to be completely persuaded *grins*)....
Shadow Shield is a great spell. Its certainly not an amazing spell that allows you to walk into Crypt unharmed. As proved by the DM the other day!!!!
Secondly, (except for cross class use which PDW has rightly illustrated is a bad idea) sequencer robes are not actually that powerful for mages. They are good, there is absolutely no doubt about that, which is why I make sure I wear them.
But all they do is once per day allow you cast three spells simultaneously. Typically, if used effectively they are the spells that will allow you to retreat and perhaps just about survive. That of course relies upon them working which they frequently dont, and hence the danger at the moment can make them a little useless.
The other benefits are usually superflous, since you're likely to have them anyway.
And finally, I agree with Sirac the whole "this class is better than that" is boring. Roughly they all have their uses. Yes Bard probably arent that good in PvP against a mage, but then Shakespeare never planned to take on Vlad the Impaler. Both have still been remembered in history, just for different things. You can have as much RP fun with both.
And as for "Bigbys Incredible Groping Hand" that sounds like an awesome spell *grins* |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 05:41 AM |
Well (and be real careful to take note here), I have actually been persuaded by PDW and Sirac.
...yes you can all stop gasping now.
*Gasps...gasps some more.... faints.* 'Dear god; this man is over gasped!!' |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 07:33 AM |
Shadow Shield is a great spell. Its certainly not an amazing spell that allows you to walk into Crypt unharmed. As proved by the DM the other day!!!!
So therefore it is an amazing spell that allows you to walk into crypts unharmed, when there are no DMs on! And still gives and advantage when one is on.
Secondly, (except for cross class use which PDW has rightly illustrated is a bad idea) sequencer robes are not actually that powerful for mages. They are good, there is absolutely no doubt about that, which is why I make sure I wear them.
But all they do is once per day allow you cast three spells simultaneously. Typically, if used effectively they are the spells that will allow you to retreat and perhaps just about survive. That of course relies upon them working which they frequently dont, and hence the danger at the moment can make them a little useless.
This is sadly true. A party of 4 died to the forgorn witch because Sol's robes didn't work properly and the group had relied on this tactically. Respawing at 23rd-ish level hurts!
The other benefits are usually superflous, since you're likely to have them anyway.
These were added to increase the cost so that they were a little more balanced from a cost to IG value perspective.
Lastly, although you have already capitulated Akril, I would just like to add that yes maybe you had one great RP session imbuing someones robes with spells. But once you have done that the one time, that player can (if they wish and I am not saying that this is definitely the case with this player!) then go off and solo much more easily than before, leading to less overall RP. Therefore the overall RP balance is screwed up for the server. I would far rather the server has lots of great RP sessions with fighters RPing with their cleric and mage friends to all go and fight evil (or good!) together, RPing as they do so. This is much better than loads of people running around solo and switching robes to power up and solo places.
So there!
- Sol
p.s. I think the robes should stay in as they are now IG . |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 08:49 AM |
Lastly, although you have already capitulated Akril, I would just like to add that yes maybe you had one great RP session imbuing someones robes with spells. But once you have done that the one time, that player can (if they wish and I am not saying that this is definitely the case with this player!) then go off and solo much more easily than before, leading to less overall RP. Therefore the overall RP balance is screwed up for the server. I would far rather the server has lots of great RP sessions with fighters RPing with their cleric and mage friends to all go and fight evil (or good!) together, RPing as they do so. This is much better than loads of people running around solo and switching robes to power up and solo places.
So there!
- Sol
p.s. I think the robes should stay in as they are now IG.
It was this point that really changed my mind. Despite the RP I got out of it, I realised it was a one off. The gold was nice though. *grins* |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 09:22 AM |
Allowing fighters to have access to the same defensive magic as mages and clerics is just not going to happen.
It might be possible that the other DM's will smack me around for changing the robes, or restricting access to the robes, but I am more worried that they will ask for them to be removed completely.
- Paul
I'm assuming that high level rogues with a high enough level in use magical device, will still be able to use them though - right? I mean, that's one of the really nifty things about being a rogue - pumping skill points into use magical device and getting to use wands/class specific weapons or armour/scrolls etc.
However, if this is the case (that rogues can still use them, with the right requirements), then what do they count as for the purpose of spells put into them? Or can they mix and match still, being that they have the ability to use anyone's stuff?
Only just a thought I had. I mean I'm still trying to pump in enough points as my rogue to use my wand of melf's acid arrow more often than I fail. |
Jack Sprat - Dashing half-elven 'pirate' rogue
Rasputin Kalarmander - Old human cleric of Elbereth
Coral Shadeleaper - Timid elven wizard
Fenris Wolf - Barbarian elf ranger
Leaf Barksson - Elven druid
Xyfar-noo - Dwarven traveling cleric |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 09:51 AM |
As Vives has custom rules for UMD, I can't be certain on this. The problem would likely come from the fact that you have to be able to "inherently" cast any spell contained in the robes. And as a rogue cant cast anything... *shrugs*
UMD is an amazing skill. I probably have the highest UMD of any character in Vives as Sirac. And it is soooooo worth it.
But there should be some items it doesnt work with. You are not allowed to use UMD to utilise a holy avenger. Or robes of the archmage. My gut feeling would be these robes will probably fall into the same category, as totally class specific. If not for the balance issues, then simply because the compromise that allows them to remain IG at all makes them unusable for rogues. Shame, but not a huge deal, umd still so worth it, once you get it high enough.
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 08:22 PM |
As a character, I'm pretty sure that the DM's are already vying to lessen the power of a certain swordsman, simply because they don't like some of the numbers I bring into combat (Mainly the three digit ones), but I must admit, if there is any abuse being taken from the Sequencer robes, it's very likely coming from me. The Sequencing robes have become Daimon's Main armor for the last 3 months, despite being AC 0 (And him having the ability to wear full plate) I prefer the agile enchanter's gear I've turned them into. For the last 5 levels or so... (Or the last half year) I've been playing Daimon as a pseudo Mage to explain for his enchanting crafting ability. He frequently admits to professing in magical practices of a non-standard origin. Anyone who has fought alongside him can tell that he utlilizes several uncommon items in game simply because of the enchanter's twist he gets from the ability to cast spells. Daimon possesses a large array of magic at his disposal. A collection of at least 15 different robes for different purposes, a massive scroll collection with enough high level scrolls to help with just about any situation, and a large array of items with castable spells and charges. Granted, this ability was crippled when he was no longer able to use things like Rods of the ghost, and cleric scrolls, due to his lack of a UMD skill, but that was long before he attained the image he has now.
So... I would like to know how the DM's feel about Daimon using robes of sequencing. I've used them extensively for the last 2 months to save my hide on more than a few occasions. I admit they make me quite a powerful warrior, and I even spent massive amounts of money to buy a second(Which I ditched when Paul announced the changes) when I decided I liked them so much. With a few choice spells (I'm very particular about my spells) Daimon makes quite a powerful warrior. On that note, Though he has the combat prowess, and the saves, to take on a good amount of what Vives has to offer, his low AC (around 21, yeah, I know) low hitpoints, and lack of powerful blades (I still use a rapier+3 if I don't have a mage in company) allows me to consistantly die quite often, if I'm not careful. The Sequencing robes have given him some level of secuirty, against the flukes that are bound to happen eventually and take away more exp then I've gained between them. Allowing to at least make his development a really slow positive one, instead of a regression. As far as exploiting them to gain massive amounts of experience points... I think since New years to Last week, I've gained about maybe 4k experience, and watched several other warriors a few levels under me zoom to a few levels higher than me. I assure you, the robes aren't helping to GIVE me any exp... let alone enough for my character to threaten the server.
I would like a decision to be made about my character using them though. I don't want to continue to feel like a criminal on the server by using cross-class equipment.
-Veran |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 02:12 AM |
Hi Veran,
Regarding the sequencer robes; that decision has already been made. I haven't taken the robes off you yet as I have not caught Daimon IG. The robes are definately out for non spellcasters. (I even had to get rid of Luthers )
I'm pretty sure that the DM's are already vying to lessen the power of a certain swordsman
I object to that assumption. Under no circumstance that I am aware of have any DM's "resented" Daimon for the damage he can do in combat. We all know it is easy to build more powerful builds. We also know that Daimon is mostly an RP character built with a certain focus.
If you have specific concerns regarding certain DM actions with your character that make you feel this way, then send me a pm telling me about it and I will find out what is going on.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 02:33 AM |
| After playing around with a set abit.. I was wondering, they dont seem to keep metamagic, is this purposefully, a bug, or simply not possible? |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 02:36 AM |
I doubt it's possible. Wands, Scrolls, Sequencers, etc. don't tend to keep Metamagic (which is unfortunate, I'd love to extend all the spells).
The only problem I've really had with sequencing a low-duration spell is Haste. The solution I found was sequencing mass haste, since it stores as a 15th caster level spell instead of a 5th caster level spell, so it lasts an extra minute. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 03:40 AM |
No metamagic is not kept (EDIT sorry I said it was kept, bad typo). I looked at the script and that's how I fiddled around with the setting which keeps the level of the caster but makes casters only use things they can cast themselves.
There is no setting in the script which keeps the metamagic. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 04:39 AM |
Just a very quick note, there is a very simple and very IG way around this.
If you want a fighter to be able to enchant and use Sequencer robes, multi-class them. If you think the benefits are that good then surely you'd do what you can to train to obtain them.
Quick questoins; the spells in the robes, do you need to be able to know the spell or do you need to be able to just be capable of casting it.
For example, Im a sorcerer with say Shadow Shield but want to change it for another spell. Could I cast it into the robes, and when I level and change may spells still be able to use the robes? |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 05:37 AM |
| I think so Akril. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to. You can only use sorc/wiz spells, but since you can also cast from a scroll it's no problem. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 06:28 AM |
| Cool. Thanks for that. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 05:54 PM |
Hey, Paul, a few things.
First, I've never felt particularly offended from any DM, so don't worry about that. I do feel that Daimon has been welcomed rather warmly here, and everyone has made his stay enjoyable, and appreciates his presence.
and second, why did you have to get rid of your robes if you're a level..... ~13 Cleric? I had thought that the modification was made to allow only spellcaster classes (Bard Cleric Druid Sorceror Wizard) to be able to use them.
And Third, I hate to whine about money, but I've been pretty poor of late. Should I just trash barrel them, or could I be reimbursed for them, as I've spent about 150k on them, not counting my second suit that is long gone... (Expensive suit to modify *Cringe* but oh so worth it) Actually... I've got a better idea... For an interested party.
Alright.. have a nice day, and thanks for the reply. |
The Legacy Saga |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 05 Mar 2005 02:22 AM |
Bards aren't pure spellcasters. Bards have melee potential so they really fall in the category of Mixed characters like Paladins and Rangers.
Pure spellcasters, Druids, Clerics, Sorcerers, and Wizards I think personally should be able to wear the Sequencer Robes. That was originally the plan.
But I guess when it was thought about, giving a character access to the best of Arcane, Divine, and Natural spells with one item was a little overbudget, so Sequencer Robes were limited to Sorcerers and Wizards only.
Not to throw the motion off-course, but maybe it could be made fair for Druids and Clerics? Maybe a Sequencer could be put out that only they could wear?
Just an idea. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Sequencer Robes
Posted: 05 Mar 2005 11:39 PM |
After playing around with a set abit.. I was wondering, they dont seem to keep metamagic, is this purposefully, a bug, or simply not possible?
1/ it is the way the robes work
2/ it is possible to store metamagic, but I wont change it. the robes are powerful enough.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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