| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Display using:
|
|
Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 08:54 AM |
Today was the third time I have visited a certain well known low level quest area with a character, only to find the entire area cleaned out and looted, and the quest objective item lying on the floor.
There are certain areas where this is entirely understandable, as they are common traffic routes, and sometimes you get attacked and there is nothing you can do, and most of the time you end of having to deal with the spawn as you move through the area at any rate, and in a situation where I am attacked and have not gone out of my way to be attacked, I feel justified in helping myself to any loot that may be lying about. This particular area is completely out of the way, and there is absolutely no reason to go there, unless it is to complete the quest.
Now occassionally I can understand how a new player might complete the quest, not realize that they have, and accidentally leave the quest item behind. That happened to me the first time I tried to complete the quest. But this is the third time I have visited the area in a period of two or three weeks, and found the area cleaned and looted and the quest item lying on the floor. I think it is a pretty safe bet that somebody is visiting the area whenever possible, after server resets, and cleaning and looting the area (in case anyone is wondering why I have been there as many times as I have, I happen to like creating characters, and right now I have five on the go).
This kind of behaviour is just plain rude. This is the only quest that I know of that a first or second level character can safely complete on their own, and is a great place for a starting character to find a few items to sell, or maybe, if they are lucky, their first magical item. To have the area cleaned out again and again by someone who is obviously meta gaming, is truly annoying. Above and beyond that, I thought this kind of behaviour was against "the rules" and was a bannable offence on Vives.
Now before anyone who might be watching me secretly points the finger at me, I hope I'm right, but I understood that it is all right to continue going back to an area if you haven't been able to "complete" the area, ie. finish any quest that might be involved etc. There have been a few areas that I have visited that I have visited many times simply because I have been unable to, or felt that I have been unable to, explore the entire area. Maybe I am not correct here in my views, but I feel that if I have had to fight to get as far as I do, I deserve to be able to claim what loot I find, even though I have done so before. But once I have completely cleared an area I don't go back there unless I have some compelling in-game, or rp reason to do so.
Once again, this is obviously not what is happening in the area I am currently complaining about. |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
|
  |
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 11:55 AM |
Can you send a message to all DM's telling us which area(s) you are experiencing this problem in?
Thanks.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 12:00 PM |
I dont know what aera your talking about but you might find that it is caused by the fact there are alot of new rouges on this server as of late. With that in mind as low levels Characters they cant steal from the places that are well guarded, by traps and locks and this might be the cause.
I know that i try to leave any 'low' magic items still there because with Jand i have moved into the 'mid' magic level and as Cantor can contest he is well in the high and powerfull magical items market.
There are a few places that rouges can steal from and i try not to go back to ones i have 'out leveled' moving on to the harder ones keeps it intresting and encorages trying to get better items.
Also you have to think of all the people that have started, i have been guilty of leaving a quest item for the fact i didnt know it was one. I do hope you have more luck.. |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 12:57 PM |
Not only is this rude its metagaming. Your character wouldnt likely return to the same place over and over again. I hope that if this is the case the DMs will spot who does it and set up an ambush for them, much like would be the case IG.
Then when they lose their XP and gold it wont be profitable anymore |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 04:06 PM |
| Well now that I've calmed down a bit... It may well simply be that new players are completing the quest, but not realizing there is an item there to be had. As I said, I had the same thing happen to me, and it would appear that others have as well. If that is the case then I should apologize. It just seemed odd to me that this happened three times in the space of two or three weeks, and twice in a row as well. |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 04:50 PM |
| *points to Carlton*. I'd watch him if I were you. Shifty shifty man |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 07:06 PM |
| One way you could fix this (and it's not an ideal system) is to have certain quest areas only accessible to those doing the quest. Take the Stinger Chieftain quest for example. If you somehow locked off the caves at the top of the cliffs so that a one-use key or key item was required to access the area, Ender could give players the key item only if they havn't already completed the quest. If you need to get into the quest areas for some other RP reason, a DM can always let you in. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 24 Oct 2004 08:51 PM |
In my opinion there are many RP reasons to revisit an area over and over. There are many characters that love treasure and magical items. If such a character knows that the potential exsists that a certain group of monsters tend to hold such items it only stands to reason that they would go there to see what they could find. How did the character find out this information? By experencing this area in game, in other words character knowledge. That is not metagaming. There is an RP reason to go there and they did not use player knowledge to figure it out. There are other places I tend to revisit a lot just because I love playing in Vives and there are some encounters that are very entertaining to revisit. My character goes there to blow off steam or becuase they just like certain challanges. Both RP reasons to revisit areas. I also like to take young characters to new places, to help them with quests or just to travel with them. It is important to me not to get them killed. It really helps to know an area well to pull this off sucessfully. I can assure you that many areas in Vives play different everytime you enter them. I like to have my bases covered in these type of outings. So it is important to me to have a good idea of what all the possibilities are. Not to mention the ever frinedly Vives staff tends to change things around from time to time. So as to keep things fresh and keep us players on our toes. So this type of exploring and revisiting areas can be very dangerous. One of my characters fell the other night in a out of the way favorite place due to some recent additions. The respawn cost her 7200 exp and 15000 gold ... so this kind of playing is not the casual walk in the park that it may seem from the outside. But that is one of the things that makes it fun to play here. Not to mention that the DM's do come after you with all kinds of funs things in the various dungeons. I love to sit for hours and talk about all kinds of stuff, but I love to adventure too. I revisit many areas over and over again. Because it is fun to do so. I do not think it is bad RP or Metagaming. :)
-Ken |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 06:22 AM |
I would say that I dont think it would be right to shut areas off once you have visited them, both because this would be limiting in a way that I dont feel would improve Vives and also because as Tsu7 points out there are sometimes good RP reasons for re-visiting areas.
That said there are a few things to note:
1) this post is confined to quest areas not areas with treasure generally. That being the case, the "event" that caused this circumstance to each player is supposed to be a one off. You have to assume (in a mental acrobatic kind of way) that the the old fella doesnt keep going to the woods on a picnic and leaving his medicine there and that the person who took it doesnt keep respawning.
Personally to keep returning to quest areas without a good reason is both rude (because its unfair to new players) and bad RPing.
2) I think this applies to certain general areas anyway and is in anycase against the rules as its farming if done too often. I also stand by what I say and that this if done excessively is metagaming because the players are relying too much on the fact that the NWN engine can only respawn the same amount of people. If you repeatedly raided a certain area over and over again, you could guarentee that either the creatures would move or they would reinforce and you would stand to die. Since the NWN engine cannot accomodate this, its metagaming to carry on as if this wouldnt be the case.
There are plenty of areas to try and circulate and perhaps return to the same areas occasionally unless they are major routes. I dont really see any need to do this that often. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 09:49 AM |
This is the way I look at it, based on my short time here and what I have read in the forums.
1. I will feel free to revisit an area with a specific character until I have completely explored an area and defeated everything there and looted the entire area, either by myself or with a group. I realize there is no inalienable right to scour every area in Vives, but I don't think that is unreasonable and it strikes a balance between metagaming and rp. I should note that I have alot of different characters and sometimes I get mixed up as to who has been where and seen what, so if I do visit an area more than once this way I plead mental confusion...
2. Any "common" area, or area with no loot or special purpose, I will feel free to visit as many times as I travel through, or at least several time if it isn't in a route I normally travel. By "common" areas I mean areas that are regular travel routes, or perhaps areas with specific crafting resources. If I am attacked in such an area, and there is loot there, I will feel free to take it. Areas with no special loot or apparrent purpose are transition areas or areas with only creatures. I will visit these areas more than once.
My crankiness in this thread had to do with an area that was a very specific quest area, as I said, there was no reason to go to this area whatsoever except for the purposes of this quest, and it appeared to me as though someone who had already completed the quest was going back again and again. But after thinking about it some more I have come to realize that when you are first starting out in Vives it is very easy to clean out the entire area and miss the quest item and this is probably what has been happening.
Anyway, I would like to know if the way I am looking at the issue of revisiting areas is acceptable here in Vives, as now that I have been on the server for a few weeks I am getting to the place where this is more of an issue with me now. |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 09:51 AM |
| Your approach certainly sounds reasonable to me. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 02:23 PM |
Well i agree with Tsu, if the place is cleared out, so come back tomorrow, you will get the chance to complete the quest one day.
And as has been discussed elsewhere, it can be hard starting out with some classes. So when there was no one else around to help and my low level monk had the choice of getting killed again at carfax or anywhere else for that matter ...yes i did repeatedly do the quest im sure youre on about...
And if getting a bit more exp in about the only way that was possible at the time is Meta then im guilty of it...
Id like to add that this was months ago so i am not the current culprit...
Also when i am online now and any of my Chrs. friends are around i spend 90 % of the time talking rubbish with them for no exp...
And when they arnt around....SHOCK HORROR ... i usually visit somewhere ive been many times before.... |
If you catch a butterfly.
You can either keep it and watch it die.
Or let it go and watch it fly away.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 25 Oct 2004 04:22 PM |
As I see it, this will always continue to happen. If no one is around, no RP is going on, etc, etc... What left more can you do?
The only solution I see to this problem, would be to have a script which allows chests/loot respawn after a certain amount of game time once they've been opened and/or cleared. *Shrugs* |
Valarien Wrynn
"All I ever wanted from life was a good drink and a pretty lass on me lap..." |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 26 Oct 2004 01:50 AM |
As soon as I get the chance (busy with hak stuff at present) I'll take a look (or someone will :P) and see if we can manage to get the Quest in question sorted :)
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 26 Oct 2004 03:55 AM |
I think there are some solutions and I think with some stuff (correct me if Im wrong) but once you've received the loot it wont appear in the chest the next time that character goes back.
I also agree when its dead there is not a lot you can do, but then if its dead theres little chance it will offend anyone.
I also think newplayers scouting familiar territory is a diffent matter and theres not alot we can expect besides this.
However, personally I think that completing Quests at higher levels you've already done is unneccessary and unfair to others. There are plenty of areas you can go to without completeing quests.
Personally I think if a PC is repetitively going to the same place to get the same item they should expect something nasty the next time they return. But maybe thats just cuz Im grouchy from having been in jail for lord knows how long when it was thought I was doing just that, when in fact I wasnt. What I was doing was killing nobles for fun! |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 26 Oct 2004 08:44 AM |
...and profit...
...imagine being put in jail for killing nobles? How patently unfair is that? I mean, good grief, you'd think they were the ruling class or something, the way people got all upset... |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 27 Oct 2004 08:19 AM |
This is the way I look at it, based on my short time here and what I have read in the forums.
1. I will feel free to revisit an area with a specific character until I have completely explored an area and defeated everything there and looted the entire area, either by myself or with a group. I realize there is no inalienable right to scour every area in Vives, but I don't think that is unreasonable and it strikes a balance between metagaming and rp. I should note that I have alot of different characters and sometimes I get mixed up as to who has been where and seen what, so if I do visit an area more than once this way I plead mental confusion...
2. Any "common" area, or area with no loot or special purpose, I will feel free to visit as many times as I travel through, or at least several time if it isn't in a route I normally travel. By "common" areas I mean areas that are regular travel routes, or perhaps areas with specific crafting resources. If I am attacked in such an area, and there is loot there, I will feel free to take it. Areas with no special loot or apparrent purpose are transition areas or areas with only creatures. I will visit these areas more than once.
My crankiness in this thread had to do with an area that was a very specific quest area, as I said, there was no reason to go to this area whatsoever except for the purposes of this quest, and it appeared to me as though someone who had already completed the quest was going back again and again. But after thinking about it some more I have come to realize that when you are first starting out in Vives it is very easy to clean out the entire area and miss the quest item and this is probably what has been happening.
Anyway, I would like to know if the way I am looking at the issue of revisiting areas is acceptable here in Vives, as now that I have been on the server for a few weeks I am getting to the place where this is more of an issue with me now.
This is a tricky subject (as most are) with no right answer. Your approach is a very good one Llewen.
Revisiting an area over and over again to get loot is "affectionately" known as Farming. We don't really like farming on Vives, but we understand that it goes on to a certain extent. Logging on straight after a reset to go on a loot run, i.e. visiting known good loot spawn places is also frowned upon.
If a DM sees you farming/looting an area repeatedly, some will deal with this IC and set a monster or a trap on you to keep you on your toes. Others will sned you a tell advising that you've been looting there too often and to please stop. It really is a matter of opinion.
We do try to combat farming to make it less tempting. One way to prevent farming is to make special loot as once only per character, some of our quests this is the case. There has also been instances in the past, areas that were repeatedly farmed were changed so the loot spawn was a lot lower, or completely switched off. Ara also did some work to ensure that the better loot was found more where you would expect it to be, i.e. at the bottom of a hard to fight through dungeon.
But we don't like to enforce styles of play here. So while we expect everyone to RP first and foremost we don't expect people to do it to exclusion. i.e. people who like fighting can also enjoy themselves here, as can people who like to buy and sell magical items. And these latter are likely to be ones who are trying to find the best loot IG.
Another point to mention is that after you have been here a few months, you probably will have been everywhere at least once, so to prevent boredom we would expect that you would re-visit places. OOC you know that you've killed all of the snow orcs and that they're going to respawn, IC you can treat this as more coming down form the mountains to defend what they see as their land. You may have IC killed the Troll Chieftain and taken the reward, that doesn't stop you helping a newer character to do the same for the newly elected Troll Chieftain. So there are ways to explain respawn of both monsters and loot.
To re-iterate, there is no right and wrong way to play Vives, as long as RP is the most important thing to you, but extensive farming is frowned upon.
- Sol |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 08 Nov 2004 10:55 AM |
I'm back on this topic, once again because I have a lower lever/weaker character that, once again, is visiting the few low level/weaker areas only to find them consistently purged and looted dry. Now I suppose that part of my disappointment is just jealousy at not getting there first, however, there is something about this that is bothering me.
I am fairly certain that a few people playing rogues are basically taking the fact that their character is a rogue as a license to loot farm. They even have a nice RP name for it, "guyvering". Now I am a bit of a purist, and I get irritated when I see a bad 80's T.V. show finding its way into my little fantasy world, but really that is perfectly in keeping with the spirit of Vives, so I don't have anything to complain about there. I guess what is bothering me is that certain players are engaged in activities, that, I think, run counter to the spirit of Vives, then using a cute little name to make a joke out of it.
I guess what I find most bothersome is the fact that the spirit of power-gaming is alive and well here in Vives. People are using the fact that they are playing a warrior class, as an excuse to charge around, killing everything in sight, without any regard to RP, or common courtesy or consideration even for the people they are partied with. This is in the same vein as people using the fact that they are a rogue as an excuse to loot farm. All this is is power-gaming, thinly veiled with a weak RP excuse.
Now I understand that people are going to visit areas more than once, I do it myself. Partly because you run out of areas that you can adventure in without the certaintly of horrific death, partly because it is fun to level, to build characters, and to get the best equipment you can find for them. As someone else noted, in-game "meta" rewards like experience, loot and gold, are fun to get, and are a big part of the reason why many of us, if not all of us, play this game.
But I guess if I have a few requests, here are what they are. If an area has become so easy for you, that you can rampage through the whole area, killing everything in sight, with absolutely no risk to your character, it is time for you to move on and leave that area for lower level characters who can't adventure in the more difficult areas that you can now go to for a bit of fun and profit.
If you are a warrior class, put a little more thought into your RP, especially if you are in a party, and have a little consideration for the other players you are in the game with. Unless your character is a complete idiot (a type of character which most power-gamers will not play by the way - it gets in the way of their skill points, feat selection, and saving throws...), your character is not likely to go charging blindly and headlong into battle without at least a token consultation with the other characters around them.
If you already know exactly what is around the corner, and know that it presents absolutely no threat to you, then there are two possibilities. Either you are: A. in an area which you really should no longer be visiting, see my comments above, or B. you are in a party with weaker characters. If you are in a party with weaker characters, then this probably means you are doing a good thing in including new characters in your circle of friends and going to areas which present no real threat to you but are still a challenge for them.
Have the common courtesy to take your good deed one step further and allow them to enjoy what may be a new experience for them. Role Play with them, consult with them, let them have some of the joy of discovery. If the area is dangerous to them, role play it as if it is dangerous to you as well. Let them feel that tingle down their spine. Allow them to search through those crates for treasures which actually might be worth something to them instead of racing through all the crates and barrels like you have been there a thousand times before, which you probably have... |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 08 Nov 2004 11:06 AM |
| I couldn't agree more. Excellent post. Well spoken. |
-Kalos
"When in doubt, tell the truth. It will amaze most people, delight your friends, and confuse your enemies" -Mark Twain
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 08 Nov 2004 11:31 AM |
To re-iterate, there is no right and wrong way to play Vives, as long as RP is the most important thing to you, but extensive farming is frowned upon.
- Sol
I think Sol's quote above states the case very well. And applies to all levels and all areas...be it an epic level rogue going repeatedly to the same one or two areas every reset, or a mid level fighter farming creatures without any risk or respect for the world, or basically anyone repeatedly looting the same areas.
However, likewise it is important to be very careful of identifying players as doing something wrong. I too have heard the term guyvering a lot of late, and it's not a term Im crazy about. But one of the people I have heard it from, and who quite possibly introduced it is an exceptional roleplayer who is new here, and a welcome addition to Vives. So let's be careful not to get into thinking it's alright to attack different people's playing styles.
The simple truth is there is a finite amount of places to loot, and things to kill. And however big Vives may be, not everyone knows all the options of where to go, and some people prefer the safety of what they know rather than the often significant danger of what is unknown.
Vives has an emphasis on rp. I have seen people forgetting that some times of late...some people who are capable of very good rp sometimes get a little too quick to run around madly and not really look to rp. So a gentle reminder of what we all are here for, and to be considerate of others, I think is a very good point.
But I have played several low level characters up the levels in recent months. With time and patience anything you want to achieve IG can be done...be it gaining levels, finding good items, or getting immersed in storylines and top quality rp. So be patient, and if someone's playing in a style that really irritates, then walk away and find some of the numerous players that do not play in that style. If that happens enough times to a player hopefully they will notice and consider what they are doing "wrong".
And also be aware, the mad charge into danger is a really, really bad idea. Just ask some of the more experienced players how that can go wrong with just a little tweaking from a DM. Not that we are trying to kill you...but take Vives too much for granted and its liable to bite back. Gladden hills anyone... *grins*
Cheers,
Sirac |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 08 Nov 2004 11:43 AM |
However, likewise it is important to be very careful of identifying players as doing something wrong. I too have heard the term guyvering a lot of late, and it's not a term Im crazy about. But one of the people I have heard it from, and who quite possibly introduced it is an exceptional roleplayer who is new here, and a welcome addition to Vives. So let's be careful not to get into thinking it's alright to attack different people's playing styles.
I'll come right out and say the name. Johe Jaxon is, in my opinion, a wonderful guyver. His enthusasim and desire to practice his skills are very endearing. He is a great sidekick, in my opinion, which is a rare thing in any roleplaying world Any player that allows their character step back from the stoplight and be a player in any number of plots or storylines as not a main character (does that make senes) will be commended twenty times over by me.
Yeah, guyvering (by Johe, or any character) could be considered farming. I have never actually seen Johe guyver (that adds to his "is he good or evil aura, imo") but I trust that a truely good roleplayer will not use a roleplaying hook as an excuse to farm.
For what it's worth, that's my thoughts on guyvering. I will say,though, that roleplaying devices should not be used as an excuse to skirt the rules. But keeping that from happening starts with the players, not with DM enforcement.
-Byron, not making any sense anymore |
My name is Byron Lorian....I am the Last Son |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 08 Nov 2004 12:15 PM |
However, likewise it is important to be very careful of identifying players as doing something wrong. I too have heard the term guyvering a lot of late, and it's not a term Im crazy about. But one of the people I have heard it from, and who quite possibly introduced it is an exceptional roleplayer who is new here, and a welcome addition to Vives. So let's be careful not to get into thinking it's alright to attack different people's playing styles.
I don't like the term "guyvering" as I said, however, I don't really have a problem with it, there are a few other real world references in Vives (Johannes Music Shop anyone? etc.) so this term, while I find it annoying, doesn't really run contrary to the Vives milieu. I also recognize that some excellent role-players use the term, and it is really just a bit of a small joke, and probably not worth any sort of kerfuffle.
I also recognize that there is a fine line between warranted righteous indignation, in this case, and play-style bigotry. I have gotten something that has been bothering me for a while off my chest, and am content knowing that what I had to say has been heard. I hope I have the grace and maturity to leave it at that, relax and have some fun.  . |
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;"
T.S. Eliot |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 08 Nov 2004 01:11 PM |
From my application to vives...
Favorite class to play and why:
Rogue, and I think it's because so many people misunderstand the class and I like to play it the way I feel it should be played to educate those who do. A rogue is NOT a thief, he is ,rather, a jack of all trades, he's the scout, the Guyver, and the grifter, if you need something, ask the rogue, and he'll get it for you, granted sometimes you shouldn't ask where he got it, but he got it didn't he? I mean sheesh! Rogues have more honor than people give them credit for and I attempt to prove it everytime I play one.
I can't speak for other rogues, but first off let me apologize for bringing a term you dislike into the game, I for one thought it was kind of clever, all be it for very obtuse reasons. If you look at the word guyver (wich can be found in some dictionary's btw), anyway if you look at the word phonetically , a guyver may be a getter, but he's also a giver.
Johe is a curious child in a mature halfling body who just wants to help the community, and I feel I have played that to the best of my ability. Has he gone to the same place more than once? yes. but one way to tell the difference between a Johe Jaxon "hit" and a "thiefs hit" is that there's still loot there when Johe leaves. Johe works strictly by what's on his list. A lot of times when a place is visited doors are opened just to see what's there, cus he just has to know!Also my over 40 deaths in the short period of time I have been on Vives attest to the fact that I am constantly, and possibly prematurely, pushing the envelope to get through more challenging things.
Also, (and this is a big part of the character), a lot of what Johe has "guyvered" has been given to good folks who need it, and can't always go where a guyver goes.
Nothing Johe has gotten has been easy to get, and when it has become easy, he hs bored of it very quickly you can be sure of that.
One other thing as a side note, a roleplayed halfling can be annoying to some, I have been very careful to keep an eye out for that annoyance and move on if I sense the party may have had enough. I think I've found a core group of friends who can put up with meand I appreciate them very much. |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 08 Nov 2004 01:30 PM |
| I do have to say, Johe is a great character I enjoy rping with when we come across each other. His reaction to Chandler and Shalee's announcement of their marriage was so great! I'm looking forward to hearing him tell his joke at Shalee's and Chandler's wedding reception. Oh and Shalee was really touched that he gave her that sword. Maybe she should ask him to guyver something special for her to give to Chandler as a wedding present. ;) |
Shalee Windwalker.....wife of Chandler, Ranger, Cleric of Elbereth
Alianda - Change can happen.
Lara - half-elven Ranger, trying to reshape her life
Tia - Cleric of Vilyave
"Delicious Ambiguity" |
|
|
|
|
Re: Revisiting Quests for Loot... over and over again...
Posted: 08 Nov 2004 01:59 PM |
This subject is a -very- tricky one. There is a very thin line between farming/looting in the strong powergame way then in any other acceptable way you want to call it.
First someone has to see the difference between farming monsters, and going on an adventure to some place. There are a lot of areas in Vives, but only so much you can go to without running out of areas that you wont face the certainty of death in. Sometimes there's nothing you can really do but go into these places and fight monsters and take items, and sometimes it can be a very fun RP-oppritunity to go down with a group to explore a mysterious and dangerous area, or even a known area. There is more than one way to roleplay such adventures as I see it, and it doesnt always mean the player/group is farming monsters or loot, but simply players seeking something intresting to do and have fun in the game. Nothing inherently wrong with it as I see it, I do it myself, and everyone does.
There are many ways to RP revisiting areas, and spice it up a little. As Solitaire said, killing the Troll Chief with one of your characters, then doing it again with someone else who didnt do it could be RPed in the idea of trolls flocking down from the surrounding hills to reclaim their own lands (or how they would consider them), and a powerful one rising as a new chief.
Sometimes, and not often enough IMHO, a DM decides to spice matters up a bit. I think it's important to make things intresting and challanging for the player but still not making stuff impossible. I can give a few examples of things happening to my characters:
1) Muradin Bronzebeard, along with Jand and someone else I cant remember ( sorry), went in order to slay the Night Hag of Nebwood. She killed Muradin once, and now that he was stronger and with friends, he wanted revenge on what he considered as his current nemesis. A DM popped in, and decided that this Night Hag wont be so easy to kill, making her run into the temple of Gukathul to seek refuse from the three. Chasing after her into the depths of the Nebwood dungeon, fearlessly fighting off the undead, Muradin wanted vengeance. While Jand (and the other guy) advised him to go back, Muradin wouldnt stop. It wasnt a mindless powergaming decision, but was made of pure RP, especially considering the Night Hag kept popping and attacking when they tried to flee several times. When they finally slew the hag in the depths of the temple, the DM decided Gukathul is not going to let this invasion slide, and hordes of undead came to destroy the three. In their attempt to flee, they fought LOTS of undead, which presented a great challanage to the group, untill they left Nebwood. This was challanging, dangerous, and because it was possible, it was also a lot of fun. The three almost died several times, but it was possible for them to survive the battle, and they did (making Muradin waste about 40 healing kits :P).
2) Another example is Trent, Glordong and Eerel going to the caves in the gladden hills. It would be moderately difficult for them, but a DM decided to make it more challanging, making one of the high mages a bit more powerful (and a lot more annoying), and at last making the ogre high mage next to the chief very powerful and deadly. It was challanging and therefore was a lot more fun. Glordong died, yes, but even if we all died it was possible to be done and hence I would have no complaints. Even then, Trent managed to pray to Midoran and raise Glordong at the cost of his own health, and it also had a large impact on Trent knowing Midoran is with him. The rise in strength of the mage was RPed simply as a more powerful mage rising to power than the others.
3) Another small yet fun thing is my new character Alton asking help from an elven rogue, Tabius, to get Mrs. Piggins' recipes. Alton, while not being stupid, figured that the guy saying the recipes were stolen from him is lying, but decided to do it anyway. With Tabius' help, they went into the pie shop and planned how Tabius will enter unseen. Unexpectedly, though not unwelcome, a DM (or two?) came in. While Alton was attempting to draw the guards' attention, by telling them they have to go on their duty (based on "Finding the guards" quest), and saying there is a night mask in the plaza to make them go away, Tabius was breaking in. A DM or two roleplayed the NPCs, and made a simple quest a lot more fun.
I always welcome such interventions from DMs, making something a bit unchallanging or only moderately difficult as very challanging and filled with fun. As long as its possible to survive it, considering I wasnt doing anything wrong by going there (like being the 100th time I went there), I always welcome such spicing up on the DM side.
It's not always bad RP or powergaming to go into an area more than once. As long as its not overdone, I consider it fine. That is the line I'm speaking of when going to fight monsters, doing it several times, or doing it -too many- times.
I myself rarely go into places on my own, always using the players' stone to find someone to RP with instead, either just sitting around or similiar things, or going into an adventure (where its a lot more fun to do it with someone, since it puts RP in, than alone).
As for going for loot, I consider it the same thing as with farming monsters. Nothing bad with it unless done too much. The term 'guyvering' I have no problem with, and I didnt know and dont mind that it's taken from somewhere else like a bad 80's TV show or something. Since someone already mentioned the name, Johe Jaxon, I will only say that IMO he is a very good roleplayer and I enjoy roleplaying with him. Johe doesnt go into places for the sake of simple looting, but only when searching things for people, and seeing from my rather constant watching of the players' stone (looking for someone to RP with), he doesnt overdo it, and always puts RP into it as far as I see. Going occasionally into a dangerous place in search for items others requested from him is what Johe does, its not a poor RP excuse to looting, and I frown upon anyone who says it is (:P). It's Johe's RP, and I consider it a very good one, because from what I see it's done overdone - it does not cross the line between RP and powergamed looting.
Going into a place over and over again in search for items, this is what I consider powergaming. I dont see it done. Also, Llewen, dont forget there are other players in the game, and sometimes another low-level player or party went into the place and scoured it, and your character just came in late. It happens, server resets are not -that- often. If it happens all the time and close to a recent reset, then it can suggest farming/looting in the powergaming sense.
And one last thing, if you encounter such farming/looting players, I dont think nothing should prevent you from sending them a tell about it, trying to talk it over. Not all people come to Vives as the most experiences of roleplayers, and like I did when I first came, they also need to learn. I myself like the roleplaying prospect, whether it's sitting and talking or roleplaying an adventure or a DM-event. Others may enjoy roleplaying the fighting part more, and as long as its not overdone, I myself see nothing wrong with it.
I dont roleplay for the sake of "meta" rewards such as XP, levels or items. But I will lie, and I think most people if not everyone will, when I say I dont enjoy receiving such things when roleplaying. I have fun advancing my characters in levels and building them up, both in a "meta" way and because it contributes to their RP - when a character continues to advance and become more experienced in it's path, which opens up more RP oppritunities for it.
In a final line, I can only say: As long as people remember Vives is about roleplay, and act by it, I will be happy with the situation. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|