|
Item guidelines
Posted: 20 Aug 2004 08:17 AM |
Could we please have a public, updated list of the item guidelines. I get different responses from different DMs as to what is legal and what is illegal.
I've been duitifully reporting suspect items for months now and recently had my three most powerful armours taken off me because they were deemed illegal by a DM. Fine, I don't even care if I don't get something in return for them. What I DO care about, is later being told by a different DM that the items are perfectly legal.
I know this issue has been under review for a while now so if it's still being looked at no worries... but is there anything that could be done in the short term until a final decision is made? |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
|
  |
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 20 Aug 2004 08:19 AM |
Still being looked at. Please bear with us.
-Barnas |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 05:33 AM |
Can you give specific examples of what one DM said was acceptable that another did not?
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 05:40 AM |
Ring of Clear Thought +4.
:p
-Barnas |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 05:45 AM |
An item I wouldnt mind having clarification on is an item I have brought from ((cant remember who)).
Its a Robe of the Archmagi (or something). You have to be Neutral and it gives something like +5 AC and SR 10, +1 Universal Saving Throws.
Apparently (and this is second hand) Sol said it was legal. But someone else ((again I cannot remember who - but it was a PC) said it was illegal.
Thanks |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 05:49 AM |
That item is illegal. What's open to debate at the moment, mostly, is the policy for dealing with said illegal items.
-Barnas |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 06:04 AM |
I think the major subject of debate... is that any semblence of formalized rules for item legality was structured around acquisition sources. Since a very large degree of discrimination was made between whether the item was a random treasure drop, or a specific DM granted unique item as far as maximum potency was concerned, a lot of confusion has ensued these days, as items have come to mix hands.
I would personally rather see a scaled legality system set in place that adheres to the presently acknowledged economy of Vives. Previously, common items over +3 were banned, which I found ridiculous, because +3 items were find in chests on the side of the great plains. +3 items were a very popular commodity, which should never be a quality of the Creme de la Creme. The fact that the DM's enforced a rule that allowed a level 9 character rights to armament with equal potency to that of the epic characters on the server seemed obscene to me. This could of course be only a side effect of my private peeve with the potency with maximum master crafted items, but the facts remain. I believe in my heart that an epic character should have rights to at least a few selected epic possessions, And that any established new system should have a progression similar to the current Item level restrictions already in place. Ultimately, I believe that their should be NO item guidelines, and that if a perfect treasure system accomodating the guidelines of the administrative personnel was set in place, then everything would sort itself naturally, pardon a few minor flukes. (Level 4 characters finding Epic items in town). I should think that if Vives has a few level 20+ characters in its player base, that there should be at least a few items around with Level restrictions higher than 20. We must remember one of the main reasons the guidelines are in place, is to prevent overpowering the acceleration of a younger player, but Item level restrictions will often perform this task sufficiently. |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 06:43 AM |
I have to say I completely agree with Veran. Obviously the policy of the economy etc is for the DMs to set.
One thing I think would be nice is high level items that are rarely found in rare places but with high level restrictions on. Why? Just because it allows people to barter with high level characters. I actually looked in game for ages and ages for a useful item that I could give to a high level monk (Sinjin) as a gift to repay his friendship but couldnt find anything. This isnt really the point though I guess.
The only thing which I think seems a little jarring to me, is not to set item restrictions, thats sensible, but not to simply strip the items from characters who have them. That makes no RP sense to me whatsoever. One way I always dealt with mistakes with overpowered campaigns relating to items was to find an IC way of that item being "removed". If the PC found a good RP or strategic way around it then I deemed it earned by that player. This also meant you didnt have scenarios of having to RP a backtracked scenario.
Just a not very well thought out thought!
Incidentally can the person who sold me the robes come forward so I can blow them up!!! |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 07:02 AM |
OK, let me clear things up:
1/ vives is meant to be a low magic world. +1 to +3 is the "normal range" for magic items. +4 items are meant to be those "uber" items that come along every once in a great while. +5 are right out.
2/ The treasure tables in NWN are very tricky to get right. And to make things worse, if the engine is asked to find a "magical potion, uber", and it cannot find a suitable one in its treasure table, it will go ahead and pick an item from the standard tables - which includes items that are illegal in vives. The end result is that powerful items "leak" into the game
The tables are being worked on by Ara at the moment to correct the previous problems.
3/ If you end up with an item that is illegal, it will be stripped. Sorry. This cannot be helped. If we do not do this, then the server will become flooded with overpowering items and that is something we do not wish.
We want people to be overpowering in well played groups, not a single player who got lucky with magic drops and has the best items available.
The DM's have the discretion to replace the item with an acceptable one. The decision is up to the DM who finds the item. So, if you find an illegal item, it will go better for you if you come forward rather than waiting for the DM's to pour through the logs to find out who found what item that needs to be removed.
4/ Can/Will items be obtained that are outside the scope of normal items? Yes. But these items should exist as DM rewards for fine play, and excellent RP, or the result of quests. They should not be random treasure drops.
Having said that, there are only three things that that need to be done from the Admin side
a) fix the treasure tables so these items do not get in: its being worked on
b) review the player inventories and remove the items that are considered too powerful. Replacement is optional.
c) prepare an item guideline so that players can check on the essential information forums as to what is considered legal and what is not. After that, there should be no questions about what is considered legal and what is not.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 03:15 PM |
OK, let me clear things up:
1/ vives is meant to be a low magic world. +1 to +3 is the "normal range" for magic items. +4 items are meant to be those "uber" items that come along every once in a great while. +5 are right out.
This means there are no creatures, in Vives, that require +5 weapons or greater to harm... right? |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 05:21 PM |
Yes, there are. In fact, there are plenty of them if you know what caves and tombs to look in.
However, that is more than adequately addressed by spells like: greater magic weapon.
if people wish to tackle ancient dragons (oops, I gave away that particular secret), then they had best be prepared. This means having a caster of the right level to provide support, or a skilled fighter capable of doing enough damage to exceed the damage resistance of the creature, or a moderate level arcane archer.
Personally, I prefer the high level caster, especially clerics, as they can bring back the dead assuming they don't get off'ed in the battle.
Except for those few epic creatures (not just the ancient dragons) with an epic-vives DR, there are no other creatures placed IG that has a DR of more than +3 (that I am aware of).
I think that is fair enough.
- Paul
PS: We had one recent episode on the demons/wardstone quest where the ice dragon was chasing us around the buildings in the Icy Vale while we were madly trying to get Daimon's sword enchanted so he could hurt the thing. That was a lot more fun and exciting than doing the "ho-hum, we pull our our swords and kill it" routine that would have happened had everyone one had uber weapons. Heck, had anyone had uber weapons.
PPS: Vives is meant to be tough, but not stacked against you. High levels of magic items available makes it a much harder balance. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 06:47 PM |
I see what you are saying, and I do technically agree. My thought is though, how about there -can- be +5 weapons, but only given by DM's, must be over a certain level, and do some sort of quest. ie. lvl 30 Paldain of Midoran goes on a quest to kill Vestlat or somesuch, and if he succeeds Midoran sees fit to forge a holy avenger type sword for the paladin.
Would that be in the realm of possibility, or are +5 weapons simply going to be "right out"? |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 08:28 PM |
I'm all for stripping illegal items straight off players that have them. If they're not supposed to be there, just pretend you never found anything in the spawn location.
As for crafting items. Veran, the items you can create are quite powerful. That doesn't mean you can't create more powerful items, you're making one right now IG as far as I can tell. You just need a DM's help to do it.
And I don't think we need greater than +3/+4 items. There has to be a limit somewhere and I think the current limits are working quite well.
The only thing I'm hanging out for is a definitive list of legal/illegal items.... and Cantor's shop of course. :) |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 23 Aug 2004 10:59 PM |
OK, let me clear things up:
1/ vives is meant to be a low magic world. +1 to +3 is the "normal range" for magic items. +4 items are meant to be those "uber" items that come along every once in a great while. +5 are right out.
See, Here's my issue... If +1 to +3 are considered the normal Range... then they should be distributed as the normal "range" Previously.... +3 weapons were just a cut off point... and I don't like that abrupt breach of gradience. Instead of making +4 suddenly uber and once and a great while (+4 isn't all that better than +3.... not nearly as much as +3 is better than +2.. that's for dang sure) We should have a range between +1's and +4's, making distrubution sloped... likely exponentially.
For Example.... +1's could make up 90% of the weapons. +2's can make up 9%... +3's make up 0.9% and +4's can be 0.09%... And then that last 0.01% can be something weird, like those Racial +5's, or just 5's in general
Also... A large amount of discrimination should be paid to the difference between enchancement, Attack bonus.. and Damage bonus. I would say that an Attack bonus +5 weapon should be legal, even though a +5 weapon (Enchancement) should not be. This will make a rare weapon able to pierce the highest DR (And that can be stressed) but lack many other redeemable qualities... I'd personally take a +2 enchancement over a +5 attack bonus weapon anyday, but people think my taste in weapon properties is strange. Nevertheless, I am quite familiar with the game engine, and I can tell you that my taste is very effective.
I've always also had a big beef with longbows. a Longbow +3 is in no way equal to a longsword +3.... bow's only accept attack bonuses, not damage enchancing bonuses, and we must all remember that Mighty is not really a damage bonus... its a limit, and that all weapons in the game besides bows have Mighty + infiinity. I'm not an archer though, so I don't really care. I'll let someone else fight that fight. |
The Legacy Saga |
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 24 Aug 2004 02:18 AM |
Ahh.. yes.. but longbows can be combined with magic arrows... (the effects stack) and they have the huge advantage of range which needs to be considered when comparing it to a melee weapon. Longbows are balanced... what isn't balanced is thrown weapons. You get your str bonus, your attack bonus and unlimited range. In PnP you can only throw them about 20 feet, in NWN you can piff them for miles!
*Pugs gets out his rocket-propelled throwing axes*]
Also Veran, a weapon with just +5 attack bonus isn't going to penetrate any DR. Only an Enhancement bonus can penetrate DR.
As for +3 weapons being common, they're considerably less common these days, but a +3 weapon is hardly the most potent legal magical weapon you can get IG. A +3 weapon with some other enchantment/s on it is the most powerful magical item you can get. For example, the frostblade we looted of the frost giant king is a +3 greatsword with +1D6 frost damage and a blue light enchantment. It's the best weapon I've seen IG (other than Cantor's axe which was a DM quest reward) and is very rare on the treasure tables. So while +3 is the best enchantment you can get a straight +3 weapon is hardly the best you can find. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
|
|
|
|
Re: Item guidelines
Posted: 24 Aug 2004 02:34 AM |
| the only problem with setting a fixed limit on things is that they don't scale. While setting a limit to +3 on weapons is fine (because at least AB increases at epic levels), it's a much bigger problem with e.g. armor class since that does not (in general) increase. I find it a problem when you might as well be fighting in your underwear than wear your armor, having armor protection should always be useful and potentially make a difference.... |
|
|
|
|