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New players
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 05:46 AM |
Hiya folks,
Having talked with a few players, and some DM's, I know there is a feeling we could really do with a few new players. I know that especially at GMT times it can get very quiet. I hear the US times are better...but they still seem quiet too often at the times they overlap with GMT, even at the weekends.
So thought I'd start a thread to encourage people to do something about it. Ive started a thread on the bioware boards in my usual long winded, waffling style. If anyone can see anything to add to it, or just agreement with what a great world this is, please post away.
Bioware Forums
Also, I know Alo and others have really pushed for people to vote for this world on the bioware site. And still some regular players have not done so. If Vives ranks high enough, it can get onto the hall of fame. Or at least higher up the league table. The only thing this really means in my book is that players surfing those places will be more likely to look at Vives, and those that like this kind of world will hopefully try it out. So please VOTE.
NWvault Gameworld Page
Hopefully these links work, but I am technologically inept so if not hopefully someone can fix 'em! :0)
And also please use this thread for any ideas on things we could do to attract new players.
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: New players
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 07:31 AM |
| Been there and done both :) |
Elvalia - Chosen of Aros
Elrith Mellin
Perin - 'Cleric (an' drewid) o' Elbreff' Weddin's an' pies a speciarality
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Re: New players
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 10:31 AM |
Sirac, whilst I agree more GMTers would be great I think we need to do things around the other way. At the moment with your sales pitch we have the ability to gain lots of new RPers but I think that the way things are many will just leave again.
None of the top servers in that list have criticisms like this one that I found today:
I was interested in this world, so I downloaded the enormous hakpack and applied for an account. I then had four hours to "test run" it. I showed up to find a beautiful but empty world with creatures too powerful for me to kill. After wandering into the nearby deserted town with not items for sale, I discovered that about half of all the players on the server were in the OOC room. I asked some of the players in my league if they would like to adventure and was told to "buzz off" by the DMs. After about two hours of this snobbish behavior I finally found someone who was willing to talk to me. He seemed very nice and had glowing reviews of the world. I then met a few other newbees and began to start my adventure when...my 4 hours was up. Overall, I had little fun and was NOT made to feel welcome by the DM staff. The world seemed like it had some promise, but I'd rather play on a friendly server.
Now whilst I dont agree with everything this guy says a number of people both on and off this server have made the same criticism. Its pretty but empty. I think Vives really needs to look at itself and accept that there are a great deal of people that have slated this server and if it really wants to grow and attract good RPers it needs to look at why.
At present there is very much a status quo ethos here. Now, there is nothing wrong with that because of people enjoy it then the server is fine to suit those people. Just dont expect others to stay long. Vives, from what I have noticed is slowing down, and it needs to take radical steps to change that.
Now I know some may wonder why I stay here since I am quite clearly a critic of Vives. The reason is simple. There are some superb RPers here and I mean truly superb. Vives also has amazing foundations and outstanding potential. The reason I stay is that I hope that it achieves that potential and if I can help then I will. I would like to see Vives #1 in that list and I believe it could be. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: New players
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 10:36 AM |
I must admit, sometimes I have sympathy with that guy's point of view. When I started here, I found it hard to fit in because I didn't understand some of the systems (PCinfo tool ETC).
That being said, as your knowledge of the world grows (IC and OOC), I'm sure you agree that it becomes a much more relaxed and pleasurable environment to play in.
Vives has some of the best RPers on any RP PW there is. We'd all like to see more of them. I agree that Vives could be #1 in that list (Though I don't rate that list too highly, since it's so hideously corrupt.)
-Barnas
[Edit: And, looking at the vault, that comment was made a -long- time ago. We've taken care to make sure that DMs never tell a player to buzz off just because they don't understand a system; and I'd hope that the players we have occupying our server -now- wouldn't be so rude to anyone. I'd expect more of them. :)] |
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Re: New players
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 11:00 AM |
I agree Barnas, and to be honest either as a newbie or a semi-older hack now, I've never experienced the "buzz of attitude" that guy alluded to.
BUT, it is still a negative comment against our name which we would have to overcome, and secondly the comment that I have heard a number of times "Pretty but empty", still is, in the main (for GMTers atleast) so very true.
Put simply, there is next to nothing to do during GMT hours. Some find their entertainment, others wont and will go else where. I really see Vives become the "all-time round the world" PW server to play on. Just think it needs some big changes first. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: New players
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 11:21 AM |
Akril,
You say that changes need to be made, but don't list any suggestions.
Please can you suggest some concise, constructive suggestions for change?
cheers
Jane |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: New players
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 01:16 PM |
Let me give you some insight regarding the comment on NWVault you refer to.
The player in question popped into the OOC room whilst myself and another DM were handling an administrative matter with another player. We informed the player, nicely, that we were busy with something at the moment and that we could not immediately respond to his demands to be quested and interacted with in an ooc manner. This player then became what we in the business refer to as an "asshole", spouting off about how unfriendly we were, how we didn't care about players, etc etc etc. I would also point out that this player was on during a decidedly off-peak time, so I would not expect him to find a multitude of players.
This player also had his application rejected, which of course generates sour grapes.
In fact, after reading his comment, I reported it to Maximus, and laid out the circumstance. This and other suspect votes/comments have been reported multiple times, yet no action is ever taken.
At the end of the day, you're going to have people who have unrealistic expectations, which when they aren't met, think they have been done some great disservice. The bottom line, and one we have to accept, is that you cannot please everybody, all of the time. We do the best we can to please the types of players that we want to have around. Folks who fall outside that scope are noise.
EDIT: Truly the best advertising we can possibly get is word of mouth. Know some players that play in the same style? Invite them! We as staff can say this is a great place all day long, but it's much more effective coming from players. |
Question Authority! |
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Re: New players
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 02:59 PM |
Sirac, whilst I agree more GMTers would be great I think we need to do things around the other way. At the moment with your sales pitch we have the ability to gain lots of new RPers but I think that the way things are many will just leave again.
At present there is very much a status quo ethos here. Now, there is nothing wrong with that because of people enjoy it then the server is fine to suit those people. Just dont expect others to stay long. Vives, from what I have noticed is slowing down, and it needs to take radical steps to change that.
Now I know some may wonder why I stay here since I am quite clearly a critic of Vives. The reason is simple. There are some superb RPers here and I mean truly superb. Vives also has amazing foundations and outstanding potential. The reason I stay is that I hope that it achieves that potential and if I can help then I will. I would like to see Vives #1 in that list and I believe it could be.
First off, if what I wrote was a sales pitch, it was one based 100% in fact and the way I view Vives to be. And if that is good enough to get players to try Vives, I honestly believe Vives and its community is more than good enough to keep them.
Yes, gmt hours are underpopulated. And I was trying to do something about that. All your comments are likely to do is make that harder. Dredging up a quote from the distant past that has no actual bearing on the experience of 99.9% of players, and sticking that in a thread on the front page that any new players are likely to read!? How about instead doing what you can to bring in new players?
If enough new blood comes into this world...they will truly enjoy it. I did, most if not all of you reading this have, so why wouldn't they? But if people dont make any effort to let people know what a great world we have, then yes people will join in tiny numbers and people will be scared off by scarcity of numbers.
Or instead of shouting its praises we could all focus on our little pet hates, and say things like 'radical changes are needed'. :0)
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: New players
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 04:29 PM |
I'll tell you what, and Im sure I can predict the response this is going to get, but you dont really stand much of a chance encouraging new blood and you will certainly never increase the status of this server on any ratings lists (although I do agree with Barnas's comments about the respectability of that poll).
The reason I say this is because there is an homogonised group here on Vives that hate to see criticism and the moment it appears, rather than take stock, that group leap to the defence of Vives, justifying their position and ostricising those that disagree. To make myself clear this is in the main not by DMs but a small group of PCs.
Landru, of course you are right in that you cannot please all people all of the time and that you are more than entitled to have a server the way you want it for the satisfaction of the group you want. If thats the case, then thats fine, but accept that the server will be for a small group that you have aligned yourself to. If however, as Sirac has suggested, you campaign to encourage new players and in particular GMT players, then you have to at least take stock of the reason why Vives has become slower since January of this year, particularly for that very time zone.
With reference to the NWN post I quoted, first, I wasnt in anyway legitimising what that guy said in the main, nor was I displaying it here for people to take account of for its content per se. What I was pointing out, is the poll Sirac was hoping for us to score well on had this kind of bad publicity against our name!!!! Agree with it or not, have a defence and justification for it or otherwise, its still a negative comment reported against Vives that none of the other big servers have against theirs. So what ever you think the merits of his report are, you still need to overcome it to do well as Sirac was hoping to do!!!
But, and Im really sorry to say this, to simply brush it aside is indicative of one of the greatest problems facing this server. Yes you love it, yes its something you work hard for, and of course you are going to want to defend it, especially where you think its unjust. But, it seems that as soon as you see a criticism (and by you I mean that group I was referring to) you jump to the defence without really taking account of its purpose, or intention.
I would like to consider myself a valuable part of the Vives community. I wouldnt be here making these lengthy posts if I didnt think Vives was a valuable server. My comments are constructive and designed to help. BUT, because it is a negative its immediately attacked, without appreciating that it comes from a friend trying to help.
Sirac, sorry, but your wrong both in saying that I am not helping by making these posts on the front page or that 99.9% of people are happy on Vives. 99.9% of a certain group might be happy but not the vast contingent of people that have played here. That is not to say they are unhappy either, however. Secondly, its only by discussing these issues that Vives will gain a better rating and its only by people coming here, checking our forum and seeing them discussed properly and with consideration that our status will be improved. What doesnt help, is new players or potential players, seeing a constructive criticism shot down by people who think Vives is perfect and that anyone that thinks otherwise is just plain wrong!!!!
Solitaire, whilst I would normally agree with you that constructive criticism should come with a proposal, I do not think this the appropriate post for such things as this was a general issue thread not a wishlist. However, I have made numerous posts, with numerous suggestions, had numerous conversations with DMs in IRC and PMs about such proposals. I therefore would like to think Im not simply one of those people who complains without a real solution in hand (or at least an attempt at such).
Important Conclusion
Whether you agree with my ideas or not about individual changes, please please please accept that this some of us are trying to help you. The single biggest harmful facit of Vives is the attitude held by a small minority that "We are fine the way we are, but know we must hold a pretence of wishing to hear comments." There is too much defensiveness and the bottom line is it creates a clique and marginalises other people and stops Vives reaching its potential.
You've lost players, you'll continue to do so. Say you dont care if you will but then dont expect to reach that goal you were hoping for.
Every once in a while you'll get people like me that are both brave enough and caring enough to make these kind of comments. See them for what they are, people trying to help. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: New players
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 05:56 PM |
First I didn't say that 99.9% of people are happy on vives. I said your quote was relevant to, and reflected the views of hardly any players.
I for one didn't see your post as in any way constructive. I'm not part of any group, real or imagined, that fits your above description. But you seem to see yourself as the spokesman for an entire group of players. I would seriously question that...most...no actually all players I've spoken with do not share your criticisms or viewpoints. And Sol and I are very active GMT players.
And yes the vote system has that one comment. How many amazingly positive and constructive comments does it have? I'd think most prospective players of a world like this would note that that one comment stands virtually alone. And thankfully will at least read Landru's explanation of the background to that comment now.
And as for the vives team not listening to, or taking on board constructive discussion...all I can say is your experience is the direct opposite of mine then. Maybe it's what you've said, and how you've said things? I'd just point you in the direction of the UMD thread for a recent example of how the vives team do listen. And I have personally known many other such examples.
Anyway, I don't want to escalate this any further. I strongly disagree with your viewpoint, and the manner and place in which you've chosen to express it. Am happy to discuss this further privately...but if you don't see any purpose in us trying to attract new players, then I am really sorry you feel that way. And I can only presume that is what you mean by saying we will lose them as soon as they join, unless 'radical changes' are made. But I hope and believe you are in the distinct minority with your opinion there...
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 03:58 AM |
First off I apologise for mis-understanding your statistic. But in turn I think you have misunderstood my position. Im not saying that we shouldnt encourage more players and GMTers, as personally I think that would be great. What I was saying is that now is not the time because players will IMO mostly leave again.
The criticism that came in this post is that there needs to be some changes (which as I understood were going ahead anyway). But, as per usual, there came that torrent of defensiveness, "Vives is fine the way it is" "Most people like Vives" "Your in the minority". My issue then became this element of Vives that wont listen to the others. And I made it perfectly clear in my last post that this was not leveled at the DM/ Admin team but a group of individuals.
Now, Sirac, Im not a spokesman in that I do not speak for others, but my views do represent that of many and I hate to tell you that you are vastly in the minority. Now first, before I justify that, let me make one thing clear. There is nothing wrong with that! Vives can be a server for those kind of people if you choose. But if you choose, then realise that is you market, but it will mean you wont reach the top as you'll need to be more encompassing.
Ok, now how do I justify it. First, your not the only one to accuse me of being a minority, and have professed the view "Everyone I have spoke to......." Now, since I doubt very highly that you have canvassed that many people that "Everyone I have spoke to..." argument is that convincing. I can do just the same as well you know. Since yesterday a number of people have sent me messages telling me they agree with what I have said. We can both make such assertions but it doesnt achieve anything. Secondly, look at who you speak to and then compare that to other facts.
1) There are less people actively playing on Vives than there were 6 months ago when I joined (at an allegedly quite time of the server).
2) There are less posts on the forum daily then there were that many months ago.
3) Lots of regular players have left this server because they have been unable to get along here.
4) Lots of Newbies sign up, play for a bit and then are never seen again
5) Im not the first person to have complained about this sort of thing in a truly big post.
Now, the people that account for these facts are far more numerous than the group included in your "Everyone" post. The difference is, most of those people will leave quietly, but some seem to be happy with that.
Now lets return to the central issue of what this debate has become. There are a small group of people that will automatically spring to the defence of Vives against any that criticise it, simply because they wont hear criticism. AND that is a very big problem, completely independant of changes that I think should take place and as I am aware are taking place. A perfect example was my post about CNR changes that would bring about a solution to why CNR is boring and the solo problem of GMT. I was attacked because my idea was allegedy that bad, and there was allegedly no problem. Then after a debate suddenly there was an "empiphany" and my idea (although perhaps amended) was proposed as a great idea.
Now, if instead of the attack "Your wrong, Everyones happy with the current system, your a minority....." argument, people had said, something like "I take on board what your saying, think your idea has the following problems how about X instead" (just like Arathon was doing), then this problem would not exist.
Im happy to talk this through with you privately in IRC or something, but you and I arent going to solve this between ourselves, and furthermore, trying to keep this out of the public discussion area again only goes to show that we're not that transparent about dealing with issues and criticism. When we are, then we may be able to become one of those top servers. If I were to look elsewhere, I wouldnt want to see a community that never complains, I would want to see one that does where healthy debate and not defensive attacking takes place.
Now, Ive raised a problem. You arguing with me telling me it does not exist only serves to prove me right. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 04:51 AM |
4 points :
1 - There are still no constructive suggestions here for actual improvement. If you think new players will join and leave, what specifically can be done to prevent this? And you can't use the attitude of un-named people as a reason, I bet no-one you are talking about even realises you have put them in this supposed group.
The reason I say this is because there is an homogonised group here on Vives that hate to see criticism and the moment it appears, rather than take stock, that group leap to the defence of Vives, justifying their position and ostricising those that disagree. To make myself clear this is in the main not by DMs but a small group of PCs.
What does it matter anyway if this is a small group of players with these opinions? It is up to =all= players to give feedback, and in the end the admins/DMs make the decisions for change. So you say it's some players not accepting criticism, does this mean you accept the DMs/admins =do= accept criticism and make changes?
2 - You say people have contacted you to say they agree with you;
a) Please ask them to put forward some suggestions for improvement themselves.
b) You disgregard Sirac's argument because he phrased it "everyone I've spoken too" well I can tell you that several (8 or 9) people have contacted Sirac to say they agree with his POV, and no-one has contacted him to say they disagree. So I can back up his statement!
3 - Solitaire, whilst I would normally agree with you that constructive criticism should come with a proposal, I do not think this the appropriate post for such things as this was a general issue thread not a wishlist. However, I have made numerous posts, with numerous suggestions, had numerous conversations with DMs in IRC and PMs about such proposals. I therefore would like to think Im not simply one of those people who complains without a real solution in hand (or at least an attempt at such).
Well start a new post then if you have new things to say.
And I am certain your previous posts, conversastions etc. have been taken into consideration. This doesn't mean everything will be changed to your liking. But you must also realise that change is slow, especially when people are doing things in their own spare time.
Problems -are- being looked as at perceived by the DM/admin team, unless you actually put forward some considered, concise, constructive ideas, they will not know your and other players opinions.
4 - I strongly believe you are in the minority too Akril, if there are other people out there who agree with him/you, then we all need to see this and the reasons why, and (as I keep saying) some constructive ideas we can put in place instead of general complaining.
Cheers
Jane |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 05:01 AM |
Right, I've kept my replies succinct and to the point until now. But maybe if I use the same length of post you seem to favour, some of what I say may actually be listened to by you.
You are determined to play some game of one upmanship. You have totally de-railed the whole point of this thread. And you have spent far more time attacking me, and this group I seem to belong to, than I have you. This is the first time I've ever disagreed with you publically. I asked for this to be taken privately, or at least to another thread but no, here we are again. You continue to rant with incredible verbosity, without any sign you have the faintest interest in what anyone else says.
The simple fact is you haven't been around for quite a while. And since you've come back the vast majority of your posts have been critical...you are a self confessed Vives critic.
Now while you are entitled to your opinions, and discussion is important, I wish you could have started your own thread and kept out of this one. If you do not feel Vives can hold new players, then discuss it by all means. But you have shown a complete disregard for the opinions and efforts of others by de-railing this thread into your own personal argument. You are more concerned with proving yourself right than actually doing anything constructive about your perceived problems.
And yes I have had numerous people agree with my viewpoints, indeed I have been far more diplomatic than I think many of them would have been. I actually agree with you about Vives being too empty, especially at GMT time. Your solution to that seems to be to make sweeping statements of there being a mysterious group of people who are ruining vives, and to say players wouldn't stay. My solution is to try and advertise this world I love playing in, because I feel there are plenty of other players out there that would love it also, and don't have the opportunity to find out about it.
Vives -is- selective. From the application process onwards it is selective, and it is intended to be so. Nobody is trying to appeal to a mass market here. What I -was- trying to do was attract two or three good gmt rp'ers to vives, rp'ers that would contribute to, and love being here. If I was one of those rp'ers, came here having had my interest sparked, and the first thing I read was that quote you put up on the first thread likely to be read by a newcomer, what do you think is likely to happen? A quote put up their by an established player of vives. And accompanied by negative rhetoric about the vives experience. Personally I think I would probably turn back round and go look somewhere else. So tell me how that is in any way constructive to making Vives a better place?
Most of my arguments have not been dismissing your own. Not saying that it is not good to talk about perceived issues. Anyone who knows me knows that I would always encourage open discussion. And any time I have had a problem with vives I've been able to sort it out in that manner. Mainly through private discussion, only bringing it into the public forums in a constructive manner when it really affects a lot of people.
What I have been saying is choose the time, place and manner in which you discuss those issues a little better. The quote you put in your opening post was sensationalist, out of date, irrelevant and incredibly out of place in this thread. And your opinions since have been strongly expressed to the detriment of what I was trying to achieve.
And you seem to genuinely be trying to tell me that the majority of players on this world think it's so poor that people would not stay if they gave it a try. And that the quote you put in your first mail was in any way relevant or constructive. I'm sorry but I simply don't believe that.
Anyway, to conclude, thank you to those who -have- sent posts to the Bioware boards. Or voted for Vives. It's just a shame the first thing they are going to read here is this. Akril, no matter what you say I will not respond any further to any comments from you in this thread. I totally expect you to reply to this publically, and have the last word. If you wish to discuss this further with me personally, I will only do so privately.
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 06:02 AM |
*fans flames*
Personally Akril, I found your posts inflamatory without offering anything of value in return.
I think Vives really needs to look at itself and accept that there are a great deal of people that have slated this server and if it really wants to grow and attract good RPers it needs to look at why.
and
Just think it needs some big changes first.
Perhaps it was not your intent, but it was your result.
If you wish to make broad sweeping statements like this, please at least have the consideration of backing them up. Take it to another thread and it can be discussed. Making accusations without providing evidence serves no one's purpose.
===
Have there been problems? Yes, but I feel that most things are being addressed, or are being addressed, or will be addressed. At least that is the conclusion that I can draw based on the changes in the last few months. The addition of new DM's and new plots is the least of the evidence of this.
Is Vives the server for everyone? No, absolutely not. This is a dedicated RP server that interests those more interested in RP than quick levelling.
Does there seem to be a reduction in the number of characters active on the server at any one time? Yes, absolutely. In the first three months of this year alone, it was not uncommon to see an average of about 20 players on at any one time. By May, around 10 or so. After May, less.
In my opinion, (and this is my opinion only) the first reduction happened because of the lag problems. That lag problem appears to have been greatly reduced.
The second reduction appears to have happened when the residual XP cap was reduced. I guess that those people left because they wanted to gain levels faster than what they could do on this server.
Would I like to see more players online during the times I play, of course. It doesn't take the addition of many active players to make things busier again.
now, some stats:
In the past 14 days (anyone who has played with the last two weeks are active in my mind) there have been 117 characters logged into the server. Of those, 44 have more than 100 hours IG. Of the rest, 48 of those have more than 10 hours IG. The remaining 25 are still in their trial period and may or may not continue.
This does not count players, but characters. Even assuming an average of 2 characters per player, that still seems like a reasonable number of active players (~50)
If anyone has specific issues to be addressed, please take it to another thread and make constructive comments, i.e. describe the problem as you see it and describe a possible solution.
Does this mean that every wish and whim will get acted on? Probably not. This server is being run by a group of people in their spare time for their own fun.
If you find it fun here, great, stay and add to it. If not, well, perhaps you will get lucky and find another server that is more to your taste.
Personally, I'm enjoying this one.
- Paul
PS: Is insulting people obligatory?
PPS: Ah, what the heck. Sean, Sirac is a wimp and his mommy wears army boots. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 07:12 AM |
PPS: Ah, what the heck. Sean, Sirac is a wimp and his mommy wears army boots.
Oooooo!!!! Burn!!!!!
erm...yes. You can now return to your regularly scheduled programming. |
Sai Barris, Scamp-at-Large
Cynda LeRange, Reporter, Port Royale
Parson Droim Raine, Preacha o da Word o Swiftfoot |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 07:21 AM |
PPS: Ah, what the heck. Sean, Sirac is a wimp and his mommy wears army boots.
Hmmph. Shut it fatso. Oh yea, anyone who doesn't know, Paul is about 5'6'' and weighs 20 stone. That's about 280 lbs to you non-Brits. So he told me, honestly. What a lard bucket!
*grins and runs off to hide from Luther*
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 07:32 AM |
Im sorry Sirac, but if anyone has gone for a one upmanship campaign to prove their point its not me. I have not de-railed this tread at all.
Lets take a look at how it started. You suggested a recruitment drive, particularly for GMTers. I responded saying I thought it was a good idea but I didnt think now was the time. I made a statement that:
Sirac, whilst I agree more GMTers would be great I think we need to do things around the other way. At the moment with your sales pitch we have the ability to gain lots of new RPers but I think that the way things are many will just leave again.
That was neither a criticism (the reference to sales pitch was a compliment. You sold Vives well) nor a sweeping statement. That would have been people will come but they will ALL leave. In my opinion as many have left in the past, many will leave again. That was the point of this thread. Not making suggestions for reform, not criticising Vives or its progress, but merely saying I did not think now was the time to recruit GMTers because we would lose alot of them. If however we WAIT till the proposals that are being suggested by Arathon etc go ahead then when we recruit they MIGHT just stay. So Solitaire whilst I agree with putting forward proposals this is not the place and I have done so elsewhere, this is not the thread for suggestions which I have already given. The suggestion here was to wait until things were put in place for reform.
Now, where this post has turned sour is because I quoted something said by another person on the poll you wanted to succeed in. I posted it for two reasons:
1) Because its negative publicity we need to overcome; and
2) Because I agreed with ONE point he made. Namely the emptiness of Vives.
Sirac, in your last post you agreed with that point:
I actually agree with you about Vives being too empty, especially at GMT time.
So if you agree with that, the only other issue was the nagative publicity we need to overcome, which I cannot see your issue with me saying. You did however go on to say:
Your solution to that seems to be to make sweeping statements of there being a mysterious group of people who are ruining vives, and to say players wouldn't stay.
And this is where things have gone bad. I never mentioned anything about this "mysterious group" as a solution in my first post. I merely suggested we should make the changes and then recruit not the other way around. My comment about the group followed the attack I received for my post. The reason I raised it there is because ironically the essence of the remainder of the other guys flame was that we are a clique.
Whist I dont agree with it in the way he suggested, I do think there is a group that wont see Vives criticised and that has driven people away. That was the evolution of this thread not me de-railing it.
The Upshot
So lets go back to basics. I think we should wait until the changes take place before we recruit people to Vives. I also think that if we want to challenge the other servers we need a different approach to dealing with criticism rather than defend the status quo and attack the suggestor.
Do you not agree? |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 07:44 AM |
Do you not agree?
Not really. Whilst you have skillfully reitereated every point from your first post, and whilst you have repeatedly defended every point from it; you have not you actually answered the question asked of you by Jane; and indeed others- what -are- these changes which you are so intent upon demanding?
-Barnas |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 08:31 AM |
The reason I havent anwered it is because this is neither the post for it nor the issue being discussed. Moreover, I suspect any identification of those suggestions would side track what is the main part of this debate. What I am suggesting here is that we wait until the changes that have been promised occur before we recruit. But since it has become that important:
1) A change to the CNR system to make it more interesting Here
2) More GMT DMs that are active during GMT hours. Here
3) More quests for people to do when the server is quiet Here
4) More quests that have an RP element*
5) More PC involvement in the running of Vives, e.g. Guilds and Nations etc Here
6) Better transport system for newbies Here
7) More proportionate RP xp against Combat XP, particuraly for Newbies yet to be noticed.*
8) Areas where low-levelers can go, defeat stuff and get a sense of achievement without 5th level characters being defeated by 3 kobalds. (OK thats a newone)
9) A community in which you can post your views without being ostracised because a core dont agree. (Thats this post in case you hadnt realised).
*Post are out there but cant find them. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 08:45 AM |
hi Akril
Everyone here is entitled to give their opinions, and many of yours I support in certain aspects, certainly things such as focus on lower level characters and more scripted Quests and the like...... I am beavering away behind the scenes to get some more of this kind of thing in game.
We are also taking to heart your other suggestions, and are working upon them :D Might take quite a bit of time to get them al completed, but we -do listen :)
Cheers
Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 08:48 AM |
1) A change to the CNR system to make it more interesting Here
In the works.
2) More GMT DMs that are active during GMT hours. Here
Being dealt with.
3) More quests for people to do when the server is quiet Here
We are currently working on 5-6 more static quests, however these 1 shot scripted quests require a lot of resource, and can only be done once. Thus we do not focus on them too greatly. This isn't a SP campaign.
4) More quests that have an RP element*
All quests have an RP element. What's the point of them if they don't?
5) More PC involvement in the running of Vives, e.g. Guilds and Nations etc Here
PCs who earn it gain power. Blance La Belle was on the Midoran Tribunal, Ilyana Fiirhart is High Priestess of Naruth, Fri'el Skygem was High Priestess of Gukathul.... the key there is PCs who earn their status through RP. There are others in positions which could be called "Power" as well.
6) Better transport system for newbies Here
You can have the money to take the boat to Midor before leaving the Fourwinds Inn. What's wrong with that?
7) More proportionate RP xp against Combat XP, particuraly for Newbies yet to be noticed.*
We try. But we can't just sit and watch RP and then reward it all day. We have limited time and RL commitments as well.
8) Areas where low-levelers can go, defeat stuff and get a sense of achievement without 5th level characters being defeated by 3 kobalds. (OK thats a newone)
I'd point to Carfax, Gorlath Keep, and the many other areas where two or three level 2-3s can go. And we are working on more, and adressing the percieved monster issues.
9) A community in which you can post your views without being ostracised because a core dont agree. (Thats this post in case you hadnt realised).
You're not being ostrasized. But you have a right to state their ideas, and people have a right to state theirs. The fact that most of them disagree with you means that it -will- make you seem outspoken (Because, quite simply, you are.)
That's just life.
-Barnas |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 10:32 AM |
OK, Im glad this is getting somewhere. First of Barnas, I wasnt listing them for discussion just point. But nevertheless as you and Arathon have said "Things are in progress".
So for one last time I will return to my original post; wait till then before we recruit!!!!!!
Let me give you an example of why I say this.
You've all heard of Quasar, Lazer quest (or any other variation of some place you go run around shooting people with lazer guns) right? Well in my home city they came up with this place which combined go carting with lazer quest. Two seater cars, one person is the driver the other is the gunner.
They launched it before they had everything just right. Did a big launch and loads of people came. But it wasnt ready and many people didnt like it and left. Some came back, but because there werent that many people around they didnt like it the second time.
Result? They went bankrupt within 6 months.
If we recruit GMTers before these plans are in place they will quite likely get bored and leave, because unlike other Time zones there is greater dependancy on having other stuff to enteratain. Wait till there is more stuff for them to and they will stay, which in turn will mean there is more GMT RPers which in turn will make GMT a not so empty place.
My point really is that simple. The only other aspect is that we need to work even harder if we want to beat the top servers on the slot because we have negative posts.
*sighs hoping people realise he is genuinly a Vives supporter. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: New players
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 08:19 PM |
Alright, I haven't read the whole post but I read most of it, getting down the bottom it just seemed to be repeating itself.
Firstly, I agree with Akril on most of the things he's put up here.
His point in posting here, as I understand it, was to argue that now is not the time to attract new players because upon reaching here, most will simply leave again due to the "pretty but empty" aspect of Vives. That IS a constructive post. Saying, "This is a bad idea" is not constructive. Saying "This is a bad idea because..." IS constructive.
I'm glad to hear there are more static quests upon the way, I think static quests are the most important area of growth we need to work in to attract players. Vives simply isn't an attractive option for a solo player and thats what most new players are, ESPECIALLY those in the GMT and Asia/Oceania timezones. You need to keep the new players entertained until they can come to see the REAL value that Vives has to offer.
His post was also constructive in trying to expose a social mechanisim that is holding back Vives' development. That being the group of extremely conservative players who jump upon any critisism of Vives, constructive or otherwise. Not all suggestions ARE good, but they should all be taken seriously and this conservative attitude belittles attempts by players/DMs to identify areas where Vives could do with improvement.
One final point. Please, PLEASE, do NOT take threads like this to a private forum/PMs. It is not up to Sirac and Akril or any other two players to discuss or make decisions upon issues such as this. It is an issue that affects the whole community, so the entire community needs to see it and be able to respond if they have somethign to add. PMs should be used to settle personal differences and IC issues/plot development etc. An extension of the conservative attitude in Vives is this desire to hide all "negative" posts away where as few people can see them as possible. That attitude is not good for the server. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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