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Soloability
Posted: 18 Jul 2004 05:41 AM |
Ok, so Vives is not a solo server, fair enough. But, and I would certainly be interested to know the views of others, just about every time I have been on Vives lately, or have looked at the people IG, there has been no more than 3 people on the server. (But I am a GMTer).
Now I've suggested before about more quests and GMT DM involvement but I've come up with an idea and was wondering what people think.
As you may remember Im not a big fan of CNR, much prefering sitting around a campfire talking to myself, than traipsing half way across Vives and back only to fail a disproportionate amount of times either in corrolation to my Statistical chance or any realistic ability. CNR is about as challanging to a PC as watching paint dry, the latter being infinately more interesting, IMHO (but Im not alone).
So here is my idea, CNR, if changed considerably could be the answer to the Solo status of certain hours of Vives.
The problem with CNR is that its just a "collect and hope". You know what to collect and it doesnt take long, with most items, to figure out where to get them. The basis is then to just carry as much as you can to account for the fact that you probably are going to waste most of your material. But of course crafting is not supposed to be easy!!!
Instead of the "collect and hope" why not instead have an ability based system, which has a challenge for the PCs as well as the characters. There of course would still need to be a statistical chance of failure but much much lower than is currently the case.
In place of this you remove from the chat menues the ingredients you need to craft each item. And there is the challenge. Finding out! This could be done a number of ways. Research being one, apprentiships being another or trial and error if you wish.
I would also suggest this could be the basis of a few quests, such as with the Herbalist in Port who wants you to collect X so that she can make Y (giving you a clue). With this challenge ought to come a good deal of XP and this would replace the need for going Hack and Slashing when there is no-one else, or few people around.
I would also recommend that this opportunity be created for class specific Item Creation such as magical items for Mages, Potions of Healing for Clerics, Scrolls etc.
I really do think that this might be a solution (especially to GMTers) for when the server is quite and in any case would make CNR a much more interesting part of Vives. At the moment it seems to me from the people I have spoken with that they either wont do it because of how tedius it is, or simply perserve despite this.
Anyway, just my thoughts. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 18 Jul 2004 10:01 AM |
I really do agree with the class specific items, i think that this would help add depth to peoples characters and give them something to do other then the 'hac & slash'. It would give characters the oppertunity to become master crafters.
IMO i think that you when you reach the top of the ladder as it where for crafting you should be able to make really good item as in amazing armor but then there should be the ability for the mage / cleric to imbune the well crafted armor with magic, perhaps there could be 1 - 3 slots for magical protections. or a total spell level.
It would give people the chance to really make the items they wish to wear.
I hope that the dm's do not think this is a flame as it isnt this is more like a wish list. |
Its easy clinging to your moral high ground when you have everything, try it when you have nothing left.
Cain Angus |
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 18 Jul 2004 11:04 AM |
We're looking into extending in CNR a little at the top end and possibly introducing some new cool stuff to craft (including class specific), we'll keep you updated :P
Cheers
Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 18 Jul 2004 05:27 PM |
Its good to hear that there are being some extensions to the CNR thing which will make item creation a valuable trait. But IMHO there needs to be a total re-think in the way that CNR operates.
Whilst new items will mean that players will be able to produce some really good stuff which is certainly a goal worth pursing, it still wont address the two key aspects of my suggestion.
1) CNR is boring; and
2) Vives needs to have a solo element to it, especially for GMTers.
I really really, would like to CNR made statistically easier (because at the moment its ridiculous) with the chance of success being based on a challenge undertaken by the PC not a random number generator.
That is why I recommended a system where you had to undertake tasks to ascertain how you actually create a certain item, rather than simply be told what you need to collect, go collect it, shove it an a superflous box and click go.
If there were a challenge involved CNR would become interesting, you would have the remaining benefits of the the CNR system and you would solve the problem (or perhaps alleviate the problem) of PCs having little to do at various times.
Put simply, I think CNR needs to go back to scratch, all "recipes" changed so no one knows what they are, and then a challenge introduced in respect of learning these recipes.
This has a number of advantages. 1) Its more realistic in determining a challege 2) It will give us something to do and 3) Is not as boring as currently the case.
Thats not to say there should be no statistical element but far far more weighted towards success than failure. That way you reward good RPing (i.e. apprentiships) and you reward good thinking and problem solving and not simply have a system for the sake of having a system.
The new proposals could easily compensate PCs who have achieved a certain status in anyone area.
I really really do think this would be a way of substantially improving Vives, which (and I do appreciate this is only a certain times) can be a pretty but not very dynamic world.
It would also as an upside probably be the best way of rewarding RP when DMs around. There was once a thread about the fact Vives is a PW Story world in which 90% ish of XP was from action not RPing. This could be a way to re-dress that balance.
As Carlton said, this is by far a flame because the criticisms I have made are of a good system that unfortunately has drawbacks because of the nature of the beast not its design (i.e. the Time Zone problem). This is merely a wishlist from someone who hits that beast all the time and recommending a change that would be a plus always round. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 18 Jul 2004 07:47 PM |
"Let's take a thousand recipes, completely change each one so not a single player knows what they are, make quests that grants hints for people to learn each and every one, and the ones we don't, let's let them figure it out. Then after they spend hours struggling to figure out the recipe for a tallow oil, let's laugh when they fail trying to make one."
Consider a number of things.
(1) This would create SO MUCH WORK, that I imagine alone is a reason not to do this.
(2) The way I imagine this sort of system is already described above. Making the CNR system a blind treasurehunt changes it from being merely tedious, to being tedious and plausibly impossible for a long time.
(3) How would you account for master crafters suddenly forgetting EVERYTHING they knew?
Leave the CNR system the way it is. It's hard enough as it is, I don't want to have to go on a treasure hunt to find out what I need, so I can go on a treasure hunt to get what I need, so I can play a game of skill and THEN be subject to a roll of the dice ANYWAY to see if I can make a +1 AC Cloak. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 18 Jul 2004 11:56 PM |
I have to agree with Rob on this one.
Firstly, alot of work went into the creating the existing recipes to make them intuitive. For example, when creating the alchemy recipe's, I spent a bunch of time finding out about what the various herbs in the CNR system do in an attempt to make the recipe's make sense. To reshuffle these recipes would invalidate that work.
Secondly, we could easily get rid of of the recipe's being shown. Its a functionality included with CNR. However, something like that would only serve to discourage new crafters.
Class specific items would of course not be amiss, and I would love to hear any suggestions for possible recipes. Keep in mind however that there will not be anything more powerful than there currently is available from CNR. It is by careful design that there are no overly powerful items available through crafting. We do not want to encourage solo'ing in any way, and having powerful items available through crafting tends to lead to people spending all of their time crafting instead of roleplaying. |
~Alosynth
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 03:00 AM |
I have to agree with Rob on this one too, like you Akril I spend the majority of my time on the server when very few are about but unlike you do indulge in crafting as a means of passing the time.
Crafting is difficult, especially at lower levels, but like anything else gets easier the more effort you put into it.
I too wouldn't be too happy after the effort I have put in to find out I had to learn it all again.
I wouldn't necessarily agree that it's boring either, it can be tedious and time consuming but to some extent thats why I use it - is it any less boring than lying around dead waiting for help? I've done that too and I know which I prefer.
It also opens up other avenues.
As a result of simply wanting to craft bows Elvalia can now tailor, enchant, tinker and smelt (at varying degrees of proficiency) as well as simply craft in wood.
I wouldn't say that as a result she's any less involved in plots or RP as a result and in fact has ended up involved in quite a lot simply as a result of being involved in these various tasks.
She has also been involved in quests as a result of needing specific ingredients
IMHO changing the system would not only invalidate a lot of work done by builders as Alo says but also destroy a lot of time and effort spent by players who have indulged.
This isn't just said for selfish reasons, I'm not alone in having invested the time.
In some cases, including Elvalia's, the fact that the PC can craft is as much a part of their character as any other stat, it's what she does and part of her make up - I can think of others this applies to just as well.
By all means modify it, add class specific items, but a total rewrite I think would be counter productive. |
Elvalia - Chosen of Aros
Elrith Mellin
Perin - 'Cleric (an' drewid) o' Elbreff' Weddin's an' pies a speciarality
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 03:01 AM |
Agree with both Rob and Alo on this one.
Alo, some of us are not familiar with what can be created under the different CNR methods? Also, with Enchanting under construction still we have no idea of what is allowed or acceptable under that system.
Can you give us a guideline of what properties might be considered an acceptable CNR range in order to get us thinking of some acceptable possibilities?
Thanks.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 03:02 AM |
I've only skim read it but I don't really like the idea of being able to mass produce items of exceptional quality. However, I think there is great potential for RP in the creation of items of exceptional quality that require both crafting skill and some sort of plot, some special material found by the crafter.
Calia's armour forged from start metal is a great example of this. (though I'm not sure it involved actual crafting rolls, or just roleplay) For CNR to be useful in such a way there would have to be actual rolls involved. |
Cantor Matriel - "How much?" |
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 04:03 AM |
I want to clarify one thing, which I thought I had said, but if not then this I do so now. Im not asking for everyone to be returned to the beginning undoing all the work of those that have spent ages crafting stuff. I appreciate how peeved I would be were this to happen for example. Of course those who have advanced should not be reduced to amateurs and should keep the skill the already have.
Now, since I know people dont like long threads, I'll give my idea, and then the arguments for it. If those of you who are proficient enjoy it, keep the recipes as they are, make them anonymous and create a challange for those that dont. The problem is however, to compensate you need to increase the chance of success so the challenge is PC based not character based with a dice roll. That is why I suggested a change (it could be something simple like quantity differences or a mild alteration nothing radical so you hardwork Alo is hardly going to be done).
Rob, apologies, but your attempt at trivialising my idea by making it sound tedius only serves to demonstrate my point, quite nicely in fact.
If, in your mind, not knowing what items you need to craft something, then having to collect it, then having a VERY GOOD chance of succeeding on a dice role is allegedly tedius, then with any logic in the world being TOLD with no RP what you need to find, going to find it and then having a VERY VERY POOR chance of success is most certainly going to be tedius.
I think perhaps you need to distinguish between what is a challenge to your character and what is a challange to your PC. At the moment there is virtually no challenge to a PC which is why CNR is dull.
What is interesting, is that I can see that if you have been partiking in CNR for some time and are able to create interesting items it might just be mildly interesting for you (which ironically applies to those who have the rejected my idea). The interesting part is even each of you accept that in some way it can be tedius. Well, think about newbies and those of us that havent pushed throught the almost unbearble tedium to the otherside of "mildly interesting". If you can accept its sometimes tedius its even worse for those who are new to it or not that proficient.
Im telling you quite sincerely, there is no challenge to the PC and those who are rejecting my idea seem to be doing so because they want to preserve the status quo because it suits them. My answer to that is fine, Im not trying to take that away from you, and further more I think you are valid in preserving your positions as master craftsman, but that is no answer to a proposal that solves both the tedium of CNR and the solo problem of Vives. In fact, there as I have suggested, is a way of making this a one-size-fits all policy.
Finally, I do not agree that the work load makes this untenable. First, if amending the recipes is that complicated simply anonymise them and then build in the quests and possible research books incrimentally. No one said this has to happen over night.
I am going to really stick my neck out here and I do so constructively, but this is a flame Im afraid. There is too much preservation of the status quo when it comes to the ethos of Vives and it is clear to me that this is why Vives loses players. I certainly know when I started here there where always a good handful of people on the server. Ive have seen post after post suggesting very good proposals each shot down by those who want to keep things the way they are. Whilst I know you cant please everyone all the time, not all suggestions are mutually exclusive to the way things are, and this is one of them.
If you like CNR fine, keep at it, my idea doesnt detract from that. But the current CNR does stop others. I hope you can see that.
If anything is going to discourage CNR Alo, my apologies but it is how infinately dull it is. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 04:14 AM |
In my point of view and stated above in other posts....... Making CNR "easier" can and most likely will result in mass crafting of items, flooding the server with them and a large gold supply.
However, I do also see that perhaps at present it is not the most exciting part of Vives, and the end results do not necessarily justiy the hard work a player might put into it. Fact is, at p[resent, you're more likely to find something better than the best things you can create.
So what I was proposing is to leave the existing system "as is" and make additions, particularly surrounding the more unique aspects/items. We can utilise harder to find materials to work with, or perhaps they might only be rewarded on a Quest completion (The hilt of an ancient longsword, a plant or orchid that was thought extinct etc....), this can then be used in conjunction with others (mayhaps in a variety of ways) BUT the materials will only be one-shot rewards (maybe 2 or 3 more in some cases), this will then pervent everyone in the server running about in the same armour, wielding the same sword etc etc etc.....
Now this to me would be much more exciting, and worth crafting for :D
Cheers
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 04:21 AM |
Im just going to hit off a one line point that Im trying to make which seems to be getting lost perhaps in the length of my posts. I dont want CNR to be made easier, I want it to be hard.
But I want the challange PC based not character based. That will make CNR intersting.
Thats really all im "wishing" for. My proposals were merely suggestions on how to achieve this.
I do however, think that your suggestions Ara will help to some extent in this regard and I really hope you go ahead with them. But I still think CNR can be changed to become a really really amazing part of Vives rather than a best alternative when there is nothing else to do. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 04:26 AM |
I'd like to add also, that I think Vives should also be suitable for Single Players as well as groups, I'm making more and extended static Quests in a bid to aid this, plus finishing some off that have been erm..... "neglected"... some of these shall be CNR related, in a similar vein as the Ellea Quest currently in game :)
Cheers
- Ara
EDIT: I also propose that for the more unique craftable items I mentioned above that there needs to be a recipe "found" via an NPC, or perhaps an Ancient Tome with the secrets..... then the item won't just "appear", again, hopefully this would perhaps be more exciting/interesting. |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 04:44 AM |
Not that I'm nitpicking or anything...
But doesn't the concept of making soloing more feesible immediately reduce the server to a Progress Quest, completely circumventing the concept of Role-Play?
And, Akril. Pardon me yet again, but I have no overwhelming interest (nor do I think anybody but you does) in going on a QUEST to find out what makes a ream of cloth.
The crafts that are represented are not HIDDEN, SECRET KNOWLEDGE. All things considered, anybody going to Midor Library should able to find all the information he could ever want, so a table telling you everything you need to weave a ream of cloth or a copper short sword is not overwhelmingly out of place.
I support this concept. MAYBE. MAYBE for the rarer crafts. Enchanting, Alchemy. But otherwise, tailoring, smithing, smelting, none of these are new concepts. We don't need to send new people stumbling off blind looking for things. A lot of people have trouble figuring out the dang system the way it is, and that's something I will NEVER understand.
Another thing I'd like to bring up, I just plain don't want to be pestered. I don't want somebody sending me a tell every five minutes asking me "o man how do i make leather armor??" because you KNOW that's what's gonna happen. Take away the easy-to-read step-by-step guide and all you're going to do is inspire more metagaming and people are going to get penalized, people are going to get fed up, and they're going to LEAVE. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 04:50 AM |
To make it clear I was only talking about "hidden" recipes at the higher end and the more unique items.....
Also for me Vives and NWN and -even- D&D is ALL about partying up and roleplaying in a group, including fighting.
However I can also appreciate that in this instance there needs to be more for the single adventurer to do in "off-peak" times, as it is not always as easy to group up. Now this does not mean making anything "Easier" or diminshing Roleplay, but rather simply more choice, this involves more Quests amongst other things (these could of course always be completed by a group too).
Cheers
- Ara. |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 04:51 AM |
Fact is, at p[resent, you're more likely to find something better than the best things you can create.
Why not decrease the chance of finding really powerful items then so that they would be truly rare. And instead make the "average good" items come from crafting... that should bring some interest into crafting... |
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 04:53 AM |
Working on it Mr.Pink, we're making changes to the treasure tables most updates, and making more area-specific ones. Note: this will not change the type of items found, or necessarily the power, but rather where these are located (more logical as to both) and also the frequency.
Cheers :D
Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 05:05 AM |
I think I've had a bit of an epiphany here.
This concept could concievably be worked into something much more feasible.
For one thing, there's no point to changing the recipes. If you leave the recipes alone, then accomplished and practiced craftsmen won't have any troubles I think. I personally have all my recipes either memorized or written down. But new people won't.
I think that some recipes should be very easily found. Example, Elbert Oinstoin should be able to give you a convo-driven tutorial about how to make glass, and blow it into a flask, and then suggest that you can blow glass into all sorts of things, and encourage you to use your imagination.
Then I think that some of the little harder ones, say, leather armour, for instance, could be researched.
Then some of the more difficult ones, like, for instance, a healing potion, might be accessible through a simple quest. Go fetch me this and this, and when you bring it to him, he says "Splendid! I already have this and this, so with these I can make a new batch of healing potions!" People should have to use basic context clues to get these recipes.
Then maybe the hard ones might take a harder quest. Or even more of the same, to get very distant or rare items. Use your judgment on this one. Greatly unbalancing recipes, such as MAGIC BAGS, might only be accessible through a number of quests!
I fully support these quests, dozens, hundreds if necessary, with plenty of combat quests and non-combat quests. But bare in mind that quests like these, you can't award 500 experience apiece for. Especially if afterward, they're gonna go cratt and get experience and money for that, too. Aim for like, 25, 50 experience for these quests. More or less based on how many you actually plan on doing.
As I said before, the ultimate problem here is that utilizing this system (however brilliant) uses a TON of manpower. I'd like to see you write all this stuff, or even a team of 20 yous, in any realistic sort of time. Besides, the whole situation would just become bunk when people just say "Screw doing an hour quest, I'm just gonna ask somebody who KNOWS!" It sets up for a lot of work, and a lot of disappointment.
Oh, and do away with that whole test of skill thing. This is D&D. We roll the dice here. I don't even know how you'd do a test of skill. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Soloability
Posted: 19 Jul 2004 06:46 AM |
OK, Rob this is rare occasion, but we are in agreement. In fact, what you have suggested is almost exactly what I suggested. I think things got skewed because I suggested changing the recipes. That was my error and to solve a problem I thought of in my mind and one which isnt that great.
What you have just said is exactly what I would like to see. You actually learning how to craft through RP like that for example. But you will need to therefore make the lesser items easier to create percentage wise.
That is exactly what I was refering to, but I was suggesting the principle not the practical at the outset.
Anyway, glad we agree. Lets go for a pint. |
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
Akril
Quinellieth. 20th Circle of the Order of the Ring |
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