|
Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 02:48 PM |
As you can all see this is not in the flames section, so do not consider this a flame. However it is a point of critique.
I just read about the PAJWT dragon killing tour. Personally I think that this is a very bad thing. Why?
I was always under the impression that dragons were nearly immortal beings, personifactions of power, cunning and strength. They are beings to be feared as much as demon princes or the gods themselves. Dens once said in irc he wished that dragons could only be taken down by very high level characters (characters not on vives, barring CPCs and DM avatars) and/or with extreme good tactics.
As Xaranthir I have specifically avoided dragons. Yeah one maximised missile storm and I can kill one. So why doesn't he go do that? Because in character he thinks them overly powerful. Yeah we killed Frezt once before, in a DM quest (and apparently it wasn't even a dragon then... but that's beside the point).
Going on a dragon killing tour makes it sound like going out on a sewer cleaning trip. It sounds cheap IMHO. No this is not a PAJWT bashing post, I'm merely asking everyone to think about the implications this will have. What will become next on the agenda then? Lets take down a god?
Frankly, I am seriously annoyed by this kind of monster hunting. It will ruin a lot of roleplay for many people. I hope you will all consider the consequences in game (this is a persistent world people, not your run of the mill hack 'n slash server) and will reconsider this.
My 2 cents... |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
|
  |
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 03:13 PM |
| The problem isnt that they are going Dragon Bashing.. the problem is that they can. If we want Dragons to be epic in power.. then they have to have the ability to back up the rep. Otherwise, this is the natural consequence. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 03:20 PM |
No I do not agree.
I can also go dragon hunting. Heck I can do it on my own. Yes, one maximised IGMS, send in a summon... piece of cake.
It is not because you -can- that you -should-!
This is a game mechanism. You can also roleplay the fact that they're near invulnerable.
Again all imho |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 03:26 PM |
| Yes. You can roleplay that they are near invulnerable, but the fact is, they arent... not as implemented anyway. If they are weak, the characters will treat them that way. If they command respect, they will get it. None of my characters would even consider going after a dragon, because common sense tells you somthing that big and magical, that is practically immortal, is not a good thing to go up against. On the other hand, if for some reason I had to face one, and it fought like a pussycat, my character is going to lose all respect for them. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 03:39 PM |
| As a follow up.. I for one would like to see all Dragons in Vives of Adult or older being named. Each having its own quirks, abilities amd suprises. But all being very dangerous, and not subject to dying from a spell or 2, but as Phoenix says, needing a very powerful group of adventurers to even have a shot at defeating it. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 03:43 PM |
To an extent, you have a point, but only to an extent.
At a time Dragons -were- next to impossible to kill. This was a time when the average character level was roughly 5 or 6 shy of what it is now. a time when level 20 was unheard of and 14 was considered legendary.
The problem comes (one of) when more areas, quests and encounters are added, the overall pool of XP grows proportionally. what -should- happen, is the existing sources be toned down to keep everything relative, but that's not the case. this isnt any one persons fault, its simply a lot of work that's required.
The other thing to keep in mind is the terrible AI. it's far too easy to outsmart. by the time it buffs itself via spells, a group of 8 characters have easily chewed through well over half its life. Is -that- how you picture an dragon? For a being with an almost otherwordly intelect, it is as good as dead should it have to navigate around a stack of barrels.
The fear, awe , and majesty a dragon has ingrained into our minds is a mental thing, built up by childhood strories and chilling tales. In other words, an aspect that should be -role played- by characters, not taken advantage of because the game mechanics dont live up to the reputation. To have a dragon killing bonanza more or less ignores all of this.
Were this an action server, i would see no problem in this, but it's not. On a server that stresses role play above all else, it should be -everyones- responsibilty to uphold the immersive atmoshpere and make this place believeable, vivid. This is vives. |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 03:47 PM |
First of all the dragons are in mostly off the path areas. If you do encounter one on the road, it will not fight like a pussycat. If it does, the DM crashed out.
You bring up a good point: common sense. Where in literature have you ever read about the band of heroes going after every dragon in the world? They are the epithome of monsterhood.
To say they are weak because of an in game mechanic (the AI is awful) is to hide behind that mechanic. No single player should be able to beat a dragon. And yes that includes me. The AI is crap? Well then how about boosting the dragons to such fearsome monsters that even with the worst AI in the world they'd still give you a beating you'd never forget? Will that make for better roleplay then?
Going to hunt every dragon in vives is a joke to me. It shouldn't be able to be done.
Again you say "You can roleplay that they are near invulnerable, but the fact is, they arent... not as implemented anyway."
I would like to ask you all to go look up the word ROLEPLAY. It is not about game mechanics, it is not about dice, it is not about rules, it is not about levels.
EDIT: SpaciousQ wrote: "The fear, awe , and majesty a dragon has ingrained into our minds is a mental thing, built up by childhood strories and chilling tales. In other words, an aspect that should be -role played- by characters, not taken advantage of because the game mechanics dont live up to the reputation."
Yes that is what roleplay is about. Thank you for that. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 03:48 PM |
If the AI is a problem, perhaps the buff spells should be removed, and just give the dragon the effects. That will by-pass that one issue. As far as poor pathing.. i guess their lairs would have to be pretty spartan then.
If the consensus is to role play the power of the dragon, instead of have it quantifiable in game, then we need to get that message out, which I suppose is what Phoenix was doing with his original post. I would still prefer that the Dragons have the ability to back up their reputations. |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 03:53 PM |
Here is another alternative.. Dont have dragons in game except when in DM control. If you go to a Dragons lair at other times.. the dragon is out (and of course so is his hoard).
EDIT: hmm, if DMs can track who loots items... perhaps the hoard can be there even when the dragon isnt. Anyone stupid enough to take so much as 1 GP from a dragon hoard can expect a very PO'd (DM controlled) Dragon to come in search of them (by scent, magical scrying, or purely RP means) to take that treasue back, and meet out a little punishment. Yeah.. that sounds like fun! |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 04:09 PM |
Dragons don't really take their horde "with them" when they leave.
Edit - Not to mention that they don't really leave their caves very often except to go and horde MORE swag.
Perhaps an alternative would be to keep huge hordes of swag in dragon lairs behind key-specific doors that disappear on use, have persistant invincible dragons that are only killable when in DM control, and have some format involved in going "dragon slaying" where a player first informs a DM of his intent. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 04:10 PM |
| Agreed.. hence my edit |
Three sisters, born of the Sea
A sad fate t'was in store for thee
Oh Vaisha, Vahlah and Vallaesha |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 05:22 PM |
Completely off topic, but I dont think the items in a dragon horde could be considered SWAG. SWAG is an accronym for Stuff We All Get. In real life, this applies to things like T-shirts and tacky pen holders or what not with company logo's that are given away as promotion. Like my dresser drawer full of Intel T-shirts for example. I dont think that applies to the stuff dragons get.  |
~Alosynth
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 05:37 PM |
| ... |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 05:45 PM |
stop whining
I wouldn't call it whining so much as constructive feedback on dragons.
Oh, and in my opinion, dragon hunting is in line with Pickston's and Jessup's reputation for sending poor, underprepeared, and probably borderline insane people happily into the jaws of certain death (and making a profit while they're at it)
Isn't Capitalism great?
Mykal |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 05:46 PM |
I used to play on an action server where the 'Big Boss' was a dragon of immense power, it required an exceptionally well balanced party of at least 5 to take her down and even then the battle lasted at least 40mins real time. (And I must point out this was with 'uber' gear being readily available). My point is that dragons can be made to be the awe inspiring creature they should be, even given the naff AI limitations.
Heres an idea, why not have a competition where the members of this fine community come up with their ideal of how a dragon should be and the Devs/DMs can judge them and use the winners to replace some of the current ones. It would certainly spice things up a bit >:-) and could pave the way for some truely epic battles which would have the bards singing about for years to come... |
"The issue isn't wether you're paranoid, its wether you're paranoid enough..."
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 05:51 PM |
first of all: Aanir we missed you buddy where the heck are you!?!?!
secondly: I have to agree whole-heartedly with X. Dragons should be reveared, and very very dangerous, Personally, I think all dragosn should be dm'd... but you have to have somethig in the way of people in certain areas, and so I guess you have to keep the dragons in the world, mostly for smart players to RUN from.
thridly: since they should be left in game, Im all for making them more powerful in leiu of AI which is hopeless. (my two cents)
fourthly: come on Pick, it will be fun for a moment, then when youve done it you will realize that it was anticlimactic and the mystery will be gone. OR they will get DM'd and the whole party will die and get eaten. Personally, Sinjin will be working on his new house in Icy Vale. |
Humbly Submitted,
Sinjin Kane |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 29 Mar 2004 05:56 PM |
P Diddys post is understandable. I agree...dragons should not be killed of as if they were goblins. In respect to PAJWT we have not led many excursions to meet those creatures and in my time on the server as well as with PAJWT ive seen a total of four dragons fall...and about 500 of my friends fall. Somehow Pick and Jess survived muahahahahaha. In seriousness though i agree completely with Klench. The times the dragons did die...it was with a greatly balanced and prepared party...which is something im sure this upcoming tour wont be. For the most part tours like these do attract many....many players that have never ventured into those caves containing dragons...PAJWT was made because there were too many areas that we could not go into without dying. This still is the case. Make no mistake many still die on our tours....and many will. Its not as easy as going in there and killing the dragon...im sure we will take our share of casualties. In closing i see your point P Diddy.... perhaps we can work together on this with the DMs to make this more enjoyable for all.
thanks
+2 Greataxe - 784 GP
Cobalt Executioners Helm - 480 GP
Being led to your death by a farting halfling and an incoherent half-orc - Priceless
((Apologies to Coruva)) |
ONWARD AND UPWARD! |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 30 Mar 2004 11:47 AM |
Just a thought, but if you think the AI contributes to how poor a dragon fights, have any of you looked into integrating this into Vives?
http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/scripts/data/1052004825356.shtml |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 30 Mar 2004 12:15 PM |
| Havn't looked at that one, but we have experimented with Jaspeer's AI. While it is too process intensive to apply to your run of the mill beasties, it might make sense to look at using it on beasties like dragons etc. I believe there is one particular beast, a largish one with magical prowess, that many of you may have run into that uses this system. |
~Alosynth
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 30 Mar 2004 07:26 PM |
SNIP!
Frankly, I am seriously annoyed by this kind of monster hunting. It will ruin a lot of roleplay for many people. I hope you will all consider the consequences in game (this is a persistent world people, not your run of the mill hack 'n slash server) and will reconsider this.
SNIP!
How can you even imply that the tours ruin role-play and are nothing more than "your run of the mill hack 'n slash"??
Some of the greatest RP moments I've had on this server has been on one of these tours! To simply call them hack 'n slash is a discredit to all those fine RPers who have gone on said tours!
I am deeply offended by your implications. |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 30 Mar 2004 07:47 PM |
Ok...Dragons are "easy" to beat because of mechanics. Ok, it's true (let's say I believe you, because I've never seen a dragon IC except Frezt in the quest Phoenix mentionned)
Like others have said (I am lazy and I don't want to read all the posts again *whistles innocently*) Roleplay is nothing about if you can or not kill things. It's about a story... Dragons are impossible (nearly impossible, because there won't be any dragon slayers if they were impossible hihihi) to kill. Period! Would you go to a certain death smiling, I don't think so ;)
And if it doesn't work, I say give the dragons an infinity of hp. Now we'll see a dragon that people will be scared of... or angry at :) |
Frodo : What are we holding on to, Sam?
Sam : That there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.
-The Two Towers |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 30 Mar 2004 09:35 PM |
| Just one thing, most dragons I saw, I also saw the nurse hand in the end...And the ones with me the same... Like someone said for 500 PCs that fall, 5 dragons die, so I dont think they are easy, maybe for you they are. And we are in a world of heroes and magic, for the comun man Im sure that beast would scare him, and would eat him lol, though here I think having dragon slayers is normal...And again they arent that easy....Gene lvl16, Arasus lvl 15 or 16, Jess lvl 18, Neek lvl16 and Pickston lvl 16 had to face one once and we alsmot all died in there....So I dont see how you think they are easy... |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 30 Mar 2004 09:50 PM |
Just a thought, but if you think the AI contributes to how poor a dragon fights, have any of you looked into integrating this into Vives?
http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/scripts/data/1052004825356.shtml
I've heard this doesn't work very well on PWs with player bases that might exceed 10-15 people. |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 31 Mar 2004 05:10 AM |
How can you even imply that the tours ruin role-play and are nothing more than "your run of the mill hack 'n slash"??
Some of the greatest RP moments I've had on this server has been on one of these tours! To simply call them hack 'n slash is a discredit to all those fine RPers who have gone on said tours!
I am deeply offended by your implications.
I don't think Phoenix did in any way suggest that the tours are bad roleplaying. Just that a dragon bashing tour would be bad for roleplay (I don't even think he meant it was bad roleplay in itself). There is a big difference between the two in my opion. And frankly I agree with him. An group routing Vives of Dragons would have big implications on RP. What would we fear from then on?
Phoenix explicitly mentioned he did not mean this as PAJWT bashing, please don't put words in his mouth. So the discussion about wether something should be done about the strength of dragons can continue. |
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Dragon bashing
Posted: 31 Mar 2004 06:16 AM |
Some interesting points in this thread.
Whereas the actual tour might offer interesting and excellent roleplay, the actual proposed purpose in this case generated the disapproving voices.
A conflict of an IC concept (dragons) VS flawed Game mechanics (easy to kill once you 'learn the trick'). I agree with that if dragons were supposed to be that easy to kill they would not contribute much to the server, other then being cannon fodder. This is not an idea vives would support with her emphasis on Roleplay.
In this case the emphasis on Roleplay is expecting players to overcome flaws in the game mechanics through means of their imagination. Or as someone else said once: Just because you know you can OOCly does not mean you should do it ICly.
Again that is not to say there is no Rp /during/ these tours. The issue here /seems/ people not feeling to happy about the proposed outcome, as if it means absolutely nothing to go kill all the dragons on the server. Which is their concern, it meaning nothing, and thus the act itself becoming meaningless in terms of Roleplay.
Cheers,
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
|
|
|