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The XP Catch-22
Posted: 07 Mar 2004 10:49 PM |
In the past few days I've had a net xp gain of 0. I've died about 5 times, wiping out all the work I've done. What's happened as a result is that I've depleted the combat xp I get from killing the monsters I should be killing, so I'm in a position where I'm pretty much fighting for less than 10xp at a time. Usually the things that give me 10xp (at this point) can kill me pretty easily unless things go well.
Anyways, I was wondering if there was some way out of this catch-22. Maybe rolling back the kill counter or something.... Or maybe it's inteneded to be that way, but it's very frustrating. |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 07 Mar 2004 11:37 PM |
Yes, that sucks. It is a hard lesson to learn.
Take a look at the dirtnap league and see that you are not alone in experiencing this.
As much as the experience system has bothered me when I originally started; especially on nights when I would have a net XP loss, I have grown to see the wisdom in it.
Since I don't know your class or current level, I can only give you general advice
1/ Party up dude! - Travelling in a group of 2 to 4 individuals vastly increases your survival chances, while still earning XP. There are many charactes around who are willing to help, or join with you. All you need to do is ask in game. This is the single most important piece of advice you will hear. Late on, you will reach a point where you can do things yourself, but this advice always applies regardless of your level.
2/ Exploration XP - exploration XP will provide the biggest boost to your characters. With the initial starter quests and exploration XP, you should be able to make it to 4th level without doing too much fighting.
3/ Seek a mentor - Some character might not party with you, but they will provide some advice on where to go and what to do.
4/ Change your combat tactics - Sorry - no specifics here as I do not know what you were doing and what you are capable of.
5/ Find the more appropriate areas to explore for your level - some monsters should not be tackled until you are higher level so just don't do it.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 08 Mar 2004 01:00 AM |
You can also find non-combat quests, If you are not a total wussy char like a fighter with no STR or a Dwarf with no beard.
With a passion, Sion
Ps: If I were you I would disregard all I said after Look For Quests!
Pps: Who makes a dwarf with no beard? That's what I want to know! |
When in doubt, mumble. When in trouble, delegate. |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 08 Mar 2004 12:13 PM |
Pps: Who makes a dwarf with no beard? That's what I want to know!
The same people that made gnomes look like Half-Gorillas. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 08 Mar 2004 01:06 PM |
| Brumni the Beardless, at your service.. |
"ehehehehe,.."
Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo. |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 08 Mar 2004 01:15 PM |
I personally feel that combat xp drops off far too quickly. A particular mob bottoms out after providing maybe 1/8th-1/6th the xp needed for a level. In many cases it becomes difficult if not impossible to find a 'replacement'.
I cannot comment on the other types of xp since I only play my fighter on Vives and I do not wish to play alts at this time.
:) |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 08 Mar 2004 03:27 PM |
| I have to agree, I never go out to level eny more with my barbarian character. I find it has very little point when I compare the XP I gain to that which I could loose. Instead, I tend to just mill around, join parties or just talk to people. It's the only way I've found to get any sort of progression into my character as going out and killing stuff is either pointless (less than 10XP per creature) or too dangerous (get killed). |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 12:08 AM |
Well I've pretty much absorbed a lot of the exploration xp that's appropriate without going into really dangerous places, and that's all been squandered by my recent string of deaths. Also gone is the xp from DM quests too, and all my money... I also did 3 of the solo quests for xp and all that's gone too. A very frustrating few days to say the least, probably about 10-12 hours work for a net gain of 0 xp, a loss of about 10,000 in gold, and the depletion of a lot of the potential xp out there from exploration, combat, and quests...
I'm playing a cleric, so I only get 35% combat xp anyways, and that drops off rather quickly.
I like to party, and I usually do that, but sometimes when it's late there's only a handful of people on, and not necessarily anyone my level. That's when I go exploring, only to get killed. One of my deaths, that wiped out all my xp from that level, happened when I was invisible but a giant saw through it (bug), and killed me before I could cast another (lag). Another was a trap, and a few others were from bad luck with several baddies getting critical hits...
Anyways, I'm just bitching cause I'm frustrated... I like to do that.... |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 09:33 AM |
This is one of the flaws of the 'diminishing-returns' xp system used here at Vives.
Mobs, areas, doors, taps and spells all become limited commodities. It is possible for someone to have a string of bad luck (as chile has) and essentially 'use-up' all the xp available to him or her for that level.
I understand why they use this system. The folks at Vives are trying something new in an attempt to disuade people from powerleveling. Bravo on the different approach rather than the jackass policies of worlds like Arabel where the DM's just kill you outright if they feel you are 'farming' 'metagaming' or 'powergaming', or some such other nebulous term they can hide behind while they enjoy their powertrip.
The good news is that the folks here will listen to new ideas. I have discussed topics with DM's and/or devs on a few occasions. They are very open-minded, willing to listen and VERY player-friendly. It is why I play here.
The xp system may not change, but they will discuss it I am sure. Maybe a DM can help you get out of your xp hole Chile? |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 11:34 AM |
I imagine you guys are starting to come down the other side of the bell curve now. As I understand it xp starts to become harder to acquire in the same sort of quantities you may be used to at lower levels. This usually occurs as you start to approach/attain levels in double figures (depending on how much xp you have lost due to respawns I suppose).
It is not very likely that a DM will note a player being stuck on a particular level and give them a nice fat wedge of xp. If they see you engaging in some RP or your taking part in a DM quest then the odds are alot more favourable of getting an xp reward.
There are some people playing on Vives who have well over 300 hours logged on the server and are between levels 10 and 14. It can take time to level on Vives, but if you follow pdwalker's advice you should find your xp gains more satisfactory. |
Eerel Swiftfoot
Self proclaimed fasterest little person in da land
Eerel's Story:
http://vives.dyndns.org/vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=49386 |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 11:51 AM |
| I highly recommend going after DM event and RP XP. Not too long ago I had a "bad level" as you describe it, and that is how I was able to put it behind me (and I had a lot of fun in the process). If you are getting killed solo then dont solo.. it will only make the situation worse. Another thing you could try is crafting. I understand it gives XP, though i havent tried it yet (cant seem to find all the ingredients). |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 01:00 PM |
If you are getting killed solo then dont solo.. it will only make the situation worse. .
Nothing personal but that is not a very ellegant solution. Grouping is not always an option nor should it be mandatory for advancement. I am not proposing that the game should not be challenging, in fact I find it very unfulfilling if it is too easy as many servers are.
What I am saying is that there are some facts when it comes to persistent MMP gaming (yes Vives isn't that massive but the ideals do apply here):
1) We have a disparate playerbase. This means folks play at different times.
2) Not everyone can commit to the 2-4 hours needed to make a group work. Don't kid yourself into thinking a group can really get something done in less time. I have been playing these games since the early 90's and if there is one truth to groups...they take time.
3) Sometimes it is just nice to solo. Players should be allowed to choose how they want to play.
4) I have gotten 650 DM experience since I joined and ZERO RP xp. I have done some roleplay though admitedly not as much as others. I don't think you can count on either of these as reliable sources of xp.
5) Players have real-life issues and real-life concerns. This means that people may need to logout without notice. I personally hate to do this to a group so if I am in doubt I simply do not group. That way I do not have to worry about leaving someone in the lurch as it were.
I have never and will never understand why so many servers are blatantly against the solo player. There are many examples in fantasy fiction of the solo'er (Aragorn, Drizzt, Raistlin) etc... etc... Yes, these characters grouped as well.
I find the statement, "You need to group" to be an indication of a flaw in the system. If only one playstyle will succeed I think you do a great disservice to those of us who simply cannot or willnot always group. It just isn't very friendly policy IMHO. |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 02:08 PM |
| It may not be friendly, but it is certainly what is promoted in Vives. Solo adventuring, I was told when I first came here, is an anti-social activity which destroys the ambience of Vives. As it happens, I persisted, and I now play both ways depending upon what is available. It took a -lot- of hours, however. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 02:31 PM |
I think solo play is (and should be) possible. It is simply a slower way of advancing, because its harder. Sounds too obvious, I know. It is possible though (I don't know how would work if you *never* travelled with anyone...) One just needs to be exceedingly careful and realize that they will not level as fast as others.
Pointing to the solo adventurers who were mentioned (Aragorn, Drizzt etc.)...I'm no expert, but I thought Drizzt never wanted to be alone? He was shunned bc of his heritage, no? Well, Drizzt should have come to vives, where 90% of the players don't care what race you are as long as you fight the good fight.
:) |
-Narenia
Main PC: Dina Islme |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 02:41 PM |
Vives is not designed for solo play at all. We did not design it as a standard persistant world, or even MMP, its not something we've ever aimed for. It was designed from the get go as an environment for Roleplay, period.
Granted, you won't always be able to find someone to roleplay with, however making solo adventuring easier will never be a priority as it only leads to people leveling until they 'get to a level where they can begin to roleplay'. Past the first three of four levels, it is increasingly harder to gain levels. The average level of characters right now is creeping towards level 8, and mostly that is after at least 100 hours ingame, if not more.
The drying up of the XP pool, the high cost of death, all is by design. |
~Alosynth
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 03:12 PM |
I highly recommend going after DM event and RP XP. Not too long ago I had a "bad level" as you describe it, and that is how I was able to put it behind me (and I had a lot of fun in the process). If you are getting killed solo then dont solo.. it will only make the situation worse. Another thing you could try is crafting. I understand it gives XP, though i havent tried it yet (cant seem to find all the ingredients).
IS this true? Does crafting still give xp? Callia spent quite a bit of time crafting gems and while her gem crafting ability increased I saw no evidence of xp award.
Just curious. |
Rutger_13
---------------------------------------
Not all who wander are lost |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 03:40 PM |
Vives is not designed for solo play at all. . .
Nonetheless, it is possible to do if, for some reason, you roleplay a charachter who travels alone. Its just sloooooow, in terms of levelling, and, in the end, there are still places you cannot go alone.
But, if you really wanted to be alone all the time (on a roleplayer server, i'm not sure i would understand that motive) its possible.
I'm glad there are no design plans for solo'ers, because it makes solo adventuring harder and rarer. On the other hand, I always enjoy meeting the solo adventurer, because there is usually a good story behind it, and I would be sad if my world had none. |
-Narenia
Main PC: Dina Islme |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 05:32 PM |
The drying up of the XP pool, the high cost of death, all is by design.
Interesting. So, since this is a 'roleplaying' world then why even bother with levels? Your post hints that you do not think that we the players should be concerned with xp, levels nor any consideration other than roleplaying. Let's all just stand around and use emotes for combat?
I do not think that is your overall idea, I use the extreme analogy to make a point: if xp does matter, if levels do matter then the sytem as a whole needs to be fun and balanced for all. If this is not a pure roleplay server (which I contend it most certainly is not since you use game mechanics and the like) then these considerations need attention.
Now, I am GLAD this is not a PURE roleplay server. I for one find that type of gameplay uninteresting. I enjoy the mechanics of the 3rd edition D&D system. I also enjoy roleplaying. I also enjoy questing, and monster hunting, and exploration.
I interpreted Vives to be a more 'moderate' roleplay server. A server where roleplay was one important asepct of the game, AS A WHOLE. Not this mypoic view of NeverWinterNights that so many of these RP-Snob servers adhere to. I refuse to play on a server where players are killed by DM's simply for hunting an area more than once.
I am not contending that you pander to the solo'ist. In fact I have found that, for the most part, I can solo when I want to. What I am asking is this: does the xp diminish to quickly per mob killed (I think so); also, can you via your diminishing xp rate, death penalty and over-reliance on DM-awarded rp-xp place a player into a xp 'Black Hole'? If the answer to either of these is yes (on your end) then in is incumbent upon you, the dev team, to re-examine the system.
It is all about fun isn't it? |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 05:41 PM |
<quote><color="#336699">
. . .I refuse to play on a server where players are killed by DM's simply for hunting an area more than once. . .
Did this happen to you on vives, or are you referring to another server? |
-Narenia
Main PC: Dina Islme |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 06:57 PM |
I highly recommend going after DM event and RP XP. Not too long ago I had a "bad level" as you describe it, and that is how I was able to put it behind me (and I had a lot of fun in the process). If you are getting killed solo then dont solo.. it will only make the situation worse. Another thing you could try is crafting. I understand it gives XP, though i havent tried it yet (cant seem to find all the ingredients).
IS this true? Does crafting still give xp? Callia spent quite a bit of time crafting gems and while her gem crafting ability increased I saw no evidence of xp award.
Just curious.
There is a small percentage of the crafting XP which shows up as adventure XP. Perhaps 20%. I did not program that code, so I can't say for certain. But if the crafting XP per item crafted is only 2, then there is 0 adventure XP even if you craft 20 at once. The crafting XP drops as the skill goes up relative to the crafting operation, and for 100% efficiency there is zero reward on either scale except for the item produced.
Now, I say this as someone who hasn't done any crafting since last weekend. For all I know it's zero adventure for everything now. It hardly matters, since it is so much quicker to kill something for XP than it is to gather the dozens of items required to obtain the same XP through crafting. You can, if you are patient, make up a "black hole" loss through crafting (or you could) but no one is going to shoot up to Epic overnight by making items. |
Dieties preserve us from the evil chaotics named Lag, Crash, and Server Reset.
PCs: Loli Dankirk (Ftr 18/Brd 8.5 @ 1777 hrs) left Vives for Origins; Gnora Gnombody (Sor 5 @ 54 hrs) and Amanda Stark (Wiz 3 @ ~10 hrs) left Vives for Feline Providence. |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 06:58 PM |
Sorry about that Narenia...that happened on another server to another player. I quit that server after hearing of the event. I do not think that kind of thing would EVER happen on this server. The DM's and Devs are just not that kind of folks, hence my presence here. :)
I appologize for the confusing reference. |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 07:02 PM |
Roleplaying does not mean no levels. That would be a social server. Vives is a heavy roleplay server, as stated on our nwvault gameworld page, and roleplay is the most important aspect here.
Part of roleplaying is adventure and questing, and they would mean nothing without advancement of characters. However, designing Vives, we did make the choice that our world would focus on roleplay over anything else. We also decided HCR was too much for our needs, but instead went our own route with diminishing XP and other moderate rule changes.
XP does diminish quickly per mob killed, and you can end up in a black hole. That is how we designed the XP system, knowing full well that if you die to often, you'll get to a point where it will be very hard to advance.
Dm's will not kill you for 'hunting' the same place, however, a DM is just as likely as to apply an XP penalty for out of character/meta type actions as they are to award XP for exceptional roleplay when they see it.
In response to the crafting XP question.. Yes there are small amounts of adventure xp for crafting, however they are very minimal. Your class crafting modifier is taken into account as well. The adventure XP is a percentage of the crafting XP and, as slink said, does not round up to 1 if it is a fraction of 1, nor do the fractions add. So if the fraction worked out to 0.9, and you did three items at one shot you wouldn't get 2.7 rounded down to two, you'ld get 3x (.9 rounded down to 0) |
~Alosynth
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 07:26 PM |
Let's quote the Vives PHB some.
In here you can expect quality single-player plots and stories, ongoing character development, as well as multiplayer, adventure-group based DM-episodes, of which the latter is the focus.
I interpret this to mean that I, as a player, have the opportunity to enjoy BOTH solo and group playstyle.
Spanning over the entire land and involving over 100 unique NPCs, these caters for characters of various levels, provides an estimated 50 hours of single-player adventure, and also promises to provide a rich background for character development (as most are quite open-ended).
Again, I read more information that leads me to think that solo play is acceptable and even supported (though less than group play, which is as it should be).
Vives have also been designed from Day 1 to make it fun and enjoyable for the casual player
Casual gamer...someone who logs in for a few minutes to play and then must go. NOT someone who stays logged in all day 8+ hours a day 7 days a week and has time to form all the groups he wants and get's plenty of DM attention because he or she is always on.
The world described in this PHB document is a bit different from the one you are presenting Alosynth. |
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 08:56 PM |
*shrugs* None of those quotes are contrary to what I stated. Nor terribly germain to how XP works, or the improtance of Roleplay in Vives.
Solo play is possible, no one has ever said otherwise, but dont expect large xp rewards for it. And if your not careful, you can end up dying quite often. |
~Alosynth
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Re: The XP Catch-22
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 10:57 PM |
Solo play is possible, no one has ever said otherwise, but dont expect large xp rewards for it. And if your not careful, you can end up dying quite often.
Exactly.
If you want to solo, it is possible. However, your risks of dying are much greater then if you travel in a group.
Because the risks are higher, you must spend more time, "picking your battles" so that you have a chance of coming out alive. None of this running into a mob and assuming you can kill everything for the XP.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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