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Mask of the Betrayer > V2 Crafting
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 10:50 AM |
While I like crafting, and think it should be the primary source of special/magical items in the game, I have problems with rewarding the activity with XP. Keep in mind however that my voice is just one of many. I do not have anything akin to final say. I am just providing a counterpoint to you, Neek, because I think this subject needs a rational debate of the pros and cons which might help the builders.
From a game perspective, I see XP as having two purposes as follows: (1) for the player, it increases your character's power, and (2) for the server, it encourages certain player activities over others by rewarding them. Crafting an item - even without the XP reward - already accomplishes both for a few reasons, but most notably for XP's twin, GOLD PIECES. Crafting is its own reward, and so I do not see why it need to be further rewarded. As long as crafting is a significant source of the better items, it will be pursued, play a major role in the game's economy, and be a source of satisfaction for players.
At present in Vives 1, there is no cost in exchange for the power your character gains from crafting. You gain power through XP, and then gain either wealth through a sale, or power through the use of the item. Given that the NPC crafters are on the server 24/7, they would all be the gods with Vastaldorium the mighty overseer of all. And none of these folks ever ventures out into the wild. What is the trade off? What is the risk?
I do not see crafting as akin to the other sources of XP for one simple reason. The act of crafting is not adventuring. While acquiring the raw materials is often an adventure, grinding away at a crafter's placeable is anything but.
As for the limited XP pool argument:
Vives2 will have a limited pool of optimally gained XP, but the amount of XP you can gain is still infinite. Anyone wishing to simply increase their character's power by grinding monsters and crafting better and better weapons will likely have as little a problem dealing with Vives 2's limitations as they currently do in Vives 1. In otherwords, I don't believe taxing XP for the crafting of powerful/magical items is a problem at all, although the PnP system of XP costs for item creation is likely too steep, I admit. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 11:14 AM |
I don't see any reason: realism, economy control, combat balance... why bashing a bit of bronze/iron/mithral/adamantine into a sword/axe/staff/suit of armor should loose a character xp. I think it does however make sense to decrease profit margins (Perhaps you could have the kings/queens/big glowing disembodied brains in charge of the countries charge value added tax on all sharp things :D).
As I mentioned above; I think spell casters should be able to scribe scrolls. This should COST them xp equivalent to killing about two of the strongest monster that could realistically be killed by a 'damage scroll' of that level. This would make creating scrolls a tactical decision for spell casters.
I recommend this kind of a system for wands, staffs and any other item that uses charges to cast spells. Essentially, this allows a spell caster to craft an item that will let them cast more spells by spending xp. The character may be able to regain (or even make a profit on) this xp if he can use this enhanced casting capacity to achieve his objective, be it killing monsters, gaining access to new areas, stealing items, whatever.
Permanent magic equipment, that is anything that is like normal equipment but has a significant bonus such as an enchantment bonus or a damage bonus should COST XP for the sake of keeping classes balanced. Again using these items once made could result in a net gain in experience.
Crafting most other items that do not effect combat balance should also grant xp.
(If you don't want a tactical attitude to crafting then these ideas will not be appropriate)
If nothing else in this post take note of these three points.
---No weapon should deal more than one type of physical damage (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning, not fire, acid etc.) unless the base weapon also deals more than one type of physical damage.---
The reason for this is that if everyone has weapons that deal all three types of damage then damage reduction becomes obsolete. It is an advantage specific to natural weapons (which deal all three types) and some melle weapons (which deal two types) that they can overcome multiple types of damage reduction.
---Weapons that can be used with the weapon finesse feat should deal less damage than those that can not. (with the exception of monks' unarmed attacks)---
This is realistic for a start, but more importantly it means that strength scores are used in combat. It should be clear why off-hand weapons and rapiers should deal half the damage of greatswords. An exception is made for monks because they only deal one kind of damage and because they do not receive any enchantment bonus to attack or damage rolls.
---Weapons should not have the ability to deal additional dice of physical damage.---
Again this is a luxury of specific melle weapons. In this case the falcion, greatsword, and scythe. Such reliable weapons should be for melle specialists only. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer > V2 Crafting
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 11:23 AM |
At present in Vives 1, there is no cost in exchange for the power your character gains from crafting.
For me the exchange comes in with the fact that crafting is really time consuming. Its drudgery that is not fun in itself, except that you're working towards something. The bang you get at the crafting bench is just the end point in a long cycle of play. Whatever I've gotten from crafting, I've always felt like I earned it with the time I put into crafting, short term and long term.
So, I'd say right now crafting costs hours, so crafting costs a lot!
Edit: Am I confusing the cost to the player vs. the cost to the character? Is there a difference? |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer > V2 Crafting
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 12:46 PM |
Renter,
I am talking about character power. I do recognize that crafting takes time from the player. That said all game activities take time. Thats the cost of Vives. Part of my argument is that since XP encourages some behaviors over others, that XP should be given out to reward the behaviors that are at the heart of vives: storytelling, adventuring, roleplaying etc....
The point I was trying to make with the "no cost" argument above is that a character is rewarded both XP and GP for crafting with no in game tradeoffs. The crafter is rewarded equally to the adventurer, and for some classes crafting reaps greater rewards than adventuring for the very reason that there is no risk. At the very least I don't think that should be the case in Vives. I think a crafter should not be both rich and powerful, but merely rich. I do believe crafting deserves rewards. Just not double rewards. I think the GP rewards of crafting are plenty.
As an aside - given the nature of character advancement and power over NPC's, I have considered XP special, something that you can't get staying at home and working in a shop. Its like some inner power that separates the adventurer from those that stay at home. I suppose I've read The Hero of A Thousand Faces too many times.
Frimble,
we are somewhat in agreement. I agree that not all crafting should cost XP. I am only advocating a cost for items of a certain power level.
I would propose that crafting is divided into two categories: magical and non-magical.
* Non-magical items should not cost any XP whatsoever. This would be equipment, trade goods, tools, even masterwork weapons. I think it is just fine if these items reap large rewards - in gold. But I do not think they should also reward much XP (if any) for the same reasons I made above to Renter.
* Magical items would have an XP cost, but only when you successfully make the item. The XP cost should not be so high as to discourage these items from being made in the first place, but neither should the XP penalty be insignificant relative to the gold piece value of the item.
The purpose for XP cost of magical item crafting is the following: magic items should be special. They should not be a staple trade good. They should enhance the powerlevel of your character above and beyond the norm - rather than be an expected adventurer's accessory. Minor magic items however should have very very low XP penalties. A curelight wounds potion for example would cost 1 XP. The benefit to one's power level by a few healing potions is marginal at best. A flaming magical sword however makes a huge difference to a fighter. I would rather that the fighter need the wizard to cast a temporary enchantment on the sword on an adventure. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 01:43 PM |
---Weapons that can be used with the weapon finesse feat should deal less damage than those that can not. (with the exception of monks' unarmed attacks)---
This is realistic for a start, but more importantly it means that strength scores are used in combat. It should be clear why off-hand weapons and rapiers should deal half the damage of greatswords. An exception is made for monks because they only deal one kind of damage and because they do not receive any enchantment bonus to attack or damage rolls.
Correct me if I'm wrong .. but this is already the case, isn't it? Rapier's already do less damage than say a scimitar or great sword. Dagger's, shortswords, etc. 1d4's, 1d6's vs .. 1d8 and on up? That is sort of the *bane* of the finesse fighter. Their weapons are light and do less damage yet they themselves are harder to hit so it buys them more time for the kill.
Or are you suggesting to weaken it further? Sorry I'm not picking up on what you are saying :) |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 01:49 PM |
Yes, thats right.
It is already the case in normal NwN and 3.5 PnP. However in Vives it is possible to buy a rapier that deals d6 piercing damage and d4 slashing damage or even d6+1 piercing and d6 slashing. I've an idea damage reduction works differently in 3.0 so perhaps it's not so bad as it might be, but it is still much too powerful.
In 3.5 it may be possible to buy a +5 rapier but it costs 50,302gp. A fighter can also buy a +5 greatsword so it doesn't matter.
I have never found that finesse fighters are harder to hit though, not unless they can find themselves a suit of mitheril full plate. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 02:38 PM |
Ah okay, I see what you are saying then :)
And finesse fighter should be harder to hit, least mine are. High dex gets ya pretty darned good AC usually quite a few points higher than one wearing full plate. But, never played a finesse fighter here in Vives so maybe things are different. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 04:08 PM |
Lets see:
Finesse fighter: Dex +5 studded leather armor +3 total: +8
Standard fighter: Dex +1 full plate armor +8 total: +9
Or do you take more ranks in tumble with the Finesse fighter? If it was a PnP character might it have been a duelist rather than a fighter?
I have never worked out a way to make a single class fighter particularly effective as a fencer in spite of the number of times I have tried to find a new build as an opponent for my PnP party. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 04:43 PM |
Okay, I see where we are getting confused by each other. When I say "finesse fighter" I mean Fighter/Rogue ... piratey type, or Ranger/Rogue ... archer/duel wielder ... so yup, max tumble & dex and depending on equipment availability, I'd go padded armor for no dex bonus penalties. I'm speaking in terms of the NWN game & PW's and not PnP.
Also keep in mind my knowledge of 3.5 is limited so I may be wildly off on some things. I'm privately boycotting having to buy more books! ;) |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 04:44 PM |
Uh, fellas, can we keep this on topic, either on the current matter of crafting, or general Mask of the Betrayer stuff and what comes along with it?
Discussions on builds and the likes can be done elsewhere or on a different topic ;)
Thanks |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 04:51 PM |
Time to let out my inner powergamer:
The finesse fighter is better in PnP than NWN by a very very wide margin.
In NWN the game mechanics don't work much the same at all. I haven't figured out how to make a finesse fighter out of the fighter class. I intended Corbin to work this way, but it just didn't work out. I think rogue levels are essential. Incidentally the rogue class makes the finesse fighter much more effective in PnP as well, but I don't believe it is as necessary in PnP as it is in NWN.
My character Saana al-Risani was made in this mode. She has a very high AC for her level especially when you consider that I have not given her the best equipment I can find. I prefer wearing stuff that looks like it belongs in the Kobai. At level 12 I can get her AC ianywhere between 30 - 35 depending on what magic I tack on. I believe if I min maxed it I could give her a 40 AC. Maybe higher, but I don't really know what equipment is available. And then if I took expertise... wow! The AC could shoot way up there.
The key in making this work is having the tumble skill, high dex, and the appropriate armor (armor that doesn't limit your dexterity).
A bard will have defensive magic that further lowers ac, as well as a bard song that provides extra punch to an entire party.
A rogue will have evasion and sneak attack.
All that said however there is a problem in all of D&D. The system is weighted towards getting hit which is why the barbarian is a strong class. More hitpoints mean more than more AC. This is even more so the case in NWN. Saana fights many critters that can only hit her on a 20. Not only does she still get routinely hit in combat. But she still seems to get crited about as often as my other characters.
So after all that I have said... the finesse fighter even when built perfectly does not perform as well the brawny one.
* * *
EDIT -- oh lighten up WA. This is a meaningless thread anyway.  / EDIT
EDIT PS -- AND GET BACK IN GAME! /EDIT
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 04:57 PM |
The point I was trying to make with the "no cost" argument above is that a character is rewarded both XP and GP for crafting with no in game tradeoffs. The crafter is rewarded equally to the adventurer, and for some classes crafting reaps greater rewards than adventuring for the very reason that there is no risk. At the very least I don't think that should be the case in Vives. I think a crafter should not be both rich and powerful, but merely rich. I do believe crafting deserves rewards. Just not double rewards. I think the GP rewards of crafting are plenty.
Uhhh...have you ever crafted a heal potion? Do you knw what it takes to get there? no risk? heh. Stroll right on in then and gather those almonds...pick a few cohosh roots.
Most of the ingredients req'd to craft things can be rather tricky to obtain..go ask that grizzly to just hand over his fur coat.
Sapphires? Fire opals? Really...crafting can spawn adventures...have many times for me...and I am sure others. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 05:14 PM |
In NWN the game mechanics don't work much the same at all. I haven't figured out how to make a finesse fighter out of the fighter class. I intended Corbin to work this way, but it just didn't work out. I think rogue levels are essential. Incidentally the rogue class makes the finesse fighter much more effective in PnP as well, but I don't believe it is as necessary in PnP as it is in NWN.
Haven't done the fighter clases much in PnP so can't really say..but...a monk does well multiclassing with dex fighters. Nice to have empty body twice a day and high ac...tumble and wisdom bonus..+1 to ac for every 5 monk levels...gets up there pretty quick and if dual wielding kama's? And able to hide in shadows and move as fast as most pc's running? Sheesh |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 05:22 PM |
In 3.5 monks can't multiclass (well they can, but they can't gain any more levels in monk if they do). Why? Rogue/Monk/Fighter is just too good as a build.
The complete adventure contains several feats that allow monks to multiclass with specific classes however. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 05:23 PM |
| And the speed bonus is capped at level 8 iirc |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 08:06 PM |
The key in making this work is having the tumble skill, high dex, and the appropriate armor (armor that doesn't limit your dexterity).
That IS a problem in Vives... and hopefully wont be in Vives 2 (if I have anything to say about it)
Cora was built with high DEX and the idea that she would wear armor that had no dexterity penalty on it... but oh my cow is it hard to find armor in Vives with no DEX penalty.
What I ended up with was Elven mithril chain... and after becoming a DM I learned just how ...displeased, certain DM's were about non-elves using UMD to wear elven only armor.
Well, there was no other choice really. For whatever reason, the powers that be (the makers of NWN?) didn't provide for a high DEX PC when it came to armor... I'm not all that happy about it.
I thought perhaps I made an unusual build, bumping my DEX really high and wearing zero AC armor, counting on my DEX bonus to get my AC to a decent level... and I was told that yes, that is unusual... but I STILL don't buy it. DEX is such an important stat for a rogue, why would others not think of going that route?
Anyway.. like I say... If I can, I'll see that there are high DEX, zero AC options for PC's in Vives 2. |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 09:30 PM |
The key in making this work is having the tumble skill, high dex, and the appropriate armor (armor that doesn't limit your dexterity).
That IS a problem in Vives... and hopefully wont be in Vives 2 (if I have anything to say about it)
Cora was built with high DEX and the idea that she would wear armor that had no dexterity penalty on it... but oh my cow is it hard to find armor in Vives with no DEX penalty.
What I ended up with was Elven mithril chain... and after becoming a DM I learned just how ...displeased, certain DM's were about non-elves using UMD to wear elven only armor.
Well, there was no other choice really. For whatever reason, the powers that be (the makers of NWN?) didn't provide for a high DEX PC when it came to armor... I'm not all that happy about it.
I thought perhaps I made an unusual build, bumping my DEX really high and wearing zero AC armor, counting on my DEX bonus to get my AC to a decent level... and I was told that yes, that is unusual... but I STILL don't buy it. DEX is such an important stat for a rogue, why would others not think of going that route?
Anyway.. like I say... If I can, I'll see that there are high DEX, zero AC options for PC's in Vives 2.
Amen!
Alton was a finesse fighter with a very high dex bonus, but also lacked good armor that doesn't limit DEX bonus. Unfortunately, lacking UMD skill, he had to make do with what he had, which wasn't a lot.
I really hope that Vives 2 would compliment all types of builds. If the DMs are displeased with players using items they're not supposed to, give them other options instead. I don't care of those darned elves demand all the good stuff. Burn 'em, I say! |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 23 Oct 2007 11:37 PM |
Ran Vrodo the same way for a while. He wore the "Master of the Wild Robes", which were AC 0. That was before he put on "the last suit he'll ever wear".
I can get his AC up around 28 w/ a good shield and buffs, but he goes around ordinarily w/ an AC around 20 or 22, which means he fails as a dexterity fighter. If he can't kill his opponent in 4 or 6 blows in a blitz style attack, he's gonna get clobbered. Nobody has trouble hitting him unless I make some compromises. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 24 Oct 2007 01:31 AM |
Uhhh...have you ever crafted a heal potion? Do you knw what it takes to get there? no risk? heh. Stroll right on in then and gather those almonds...pick a few cohosh roots.
I consider that adventuring. For the sake of this argument gathering is not crafting, but an adjunct activity that supports it. Gathering does not give you XP itself, neither is it an integral part of the crafting activity. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 24 Oct 2007 03:49 AM |
Uh, fellas, can we keep this on topic, either on the current matter of crafting, or general Mask of the Betrayer stuff and what comes along with it?
Discussions on builds and the likes can be done elsewhere or on a different topic ;)
Thanks
On topic? This is the most thread-jackinest thread ever. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 24 Oct 2007 10:53 AM |
XP for Crafting?
Yeah, sure. But Renter6 is an XP grinder. I'll set his crafting xp rewards to 1/10 normal. That should fix the worst abuse. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 24 Oct 2007 12:17 PM |
| Argh! Caught! |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 24 Oct 2007 12:18 PM |
| Salt is a great character to have in the game though. Even when he's not there its nice to have an epic wizard PC to talk about, doing things in the background the importance of which lesser heroes cannot fully appreciate... Or just wandering around bashing valuable materials into invaluable artifacts. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 24 Oct 2007 12:56 PM |
| Which reminds me... how is that stuffed demon head working out? I want to see it! |
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Re: Mask of the Betrayer
Posted: 24 Oct 2007 07:10 PM |
I consider that adventuring. For the sake of this argument gathering is not crafting, but an adjunct activity that supports it. Gathering does not give you XP itself, neither is it an integral part of the crafting activity.
This argument meaning your advocation that crafting should cost xp?
Nevertheless the "gathering" does generate a good deal of adventuring. Many times I have seen low levels party together and work together to obtain crafting materials. That they might not have obtained otherwise.
You want realism? How about removing -all- of a harvest means it doesn't grow there again unless reseeded. That a small amount of the harvest can be transplanted and cared for...farmed. Too many problems to overcome?
Crafting gives a pc something to do when there is no one on to do anything with. Besides go whack monsters. It is no less realistic in my humble opinion than a wizard gaining xp from saying spells or a rogue from picking locks. After all it is progressively less rewarding to craft the same item over and over. Sure role play and partying and adventuring is what this server is meant for. It's main purpose. And I'm -sure- (dripping sarcasm intended) that you take all the pc's who have played on Vives and the majority of their xp points came from role play rewards. It is far less a sin to craft than it is to slay monsters repeatedly in the same area and loot it as far as I am concerned.
How many times has a "butler" outfit been sold? How many times by someone who visited there the first time?
Nothing is perfect. Not even Vives. Nor will be Vives 2. Then again if it was already perfect what affect could we have as pc's but to spoil the whole thing ;^P
In my PnP adventures....role play points are about a tenth what my xp from overcoming monsters usually is...and I regularly get greater xp rewards from my PnP dm I might add. It's all about bringing them to life..this means putting what -I- see as his characteristics into action and dialogue. Not what the story line is..hell it might even alter the whole story.
One of Al's (my PnP dm) favorite tales is of an adveturing group that travelled and worked for months striving to reach the end of the module. One day a mage cast a spell ...trying to undue a recent event. Wish was the spell...the wish..."I wish this whole thing had never happened."
He paused...then reached for the beginning of the module and started setting the first scene again. |
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