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Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 12:23 PM |
I thought I would try to be subtle in this post, but I am who I am.
Believe it or not it pains me to have to right this as I can remember a time when it was not even possible to begin to fathom this ever happening to Vives. So I will start with two examples:
1) when I first came to Vives we were like a little struggling family, well better than a family because we were all equals, not only equals in IRC, but equals as players and DMs alike. I can remember joking around with Alosynth and Aria and Arathon like they were just other players and I sure can remember them joking around with me lol. So my example is, The first time I was in Vives, power gaming aside, we had a little meeting IG in the OOC lounge. We all sat down on the couches and started discussing what Vives was about and how important influence from players was. We also noted on how important it was to have the right to put your two cents in, how ever dumb everybody else thought it was, and not be afraid.
2) nearly 3 months after I returned I wrote a post that was silly and got it edited my our favourite nanny Alosynth. Now me and alo go way back so when I entered IRC and called him a bastard, as a joke, I didn't think anything of it. That is when I got kicked. Well that is not the unusual part, the part which concerned me was the kick message, "don't insult DMs." This frightened me, a began to question the Operator and found that he was not who I remembered him as being. It was not alo. I even had to use the name Herner which really got me worried.
So, what has gone awry? Nothing? Everything is just fine? Or has the mood of the poiwer structure in vives begun to shift into Admin and players? I personally hope not, but after reading some postings on questioning the DM work I find that I cannot ignore this, not to mention the fact that just today a player told me he is thinking about leaving for these very reasons. I love Vives, I am an addict and will never leave, but I won't let it fall into Herner chaos. If infact you have had reason to change the equality factor, which I so enjoy in Vives, then it saddens me a great deal.
I think it is time to do some self-evaluating Administration, if only as a stupid thing I asked you to do, as a friend.
With a passion, Sion
Ps; I'm closing my eyes and hitting post, hoping I don't hurt anybody's feelings.
Pps; I'm not allowing replies to this post because I don't want this to turn into an Admin VS Player thing, agreeing and not agreeing, I just want to put my feelings out there and see if they are still accepted, or just stifled.
Pps: This is probably the most serious you will ever see me. I am really EXTREMEMELY concerned! |
When in doubt, mumble. When in trouble, delegate. |
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Re: Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 03:29 PM |
1) when I first came to Vives we were like a little struggling family, well better than a family because we were all equals, not only equals in IRC, but equals as players and DMs alike.
I completely disagree. Players take much less risk and responsibility that DMs who in turn take less risk and responsibility than admins. This risk and responsibility involves building the mod, building the story, and building the environment. Not to say players don't contribute to these things, just that they don't have the burden of risk and responsibility. This is a distinction that many players don't ever realize (until they run their own server).
The first time I was in Vives, power gaming aside, we had a little meeting IG in the OOC lounge. We all sat down on the couches and started discussing what Vives was about and how important influence from players was. We also noted on how important it was to have the right to put your two cents in, how ever dumb everybody else thought it was, and not be afraid.
Sure, 1) DMs are human and 2) I believe we still promote such feedback. DMs and admins are human and need feedback on how well we do. In the early days from a player's perspective this may have seemed more direct, and it was since there are fewer players and therefore less stress on the system and people's time. So, as it may not feel as direct, I still welcome player feedback. The forums are probably the best place, given availability of those with whom you're trying to communicate. I believe your post is an excellent example of this process still at work.
2) nearly 3 months after I returned I wrote a post that was silly and got it edited my our favourite nanny Alosynth. Now me and alo go way back so when I entered IRC and called him a bastard, as a joke, I didn't think anything of it. That is when I got kicked. Well that is not the unusual part, the part which concerned me was the kick message, "don't insult DMs." This frightened me, a began to question the Operator and found that he was not who I remembered him as being. It was not alo. I even had to use the name Herner which really got me worried.
I apologize if I hurt your feelings. I was not privy to the entire interaction between you and Alo, and perhaps I acted rashly. But from my perspective and your past activities, I only perceived insolence. As I see it, one of the aspects of the responsibility of running a server is to foster an environment where people are not intimidated and feel welcome. This goes both ways; this should be true for players as well as DMs. Players attacking other players or players attacking DMs in either case can't be tolerated. I'm sure you can agree that neither players nor DMs should have to tolerate abuse. So, again, my apologies if I misunderstood your and Alo's interaction.
So, what has gone awry? Nothing? Everything is just fine? Or has the mood of the poiwer structure in vives begun to shift into Admin and players? I personally hope not, but after reading some postings on questioning the DM work I find that I cannot ignore this, not to mention the fact that just today a player told me he is thinking about leaving for these very reasons. I love Vives, I am an addict and will never leave, but I won't let it fall into Herner chaos. If infact you have had reason to change the equality factor, which I so enjoy in Vives, then it saddens me a great deal.
As far as I can tell there never was a power struggle, so I'm not quite sure where you're coming from there. The main thing that has changed is that Vives is getting bigger. There are benefits and drawbacks to this. As more people come to Vives, I'm sure you can understand the stress (both good & bad) that is causes on the DMs. More people means more things to manage and thus less time all around. As more people come by, some don't fit well with Vives as it was envisioned and we should learn to accept this fact. This is a hard one for me personally to accept as I want as many people to come and enjoy Vives. But we're not going to change Vives from what it was envisioned to be just to fill the server. Part of making Vives the RP server it's meant to be is letting go of those who move on and embracing those who stay. So, perhaps these growing pains is the real issue you're getting at?
I think it is time to do some self-evaluating Administration, if only as a stupid thing I asked you to do, as a friend.
You don't seem to realize that this already occurs much more than you could imagine.
With a passion, Sion
Ps; I'm closing my eyes and hitting post, hoping I don't hurt anybody's feelings.
Sorry to disappoint, but it does hurt my feelings (especially the connotation of the topic of your post). I don't know why I would spend the time here unless it was to develop a fun and enjoyable place for people to come and hang out. I'm not looking for a server full of sycophants, as that would disgust me. We all know what that was like elsewhere. I'm simply interested in doing what I enjoy and I'm glad when others can benefit and enjoy from it as well. What's painful and disappointing for me is when this is unsuccessful either by my own fault or people not caring to be reasonable in understanding the effort involved.
Pps; I'm not allowing replies to this post because I don't want this to turn into an Admin VS Player thing, agreeing and not agreeing, I just want to put my feelings out there and see if they are still accepted, or just stifled.
The post wasn't locked when I replied. I would have unlocked it anyway, to be honest. If there is an issue this important to be discussed, I don't see how locking the thread will help.
-Q |
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Re: Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 08:13 PM |
I really hate to get involved in things like this, but I felt a need to reply to this.
Sorry Q, but I have to go with Sion on this one. I have noticed things like this happening in Vives as of lately, and it is coming to a point where it can't be ignored. I think because the majority of us are from LoL, we (The DMs included) have developed a paranoia. We don't want to become anywhere close to LoL, but in all this paranoia, we have lost sight of what are real goals were, and are turning into what we most hated. Sion is one of the originals in Vives and was around in its earliest stages, if he doesn't have the right to joke around with his friends, who happen to be DMs, what impression will that give to the new players? They will percieve you guys as not even humans, more like.... machines. I would hate to see Vives turn into this, and if it ever does, I will up and leave without a second thought.
Perhaps a solution to this is that we have a huge meeting, all the players and DMs come into IRC and discuss face-to-face what they think of Vives. Really DISCUSS, and solve this problem between DMs and Players. |
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Re: Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 08:45 PM |
Sion is one of the originals in Vives and was around in its earliest stages, if he doesn't have the right to joke around with his friends, who happen to be DMs, what impression will that give to the new players?
Joking around and all is fine, however, with the internet, people do not often see the sarcasm or know of the history that differentiates some statements between harmless jokes and vulgarity or all out flames. Me and my buddies dont go around in public calling eachother some of the horribly vulgar things (which I wont repeat even in PM) that we do in private. A new person would not see the hilarity, just the bile, and likely be turned off of Vives because of it just the same as if I were to call a co-worker a ******* infront a customer, the customer would think twice about giving us their business. As Q said, he perhaps misunderstood the situation, and in his haste put in DM's, when in fact, it would have applied to anyone being insulted, DM or newbie.
We have been, and always will be fully open to constructive criticism. There has not yet been any censored or deleted posts that were not outright flames of players or spamming of threads. Nor are there more than a couple locked threads through the entire forums. We as admins and DM's are always open about our decisions and will continue to be so, as well, calm discussions are always welcome. |
~Alosynth
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Re: Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 08:56 PM |
I really hate to get involved in things like this, but I felt a need to reply to this.
That's part of the intent.
Sorry Q, but I have to go with Sion on this one. I have noticed things like this happening in Vives as of lately, and it is coming to a point where it can't be ignored. I think because the majority of us are from LoL, we (The DMs included) have developed a paranoia. We don't want to become anywhere close to LoL, but in all this paranoia, we have lost sight of what are real goals were, and are turning into what we most hated. Sion is one of the originals in Vives and was around in its earliest stages, if he doesn't have the right to joke around with his friends, who happen to be DMs, what impression will that give to the new players? They will percieve you guys as not even humans, more like.... machines. I would hate to see Vives turn into this, and if it ever does, I will up and leave without a second thought.
Well, I see this two things:
1) If this is what Sion's post was about, then it was a specific incident and it sounds more like a personal issue (which is fine), and so I'm not sure a public forum discussion is warranted. If instead it's a larger issue server-wide, then that's fine as well, and as far as I'm concerned does warrant a discussion, such as this one.
2) Where does the line get drawn for me (and DMs/admins) trying to foster a comfortable environment for people to want to hang out? Recently, I recall getting on the cases of some people in IRC, Rachel, that were specifically bothering people. I asked them to stop and got all sorts of flak about it. Should I have let them continue? As I recall, the person they were bothering left IRC as a result. I felt bad all around, 1) for the person that was being harassed and 2) for having to be the bad guy, and 3) for the people I asked to stop, since I had to disrupt them.
Perhaps a solution to this is that we have a huge meeting, all the players and DMs come into IRC and discuss face-to-face what they think of Vives. Really DISCUSS, and solve this problem between DMs and Players.
So then is this a larger general DM issue or just me personally? Or perhaps it's a result of me trying to foster such an environment and it's backfired? Also, this sounds more like an IRC thing than an IG/IC issue, or perhaps I'm wrong on that front as well?
-Q |
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Re: Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 10:10 PM |
| I'm totally lost here 'cause I dont even know what LoL is but this is a wonderful place please if it's needed let's meet an talk an prove the world wrong for once. Folks can get along and solve things I am sure of it. |
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Re: Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Posted: 15 Dec 2003 10:28 PM |
We don't need to prove things or fix things by all sitting around a round table and spouting out ideals we all already know. One bad day/quest doens't make a server. We'll fix it and strive on to be a great server by just forging ahead and to continue to play in the spirit of Vives.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Posted: 16 Dec 2003 09:26 AM |
I think all the players here need to take a deep breath and chill out!
In my opinion, there is NOT a problem or 'power struggle' with the DMs/Admin. and the players at all. The problem lies with people who have nothing better to do than post in here complaining about how he/she was mistreated on a quest or in IRC. Sion, I don't know you, and I'm just using your name as an example since you started this thread, but the only power struggle you percieve is in your mind. I mean come man, calling someone a 'b*st*rd' in open IRC is just bad taste(why do we have PM's?) even if you are best friends; but what is even worse is for you to misconstrew someone telling you not to use profanity towards a DM in open IRC into a 'power struggle' between DMs/Admin. and players. I mean are you just trying to start a fuss or what? I'm sure Q would have told you to zip it had you directed your comment at a player instead of a DM. Oh, and there is no reason to drag Lands of Lore or Herner's name in this. Vives is nothing like LoL, and hopefully it never will be. I certainly hope we can all agree on that.
Look, we(players) are in their(DM/Admin.) world when we step in Vives and decide to play. Nobody forces us to come here. Players help shape and change Vives, but Vives is the baby of the DMs/Admin., not the players. I think all the players need to realize this. These DMs/Admin. don't get paid to listen to you guys whine all the time; they don't get paid period...they do this because they love to spend their free time providing a service/world for players, which in turn make themselves happy. I wish more players would just think about that before they decide to post these whinny posts because something didn't go their way. Why can't players take a little more responsibility for his/her actions, instead of pitching a fit, starting a new deconstructive thread in the forum,and blaming their actions on a 'power struggle' between DMs and players?
This is just a game folks! let's try and remember that and keep flames, negative criticism off these forums and put them in PMs..seriously, isn't that why we have PMs?
I don't know about the lot of you out there, but I hate seeing deconstructive criticisim posts from players who don't always get his/her way in the forum getting in the way of all our fun here in Vives! I'd much reather read about someones adventure or currnet envents in Vives.
over and out
Gene |
"PLEASE!!! Bury me with it!" |
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Re: Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Posted: 16 Dec 2003 09:51 AM |
This is just a game folks! let's try and remember that and keep flames, negative criticism off these forums and put them in PMs..seriously, isn't that why we have PMs?
I don't know about the lot of you out there, but I hate seeing deconstructive criticisim posts from players who don't always get his/her way in the forum getting in the way of all our fun here in Vives! I'd much reather read about someones adventure or currnet envents in Vives.
over and out
Gene
I think Gene pretty much said it all with this. Yes occasionally a quest might end with unexpected results, but as someone else said in here, to err is human. The DMs and Admins provide us with hours of fun (if not directly by questing, remember who built the whole world in the first time) and like Gene said: they do not get paid for it. We cannot and should not expect them to be infallible machines that spew forth one quest after another.
I've only heard about LoL and read the posts on NWVault about it, well in my humble opinion Vives is NOTHING like that at all. Should one mishap or error condemn an entire server to be compared to another world where everything that could go wrong went wrong? I think not.
And indeed lets not forget: the world belongs to the Admins and DMs. I can only imagine the number of hours they put in to make this an enjoyable module (and I'm guessing that it's a lot more than my 500 hours of gaming time). They enjoy having input from the players to improve the world, so yes constructive criticism is a good thing. This is not a democracy however, so the final word should be with the Admins and DMs (remember in the Dungeon Master's Guide the DM is supposed to be the ruler and he always has the last word). So in that context the players are allowed a lot more liberty here, for they can give their input.
One final note about the irc incident: remember that the written word is hard to interprete. After all if someone writes something sarcastic, without proper emotes or explanation it could be interpreted as something completely different. Irony and sarcasm are fine in real life, because you can hear the intonation (and sometimes even then it's hard).
Just my 2 cents |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Posted: 16 Dec 2003 12:16 PM |
One final note about the irc incident: remember that the written word is hard to interprete. After all if someone writes something sarcastic, without proper emotes or explanation it could be interpreted as something completely different. Irony and sarcasm are fine in real life, because you can hear the intonation (and sometimes even then it's hard).
Not to comment for or against someone, but I thought this particular point is quite interesting. It's even scientifically proven people act different on the internet than they would do in RL. The most important cause is the fact the only thing you see is a computer screen with letters on it. No people to look at, nor their facial expressions, just cold, simple words, given meaning in a phrase. As such it is very easy to misunderstand one and another as Phoenix points out.
Especially people who are ESL might struggle with this problem. I know I have, it is terribly annoying. A word construction in your own original language, directly translated to english can get a slightly different meaning to the whole. Annoying as this could mean people easily misunderstand your true intention. It can complicate matters and even start heated arguments. I once spend 2 hours arguing with someone to find out then we meant exactly the same but worded it slightly different.
So if you ever read something and think: hmm that sounds strange/offensive to me, not really common for that person to do so... ASK THEM for elaboration. The real problem starts when people stick to assuming and presuming things for others, realizing it might be odd, but not speaking up to clarify matters.
And keep in mind the phrase: Express yourself.
To express yourself on the internet is hell. It is what I hate about it, the lack of human contact.
End lecture  .
Rul |
Why can't I PM myself?
Don't iron out the Irony. |
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