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Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 20 Jul 2008 04:43 PM |
| Not really a wish so much as curiosity.. I've been messing with the official campaign crafting and while it's sort of fun for a single player game I can't see it fitting with Vives. At least not as it is now. I expect any crafting system we'll be seeing is already set, so just wanted to see if anyone would spill the beans as to what (if any) crafting system we'll be seeing. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 20 Jul 2008 09:46 PM |
| Or is it a good time for input from the power-crafting set? |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 03:02 AM |
| Fire away! We'd like your input. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 06:41 AM |
Didn't we (I) cause enough trouble last time? :)
http://vives.dyndns.org/vives/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=61649&PageIndex=6 |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 08:01 AM |
*does Frimble's assigned reading before saying more*
Good point amigo, may dead horses remain unbeaten. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 12:53 PM |
*does Frimble's assigned reading before saying more*
Good point amigo, may dead horses remain unbeaten.
*Finishes his own reading and hesitantly steps forward* :)
Ok... I'm hoping for a can of beans, not a can of worms here but seemed like that dealt with the rewards of crafting more then crafting itself so I have a few things to say.
First of, I love the use related experience here. Not PC exp but crafting experience. (Not going into PC exp cause that involves system balancing and whatnot). You make a dagger.. its a bit easier for you. One thing about Vives is far as I can tell there are no caps on crafting exp. It gets harder in one but the next one is just as easy. You can have a character that can do all of the crafts by themselves if you put in the time. And having done this, I'm not sure how I feel about it or how it could be changed. Just throwing it out there.
Base crafting - (Armour, weapons, gems, so on)
On to crafting itself, for base crafting I don't much care for the NWN2 process. The ability to craft being tied into character level (due to skill points needed in craft whatever) doesn't seem to fit Vives. This leads me to assume some there is a different crafting system in place. Along with means to gather the needed materials. The Vives system is place is great at this I think. The results of the different metals are horrible I believe in Nwn and personally not that great in Vives I think. Veran sent me some ideas he wrote up ages ago that were brilliant. And the most important part of his thoughts was that smithed weapons are not magic, and baring something like adamantium vs stoneskin shouldn't bypass magic spells on their own. Smithed weapons should primarily produce damage bonuses rather then enchantment bonuses. Speculating on what bonuses each metal should offer again is pointless without knowing the balancing involved, but what I'd really be interested in is people using different weapons because of different styles, not because one is the best.
In Vives right now using a crafted weapon is nearly pointless compared to what can be purchased, and so you end up having a handful of character using the same exact equipment. Take a fighter from Vives right now, give him the ingame arms of choice you'll generally end up with someone wearing Seth's armour, carrying an aecini shield and a greater astral blade. Which is a little sad, a character's choice of gear should represent the character. I'll come back to this shortly..
Enchanting - (Weapons, armor, trinkets)
I honestly love how this was done in Nwn2. It could have been better, but its still really good. Three enchantments on an item. You have good ol' Sand magic you up gear that fits your style exactly - well almost (bloody fool not being able to cast mage armour). It would have been nice if you were required to have the recipe ingame to cast it, rather then being able to look them up elsewhere. With all that said, as well as it fits a single player game, it needs work for Vives. Again due to balancing I'm not going to bother suggesting enchantments themselves. I will say that a high end enchanter and mage should be able to match what any towers of wizardry provide. (A ring of intelligence in Vives has a description that all the towers in Vives know how to make them, but characters can't do any enchanting of items.. In my mind Talion who's life's goal for the past two years has been learning enchanting can make these as well. Plus any number of commonly appearing enchantment. I buy the item of course, but for him, he made it.)
For this part, I do like the idea of limits based on caster level. It just doesn't make sense for any low level warrior to learn enchanting and bounce his sword up to the highest levels possible. The great thing about the system already, is limits are built right in via the gem required. If, like Vives, the different gems are only obtainable in high level areas your looking at a massive undertaking for the more powerful enchantments whatever they may be.
Alchemy - (Potions and whatnot)
I really think Nwn2 missed the mark here. But after seeing the Vives system, it would be hard to match up. Nothing to comment here, just keep the Vives system. Its great, its perfect, don't change a thing.
Woodworking - (Bow and arrows)
Again.. the new system that came out with the different arrows and all.. brilliant. The only thing I would have done differently is since even the most basic arrows required Ash is make it slightly more available. The resources to make the higher end arrows mean even with Ash easier to get you still don't have dozens of epic fletchers.
Tailoring - (Leather and cloth)
Again, I think Vives pulled off leather working brilliantly. The tanning, the curing, its irritatingly fun. As for working cloth, robes, common wear... I don't really have a clue how this one might be changed. With monks, mages, duelists, and rogues there is certainly a need for 0 AC armour but other then making all high end clothing out of rare silks, I'm clueless as to how this might be done.
Gem Crafting - (Gems and jewelery)
This is a hard one I think. In Vives other then a few scarabs the jewelery is rather forgettable. And with it needing an enchanter to make anything useful for the common adventurer, does this become a middleman? Do we have people who make amulets and rings that are worth some coin but do nothing until they're passed off to a mage? Does every high end gem need to pass the hands of a gemcrafter before being enchanted? This could work out, you'd have partnerships between gemcrafters and mages to work any enchantments. (especially if there is a crafter experience limit) Or enchanters who's second craft is gemcrafting. Its a hard sell making a crafter that is completely reliant on another trade to produce any usable results. Every other craft has usable results without anyone else. Even the enchanter can take a crap weapon and make it usable.
-----
To end my ramblings, I really want to stress what I see in crafting. There are two things this does for a land - First and foremost it helps define a character. "Role-playing is stressed above all in Vives, and the players in the world range from the lazy halfling content to take another pinch of Winky's famous Tobacco to the fallen cleric, whose beauty is matched only by her insanity, to the mixed up bard, who unwittingly ends up on a world-saving quest, to the mage who struggles with the pressure of becoming a keeper of the lore, but at what cost." You also have the heavily accented street girl who's tailoring is the match of any shop in town. And if she works for a certain orclun philanthropist in her spare time, that's her business.
I think crafting helps define other characters as well, by giving them the option to have equipment that fits them. Where carrying a Rabianara blade has as much use as going to some random merchant. I loved when I was playing a character with a low enough level that the difference between an iron sword and whatever else he could buy didn't mean death. Brant was thrilled when he purchased a pair of custom short sword's from the most famous smith in Port Royale. And I'd like to see that sort of customization useful, because a Rabianara blade should be more useful then grabbing some greater astral blade from an insane gnome.
Anyway.. hopefully Veran will post some of his own thoughts because he rambles more efficiently then I have here, and he is after all the master of the crafting system. Of course any thoughts are welcome.. but again the whole xp vs xp loss was pretty well hammered already, see above post if needed. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 03:28 PM |
An Excellent post Morarity. *applauds*
I have never done much crafting since I realised that my character would require a lot of practice to learn how to make fruit juice reliably. So I doubt I'll say much in this thread (famous last words).
With regard to different materials for mundane weapons, I would like to repeat a point I have made before (I can't remember where).
D&D Is not designed to have weapon varients that deal several types of physical damage. Some weapons such as the morning-star have the specific advantage that they do deal several types of physical damage. However the game is not designed to include say a rapier that deals D4 slashing damage on top of the normal D6 piercing damage. Immediately you start to introduce weapons like this you are fundamentally changing the game balance (not necessarily a bad thing, but you have to be careful).
However D&D is designed to have monsters that only certain weapons can harm. I agree that weapons made from special substances should not bypass spells (I am willing to defend this view if necessary). However I believe that rather than have an 'iron dagger' deal an extra D4 bludgeoning damage it should bypass the damage reduction (or even if you like gain a special bonus against) a certain type of creature.
A similar approach could be used for armor (and jewelry). Certain materials could protect against certain creatures.
Taken to extreme this would mean that before a character even considered going into certain areas they would first make a weapon that gave them bonuses against the monsters in that area.
I have no opinion as to whether this is a good or a bad thing, but I would like to highlight some features of this kind of game play.
Firstly it could be used to force players to craft weapons. Second it would make the xp system easier to control (regardless whether that system is similar to the Vives 1 system or not). Third it could (note could not would) punish monks and other builds that don't use weapons for some reason.
On a different note, I would be more inclined to craft items if I didn't have to make more items than I was going to use in order to progress to the next item. I realise that this change will probably not be approved by many other players. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 05:21 PM |
A lot of good points were made in the other thread. I thought I had a lot to say about this, but these are just some scattered notes.
1. I have come around to Game Warden's point of view about crafting experience. I would still work at crafting if it netted me no XP other than crafting XP. For that matter, I would still work at crafting if it cost me XP, as it is now with scrolls and wands.
Turns out there's a lot of satisfaction from investing precious XP into an item. That item becomes a real treasure.
I don't know how crafting works in NWN2, but I love the idea of necessary partnerships between crafters and enchanters. I'm thinking about the way creating magical items was described in 1st Ed. AD&D, my only frame of reference.
2. The way wood crafting was reworked is terrific: the recipes make sense, they are realistic and they are plausible. If weapon and armor smithing were reworked along these lines, there would be no tin, copper, gold or platinum used in smithing. All of that business is implausible to me, with just a few exceptions (silver for lycanthropes? Why not?).
Iron should be the basis for just about every weapon and every metal armor. What if this hierarchy of weapon materials, 50% of which is silly:
Tin - Copper - Iron - Silver - Platinum - Titanium - Cobalt - Gold - Mithril - Adamantium
Were replaced with something like this one?
Cast Bronze - Cast Iron - Wrought Iron - Steel - Silver - Refined Steel - Masterwork Steel/Damascus - Meteoric Iron - Mithril - Adamantium
The soft metals would still be necessary for jewelry. In the end there would be a broader range of materials smelted for jewelry, weapons and armor, and a bulked-up CNR database.
Most of these, as I see it, would call for more than one metal to be alloyed, the way gold now requires gold and tin to produce ingots. Nickel could be mined and charcoal manufactured in public furnaces for some of the higher-grade metals to be produced (charcoal could be the "empty flask" of the smithing trades):
Cast Bronze = tin + copper
Cast Iron = iron only (simple stuff to make)
Wrought Iron = cast iron ingots
Steel = wrought iron ingots + charcoal
Silver = silver + nickel + skill
Refined Steel = wrought iron ingots + charcoal + nickel + extensive skill
Masterwork Steel = wrought iron + charcoal + nickel + incomparable skill
Low-quality Damascus = wrought iron + steel folded together
High-quality Damascus = steel + refined steel folded together
Mithril = FOIG??? Secret alloys, magical fuels/heat, etc.?
3. Placeable crafting stations are the bane of CNR systems in every server that has crafting. Sometimes they make sense, sometimes they don't. You need to find a forge to do smithing, and you need a furnace to smelt metal, but every home should have a hearth for cooking and an oven for baking.
Public crafting stations are a weird idea in themselves. Cooks don't let strangers use their pots and knives, and a smith doesn't risk some idiot marring their anvil. Even community mills have millers who do the actual work of operating the machinery.
Crafting stations always end up feeling like what they are - a gimmick for making crafting one degree more challenging and time-consuming. There are never enough of them, by which I really mean there is never one where you want it. Crafting shouldn't be made any easier - it should be harder if anything - but this chokehold is so annoying. Is there a better way?
Could some crafts require only portable devices? Attach the dialog for wood crafting to a "toolbox" that contained the ingredients you want to craft with? Weave cloth anywhere with a backstrap loom? Is that a huge balance issue?
What if you could buy an anvil, but it weighed 250 lbs? Still need a forge, and tools.
What if a crafter had to build their own crafting stations, and that equipment wore out after a certain number of attempts, like running out of charges?
Recipe for a furnace for smelting metal = 100 units of quarried stone (a new CNR available from designated quarry sites) + 20 buckets of water + 20 bags of sand for mortar + 20 lumps of clay for a lining. Lasts for 200-300 attempted ingots before rupturing like a fireball on the last attempt.
Recipe for a baking oven built out in the woods = 20 smooth river rocks (a new CNR found in streams) + 20 short staves of oak or hickory + 20 lumps of clay for fireproofing. Lasts for 40 or 50 batches and then it melts.
Just spitballing here! |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 05:33 PM |
What about alloys? In PnP the 'Silver' weapons used to fight lycanthropes and devils is actually a silver alloy (referred to as alchemical silver) rather than pure silver. Similarly the 'iron' used against fey and demons is actually as substance referred to as 'cold iron' and is a special kind of iron with a lower melting point that is more powerful against these creatures when it is worked at low temperatures.
In this way a gold neckles or a gold alloy sword could provide bonuses against some other creature. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 07:15 PM |
Since I didn't consider that fact that a good number of people don't know the NWN2 crafting system here's a .... somewhat brief summery.
The skills involved for crafting are:
These are normal skills gained at level
Craft Alchemy
Craft Armor
Craft Trap
Craft Weapon
The feats involved are:
Craft magical weapons and armor
Craft wondrous item
Craft wand (Works same as NWN)
Scribe Scroll (Works same as NWN)
Brew potion (Works same as NWN)
Craft alchemy allows certain ingredients to be mixed at alchemy stations into throwable items:
Acid Flasks, Alchemist's Fire, Choking Powder, Holy Water, Thunderstones, Tanglefootbags and poisons. Each has four powers; normal, improved, great, and perfected.
It also makes possible breaking down various items you can find in stores or random loot from monsters into what are called Essences. Essences are a component of enchanting. - Think elemental bags in Vives.
Alchemy plays no part in creations of potions - that is worked by casting a spell on a bottle, losing exp and gold in the process. (Requires brew potion feat)
Craft Armor/Weapons, these both work by purchasing a mold for a specific item (Longsword, Full Plate, ect) combining that mold with the required amount of material on a smith's bench. (One to three ingots depending on the item). Then using a hammer on the bench.
The base materials ingame are iron, leather, and wood. Each producing a standard - no effect result based on the mold you used. Beyond these you have alchemical silver, darksteel, cold iron, mithral, and adamantine that compose the metals. Duskwood, shederran, and zalantar the woods. With salamander hide, umber hulk hide, and red dragon hide as the other leathers.
The metals add few bonuses - adamantime ignore certain damage reductions, and some metals work better on certain creatures. Mithril used for armor drops the armor class requirement by one. (IE: Mithril fullplate can be worn by someone that only has the ability to wear medium armor, and lowers weight) These are imbeded scripts not bonuses on the weapon. They could be ignored, just set everything in the toolset to iron and call it whatever you like it'll list list the item as metal when you examine it but it'll have exactly the bonuses and name you want for it. As far as I can they are unchangeable at the base code. So unfortunately you can't go and make up your own base metals and have then register certain effects regardless of bonuses on the item. (An alchemical silver weapon works better against shapeshifters and some fiends, but has no bonuses listed on the weapon itself.) ... I have no idea if this'll make any sense for someone that hasn't seen the toolset, but maybe someone can explain things better.
The woods offer different levels of Mighty to the bows they're used for.
The hides have specific bonuses.
Craft Trap Didn't mess with, but works similar to armor/weapons. Buy the mold throw in a smith's workshop and you get a trap.
Enchantingis the one thing I really love about the crafting here. Its character level and feat based. You have crafting feats of craft wondrous items and craft magical arms and armor. With craft magical arms and armor you can place any weapon or armor on a magician's workstation along with a required gem and one or two of the essences mentioned above. With all these in place a spell caster with the required feat casts the spell required and you have an enchanted item. (which you get to rename at this point) There are a mix of spells required, both divine and arcane. Mostly low level- to add a weapon enchantment of +5 to any weapon in game you need a blue diamond, and two essences. Then your enchanter casts Light. Yes... the cantrip, light. However, it only works if the caster has a caster level of at least 15. (Pretty sure its caster level, not character level. So a multiclass with fighter level 19 and wizard level 1 couldn't do it.) You can cast up to three enchantments on each item. (My ending weapon was a cold iron greatsword with +5 enchantment, +2d6 positive damage to evil, and vampiric regeneration +5. And there are gobs more enchantment options to choose from.
Craft wondrous item is similar in requirements but used for cloaks, belts, boots and so forth. You place either some leather, and/or iron on the workplace along with gem and essences, cast the spell and you've got a hugely overpowered magic item.
I don't know how this would translate into a crafting based skill like we have in Vives now. And in any case, the recipes and enchantments given would need to be heavily altered. I do like this overall setup though.
For enchanting crafter levels.. while keeping some of the ideas system you could have the essences become an enchanter craftable. A lower enchanter might not be able to work the most basic functional enchantments, and so works on attaining a store of essences. Or sells them off to higher level enchanters that don't work to bother with the busy work.
The essences work on a scale as well- Faint, weak, glowing, and radiant. Working up to the radiant essences could be enough to train up to making jewelry or whatnot, and ending up being able to work high level enchantments on weapons and armor.
The gems high level gems currently ingame are; diamond, emerald, star sapphire, canary diamond, blue diamond, beljuril, rogue stone, jancinth, and king's tear.
-- I really like some of renter's idea and I'll follow up on them in another post later... I'll try to keep it a touch shorter then my last couple. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 07:49 PM |
What about alloys? In PnP the 'Silver' weapons used to fight lycanthropes and devils is actually a silver alloy (referred to as alchemical silver) rather than pure silver. Similarly the 'iron' used against fey and demons is actually as substance referred to as 'cold iron' and is a special kind of iron with a lower melting point that is more powerful against these creatures when it is worked at low temperatures.
In this way a gold neckles or a gold alloy sword could provide bonuses against some other creature.
Fantasy metals, sure! Call it anything you want.
I like the idea of alloying different metals to make something usable. It makes things a little more complicated and ups the challenge. Maybe ups the cooperation on crafting too. |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 10:03 PM |
The alloy idea Renter suggested is brilliant. I really like the idea of having to work up to the better metals. Smithing always seemed a bit too simple. But starting with a base of iron, and then working in whatever additive needed for the results your after seems to have the right kick to it. The difference I'd put forward is that while iron would be the basic start for any weapon and armor you'd still need more rare materials to progress into certain directions. If it all comes from iron, charcoal, and nickel then all you need for the majority of work is high skill. By requiring a few "fantasy" metals, you still have a challenge to retrieve some of the ingredients. Again, similar to the woodworking skill as it is now.
The process I would envision goes something like this:
Mine for iron. Process iron.
Mine for "insert fantasy metal here". Process fantasy metal.
Process alloy by combining processed metals.
Continue on to metal working or Refine processed alloy.
(Here you have workable metal. But by refining it further, with massive amounts of skill you can gain more powerful results.)
Work Metal.
Take to partner for enchanting.
Kill things.
The idea of refining the original work comes to mind because the work of a skilled smith should be better then an unskilled smith even if they're both working with the same material. You just need twice as much material to refine it.
I've been giving some thought to what sort of bonuses would be appropriate for smithing - pre enchantment and a few things stuck out. I'm going to throw out some numbers just to show the difference between the different metals and the refinement thereof. And regarding the damage extras anything shown as physical is assumed to be corresponding to the weapon's base damage type. Also, this is assuming enchantment will be possible beyond these listings.
Weapons:
Iron- Massive criticals 3, Physical damage +1d4
Refined- Massive criticals 4, Physical damage +1d4
Masterwork- Massive criticals 5, Physical damage +1d6
Darksteel- Skill bonus hide +3, Physical damage +1d4
Refined- Hide +4, damage +1d4
Masterwork- Hide +5, damage +1d6
Cold Iron- Concentration +3, Massive criticals 1d4, on hit stun 5% DC 14
Refined- Concentration +4, Massive criticals 1d4, on hit stun 10% DC 14
Masterwork- Concentration +5, Massive criticals 1d6, on hit stun 15% DC 14
Alchemical Silver- Positive damage vs Undead 1d4, shapeshifters 1d6
Refined- Undead 1d6, shapeshifters 1d8
Masterwork- Undead 1d8, shapeshifters 2d4
Mithril- Weight reduction 60%, Keen, Physical damage +1d4
Refined- Weight reduction 60%, Keen, Physical damage +1d6, Charisma bonus +1
Masterwork- Weight reduction 60%, Keen, Physical damage +1d6, Charisma bonus +2
Adamantium- Physical damage +2, Massive criticals 1d4, on hit stun 5% DC 20, intimidate +3
Refined- Physical damage +3, Massive criticals 1d6, on hit stun 10% DC 20, intimidate +4
Masterwork- Physical damage +4, Massive criticals 2d4, on hit stun 15% DC 20, intimidate +5
As I'm sure you can see most of these weapons are very similar however at the same time they each have their own specialty and hold differing uses for differing characters. By going this route it means that even if every last person in the game could gain a masterwork adamantium blade, doesn't mean they would.
If you add a master enchanter to this process you could come up with a weapon along the lines of...
Enchantment +3
Physical damage +4
Massive criticals +2d4
on hit stun 15%
intimidate +5
vampiric regeneration +1
Of course to get this weapon you had to fight through hordes of cannibalistic berserker gnomes for the ore, and face off against a lich and it's minions for the gem it carries. Then you had to convince a master smith and a master enchanter both to work on it for you. So while a weapon this powerful stands out in a low magic world, I think the ability to gain it is epic enough in its own right to make something like this viable. And please! I know I said I wasn't going to throw up numbers to due balancing and the like, so before you decide to bash me for being a powergamer or whatnot.... remember these are just to show the viability of different weapons, and the different levels of each.
The crafting stations... For the most part they are sort of silly, but setting up your own forge in the middle of the Midor mountains ... or the middle of Port Royale just seems so much worse to me. There are some horrible parts right now in Vives in regards to this, the most glaring example being anvils without a forge next to them. I mean seriously - Talion might have titanic strength but beating cold metal into a perfectly forged weapon? In the limitations of the game balancing - crafting centers seem like the best idea. Not the Trading Post, which has nearly every table next to each other. But open centers devoted to different crafts, perhaps even going so far as paying to become a member. You could do like the rental rooms right now and buy month long memberships to whatever crafting hall you wish to belong. Or have it as a lifetime membership if scripting is a bother. Someone buys their membership, gets a key and a free set of tools for their craft! I could see Gladden with a metal worker's guild from the times back when the hills were traversable. The Icy Vale could have a hunters lodge with tanning equipment. That sort of thing.
*Sighs as he finishes up another essay when he said he'd keep it short* |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 21 Jul 2008 10:18 PM |
On the subject of crafting "stations".
Why not have guilds, and I don't mean player run, like in one town have a smiths guild, pc crafter comes along and maybe does a little work for the guild, gets in good with them, then pays dues similar to paying to rent a room, or perhaps a portion of the raw materials you gather, or some of your finished works, for the privilege of utilizing their facilities.
There can be merchants who sell tools, perhaps give lessons in the particular trade for those just starting off, tips on where to find raw materials, and even special privileges and assignments for highly skilled craftsmen in each profession? Want to use the only forge in the guild that's fit for making fancy fantasy metal armor? Well, best pay extra, or prove you can use it without destroying the equipment. That sort of thing. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 22 Jul 2008 01:58 AM |
On the subject of crafting "stations".
Why not have guilds, and I don't mean player run, like in one town have a smiths guild, pc crafter comes along and maybe does a little work for the guild, gets in good with them, then pays dues similar to paying to rent a room, or perhaps a portion of the raw materials you gather, or some of your finished works, for the privilege of utilizing their facilities.
There can be merchants who sell tools, perhaps give lessons in the particular trade for those just starting off, tips on where to find raw materials, and even special privileges and assignments for highly skilled craftsmen in each profession? Want to use the only forge in the guild that's fit for making fancy fantasy metal armor? Well, best pay extra, or prove you can use it without destroying the equipment. That sort of thing.
*laughs* Copycat. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 22 Jul 2008 02:13 AM |
| Whoops, guess I should read the whole essay before replying. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 22 Jul 2008 07:52 AM |
Weapons:
Iron- Massive criticals 3, Physical damage +1d4
Refined- Massive criticals 4, Physical damage +1d4
Masterwork- Massive criticals 5, Physical damage +1d6
Darksteel- Skill bonus hide +3, Physical damage +1d4
Refined- Hide +4, damage +1d4
Masterwork- Hide +5, damage +1d6
Cold Iron- Concentration +3, Massive criticals 1d4, on hit stun 5% DC 14
Refined- Concentration +4, Massive criticals 1d4, on hit stun 10% DC 14
Masterwork- Concentration +5, Massive criticals 1d6, on hit stun 15% DC 14
Alchemical Silver- Positive damage vs Undead 1d4, shapeshifters 1d6
Refined- Undead 1d6, shapeshifters 1d8
Masterwork- Undead 1d8, shapeshifters 2d4
Mithril- Weight reduction 60%, Keen, Physical damage +1d4
Refined- Weight reduction 60%, Keen, Physical damage +1d6, Charisma bonus +1
Masterwork- Weight reduction 60%, Keen, Physical damage +1d6, Charisma bonus +2
Adamantium- Physical damage +2, Massive criticals 1d4, on hit stun 5% DC 20, intimidate +3
Refined- Physical damage +3, Massive criticals 1d6, on hit stun 10% DC 20, intimidate +4
Masterwork- Physical damage +4, Massive criticals 2d4, on hit stun 15% DC 20, intimidate +5
This strikes me as very heavy handed. I would suggest a list more along these lines.
Iron (or rather steel)
Standard- no benefits (as in PnP it's just a normal sword, axe or whatever just as you would find as random treasure.)
Masterwork- +1 attack bonus (also as in PnP it's better than a normal sword, but most of the time it makes little difference.)
Grandmasterwork- +1 attack bonus. (there isn't anything else that can be done with steel)
Darksteel
As steel but-
Standard- bypasses damage reduction of 'light' creatures such as will-o-wisps and prismatic dragons.
Masterwork- bypasses damage reduction and +D6 damage (of the same type as the weapon normally deals) against 'light' creatures.
Grandmasterwork- bypasses damage reduction and +2D6 damage against light creatures.
Cold Iron
As steel but-
Standard- bypasses damage reduction of fey and demons.
Masterwork- bypasses damage reduction and +D6 damage against fey and demons. On hit stun 1 round DC 10 will negates.
Grandmasterwork- (is too soft to take such a sharp edge). bypasses damage reduction and +2D6 damage against fey and demons. On hit stun 1 round DC 15 will negates.
(This would make Cold iron useful for rogues as these are often weak against fighters and similar melle specialists)
Alchemical Silver
As steel but-
Standard- bypasses damage reduction of shape shifters and undead.
Masterwork- bypasses damage reduction and +1D6 damage against shape shifters and undead.
Grandmasterwork- bypasses damage reduction and +2D6 damage against shape shifters and undead.
Mythril
As steel but-
Standard- -60% weight reduction +1 dodge bonus to AC.
Masterwork- -60% weight reduction +2 dodge bonus to AC.
Grandmasterwork- -60% weight reduction +3 dodge bonus to AC.
(this would make Mythril particularly useful useful to spellcasters and other lightly armored builds and as a consequence to elves and halfings)
Adamantine
As steel but-
Standard- Does not exist.
Masterwork- Bypasses damage reduction of constructs and that conferred by wearing adamantine armor. Masive criticals +2
Grand Masterwork- Bypasses damage reduction of constructs and that conferred by wearing adamantine armor. Masive criticals +3
(This would make Adamantine the choice of high level fighters particularly those with the improved critical feat)
Obviously Grandmasterwork weapons should only be available to characters c level 15+
I have not completely thought through the full consequences of each weapon ability, but this seems more sensible. After all it is the warrior not his weapon that should make the most difference.
With regard to gemstones: Perhaps when set in a ring they could provide spellcasters with bonuses to save DC and/or caster level checks in specific schools of magic or when casting specific spells. This would give necromancers (for example) a reason to ware sinister amethyst jewelry. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 22 Jul 2008 11:24 PM |
This strikes me as very heavy handed. I would suggest a list more along these lines.
As I said before, any numbers I've offered are only to set an example of what could be done to make the different craftable items useful even if "higher" quality metals are obtainable.
I have given some thought to enchanting items, because the merging of steel and magic has always seemed a staple of D&D, and so to in Vives.
In NWN2 the ability to add up to three enchantments on any item really offered the chance to have personalized gear. It wasn't about finding the best piece, I felt, rather deciding what is right for you. That personalization is something I would love to see in Vives 2. After giving it some thought, I believe two enchantments rather then three might be more appropriate given the desire for a lower magic world.
The implementation for this that I envision would start with recipes. Rather then knowing exactly what you need for anything you want just by tossing something random onto a work bench, here you have to obtain a recipe beforehand. The local centers of magic and learning could have some basic recipes for sale to start an individual out. Something like +1, +2 base enchantments. Maybe the lowest level elemental damage bonuses. The more rare enchantments might be gained by assaulting the towers or realms of the "evil" wizards in the land. High end areas that could have a random recipe drop after beating the local mage lord.
For the highest end enchantments these could even serve as epic spells do now, dm granted.
From gaining the various recipes you move on to the material components called for. I've said before that I enjoy the new NWN concept for this dealing with "essences". Gathering essences could involved both alchemy and enchanting for balancing if needed, or just be pure enchantment skill based. These can be gained from defeating various element based monsters then combining with various alchemical substances. -Gem dusts, holy water, even metal shavings or the like. Once gathered these components are mixed and prepared by the enchanter to lesser and greater degrees, dependent on recipe requirements. The various levels of essence could be producible either by the difficulty of the monster, or by combining lesser levels. The more difficult monsters would require less enchanting skill whereas combining lesser essences would prove considerably more difficult skill wise.
A gem of varying quality would be required to finish the recipe and would have need to be prepared for use as well, by the enchanter and/or gem worker.
Throughout this process the enchanter crafting level is brought into play to prepare the ingredients for the end work.
With the recipe and the material components gathered they are placed with the item to be enchanted along with the recipe on an alter and the proper spell is cast over it. If unsuccessful the essences are lost but the gem and item remain.
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Having given some thought to limited crafting mastership. I do like this idea, as it forces people to work together. Perhaps limiting a character to being about to master one or two crafts offers the chance to work towards something successfully. - Smelter/Weaponcrafter. Enchanter/Gemworker. But still have to rely on others for the most powerful works. |
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Re: Nwn 2 Crafting?
Posted: 23 Jul 2008 06:55 AM |
This sounds great. There are only two things here I would question:
The first is the idea of casting as spell in order to enchant an item. In principle this makes sense, but it can give rise to all sorts of oddities.
For example: A druid wants to enchant a weapon to deal fire damage. This enchantment requires the first level spell burning hands this isn't on the druid spell list so the druid can't enchant the item, even though he can cast other more powerful fire spells.
Even if the spell is on a character's spell list, there is no guarantee that the character will have the spell. Sorcerers don't know many spells and this system would make them much worse enchanters than wizards. This sort of thing posses all sorts of problems. They are present in PnP as well, but in this case the DM can usually help you out (perhaps by allowing you to hire a wizard).
One alternative to this would be to say that no spells need be cast to enchant an item. This allow characters of any class to enchant items, but this could be a little counter-intuitive. One way this might be achieved is to have a substance that is essentially as lump of solid magic which would be incorporated into the crafting process.
The approach that I think should be taken is to change the way that scrolls work to make them easier to use. I would suggest allowing any spellcaster to use any scroll of a level that he can cast himself (radical I know) and to allow the use magic devise skill to be used to cast scrolls relatively easily (as in PnP).
The other point is the last paragraph. Again, it seems heavy handed. I agree that teamwork should be rewarded in crafting (and in other activities), but I think that this particular change would be a mistake.
It has always seemed to me that the 'weakness' of Vives is that it limits the options available to anyone playing on their own (quite appart from the xp issue, which is now a thouraly pulverised dead horse). I am not denying that this has its advantages: it encourages teamwork and, as a consequence roll play, it creates a real sense of danger and it discourages PvP. However it also discourages people from logging in.
Many builds if they log in on their own and go adventuring are likely to get killed. As a result, they log in when there are other people in game, which is vicious circle. This is not the place (if indeed there is a place) for me to go into how I think combat areas should be arranged, but suffice to say I think that the last thing Vives needs is for there to be less for lone characters to do.
Perhaps it would be better to allow several characters to work at once on a single crafting check, to decrease the chance of them failing (think the scene in the LOTR film where the two elves are working together to reforge Narsil)
PS. If several enchantments are to be placed on a single item, this should be more costly and/or more difficult than enchanting several items with a single enchantment. |
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." - Donal O' Shea: The Poincaré Conjecture. |
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