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Let me reiterate...
Posted: 06 Apr 2007 03:05 AM |
how much I HATE ALIGNMENTS.
As a concept in any RPG I work around them as best I can because they are so paper-thin and meaningless when extended the smallest amount they hold no reliable value.
And the alignment tracker on Vives does a pretty good representational job of shepherding the diaphenous concepts, EXCEPT WHEN IT WORKS AGAINST ME
So, no, this isn't a reasonable post (and mostly I'm just angry at myself) and I just wanted to take this opportunity to throw a brick through the window of RPGs and their much loved need to pigeonhole characters to any personality system. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Let me reiterate...
Posted: 06 Apr 2007 03:31 AM |
Care to explain what brought on this outburst?
I dispise the alignment system myself, as much as any other part of the DnD character generation aspect. Morality can't be defined solely by concepts of Good, Evil, Law and Chaos. Because the alignment system is so absurd, I do my best to ignore it as much as possible for character behaviour.
Go preach Vidus Khain that he's evil... |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Let me reiterate...
Posted: 06 Apr 2007 04:31 AM |
I tend to ignore it to, and that strategy worked against me. I play my character as who I imagine he is and make choices based on a developing ethos. I have no problem with a "kender-like" acquisition strategy and use it often, usually not even being sneaky...I even treat it almost like a philosophy of life.
But I did it when I was partied with some people, and it's so second nature I didn't even think about the effect, and they got hit for it. This is where the game breaks the character because, honestly, I wouldn't have done it if I considered the alignment shift to party members because it's a meta-effect. It's fine if I screw up my character, but I don't enjoy ruining other peoples' games or characters. I'm not the first, I'm sure I won't be the last; I'm just annoyed and wanted to vent. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Let me reiterate...
Posted: 06 Apr 2007 07:51 AM |
I kind of like alignment and while playing it definitely matters to me. I know who my characters are (usually) but thinking about the alignment I chose for them helps me to remember who they are while I'm playing. Maybe its a coincidence, but for instance Salt's alliances and emnities sort out pretty tidily along the alignment chart in Vives. At least, as far as he's been able to discern other people's alignments. And really its just one or two orientations that he's always watching out for.
Vives has done an especially good job making good and evil appear "real", can't have one without the other, and really in that environment I appreciate the differences between characters whatever pigeonhole they happen to be in. There's lots of ambiguity in Vives - which is delicious - but I don't think you could argue that good and evil, or law and chaos are a matter of perspective here.
Coupla other tings, I've hit other people's alignments when they were partied with me and I don't think anyone should get personally upset or surprised when it happens. Its a good roleplaying op. I don't "own" my characters or have absolute control over what happens to them. The DMs own a big chunk. You other players own a part of them too, and if you or the DMs take steps that twist them around, well that happens.
Lastly, regarding pigeonholes, alignment's a sliding scale, isn't it? |
"What are you talking about?"
"I'm talking about dying."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means lying in the ground with dirt on your face and holding your breath forever."
-Burt Reynolds, "The End" |
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Re: Let me reiterate...
Posted: 06 Apr 2007 12:57 PM |
I 100% agree with Renter on this point. Alignment, for me, is the foundation around which my characters act. Without it, we can justify nearly every action our characters take as being IC, because we're just amoral. My two cents.
Also, please read the MUST READ GUIDELINES. I think they sit under ESSENTIAL INFORMATION for a reason. PDW's post on alignment shifts reads as follows:
Your alignment can be shifted by the actions of those you party up with in game. Your alignment is affected even if you are across the other side of Vives when a companion acts in a various ways that you possibly wouldn't, resulting in an alignment shift. This means that you need to be careful who you adventure with!
Your choice of companions reflects both positively and negatively on your character so think about that if you choose to remain partied with them.
If your alignment has changed significantly as a result of the above, consistent RP of your desired alignment will earn DM attention to get small shifts back to the alignment you require. It doesn't do any harm to PM the DMs to let them know that you are RPing your alignment and would like a few nudges in the right direction.
I have unpartied more times than I can count when I've seen characters I was partied with approach chests, armoires, doors, etc. in a private home or businesses. And I think quite a few people have had arguments with Emma about courses of action that she considered evil/against the law. It is clear that the onus here is on the alignment 'shiftee' to avoid being partied with the 'shifter'.
And my game wasn't spoiled by having my alignment shifted one point toward chaotic, if you don't mind me mentioning the situation, Timik. Nor, I presume, was Rodon's. But I think it was fair for both characters to notice something wasn't right when Timik walked out of the Inn. Both of us did wisdom checks, both of us rolled over 20, Timik briefly owned up to what he'd done, and then we booted him from the party and left. -I- think this is good rp and I think this is consequences for actions. Consequences to us for traveling with someone who doesn't accept that theft (even of a bit of stew) is wrong, and consequences to Timik in that he has lost a bit of trust of those two monks.
One of the things I've come to appreciate in Vives is that actions have consequences, both subtle and billboard-esque. |
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Re: Let me reiterate...
Posted: 06 Apr 2007 02:25 PM |
Yeah, Alignment the way it's played in Vives can be tough, but in a very interesting way. Johe's alignment got shifted by the DM's a while back (actually after a post I wrote in The Return of the Guyver wich apparently disturbed Barnas ) I never agreed with the shift, and actually worked as hard as I could to change it, to show the DM's by my actions that I wasn't the alignment they had made me. It was a frustrating journey. First because they didn't seem to notice, but after a while it became frustrating, because the actions that Johe found himself doing WERE the alignment that had been bestowed on him. Preconcieved notions of oneself can cloud how one percieves ones self, but an outsider, (in this type of situation), sees you clearer than you ever could, and can hand you the reality you deny I still aim at Johe one day dying the alignment he started with, but where he is now shows the inner battle he has been going through for years, and I thank the DM's for perpetuating that battle. it makes things awfully interesting :) |
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Re: Let me reiterate...
Posted: 06 Apr 2007 04:07 PM |
At best, I believe the alignment chart to be a model for the DM to assess relationships of PCs and NPCs. IMC, I tell my players to ignore alignment and let their reputations and actions stand for themselves. I also throw out alignment restrictions for classes because there are always perspectival or situational factors that cause conflicts with the philosophical natures of alignments themselves. It really isn't a free-for-all justification cop out; issues that alignments dredge up are ones that we still have major difficulty with today in RL. I think Johe's point about outsiders being able to see the matter clearer is very apropos, which is part of the reason why I refute the idea that PCs actually have control over what their alignment is. Many LG players I've known over the years I would say were treading the fine line toward LE; when does 'righteous vindication' cross over into 'thy will be done, master'?
And please, please, please, I beg of you, don't admonish me to read the ESSENTIAL INFORMATION thread because I have many times and understand it, and whether I agree with it or not, I respect and play by it; and I have heard of other situations where this has come into play before, so I am well familiar. As I stated before, the error was a lapse in consideration of the net results of the act, which I realized immediately when I saw the green letters "What the HELL..." appear in the lower left of my screen. I would have behaved completely OOC and not done the aforementioned deed if I was paying attention to the damage I would cause in conjunction because I respect both of you as players and would choose not to inflict lasting harm on your characters and in addition, I wanted to have a good time, too, which trashing your alignment I knew wouldn't have been a great way to start the evening. I'm glad that you both are fine with the situation (it alleviates some of the sting) but at the same time, I came on to have fun interacting with a couple of PLAYERS I enjoy hanging out with and ended up getting shunted to wander around aimlessly "crying in my beer." Roleplaying, absolutely (in a way almost perfect by its nature); fun, no. And I'm owning the mistake and moving on.
And thanks to everyone who read my rant and wanted to share their views. It has given me some perspective on it in some ways I didn't initially consider. I suppose that's why we have the "Flames" forum. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Let me reiterate...
Posted: 06 Apr 2007 09:25 PM |
I've only hit someone with an alignment shift once... and then later found out that they didn't have all the information required to make an "informed" decision about the situation.. and so didn't deserve the shift.
Now I don't touch alignment.. ever. The only thing I personally think they are good for.. from a DM perspective, is to see what the player thinks their characters alignment is, and how they aim to play them. [Edit: and now I see thats rather like what T'mok just said]
It can mean the difference between a character with a good alignment going along with other PCs and lending a helping hand because they genuinely want to see them do well/succeed... and an evil character going along with other PCs and lending a helping hand because they just want to ingratiate themselves with the PCs in question.. so that they can possibly throw a wrench in their plans at some future date, when it will cause the most pain and suffering..
One problem with this is that there are things scripted into the game world that will change your alignment, or DMs who might give shifts because to them, it seems the PC deserves it, (but there certainly has to be times when the PC doesn't deserve it) ...and these can change a PCs alignment from what the player originally set it too.. or wants to play them as.
I think if it were up to -me-, I would do away with any scripted event /conversation /quest giving out alignment shifts... since the true motivations behind an action can be very complex and certainly has the possibility of not being perceived by others correctly.
And then there is Johes comment, about how sometimes others can see it more clearly for what it is.. which at times is also true. I suppose that is the difference between misguided evil/good, and deliberate evil/good. doing something because you know it to be good ..or evil, or doing something because you believe it to be, when unbeknownst to you, it is the opposite.
Yeah.. I don't touch alignments any more. And definitely support the "send a message to all DMs if you are playing your character a certain way and would like it to be noticed and shifted accordingly" thing. |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: Let me reiterate...
Posted: 07 Apr 2007 08:47 AM |
The only problems I see with alignment shifts is when it effects alignment-specific classes.
It is my opinion that when a DM might want to shift a PC's alignment when the PC has an alignment-specific class the said DM should consider extra carefully if that alignment shift is really deserved. I've not witnessed a lot of cases of alignment shifts, so I don't know how often this can become a problem, but for alignment-specific classes, straying from that alignment means that that character is no longer capable of doing his work as per that class. As far as I've witnessed, alignment shifts that come from DMs don't come often and based on few and far-between events - which hardly reflects a character's overall nature even when comulated.
Changing a character alignment over comulative uncharacteristic actions and then having that PC send a message to all DMs to notice how he plays his character seems pointless to me - if alignment shifts are is that if they're not done full-heartedly, then they shouldn't be done at all. Shifting a character's alignment based on just a handful of uncharacteristic actions by their part is just doing things half-a$$ed and doesn't serve any purpose - I doubt the player needs to be informed his character strayed from his usual alignment/behaviour. If an alignment is gonna be shifted, it should be shifted constantly and based on most if the moral decisions the DM witnesses a PC make, not just those handful. Frankly, I think it's a waste of time to do that, and alignments should be left alone for the most part.
For myself, I pick the alignment that I find vaguely appropriate for my character and leave it alone from there on - it works to give the DMs a basic idea of who your character is and it works to restrict some classes who are based on certain alignments to those specific alignments (we don't want neutral paladins, chaotic monks, neutral blackguards [beigeguard?] and such wandering around). No matter how much alignment shifting that character would suffer it wouldn't change how I play her, unless there's a specific reason for it (something crazy and improbable like turning Alton into a soul-murdering, gnome-targetting, half-creeper maniac). |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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