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Magic.
Posted: 26 Mar 2007 07:27 PM |
Longish Version
*A typical youngster fight in Vives."
Kid A : Hey stink face! I hear you stink!
Kid B : Yeah, well I hear you smell worse.
Kid A : Not uh!
Kid B : Yah Huh!
Kid A : Oh yeah!? *Summons a Balor.*
Kid B : So! *Adorns Plus five armor of smiting that he bought from a guy in the slums of Port Royale.*
*An epic battle on any normal school yard begins, no one really cares... Because this is the sort of thing that happens everyday.*
With so many Epics around, anyone else notice how their is no such thing as mundane anymore? If its a quest, it involves the greatest demons of the underworld, if its a store, it has all magic armor. If its another character, he can shoot fireballs of hell exploding.
Anyone else notice it? Or is it just me?
Short Version
Tone magic down a bit. |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 26 Mar 2007 07:38 PM |
| Well I'd say if'n ya finds any +5 armor i'd sure like it, but tha swirling mists would take it away *sighs* Tha way I sees it Monty Hall died years ago, an' took all me nice gear away *sniffs* It don' git much reeler 'n this fella *grins* well as reel as a game like this could be at leest. |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 26 Mar 2007 07:45 PM |
| Not plus five armor. But the man in the burned out section of Port Royale, would have a hard time explaining why he has a full stock of Enchanted Flameberges |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 26 Mar 2007 11:31 PM |
Well, I can understand some frustration in coming to Vives and not getting what you expect. But I got two things to say about your comments.
1) Although I somewhat agree with you, you grossly overstated your point. Vives' magic level does not even remotely resemble the case you presented.
2) There are some very good reasons why Vives exhibits a higher magic level now than it has in the past. Its an old world. There are some major events going down. And as we transition to Vives 2, I suppose a couple lids might have slipped off on Vives 1.
This PW is one of the longest running, and thus has some epic characters. It takes a longtime here to get an epic character. I've been here over a year and never gotten a character past level 14. And that character's best equipment (heal potions) all came from crafting.
If you want a low magic world, I highly suggest that you stick around. Vives 2 is in the works, and from what I have heard so far, it will have a much more down to earth level of gear.
And ofcourse the writing and RP are peerless! |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 27 Mar 2007 12:19 AM |
| Well said Hene |
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time."
- Steven Wright |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 27 Mar 2007 05:15 AM |
Also, overtime, some better items do slip into game. Some of these items end up in the merchants.
For V2, I'm aiming for a more "Thain" level of magic item availability (for those who know what that means)
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 27 Mar 2007 07:04 PM |
Well, don't get me wrong. I love Vives.
I just sometimes find it hard to Role-Play any kind of non magical character when it is compeletly normal to see, dragons just outside the gates of buckshire, fiery swords of killingtude and such.
I mean, what is my character suppossed to say to that?
PS
I have seen a dragon just outside of Buckshire, everyone just sorta accepted it. Probably was Balthor. |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 27 Mar 2007 07:13 PM |
PS
I have seen a dragon just outside of Buckshire, everyone just sorta accepted it. Probably was Balthor.
The Eunuch is a nut, no pun intended. Everyone knows that!
This is what would fall under the category irresponsible use of magic by spellcasters. *shrugs* It happens and those who know Balthor are no longer surprised. Then again, that doesn't prevent a character from running away or at least asking everyone why -they- aren't running away. Just my 2 cp. |
Luther McIath: I see, so [X is] the right person in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.
[Fictrix] ... And can speak French, like both! Wait, I mean Elven. |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 27 Mar 2007 07:16 PM |
| If I remember, my character pissed his pants and hid in a corner. My character was not a coward either. |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 27 Mar 2007 07:20 PM |
Well, don't get me wrong. I love Vives.
I just sometimes find it hard to Role-Play any kind of non magical character when it is compeletly normal to see, dragons just outside the gates of buckshire, fiery swords of killingtude and such.
I mean, what is my character suppossed to say to that?
PS
I have seen a dragon just outside of Buckshire, everyone just sorta accepted it. Probably was Balthor.
Ok, maybe I read this post wrong, but are you saying there should be less magic so you can better play a character that doesn't believe in magic? |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 27 Mar 2007 07:43 PM |
Not so much... Like... The mystery and evil of Carfax is lost because... Well, who cares? Everyone has seen a hundred ghosts.
Clearing giant beetles from a cave? Done it before.
Spooky Blood Woods? Lame!
All I am saying, its a little odd that so many super magical things occur so close to civilization. LIke... If carfax was moved deep into the woods, a bandit camp between the two. So it was like an expedition to get there.
I don't know...
I think I may have lost my point at some... Point. |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 27 Mar 2007 08:47 PM |
| Rjderouin is right, I don't much like the level of magic in Vives either. It'll be cool to see it toned down for Vives 2. That's one of the good things of sticking with a PW moving to NWN2, that they know what works and what doesn't when the rebuild for the next game. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 27 Mar 2007 10:24 PM |
At some point, PCs do gain power, especially spellcasters.
The ability to throw around massively impressive magics at the drop of the hat is very difficult to avoid.
As DMs, the best we can do is to respond - e.g. you come in with your rebuked undead following you, dont be surprised if the guards get alarmed and attack you witih burning clubs. However, given that the DMs cannot be around all the time, or that we cannot script in reactions based on every eventuality the PCs may do, then things like a mage turning into a dragon and walking around town can and does happen.
This will continue to be a problem for Vives2. Imagine a warlock who can turn himself into a cool looking demon form. How do you handle that when the DMs are not around?
In situations like that, it is really up to the PCs to handle their reactions appropriately for their characters.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 27 Mar 2007 11:11 PM |
| Yeah, I think I'd be a little annoyed if the builders took out too many magical items for V2 for the very thing that PD just mentioned. It's important to keep balance, if wizards can blow up a small building while a warrior walks around with his +1 sticker next thing you know no one wants to be a warrior. and blooey the balance is gone. My vote? keep the balance and live with the magic in the stores. Look at it this way, in a world full of +3 flame tongues wouldn't it stand to reason that the +1 junk would land up in the slums? Supply and demand baby :) |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 10:54 AM |
Yeah, I think I'd be a little annoyed if the builders took out too many magical items for V2 for the very thing that PD just mentioned. It's important to keep balance, if wizards can blow up a small building while a warrior walks around with his +1 sticker next thing you know no one wants to be a warrior. and blooey the balance is gone. My vote? keep the balance and live with the magic in the stores. Look at it this way, in a world full of +3 flame tongues wouldn't it stand to reason that the +1 junk would land up in the slums? Supply and demand baby :)
We don't have this problem on Thain. I thought most people choose classes based upon RP and a character idea rather than what's the most powerful. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 11:06 AM |
We don't have this problem on Thain.
Thain doesn't have persistent merchants, so anything sold into the merchants will eventually be removed from the economy over a server reset. It is a great way to remove items from the economy overall.
Maybe V2 shouldn't have persistent merchants? |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 11:09 AM |
| I like persistent merchants, but perhaps they could be adjusted slightly, maybe randomly remove a few of the items saved in the stores over reset to represent some random adventurer coming by and purchasing it? |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 11:18 AM |
Even at high levels I always prefer a good goblin bash over tangling with super-rare, difficult, and extra-planar creatures because I always question the viability of an environment where such intrinsic menaces exist around every corner. Making the primary foes simply humanoids gives a lot of flex for the level of threat (and therefore allows control of the required level of equipment) and keeps the "How in the Hell...?" factor down.
The point about mage supremacy, though, is well taken. Can spell levels be changed? Is it possible to change allowable spells at lower levels so they are mostly supportive and abjurative ie like bless, barkskin, bullstrength and crowd the offensive spells at the higher levels? It's not a suggestion; I simply don't know if the "black box" extends over this part of the code and I'm interested if that's the case. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 11:54 AM |
We don't have this problem on Thain.
Thain doesn't have persistent merchants, so anything sold into the merchants will eventually be removed from the economy over a server reset. It is a great way to remove items from the economy overall.
Maybe V2 shouldn't have persistent merchants?
The "problem" I was referring to was was Johe's comment that no one will want to play anything other than a cleric/wizard/sorcerer because there are no high magic swords like +3 with elemental damage and that's just not true.
Persistent merchants are kinda of a toss up. On one hand, you can save up for an item in a store over many days, but on the other hand it does keep a lot of the magic around.
One idea that we tossed around Thain as a way to deal with mage/cleric unbalancing was restricting spells:
For wizards, we'd disable learning spells on level up for spell level 6, 7, 8 and 9. These spells could then be researched or used as a regular drop or DM drop and eventually leading to each 9th level spell only being known my one character. I always loved the idea of seeing a spell and know that it was only /his or her/ spell.
The sorcerer would have an inherent spell failure on spell levels 6 and greater but with a token you could remove that failure. Each of those spell levels could be controlled by a DM. For example, you could still cast an 8th level spell, but it might come with a 60% chance of failure (with no token). If then you got your 7th level spell token, you chance of failure for 8th level spells might drop to 30%. This kinda makes sense when you think about how your body might react to trying to rip that spell power out.
As for cleric, it was never really decided what to do about them. Possibly the same thing as a sorcerer or even completely restrict a level of spell until a token was earned (DM drop) by doing something relating to the God/faith/whatever.
Unfortunately, this was never done (despite all the staff liking the idea) because it would be too much of a radical change on an existing PW. It requires more DM attention but it's one of the things that I think is a huge benefit. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 11:58 AM |
I like T'mok's idea about tinkering with Mage spells, but I also recognize that while it is probably a possibility the amount of work required for such an implementation would likely push Vives2 back a few years. Just from the stand point of playability, while preserving the player fun factor the dev's would have to go through a lot of trial and error and game ballance discussions to work out the progression of spells per spell level for every spell casting class.
And how fun is it to play a first level wizard who can't cast an offensive spell? I don't think it adds to the fun to restrict spell casters to a purely supportive role when they start out.
As far as goblin bashing goes. I am also in agreement with T'mok. I think simple humanoids like goblins should be much more diverse and superfluous than the big time supernatural nasties. While this is out for Vives1, I hold on to my hope for Vives2. All that said however, I like the supernatural aspect of vives, and while I'd like it if the non-magical beings were more common, for me this is mostly a means to make the special stuff that much more special. |
Famous last words:
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 12:12 PM |
The "problem" I was referring to was was Johe's comment that no one will want to play anything other than a cleric/wizard/sorcerer because there are no high magic swords like +3 with elemental damage and that's just not true.
Ah, right.
No, definately not true.
On the other hand, it does encourage builds around the best weapons that can be found IG (or it would for me - such as taking an exotic weapon feat so my PC could use a cursed bastard sword for a time :) |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 12:14 PM |
With NWN2, Obsidian (and as I'm getting used to them v3.5 of D&D) does a much better job of balancing classes. I personally don't see a need within NWN2 to start nerfing mage or spellcasters.
I can see Johe's point, and agree that balance is important. Sure people will (and should) choose a character/class based on a concept/roleplay reason, and not purely because they kick arse, but that doesn't mean the classes should be fairly balanced. After all, adventuring in a group is a lot more fun if every character has their own strengths and weaknesses.
As regards magic items/weapons..... my thoughts are that with enhancements they're not particularly "magical"... i.e. I see a +3 longsword as just a superior quality blade to that of a lesser enhanced weapon. Magical to me would imply flames and crap shooting out of it.
A large part of the "problem" with Vives, as is, is the persistent merchants. They're really the cause of the glut of magical items in stores. We can easily address this in Vives 2 though ;)
There'll likely be more of the humanoid thugs/critters/things to bash in Vives 2.... still be Goblins and other magical creatures mind you, it's D&D after all.
Good discussion and excellent ideas, one note however........ please when leaving feedback, do not grossly exaggerate. Things such as "compeletly normal to see, dragons just outside the gates of buckshire, fiery swords of killingtude and such." just piss me off to be honestIt's a little disrespectful.
Cheers
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 12:50 PM |
For wizards, we'd disable learning spells on level up for spell level 6, 7, 8 and 9. These spells could then be researched or used as a regular drop or DM drop and eventually leading to each 9th level spell only being known my one character. I always loved the idea of seeing a spell and know that it was only /his or her/ spell.
Interesting idea. In fact I think for a PW, this works very very well, and could possibly be implemented earlier than for spell level 6. Probably by spell level 3 or 4. Or better yet... base this on over all character level, so that a fighter 10 who multiclasses to wizard doesn't gain any spells until they "research" by buying scrolls or spending time in a scripted wizard library or taking lessons from another player or spending time in some DM facilitated learning experience. Basically players spend A LOT of time on line in Vives, and so Wizards have the time to spend acquiring spells. And since that is what a scholarly wizard does, it makes perfect sense to me.
The sorcerer would have an inherent spell failure on spell levels 6 and greater but with a token you could remove that failure. Each of those spell levels could be controlled by a DM. For example, you could still cast an 8th level spell, but it might come with a 60% chance of failure (with no token). If then you got your 7th level spell token, you chance of failure for 8th level spells might drop to 30%. This kinda makes sense when you think about how your body might react to trying to rip that spell power out.
Not necessarily into this mechanic. I think spell acquisition for sorcerors should be more directly linked to sorceror lore. Sorcerors should have this advantage over wizards --- but see my ideas for cleric below with regards to what spells a sorceror has access to choose upon level up.
As for cleric, it was never really decided what to do about them. Possibly the same thing as a sorcerer or even completely restrict a level of spell until a token was earned (DM drop) by doing something relating to the God/faith/whatever.
I am unsure how this would work in NWN but in playing PnP I had to solve a similar problem. In PnP players have access to a million supplements, and as a DM I just could not bother to keep track of it all. At the same time however, I didn't want to say no to everything the players wanted. So I decided to divide all spells for all classes into common and special.
Common spells were what the players could expect to find in any library, or were part of their religious practice/training/tradition, etc.... I made up common spell lists for each class that required no DM oversight to use upon level up. Additional spells had to be added on a case by case basis.
Special Spells were restricted lore, and I worked this out behind the scenes. In essence since I was always IG so to speak everything involved the DM giving the spell to the player. In Vives2 I imagine special spells could be available through purchased or found scrolls. Scripted portions of the PW could probably also hand out special spells - perhaps a quest or a temple/library that handles generic research with a script or even a few hard to find magical beings that are able to impart magical knowledge (and aren't always in the same place?). And for the rest DM's would have a list of spells available at various locations/schools/temples to guide handing out of special spells. |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 01:11 PM |
Thain doesn't have persistent merchants, so anything sold into the merchants will eventually be removed from the economy over a server reset. It is a great way to remove items from the economy overall.
Maybe V2 shouldn't have persistent merchants?
A large part of the "problem" with Vives, as is, is the persistent merchants. They're really the cause of the glut of magical items in stores. We can easily address this in Vives 2 though ;)
One of the things that has always bugged -me- about the merchants, is the fact that they fill up with a ton of the "crap" enchanted items.. that either a) everyone already has, so on one wants to buy, thus they sit in the store taking up space... or b) nobody wants because it is just a completely *@$% item, and there are 50 versions of the same item with better enchantments on it that everyone uses.
Is it possible to make the merchants auto delete any duplicate items?
on a semi related note...
I liked how there have been Vives specific items created by the DM team that were tied into specific lore, and had some bonuses and some penalties.. but for the most part, I don't think many, (if any) actually get used.. why? because there are still plenty of stock game items that have the same bonuses without the penalties.. so why would I want to use the one that gives penalties?
For this to be done ...right? better?.. I think you would have to remove the stock ones from rotation. Or better yet, make the ones that grant a bonus and a penalty, grant a better bonus than the normal ones.
for example..
say there was a sword that is tied to specific Vives lore about an ancient race of Troll hunters, and it was set up to give a +3 to hit, and 1d6 fire, while giving a -2 to AC (because the flame comming off it is so hot, it requires that you hold it out away from your body so as not to burn yourself.. but leaving you more vulnerable to attack)
But in the standard treasure table, there is already a sword that gives +3 and 1d6 fire.. with no AC penalty.
now.. which would -you- choose?
So either remove the normal one, or make the vives specific one give a +4.. or 2d6 fire.. or -something- to make it worth keeping. |
"I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt
My characters n portraits |
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Re: Magic.
Posted: 28 Mar 2007 01:56 PM |
It's been a very difficult problem in the past to:
1/ make a bunch of new items to replace stock ones as it is a tremendous amount of work
2/ get control of the treasure system to prevent the leak of items too powerful for vives. The default treasure scripts were not very helpful in that regard (and they still leak in objects that are not appropriate
3/ maintain all the treasure dropping objects that have been added by different builders over time, each with different scripts.
All these problems are solvable, and in hindsight could have been avoided entirely had we known then what we know now.
Hopefully, this will be improved somewhat in V2. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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