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When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 22 Feb 2007 03:52 AM |
Okay, I've had a few people mention this to me, both in-character and out of character, and I don't mind saying something snarly, so I will. :)
Point 1
First of all, Emma runs on bandages, so she's pretty cheap to keep going. However, when I travel with another character who loots every single chest and body we come across and never shares a thing, while I use said bandages, I don't much like it. Most players don't.
I don't want to have race the person I'm travelling with to every chest or bag of gold we come across. My level of frustration is multiplied tenfold if I am travelling alone or with someone considerate and one of these -looter jerks- hunts me/us down in the wilderness, joins the party, and then takes everything for himself/herself. The fact that you are the first person to a chest doesn't make its contents yours, not in the eyes of most of those I enjoy playing with, anyway.
Point 2
This has come up before. DSM had a post about it months back.
It is bad form to sneak into a dungeon either ahead or behind someone or a group who are fighting their way through it, stealing the loot ahead and behind. At least, in my opinion it is. It is darn close to griefing, in my opinion, especially when, in the situation that was explained to me, the sneaker was five levels higher than the person fighting her way through the dungeon and probably shouldn't have been there anyway.
Point 3
Muling
It is NOT on to find a way to transfer an item from one of your characters to another. Period. It is REALLY not on to get a resurrection scroll from one of your characters to be used on another.
That incident showed not only a lack of respect for the world, it showed a lack of respect for the players who had no idea what was happening, and who would not have taken part had they known.
To the characters doing these things, I want you to understand the following:
It is not going unnoticed. You are joining an unofficial blacklist where nobody wants to play with you. It is getting discussed in-character around tables in taverns, and it is getting discussed OOC as well. A PW is no fun if everyone shuns you, and by acting like that, you bring it on yourselves.
Regards
-Snooty |
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 22 Feb 2007 04:12 AM |
Muling
It is NOT on to find a way to transfer an item from one of your characters to another. Period. It is REALLY not on to get a resurrection scroll from one of your characters to be used on another.
That incident showed not only a lack of respect for the world, it showed a lack of respect for the players who had no idea what was happening, and who would not have taken part had they known.
This post probably needs no further emphasis, but it's going to get it anyway.
Should I, or for that matter any other DM come across a player transferring items between their characters in this way - and please note this applies to ANY item - said person(s) will find more on their hands than IC/OOC gripes from other players to worry about.
Why? Read the 'Must read Guidelines'. If you haven't, they are the ones that bear red asterisks next to them in the link at the top of this page. You are reminded, whether you have in fact read them or not, that you are assumed to have read them by the DM team and pleading ignorance will not be accepted as an excuse. In terms of this post you will find that points 3 and 8 are particularly relevant.
I do not know who this post refers to, nor will I be approaching players involved to find out, but I WILL be watching very closely from now on and I'm sure I won't be alone in that.
You have been warned. |
ELVES! |
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 22 Feb 2007 05:03 AM |
Okay, I've had a few people mention this to me, both in-character and out of character, and I don't mind saying something snarly, so I will. :)
Point 1
First of all, Emma runs on bandages, so she's pretty cheap to keep going. However, when I travel with another character who loots every single chest and body we come across and never shares a thing, while I use said bandages, I don't much like it. Most players don't.
I don't want to have race the person I'm travelling with to every chest or bag of gold we come across. My level of frustration is multiplied tenfold if I am travelling alone or with someone considerate and one of these -looter jerks- hunts me/us down in the wilderness, joins the party, and then takes everything for himself/herself. The fact that you are the first person to a chest doesn't make its contents yours, not in the eyes of most of those I enjoy playing with, anyway.
If it is done in the context of roleplay, I don't see a problem. Nothing wrong with a greedy character, as an example, trying to take hold of as much loot as can fit in their pockets.
If your character doesn't like it, why don't she confront the looter about it IC? Some of my characters who traveled with looters had some interesting RP situations coming out of it, whether they confronted others for snatching away all the loot, looting at all (burial sites, for example), or secretly hiding their discoveries ("I found nothing" when there was something).
As long as everything is done in context of a character, there's no reason it should bother you as a player.
Point 2
This has come up before. DSM had a post about it months back.
It is bad form to sneak into a dungeon either ahead or behind someone or a group who are fighting their way through it, stealing the loot ahead and behind. At least, in my opinion it is. It is darn close to griefing, in my opinion, especially when, in the situation that was explained to me, the sneaker was five levels higher than the person fighting her way through the dungeon and probably shouldn't have been there anyway.
Partially agreed. Invisibly going ahead or behind and looting while others are fighting does seem kind of off to me, and I can see how annoying it could be. However, I can still accept it being done as long as there's an IC reason for it - using other adventurers as a distraction and decoy is still a viable tactic for a stealth artist, dirty as it might be, but it would normally require a real scum character to pull something like that off. If there is such a scum, again, annoying as dirty as it might be, its still all IC.
I personally like it when even a normal expedition somewhere can encounter unpredictable results, and not only when they come from DMs, but players can also pull off stuff like that. It's why Vives is called a living, breathing world, and no situation should be left unexpected.
If any party was going somewhere with only loot in mind on the player's level, then I personally hold that something was off to begin with. Assuming everything is done in character context, it shouldn't be taken out on OOC level. At the worst situation, one can always send a tell to the "griefer" and ask not to do such things to your character without permission, in a fashion similiar to PvP rules. Personally I think too many unnessecary enforcements limit the open-endedness of the game, but that's your choice. I think calling it out as griefing is an exaggerated reaction.
On another point, in response to the "shouldn't have been there" comment: while as per written above I think such situation is legitimate, a "stealth artist" descreetly tagging himself to a party's adventure (Adventurer: "Lets loot Lynaeum!" ; Looter: "This is a good chance for me!") situation is different to a player using the Player's Stone, seeing a party in a dungeon, and waltz his character over there - the Player's Stone is meant to allow a player to track down another for RP purposes, not to find looting opportunities. Like I said several times before, things are okay as long as they are done in character context.
Point 3
Muling
It is NOT on to find a way to transfer an item from one of your characters to another. Period. It is REALLY not on to get a resurrection scroll from one of your characters to be used on another.
That incident showed not only a lack of respect for the world, it showed a lack of respect for the players who had no idea what was happening, and who would not have taken part had they known.
Transfering items from your own character to another, as far as I am aware, is against server rules. It is, by all means, a pure form of metagaming on the player's part. There's nothing further to add about that.
To the characters doing these things, I want you to understand the following:
It is not going unnoticed. You are joining an unofficial blacklist where nobody wants to play with you. It is getting discussed in-character around tables in taverns, and it is getting discussed OOC as well. A PW is no fun if everyone shuns you, and by acting like that, you bring it on yourselves.
I don't know how the admins regard the above-mentioned situations, but here's my final opinion:
First, if a player does these things then the character should have a reason for it. An archetypical ranger, as an example, has no IC reason to pull above-mentioned dirty tricks to snatch loot away from mundane adventurers. However, a greedy rogue lowlife who wants all that mundane adventure loot - does. There is a difference from "I wanted the loot for myself" to "that's just what my character does".
I don't really know what happened in the situations you mentioned, so I can't really tell if it was some IC situation or just plain griefing, but I have to say I definately don't agree with blacklisting people. There is also a difference between the adventurers not trusting the one who looted away from them and blacklisting him and the players not liking the other player and blacklisting him for it.
I guess the real question is: was things done out of character and out of RP context, or was it just annoying to be denied loot no matter the context? |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 22 Feb 2007 07:02 AM |
Just some advice, as briefly touched on already.
If you are partied with a treasure grabber, then deal with it IC before it becomes an OOC issue.
The more lawful types should insist on a party leader who's responsibility it is for organizing these things.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 22 Feb 2007 10:01 AM |
To those who have replied to this and said: Why not deal with it IC?
To a large degree, the character(s) who have been guilty of the behaviors above have been told IC. Numerous times. And this post is actually a result of what other players have told me more than what I've seen. I'm not going to write a long list of 'incident reports', and what the response to them was.
Some people don't get the message, and if it is IC to loot and not share, so be it. You're probably going to be playing solo a lot, if this is how you behave. It -is- gettting discussed by other players around tables in taverns, and it -is- colouring in-character reactions.
This post, in part, represents an attempt to let the culprits know, clearly, how other players (well, some other players, anyway) feel about it before it starts making the game less enjoyable for -them- (the culprits).
That's my last word on this, anyway.
Cheers,
-Snooty |
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 22 Feb 2007 11:06 AM |
While you can post hundreds of rules in the forums, starting areas or wherever in or outside a module, on my other server we have a simple golden rule that stands above all and is expected to be known and followed by everyone:
"Everyone gets to have fun, and no-one gets to have fun at someone else's expense."
All the above mentioned situations count as a violation of that rule and would have been penalized, and it does not matter if there's an IC excuse or not when you /intentionally/ piss off another player like that.
If you're a level 20 char and sneak by a level 10 who is fighting for that treasure risking his life, just to steal his well-earned reward, then there's no RP excuse, it's simply bad sportmanship.
I had that situation one time - while my weakling char got her a$ handed on a silver tablet by a minotaur chieftain, I saw the traps around her disappear and heard the sound of opening chests, and boy was I pissed. But I spoke to the player IC and after that, it did not happen again, and if it doesn't, I'm ok with it and keep no grief. It shouldn't have happened in the first place though.
I'm not friend of rules, partly because every rule can be weakened again with made-up rp reasons, partly because too many rules to follow make players paranoid. But "I'm a rogue, it's IC for me to piss people off" is just like saying "I'm stupid evil, that is my IC reason to kill you from behind", I don't think there's a need to make a new rule to avoid that, it should be common sense.
As for loot sharing, I was used to share everything evenly when I came to Vives. Sell all, split the gold. Sometimes you can forget it, sometimes most people simply say they don't need anything, but try to keep asking, and when the loot is shared, split fair, even if you're a rogue.
When someone really thinks "I'm a rogue, I have an IC reason to keep this belt and won't tell it anyone", then you should tell it ooc. Hell, whatever, make a bluff roll, but if it's IC, let the others know it's your char and not you who is playing the arse.
Another thing that happened to me often recently is the situation where I clear one room in an area while another char just runs in behind me and starts clearing the rest.
People, don't you hear battle sounds? Never check the player list? Or just look around, there's another person in your line of sight, just not standing right in front of you!
I'm fine with partying up and getting the rest together, but that's not easy when you run through at 180mph not seeing anything right behind you.
In those cases I just wish people would sometimes slow down a little bit and pay attention to their surroundings.
I know very good that sometimes one just needs a little gold or wants some fast action, and when I'm alone you see me running and loot like a champion too, but I try to pay attention and look for other players constantly, and when one is near, I try not to act like I was playing a singleplayer mod. |
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 22 Feb 2007 12:21 PM |
| I myself have always hated rules, and have been of the mindset "If someone takes issue with how my characters act, they can talk to me OOC", figuring as how I'm a generally nice and decent person. However, some rules of course, need to be instituted, such as the muling (which has been instituted for quite some time now). I will say, as a player of a rogue, and the owner of a shop, I do tend to go out treasure hunting whenever I poke in. If it's counter-productive to group adventuring, please, let me know. I'm glad to accomodate. And, if any of this was directed at me (though I don't think it was...) I do apologize. |
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 22 Feb 2007 12:23 PM |
To those who have replied to this and said: Why not deal with it IC?
To a large degree, the character(s) who have been guilty of the behaviors above have been told IC. Numerous times. And this post is actually a result of what other players have told me more than what I've seen. I'm not going to write a long list of 'incident reports', and what the response to them was.
Some people don't get the message, and if it is IC to loot and not share, so be it. You're probably going to be playing solo a lot, if this is how you behave. It -is- gettting discussed by other players around tables in taverns, and it -is- colouring in-character reactions.
This post, in part, represents an attempt to let the culprits know, clearly, how other players (well, some other players, anyway) feel about it before it starts making the game less enjoyable for -them-.
That's my last word on this, anyway.
Cheers,
-Snooty
If IC, you have told someone and IC they do not listen, then IC, why do you continue to travel with such a known thief?
My IC response would be to /a/ never travel with such a character and /b/ let others know IC.
Sorted.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 23 Feb 2007 01:31 AM |
To start, I want to say something. If I have ever done this to you, or to anyone else, please let me know. I will first apologize and then make it up to you.
The problem is that IC and OOC are constantly intertwined.
"It's what my character would do" is a lame excuse. If your character likes to loot and rob the dungeon dry, that's fine, "what my character would do" would be to confront you IG, and while you're mid-sentence rip your soul from your body and then loot you (assuming I didn't believe that the last 12 chests were empty). Funny that there's a rule against something like that, since blasting you without permission would upset you, and it's considered grief play.
Not sharing the loot is grief play.
I don't really care how you try to justify it. Stealing from every treasure chest ahead of everyone else and then claiming it was empty is taking advantage of game mechanics that they can't see what you lifted. No amount of Sleight of Hand (that you don't have since it's not a NWN skill) is going to hide that magical greataxe you just pulled out of the chest. Going ahead of someone else that doesn't even know you're there and robbing them of their well-earned reward is downright scumbag material. While your character might be a heartless thieving bastard, try and remember that behind the other guy is an actual person whose feelings you might be hurting.
On an action server I tried, the server would announce to the whole party what anyone in the party picked up. Maybe something like this could be implemented? Maybe if you take something while stealthed, it makes a dex roll for sleight of hand against a DC based on how many blocks in the inventory it takes up, or something. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 23 Feb 2007 02:05 AM |
On another couple of servers I occasionally *cough* grace with my presence, anything a character picked up triggers a message that is also seen by anyone that is within sight/hearing range.
Of course, those servers have a little trouble (since it says "Soand So looted this") with being able to sell said items to merchants, on account of that pesky (also, ironically, somewhat metagamy) item lock of "stolen" possessions.
Could this somehow be implemented, regardless? I know there's at least one merchant that buys things (traps and the like) that are considered unsellable to other merchants for the aforementioned reason.
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 23 Feb 2007 04:39 AM |
Due to a custom Vives script tied in with pickpocketing, any and all items flagged as "stolen" which your PC acquires are instantly un-flagged as stolen.
The last time I tried to disable that script, a lot of people lost XP due to the automatic anti-PP-grief script, which promptly fired at odd and inappropriate moments and robbed PCs of XP whilst blasting them with a warning saying that they had been flagged as PP griefers. I had to restore that script in a hurry.
So the moral of the story is... it's better to rely on PC integrity first, and mechanics last. In this instance, trying to conceptualise and implement mechanics to police PCs will take up a lot of time and effort and in the end will just solve nothing. It would also make Vives a less friendly environment. Nine times out of ten when an issue arises on Vives, it's neither appropriate nor necessary to implement some strict automatic policing system to deal with it. Not when it can be solved just by dealing with it like mature human beings. |
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 23 Feb 2007 02:08 PM |
So the moral of the story is... it's better to rely on PC integrity first, and mechanics last. In this instance, trying to conceptualise and implement mechanics to police PCs will take up a lot of time and effort and in the end will just solve nothing. It would also make Vives a less friendly environment. Nine times out of ten when an issue arises on Vives, it's neither appropriate nor necessary to implement some strict automatic policing system to deal with it. Not when it can be solved just by dealing with it like mature human beings.
I agree with that. I have no fun playing on a server where the players are always treated as "possible criminals" and big brother is watching me all the time. Heh, when I was new to Vives I even stopped playing again for a few days because I thought the listener was some sort of policeman watching my ingame behaviour - good I took the time for some research before leaving Vives behind, newbie me.... :D |
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Re: When travelling partied...even when not
Posted: 23 Feb 2007 09:53 PM |
...because I thought the listener was some sort of policeman watching my ingame behaviour...
If you have a question, you can always ask. At worst, we'll take away all your xp, dm kill your character, give them a RIP chip, deny your application and..and... yes! kick your shins!
*gets dragged away by the other DMs for some well needed rest*
Seriously though, ask.
And the listener just "listens" to your every word.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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