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The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 01:44 PM |
I've wanted to get this off my chest for awhile...for those who know me, this explains my absence and repeated "in and out" status of the Vives chatroom and game since I left about 2 years ago. For those who don't know me, this is a good overview of the NWN1 PW sccene and the absolute neccesity of evolution into NWN2.
When NWN1 first came out, it didn't take long for PW's to surface. As usual with any modding community that has easily accessible tools, there was plenty of garbage to sift through. A lot of the bad PW's had great ideas buried undearneath bugs and poor execution, and a lot of PW's had great promise but simply didn't get the chance to flourish. A great majority of the modding community in the PW scene was, to be blunt, socially inept, issue ridden teens and even adults with too many real life issues that bogged down a lot of others and halted progress. There was competition on area numbers, area sizes, hak pak sizes, level ranges, and roleplay ideals. Every PW thought they had it right, yet none of them truly achieved what can be considered success other than a very, very small majority.
How do we define success? Success in terms of gaming comes down to two things.
1) Player enjoyment
2) Player retention
Without #1, there's no #2. Without #2, #1 will begin to decline as players go elsewhere or the world becomes stale. This was the fate of most "RP" oriented PW's.
Success stems directly from constantly being better and growing, in more ways than one. A PW needs creativity, technical know-how, an experienced staff, and simple rules. Too many rules creates an "iron fist" regime that blocks players from coming in and enjoying things. The old mentality of "DM's kill players and make it hell, that's what D&D is about" is, sadly enough, not nearly as dead as it should be. Good DM's tell a story and create enjoyment for everyone, that's what makes a skilled DM and in a PW, the same principles apply to the designers and builders.
So how can a PW become better and grow? With creativity and an expanding playerbase. To be blunt, a lot of really good PW's with promise that were RP oriented fell off the map or failed to have any success in terms of total enjoyment for a wide variety of players because of RP circle jerks, where the "good ole' boys" ruled the server. Overly strict rules that were very broad and enforced only a single point of view by a DM or staff is not conducive to having a good, reliable, mature playerbase of 50+ people at a time. The PW's in NWN2 must learn from the mistakes made in NWN1, and make less rules with more static road blocks and abilities for players themselves to take care of things IG and IC. A good PW is like any good game...it doesn't restrict, it adapts.
This brings to light the two most important aspects that PW's got wrong in NWN1. The only way to have a successful, fun, enjoyable PW is to create, through proper construction of areas, the world, and through scripts, a player-centric world. DM'ing as a tag-line and draw for a PW does not work. DM'ing as the main source of fun does not work. DM's are not and cannot always be on, and not every DM can be grand. Only when the players are left with options and abilities to deal with themselves and each other as a community in the game can a PW thrive and flourish. DM'ing is the cherry on top, but the ice cream, chocolate sauce, and whipped cream are player actions. A small group of DM's can never match the creativity that thrives and grows in a player-run community done right.
So what can NWN2 PW's do to become successful, and actually take a step forward in creativity and bringing an enjoyable, memorable, and fantastic fantasy experience to players? I'll number these for ease.
1) Simple, fair rules.
2) Allowance of players to deal with IG issues, as well as advance and interact with each other through the use of scripts and built-in parameters. The player community makes a PW grow and work.
3) Not allowing the fallacy of "DM Run". Patched/Upgraded persistent content that is either static or allows the players to act accordingly in game will bring a more complete, realistic, and enjoyable experience.
When all three are realized and implemented, it destorys the good ole' boys sitting around at high level, bored and demanding DM attention, or simply leaving out newer, inexperienced players with nothing really to do. When all three are realized, all players can help each other have a better time, creating their own adventures and situations, factions and stories. From the lowliest level 1 to the mightiest level 20, a well designed PW realizes that each has something to offer, and let's them offer it in more ways than just sitting around spamming emotes and missing the one thing D&D brought to us...a community of adventure. |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 02:36 PM |
*applauds*
Well said, Fen. |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 02:49 PM |
| *applauds* |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 05:15 PM |
| All well and good, but what exactly do you propose is done? Saying there is a problem is one thing, giving solutions is another. |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 07:01 PM |
Just to point out, you left out a big source of PW deaths:
Shoddy, crappy roleplayers.
Y'know; the real annoying ones that nobody likes and therefore avoids because of the asinine things they do?
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 07:10 PM |
All well and good, but what exactly do you propose is done? Saying there is a problem is one thing, giving solutions is another.
The main thing to solve such a problem would be (from scratch, for instance) to enact the proper scripts and building that allows players freedom and abilities to make a truly player-run world. Factions, guilds, housing, etc. A consistent, competent set of builders exclusively assigned to persistence can modify areas from recent events or from player posts. Encourage players to post events IC as a journal on a website, or even password protected faction forums. This allows players to interact with each other and also fill in builders.
A comprehensive system of opportunities to interact will go much farther with things in the module that create tension and conflict, such as resources or even entire areas and towns, or perhaps a faction of NPC's.
As for the simple rules, that's pretty self-explanatory. Encourage RP and good playing, and for those who don't follow the rules, IC posts from other players will either get them hunted down and ostricized or noticed by the persistence builders, where a faction hit can cause the player to be exiled from a town, for example. |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 08:49 PM |
Just to point out, you left out a big source of PW deaths:
Shoddy, crappy roleplayers.
Y'know; the real annoying ones that nobody likes and therefore avoids because of the asinine things they do?
This is why the allowance for players to A) ignore them or B) take direct action against them within the game is essential, and if things get bad enough an IG solution (faction hits that make them enemies with cities or merchants) is essential. This comes back to adaptation and letting the players decide, as a whole, when enough is enough.
Also, the question of how one defines shoddy and crappy in roleplaying is another issue. This is a sloppery slope in regards to elitism and "the good ole boys" beginning to negatively impact a server, when in fact a large group of more experienced players can be a great boon to a PW.
PW's don't die because of crappy roleplayers, PW's die because they have no good way to deal with them, convert them, or keep them away. |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 08:56 PM |
I don't really have time to elaborate, but I disagree on "Not DM run".
Players RPing amongst themselves is of course vital, but the real bread and butter of any RP environment is PC-world interaction. That needs DMs.
-Barnas |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 09:21 PM |
I agree that there are some PC/World interaction events that need to be DM-run.
I believe Fen's point is that the world should be a sandbox, but if the only time there's sand in the box is when there's an adult around, that's not fun. |
- [Rob], Balthor, Jake, and Thomas. |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 09:44 PM |
I don't really have time to elaborate, but I disagree on "Not DM run".
Players RPing amongst themselves is of course vital, but the real bread and butter of any RP environment is PC-world interaction. That needs DMs.
-Barnas
What I'm exactly getting at is if RP'ing (or as per usual, emoting and just chit chatting) alone does not make for adventure, intrigue, and conflict, so a PW needs to make sure players have the chance and the tools to make sure other things can happen.
PC-World interaction is the job of builders and quest designers, the few gaps that can't be filled by the toolset or ingenuity is for the DM's. In PnP, it's only the DM and he's there the whole time for a few people. In a PW, it opens up to the professional realm of good game and world design, where the DM isn't always around and there are dozens and dozens of players. The DM's are human, they can't be expected to do everything at supercomputer speed 24/7. For a world only up 8 hours a week with three DM's taking shifts it's fine. For a persistent world the DM-run ideal will always fall short.
I believe Fen's point is that the world should be a sandbox, but if the only time there's sand in the box is when there's an adult around, that's not fun.
Well said :) |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 09:52 PM |
(Just as a note: Currently I'm playing devil's advocate)
I think this can be where mechanics gets in the way. For things to constantly be driven IG by other players, how can you manage to constantly have buildings and houses and stuff built and torn down as players come and go, some living short bursts full of life for a week, some occasionally around a few times a month, and different cases thereof.
Another issue is if everyone has the power, how is this kept from being abused? |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 10 Nov 2006 05:43 PM |
I think it would help this conversation to ground it in the specifics of Vives. Right now it seems many concepts are being thrown around, but to me they sound vague. I can find agreement with a lot of what Fen is saying, but what any of it means in terms of building Vives 2... I have no idea.
It seems to me that Vives' persistant world system is a good example to follow. But NWN 2 has a number of constraints that might render the system obsolete.
Here's my take on some of the things that work here:
1. The meshing of narrative with the adventures of the player:
This is accomplished through the text descriptions of the areas, a system of text based roleplay conventions such as emotes, the inclusion of storyline synopses to the NWN player client's journal, and the all of the Vives forum to which players can post their narratives. All of this helps immerse the player in a storytelling environment of a persitant world. The persistant world to me is actually the ongoing story told from the perspective of all the players and DM's.
I think a somewhat better journal system could greatly enhance this aspect of the game. And although the forum could probably be improved upon, I do not have any suggestions at this time.
2. The xp system:
Although the xp system could probably be improved, the concept and execution of it is excellent. To encourage mutiple types of game play through these rewards encourages a diverse playerbase. Also having a diverse means to improving the power of your character, feels more "real" than just getting xp for killing stuff, or happening to be saying the right thing when a DM is around handing out xp.
I can't say enough how important I think this system is to the success of Vives. I think it has helped foster a diverse player base, and maintain interest in the game when DM's are not around. When you are rewarded by the world for more than just killing monsters, you have a very tangible reason for going out and interacting with the mod in innumerable ways. If I was only rewarded for killing monsters, or only rewarded for roleplaying... I would only be motivated to build a certain kind of character. Whereas, now I feel rewarded for any kind of character I may make.
3. Versimilitude and Deep Lore:
It seems to me that every detail in Vives has meaning. And that you can make inferences about the world's lore from the way some of the areas are built. Perhaps I am just crazy and have made some wildly lucky guesses, but it seems to me that when exploring new areas I have noticed things that prepared me for the monsters I was to meet. This has also been true for solving some of the quests in the game.
I think this attention to detail suggests to the player that the world is worthy of respect and attention. Lore isn't something that you just learn from a DM or another player or the forum. It comes to you also from interacting with the environment.
4. Simple and Effective Ground Rules
Although I do not actually like Vives strong stance against PvP interaction I think the rules that the builders/DM's have set up work very very well to foster a fun environment. They are simple and unobtrusive. Although I do not like them I have no qualms about abiding by them because due to their simplicity and unobtrusiveness I do not feel restricted. Sorry if that was not very clear.
Let it just be said that the world has to have a set of ground rules. The simpler they are, and the less obtrusive they are, I think the more conducive they will be to having fun.
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I wuld post more... but I gotta get back to work. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
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Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 11 Nov 2006 01:53 AM |
Thanks for the feedback Henesua, it's very helpful.
Modwise, I'm mostly a caretaker. The original designers of Vives put a lot of thought into the mechanics and got a lot of things right.
In Vives2, I expect that to keep a lot of their original mechanics, like the XP system for example, and improve upon some of the others (like fixing trap and lock xp to use a similiar system to combat xp).
Things like discovery XP and area descriptions are one of the first things I immediately miss when checking out other PW's. In Vives2, I will alter the system so that area changes (descriptions, xp rewards, wild magic effects, yadda, yadda, yadda) can be done by the DMs from the website rather than done by the builders by changing the mod. That means instant changes!
The PvP rules were created after a *lot* of thought and discussion. Since it was implemented, we've basically had no problems between players arising because of forced PvP or unwanted PvP.
In Vives2 I expect we'll keep the ground rules as simple as possible and have things displayed better through the use of a wiki rather than via forums.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 11 Nov 2006 05:00 PM |
Things like discovery XP and area descriptions are one of the first things I immediately miss when checking out other PW's. In Vives2, I will alter the system so that area changes (descriptions, xp rewards, wild magic effects, yadda, yadda, yadda) can be done by the DMs from the website rather than done by the builders by changing the mod. That means instant changes!
That is, quite possibly, the coolest thing I've heard about any upcoming PW...It seems like such a small thing, but I'm with Paul, those descriptions are the first things that I instinctively look for on other PWs, and of course they're never there...and the ability to change them whenever...big thumbs up! and xp for traps, etc...more good stuff!
As for the original post, I'm with Henesua...I agree with most of it in theory, and sure the idea that the world changes as the result of player actions is good, with buildings, factions, etc. But there also has to be balance...I've seen a few worlds essentially get shut down because players demanded certain things that interfered with others, feelings got hurt, cries of favoritism, etc.
I think Vives has done a pretty job of keeping this balanced...There are obvious examples of PCs having tremendous impact on the world through buildings, factions, stories, etc. Personally, I'd like to see that process opened up a little bit more in Vives2. I've been on PWs where players can request to move ahead a specific quest or plotline, and the GMs work with the PC to run that, along with whatever other PCs want to get involved. I don't especially like that method because it seems too forced, but if there's a good middle ground that could be found...
As for GMs, I can come up with an interesting character and background and RP all I want other PCs, but there is something fundamentally different when a GM is around. This is especially true as the PCs get used to the world and the number of things that can surprise you dwindles. I've had fun on Vives with just PCs on...I've had fun on Vives with PCs and GMs.....and the latter, no matter how much fun I've had with the PCs, is always more satisfying, if only because I am able to react to the world and not just the other PCs.
Sure, players should be the drivers of the world. Having your good ideas shot down all the time or have nothing come out of any of them is no fun. But GMs not only start the car, they're also responsible for the weather, other traffic, etc. (to completely bungle the metaphor!)...purely my humble opinion. |
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for...
-- Ernest Hemingway |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 11 Nov 2006 06:46 PM |
Anyone ever played The Wanderer?
I'm not a fan of DND mechanics. I seriously think they are the most demented set of rules I have ever seen. But then something like The Wanderer or Shadowlords (and its subsequent sequels) comes along and actually does something cool with it.
The opinion system of The Wanderer (well-written NPCs form an opinion of you based on what you say and do, and they remember it), and the way that it uses skills/abilities and actually makes all of them meaningful, is something I'd like to see in V2. And to that extent, I think, it would be really cool to have PCs be able to affect the world in that way without a DM around. Yes, mechanics are secondary; but you have to admit, when mechanics actually work with the story and the setting rather than being obtrusive and frustrating, it makes such a difference (the aforementioned Vives xp system comes to mind).
As for PCs being able to build things, well, I see that as a problem if it doesn't get filtered through the building team first before being imported. So much communication and coordination goes on at the moment with regards to who's building what. All areas in Vives have a checklist, and one of the important items on that checklist is, what purpose does the area serve? Every area has to actually have a purpose in the world and has to tie in with the existing lore. This is going to be especially important in Vives 2, because V2 will require a lot more planning than V1.
As an example, we've done the calculations and discovered that we'll be limited to approximately 40 outdoor areas and 300 interior ones. Good lord! V1 has 826 areas and we still want to add more! V1 is the only mod to have discovered there is actually an object limit (when we accidentally hit it one day... heh) so that's the other thing we've learned to watch and control. So a lot of pre-planning has to go into V2, far more than V1, with regards to how areas will be partitioned. Who gets how many areas? How many will we dedicate to that city, how many to the Elven realm, how many to those mountains? The process for building V2 is rather different to V1 in that we have the opportunity to write from scratch and plan things out beforehand. In V2, more than ever, it's a case of writing the lore and mapping the areas first before building anything. NWN2 limitations are going to force us to be stricter on building procedures than V1.
We have had players submit areas in the past and we've imported them in, but I don't foresee the process we use changing. There are already enough instances of "hey, what's this area and who put it here and more importantly, what's the story behind it?" as it is, even with all the daily communication flying back and forth between the team. Opening it up as a free-for-all without any QA can't possibly result in anything but pandemonium.
One of the important reasons behind having a hierarchy in place with really major things having to be approved by Builders and/or DMs is that the Builders and DMs act like the Editor of a comic series. Continuity and consistency. Just imagine:
"So yesterday I marched in to that big city with this huge army of orcs and monsters, and I totally conquered the place and named myself king."
"Oh, did you? I thought I did that this morning with rabid killer badgers."
"No, no, you've got it both wrong. Two years ago, before you ever came to this PW, an almighty enchantment was placed upon the city. So anyone who takes it away from the rightful rulers is going to drop dead. Yeah. That means you."
"What? Well, that wasn't scripted in to the mechanics, so I choose not to drop dead."
Writing dialogues, quests and consequences is time-consuming. Very time-consuming. I am in awe of all the planning that went into The Wanderer, HeX coda, and various other mods. Writing for a PW is something altogether different; you may have noticed, for instance, that some conversations and static quests in V1 rend asunder the fabric of space/time continuity. A lot of the time, you have to provide just enough detail and no more, leaving conversations as blank slates for PCs to draw upon.
Consequences and the world reacting to the PCs without DMs around? I'm all for it, at least, as far as introducing something like The Wanderer's opinion system. Player-run quests? They already happen in V1. A PC who can be trusted to seize a quest and run it and get other PCs involved with almost no DM supervision is awesome. This is where communication is important. Again, a lot of communication happens as it is within the DM team before any major event or change is introduced into the world which will impact upon PCs in a big way; a lot of double-checking, a lot of digging into the background and lore and previous events, a lot of consulting both DMs and PCs who have been around for longer and picking their brains, trying to ensure that all the proposed changes will integrate seamlessly. And even with all that happening, there's no guarantee that it will all go smoothly or as planned.
So the issue there again is QA. To an extent, meaningful consequences handled by IG mechanics is possible and should be implemented (eg. persistent NPC opinions, combined with detailed and meaningful NPC conversations). To an extent, PCs in V1 can already end up in prominent roles and run their own events without needing DMs at all (eg. The Convoker's Agenda; the concerts of Macha Sparrowsong and Bunt).
Anything beyond that does need DMs in place. V2 is a bigger, more detailed world than V1. Trying to keep track of all the details of V1 is hard enough as it is; keeping track of all the V2 details... eeeek. Doing so once you start adding PCs to the equation and transforming the world from a static bunch of background lore and areas into a dynamic living, breathing world gets even more complicated to juggle. PCs can and do (often with impunity) affect the world and its stories. This then affects other PCs. That's why major changes and plot developments need to be managed (note: not controlled) by DMs. Taking out that level of management is roughly akin to running a large-scale software project without any revision control system in place whatsoever.
*Points to the absolute continuity mess that is Star Trek as an example of what happens when there's no one in charge of maintaining continuity and consistency*
At the end of the day, in V2—just as it is in V1—the fate you make is the only fate you deserve. |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 12 Nov 2006 12:23 AM |
I understand what Fen is saying but, I don't know if it is possible to achive that.
Sometimes it is anoying to feel we are all being driven to a specific path, wich is perfectly aceptable if we think DM's have to actually plan the plots for them to make sence in the world.
On other hand theres nothing like players criativity and the feeling of that mark you left in the world because you had iniciative.
In vives, and I might have a diferent opinion about this, then the ones DM's or other players have but that what I feel, vives was oriented to be played by, Good PCs, or discrete evil.
Let me explain, clear acts of war, fights, hostile moves were penalised in order to avoid OOC conflict, people who cries over this and that, we all know the script. the tool vives uses works partialy, but, I must confess that being killed after a message asking if I can die, leaves litle to no surprise and excitement with the situation.
DM's usually played the evil chars in the world, like an ignition key, starting the engine to quests and plots.
The sysem created in Vives works.
Now, the perfect PW, like Fen was saying, would be like.. if there were no DMs, I mean, you go to a tavern you drink and don't pay, the bartender might take some action upon you...possibly would kick your arse until gets his money, call his goons to beat the hell out of you, and deny you entry in his establishement! Of course this is an easy example, and can be scripted, but what about other examples?
the ability a char has to change and afect the world is exciting, factions can bring problems if not well oriented, or limited, but on other side brings work and coperation towards a comun goal, wich is awesome, also having a clear enemy, a target, a goal, can be fun.
The question is... The system impemented in Vives works, and can the team make a system work with this kind of situation? Well I won't answer because this team has always susprised me, and Im sure it will do it again.
Fictrix just one question, limited to 40 outdoor areas and 300 indoor? Thats probably the saddest thing you coud ever say to me... Exploring vives was the coolest thing, and vives almost got to the 1000 areas. being limited to.. half... will for sure make it less fun... |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 12 Nov 2006 05:15 AM |
Fictrix just one question, limited to 40 outdoor areas and 300 indoor? Thats probably the saddest thing you coud ever say to me... Exploring vives was the coolest thing, and vives almost got to the 1000 areas. being limited to.. half... will for sure make it less fun...
I disagree. I do not think having less areas will necessarily make Vives 2 less fun. I like exploring also, but if you have half the areas available for building then those areas need to have twice the level of complexity.
Another thing I am curious about...
Is it possible to have two mods that are linked to one another, share the same character pool, and access the same database? |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 12 Nov 2006 05:46 AM |
There are already PWs in NWN1 that run that way; the problem with that is that Vives' population is not big enough to justify splitting it up that way. That, and any scripting (or other global) changes you make to one would need to be done twice (effectively, you have to maintain two mods).
This is an issue because the Vives 2 mod will be huge. Not the 150-ish MB that the V1 mod is, but probably something like 2GB (or more; ask PDW or Ara). That means that every time a bug fix occurs, both (or all, depending on how many there are) mods will have to be downloaded. Then changed. Then saved. Then uploaded again. Then all of them set to load...
You get the idea. A maintenance nightmare. And a division of players. If there are 10 players on one mod and 4 on another, which one do you log in to? Which one do DMs log in to if they're in the mood to hop in and run something?
More trouble than it's worth. |
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 12 Nov 2006 09:28 AM |
Is it possible to have two mods that are linked to one another, share the same character pool, and access the same database?
The trouble is with the size of exteriors One medium sized exterior area takes up approximately 50mb or so (Vives 1 in it's entirety is 150 mb or so, not including database etc).
At present all the areas need to be kept in a server's RAM. Windows will only make use of 2gb of RAM, and NWN2 won't run on Linux as of yet.
What we are thinking of doing is adding another server somewhere down the line to run alongside Cecil so we can perhaps double the number of exteriors in the future.
For the time being though, I think 40 exteriors and 250 interiors or somesuch will still be cool for players..... They'll be FULL of stuff to do hopefully ;)
Another thing to bear in mind is that people will have to download the walkmesh files (and they're big!) for areas before they can play, due to it not being tile-based and such.
That means if we're constantly affecting changes to areas, new buildings, altered terrain, added placeables....... then every time we make a change or addition to Vives2, then people will have to download them all over again. Gone are the days we can make 3 or 4 updates per day methinks.
- Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 12 Nov 2006 09:57 AM |
Oh I see, so the limite of areas is not a NWN2 limitation but a server limitation? I thought there was a limitation from the engine itself.
Well lets wait and see then ;)
Untill there I'll be asking Santa for an update in my machine lol |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 12 Nov 2006 02:19 PM |
[snip]Of course this is an easy example, and can be scripted,[snip]
it is obvious you don't code much. ;-) |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 12 Nov 2006 02:21 PM |
Oh I see, so the limite of areas is not a NWN2 limitation but a server limitation? I thought there was a limitation from the engine itself.
It is a limitation of both. NWN2 was designed for 32 bit windows. 2GB is the maximum amount of memory that can be addressed in that environment. Given the huge increase in mod size (due to outdoor areas), passing 2GB wont take very long. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 12 Nov 2006 06:17 PM |
[snip]Of course this is an easy example, and can be scripted,[snip]
it is obvious you don't code much. ;-)
Yee PD I don't code! periode. But I have seen it doneand it was good fun.
My point about having less areas, could give less return is based in what I saw in NWN1, NWN sold copies until NwN2 came out.
It took long years in the best sellers, for how long are you playing NWN? 4 years? 5, more?
I think that with a limited number of areas as we can get in NWN2, we will reach much more faster then we should that state of, boreness for looking at the same thing over and over, see what I mean? Of course all the action going on will make it fun and try to keep players busy, bahh I am not getting to where I want, lol better stop now, since this aint clear. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 12 Nov 2006 11:09 PM |
No, I understand what you are saying.
Building areas in nwn2 will take a lot more work than nwn1, especially with the outdoor areas, so it will take longer to generate those areas.
Scripting properly dynamic interaction is "hard". However, with the new changes to the scripting language (scripts support arguments, yay!), it will be a lot easier than it was in nwn1.
The best part of all will be the community. There are a lot of smart people out there and it will be interesting to see what they come up with.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: The State of PW's and Their Evolution
Posted: 13 Nov 2006 12:09 PM |
I for one couldn't care less about the size of Vives2. When it's playable, I will be there faster than a hasted quickling, and not for the areas (which I'm sure will be magnificent in their own right, right?) but for the unique playing community and experience. I'm currently learning the ins and outs of NWN2 so I'm ready when the ultimate PW is once again ripe for playing. That's the only reason I've cut down on Vives1, but I'll maintain some form of presence there as well, until the end. I'm sure the areas will increase in number over time in Vives2.
Just thought I'd give my opinion on this whole "it will be a lot smaller than Vives1" discussion. |
Characters IG:
Ertzi
Cerno Rapidshill |
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