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Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 19 Aug 2006 04:33 PM |
So it turns out that Shield does not protect one from Missile Swarm.
What!?!?!?!
That is absurd. A magic missile is a magic missile. Shield is the only defense. So ... Missile Swarm has no defense?
NWN's random rule changes are a bit annoying. And this seems to me grossly inconsistent. |
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 19 Aug 2006 05:08 PM |
| *Wryly* It's only a level 1 spell. Of course it won't protect against a more powerful kind of magic missile other than the level 1 variety. |
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 19 Aug 2006 06:31 PM |
I don't buy it. No matter how little protection endure elements gives you it still functions even against Hell Ball. Protection from Evil is also a first level spell, and it protects against anything that would affect your mind. So why exactly doesn't Shield function against a more powerful version of Magic Missile?
The simple truth is that Shield doesn't work because Shield doesn't list Missile Storm as one of the spells to which it grants immunity.
Aesthetically it should. No matter how much wallop a magic missile packs it can not pass through a wall of force which is essentially what the shield spell provides for an individual. How are one of Isaac's Missiles really any different than a magic missile? Is the argument that Isaac's missiles are fundamentally different than magic missiles and so can bypass the shield?
The text of the spell calls them energy missiles. Then why doesn't energy protection defend against them? *shakes head and laughs* Very poorly conceived and poorly executed.
Of course that is my general take on computer RPG's so don't take it personally. Computers do not lend themselves to roleplaying. They are too rigid. If anything, I think the Vives team is due a great amount of credit for allowing me to occassionally forget that I am playing a computer game.
If my character had been killed in another world by Missile Storm I doubt I would have complained. It is the high quality of Vives that set me up for this shock today. |
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 19 Aug 2006 06:36 PM |
| Heh. Don't get me started on the retarded DND mechanics! I could out-rant you any day. *Grins and nods sagely* |
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 19 Aug 2006 06:42 PM |
| Please don't let Fictrix start please don'tttt :P |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 19 Aug 2006 07:16 PM |
Actually you should be begging me not to start. :)
NWN's spell implementation is lame, lame lame lame lame. As is the implementation of shape changing! Egads it sucks. Why couldn't a druid turn into an innocuous animal to spy on their enemies? What am I supposed to do turn into a badger while letting everyone know that I am really a raven pecking at ants? Lame!! I've only been able to use badger once to eaves drop on a necromancer. Zubeida should be doing that all the time.
And what the hell happened to cool spells like wall of stone, wall of ice, wall of iron? Those could easily be implemented with a rotary selection of shapes. And they would add immensely to the game instead of having to give wizards ridiculous spells like Missile Storm.
I thank the vives team immensely for the incorporation of Dimension Door. Again an extremely powerful spell that isn't just a vehicle for damage dice. And so much more fun!
I should be enough of an adult to not worry about it, and start focusing on RL things which are much more important anyway.
Case in point:
Why doesn't the landscape contractor at my latest public school project know the difference between Albizia julibrissin and Jacaranda mimosifolia? Other than the completely different spellings and the completely different appearance even amongst juvenile forms of the two trees, this guy tried to convince me that they were the same species and that he should go right ahead and plant them. I like the guy and respect him, but this is just ridiculous. All he had to do depite his difficulties with English is show the person at the nursery the plant list on my planting plan and put together an order. I'm just so tired of having to help a grown man read construction documents. It isn't hard and it is your job.
Alright... I have now satisfactorily vented my frustrations. time to do some laundry, eat a burritto, and clean the house. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 19 Aug 2006 07:36 PM |
Shield does two things
1/ primarily provide a shield ac bonus to a mage (it does and does so nicely)
2/ provides immunity to magic missle only (since 1st ed)
Shield provides no protection against missle storms of any sort.
There is a spell that does provide some protection. See the vives spell changes for details.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 05:06 AM |
No protection against missile storms? - That's nonsense, really.
Lesser spell mantle, spell mantle and greater spell mantle springs to mind..not to mention Globe of invoulnerability against the lesser storm. |
"You can own the earth and still, all you own is earth until, you can sing with all the voices of the wind." |
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 06:27 AM |
I agree with Henesua on this, despite my predisposition towards spellcasters.
Shield should provide at least -some- protection against Lesser and Greater Missile Storms.
A magic missile is a magic missile.
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WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE |
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 06:42 AM |
How are one of Isaac's Missiles really any different than a magic missile? Is the argument that Isaac's missiles are fundamentally different than magic missiles and so can bypass the shield?
MM Damage = 1d4 + 1 each
ILMS Damage = 1d6 each
IGMS Damage = 2d6 each |
Ayntherian Tîwele - Elven Monk, earnest student of Ki and the Martial Arts
His Diary - Updated at 26/8/2006 with ENTRY VII |
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 10:43 AM |
The difference? Look at the level of the spells
lv 1 - Shield
lv 4 - ilms
lv 6 - igms
shield, being a level 1 spell does primarily 1 thing, provide a shield ac bonus. It is not powerful enough to provide any protection vs a level 4 or level 6 spell. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 01:41 PM |
Wow, I can not believe this is still going on. *wades back in*
I am wading back in just for the fun of this argument, mind you. I think I have a good point, but nevertheless am perfectly willing to accept that I not "have my way" so to speak. I meant my original post as a vent, and am now over it and back to suspending my disbelief when it comes to NWN's inconsistent implementation of D&D spells. I understand that the NWN engine is kludgy and that wizards need this spell to make up for their lack of appropriate wizard spells - like a true teleport and scry for example, or even the various barrier creation spells, or the summon a refuge spell. So anyway lets get on with this in the name of good fun, which is the spirit with which I am taking this. Just know that I am smiling in an amused fashion while I type this, and
From my point of view the only way to truly win this argument is to prove to me that the Missiles in Missile Storm are QUALITATIVELY different. And if they are different, what are they? Energy missiles? Then why doesn't energy protection defend against them? Etc... Etc...
I have already handled the "Level 1 spells are not strong enough to defend against higher level spells" argument. Protection from Alignment and Endure Elements both function against spells of ALL levels including epic spells. Protection from Alignment provides complete protection to all mental attacks to spells of all levels. Endure Elements is modest protection but still functions to its full ability against energy attacks. That Shield does not likewise function against all force effect missiles is inconsistent - nor does it defend against touch attacks by the way, which it should based on D20 rules mechanics as well as thinking about what it is, a floating field of force out of contact with your body.
Perhaps there are kludgy exceptions to what I state above. *shrugs* I don't know. But if there are odd exceptions then they should have a reason for it. Just as this Bioware created spell should have a reason describing why it behaves the way it does. It is clear to me that all of the reasons for the spell's existence are meta-game reasons. The spell system in NWN is crappy, and wizards needed something to put them on an equal footing with fighters with regards to dealing damage. Power in NWN is strictly measured by combat effectiveness. It is obvious that is why the spell exists, and that is fine, but the spell still needs to fit within the mechanics of the game. How does it cause damage? What kind of effect does it cause? (and if you use the other NWN kludge "magic" damage, I think you'll win this argument by default by driving me to fits of laughter because that is another inane application of a rule mechanic. What the hell is "magic" damage? Isn't acid damage typically caused by magic acid? *shakes head and laughs while muttering "stupid stupid stupid"*)
The reason I am arguing from a qualitative standpoint is because this is a role playing game - especially in the context of Vives which is an exemplary role playing server. Characters interact on the level of environmental qualities, the intensity (magnitude) of the interaction can be measured in numbers, but the experience of the interaction is described by qualities. D20 and NWN provide descriptors of certain quality types to make it easier for us to handle these things - for example in PnP magic misiles are a force effect and energy effects fall within a number of energy types - acid, sonic, electricity etc... Since NWN intends to faithfully translate these mechanics, I think it is a fair assumption that the magic of the world should adhere to them. There are many other qualities to the roleplay experience that transcend rules mechanics, but they maintain consistency also. The excellence of Vives' story lines are due to the high level of consistency that players experience. The plot holds together, and makes sense when you have the ability to put two and two together once a character learns how things work in the world. In fact, it has enabled Zubeida to influence a few interactions with other PC's and NPC's.
In other words, numbers don't mean squat when you are immersed in a role playing experience. A 2d6 Magic Missile is not really any different than one that does d4+1. All that describes is raw power, not the essence of what the Missile is. The missiles look the same, feel the same, and come from the same kind of caster.
So anyway, back over the net to you..... |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
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Re: Shield and Missile Swarm
Posted: 20 Aug 2006 03:43 PM |
I think it is safe to say we can agree to disagree.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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