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Skill use xp?
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 10:24 PM |
| Seing as skill use xp is the rogues main source of xp (they get 100%) are there any plans to actually include xp for skills? The only kind i can find so far is lock picking xp and that slumped off realy fast. It was good xp at level 2 and 3 but by 6 you do not get hardly anything. There are lots of skills like setting and dissarming traps, spot checks, sneaking, Pick Pocketing (dont turn this into a pick pocket thread please), and alot more. I think xp should be given for sucessfull attemps in these. Combat is not easy as a rogue and we only get 40% from that. ANyone else with me on this one? If you dont agree go play a rogue and try to get up around where alot of other people are (around 12 or so). |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 10:31 PM |
I don't have the time to look it up, but I do believe there's an ancient post concerning this.
-Q |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 12 Oct 2003 11:07 PM |
The following are personal opinions as a player (I have a Rogue which I enjoy very much.)
I do feel that rogues are undermined at higher (10+) levels. At the same time, however, rogues are probably the quickest class to get to level 7-8 due to a number of quests built-in that only they can tend to as well as the pick-lock / untrap skillpoints, together with sneak attacks on relatively low hitpoint creatures.
At level 7-8 rogues should be sufficient in stealth to be able to explore plenty of uncharted lands, and provide a great support for parties which would otherwise suffer from Ara's lovely deadly traps (ack). They also have plenty of other utility thanks to their uncanny abilities to use magical items...
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Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 12:35 AM |
| yeah aria but that is just skirting the whole issue saying that its not important because you can get it some other way. If all of a sudden nobody got any combat xp would it be a viable excuse to say well it does not matter because you can still do quests and explore to get xp. No, that wouldnt work. I still stand firm that using any skill should give xp. This will not only benefit rogues as all classes use skills and get some % of xp from them (well it says they do, but pick pick lock is the only one that currently does). |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 12:59 AM |
That (the above post) was my personal view on it. But then again, I'm happy the moment my character have a unique personality, and on mechanics terms is fine on his/her own, with plenty to explore and discover (and a rogue is pretty good for that).
No, that wouldnt work. I still stand firm that using any skill should give xp.
As an admin/builder, if you can send me
(i) A proposal for each skill that should give XP: it should include how does it lends towards a more enjoyable environment (getting XP is a means to an end, not an end in itself per se I hope), as well as balance issues (both amongst classes at each level, as well as the contribution from each skill).
(ii) the scripts for everything you'd like to have XP rewarded, instructions on where to implement them, as well as highlighting the parts that should be adapted for persistency.
I'll pass (i) onto the DMs/Admins, and study (ii) in very much detail. In the case of items where each individual instance in the module should be modified, it wouldn't hurt to send someone over as well, since these days Ara and myself seems to be quite short on time to go over each area to implement it (e.g. traps). |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 01:47 AM |
It was good xp at level 2 and 3 but by 6 you do not get hardly anything.
Seeing as you've been able to get to level 6 with this source of XP on a character thats been played a little under a week, I think perhaps its a sign that skill XP should be toned down if anything
If you dont agree go play a rogue and try to get up around where alot of other people are (around 12 or so)
For one thing, there are very few people above level 10 and only a handful that are level 12 or higher. Those that are, have played hundreds of hours and are generally characters that have been around for several months and have generally reached this level via XP from DM quests. In fact the average level of players is about 6.
Vives is not about a quest for XP, its a quest for RP. My feeling is, your character is only level x once, enjoy it. There is no good reason for a character to have to immediatly jump to the top of the pile because RP here starts from the start, not when your the same level as someone else. |
~Alosynth
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 04:50 AM |
*look at Alo's post and nods*
completely agreed, those that got the higher lvl char played plenty of time..
and I must say.. that as a rouge.. lvling was too dang fast..
you just went and pick locks, the biggest problem about lock picking, is that if you pick a low DC lock, it decrease the % you get for a higher DC lock -
which means it is not really balanced.. some rouges can lock low DC locks, while others will lock only higher .
I think if the lower DCs xp would have been lowered.. and then looking at locks' DCs like diff type of creatures, it will be more balanced..
another thing,
i know there is a -lot- of xp in lock picking and the overall xp you get from lock picking should be reduced..
and about traps,
many traps does not give xp, i dont know if this is a bug in the script (someone once said after setting his first trap he didnt get disarming xp - i think i might have that problem, since i dont remmember getting disarming xp (maybe ages ago =p))
so either someone need ta check the script (i'll make a char, try to disarm, then set then disarm again), or either the same trap give xp only once, not once per reset like locks.. either the traps should be fixed to give xp ;)
about other skills -
spellcrafting - when identifying and reacting to a known spell you can get the xp you would get if you had cast that spell (the attacker's spell's xp, and your defensive spell xp).
animal empethy - for each time you 'convert' an animal you can get a minor amount of xp.
stunning fist - i think for every succseful stunning fist you should get x amount of xp.
also turning undead, empthy body, trap crafting (or maybe you should get the xp only by tinkering?) and cant think about more right now, but i will ;)
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 06:07 AM |
Whoa whoa whoa. Lock picking is pretty much the only source of XP for a rogue. You cut that down, you can't do a whole lot of things. At one point, I had a crossbow to somebody's head as a lvl 1 or so, and they didn't give a rats arse, because they could just take it and kill me!
While this is bad RP, it happens, and there's not anything we can do about it. Rogues SHOULD get XP for sneak attacks, PPing, sneaking, spot checks, etc. A lot of people find ZERO enjoyment sitting around all day making things. And with the DM quests, there is a higher Person:DM ratio now than back in the Closed Beta days, so we could also use about 4-6 new DMs.
Exploring is fine, but you can only use it once. Then, when you explore so far that there is a "See invisible", you're quite dead. I found that even the Goblin Shamans can do that. Then you just lost all that beautiful XP.
While it's fairly simple to get to levels four and five (I find six to be a touch dificult with Hans), beyond that, you're quite screwed. So you really can't do a whole lot of stuff. I can't hold up Palfrey or Dias with a crossbow and say "You're going to turn around and let me go, or else I'm going to kill you" They'll just laugh.
So please, put in some more XP scripts for rogues. And for wizards and sorceresses too. They're even MORE difficult to level up. Especially Tasra. |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 10:34 AM |
That (the above post) was my personal view on it. But then again, I'm happy the moment my character have a unique personality, and on mechanics terms is fine on his/her own, with plenty to explore and discover (and a rogue is pretty good for that).
No, that wouldnt work. I still stand firm that using any skill should give xp.
As an admin/builder, if you can send me
(i) A proposal for each skill that should give XP: it should include how does it lends towards a more enjoyable environment (getting XP is a means to an end, not an end in itself per se I hope), as well as balance issues (both amongst classes at each level, as well as the contribution from each skill).
(ii) the scripts for everything you'd like to have XP rewarded, instructions on where to implement them, as well as highlighting the parts that should be adapted for persistency.
I'll pass (i) onto the DMs/Admins, and study (ii) in very much detail. In the case of items where each individual instance in the module should be modified, it wouldn't hurt to send someone over as well, since these days Ara and myself seems to be quite short on time to go over each area to implement it (e.g. traps).
Well aria i would be more than happy to write you a little think about all the skills that should get xp, how the xp should be based and all that stuff. But as far as writing you scripts that is a little out of my league. I think that would be something good to learn in the future but unfortunatly i have enough classes that i have to study for and too many things to learn as it is. I can do (i) for you still if you want? let me know.
As far as the other things i am totally not concerned about how fast you can get somewhere, i am only concerned about the Pool of possible xp as a total. Rogues can only get 40% of the combat xp but 100% of the skill use xp. Since the skill use xp pool is Sooooo low (because only lock pikcing gives it) your potential for growth is a whole lot lower than say a fighter that would get 100% combat xp and 40% skill use (if they get 40% skill use). Did i explain that good enough? If someone does not understand say so and i will try to go into more detail anout the possible xp pool. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 10:56 AM |
As far as the other things i am totally not concerned about how fast you can get somewhere, i am only concerned about the Pool of possible xp as a total. Rogues can only get 40% of the combat xp but 100% of the skill use xp. Since the skill use xp pool is Sooooo low (because only lock pikcing gives it) your potential for growth is a whole lot lower than say a fighter that would get 100% combat xp and 40% skill use (if they get 40% skill use). Did i explain that good enough? If someone does not understand say so and i will try to go into more detail anout the possible xp pool.
well.. fighters need to work for their xp tho.. and got -much- higher chance to die and loose xp cuz of it..
rouges also got high discovery modifier (70% or 75% if i am not wrong), which is much higher then a fighter's.
also, rouges can use scrolls, which are not really rare/hardtoget on vives (something that should be changed IMO - it is not worse as it was.. but still seems like the marchents got high lvl scrolls too often) so unlike fighters, they can cast spells in combat, and if going with someone else, they can use ranged weapons + sneak attack.. and actually there are a -lot- of options that rouges got, that can make them as 'fighters' as the fighter class (=p)
and again, as Aria said (i think that was Aria):
they can use practicly every item (beside those from profencies they dont take) and can get to places fighters cannot, by disarming/unlocking etc
Dens |
You are more than welcome to ignore my spelling mistakes =p |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 13 Oct 2003 02:20 PM |
Well aria i would be more than happy to write you a little think about all the skills that should get xp, how the xp should be based and all that stuff. But as far as writing you scripts that is a little out of my league. I think that would be something good to learn in the future but unfortunatly i have enough classes that i have to study for and too many things to learn as it is. I can do (i) for you still if you want? let me know.
If you can do a write-up/proposal for each skill that you think should be added in (you can post them here), and if they're reasonable, I'd see if there's anything we can do about them. But then again, since I see fleshing out the setting / support for DMs / developing new 'technologies' indefinitely more important for Vives (or simply personally more interesting), unless you can convince me how this contributes to the role-playing, this would remain at rather low priority.
As far as the other things i am totally not concerned about how fast you can get somewhere, i am only concerned about the Pool of possible xp as a total. Rogues can only get 40% of the combat xp but 100% of the skill use xp. Since the skill use xp pool is Sooooo low (because only lock pikcing gives it) your potential for growth is a whole lot lower than say a fighter that would get 100% combat xp and 40% skill use (if they get 40% skill use). Did i explain that good enough? If someone does not understand say so and i will try to go into more detail anout the possible xp pool.
In DnD, classes were never meant to be equal, both in terms of growth rate, plateau point, and final 'utility'.
As a last aside, if the only concern you have is the pool of possible XP as a total your character can get, I'm sure there are many places out there which would be able to better suit your needs. I highly recommend, for example, Lands of Lore, for a thrilling experience. |
Aria
So talented, so troubled. |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 12:26 PM |
I understand all of the above arguments, and they all make sense. Characters are not meant to be equal...roleplaying is where the fun is...there are plenty of ways to get xp. Yes.
For me however, the concern is with the advertising. I spent a goodly amount of time before signing up with Vives reading about it. Especially exciting for me, and I imagine others as well, was this incredible and dynamic experience system. And I must say, from the way it is described, it is quite remarkable. And makes much much more sense than just running around killing stuff. But the problem is, that's not how it actually is in the game.
I play a monk character, and it's a blast. But I feel as though I've been misled in some way. Sure, I get plenty of xp from exploring and combat, until it dwindles down to nothing, but that's it. I was very much looking forward to getting experience from using the monk skills. Alas, this is not how it is. I have a skill usage modifier percentage, but it means nothing, because there is nothing I can do to get skill experience. This is not a problem in that it doesn't allow to level up as quickly as one might want to, so that argument is pointless. The problem is that it shows a continuing hole in the developers original design, and it's one that I was very excited about seeing. The game is just . . . less than as incredibly amazing as it could be if it had all the things promised. Kind of like that quest with Bert Davidson...exactly how long DOES it take Aria to write...? |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 12:35 PM |
| The conclusion i seem to have come to is that most skills (guess your talking about stunning fist) dont give xp because they dont want people to stand around using the skill repreatedly for xp. So its not realy a hole so to speak. Vives is also very far from completion (its just a baby) so there are no holes, just unfinished bridges. |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 12:38 PM |
We have XP for Skill-use with other classes, Monks are a little more difficult..... we're still having to think on how to best add them to that class, if at all, you will just have to bear with us a little on this one ;)
Occasionally (more than that if it involves me :P) we "forget" about little things such as the Bert Davidson Quest, so there are always going to be a few little things such as that unfinished for a time. Aria has also been absent until recently, so we'll look into finishing up that Quest soon.
In Short..... Vives will ALWAYS be a kinda Work-In-Progress..... with plently of updates and new features, some things will get "forgotten" and for this we apologise..... but then again we're not in this for the money, nor are professional game developers, we're in it for FUN!
It's not per se, a "hole in our original design" from our (the admins/builders/coders) perspective..... rather just something we are still "Working out" :)
Cheers
Ara |
Vives Screenshots!
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 12:52 PM |
It seems to me there would be balance issues if every class had a skill they could use.
I've not found the XP system too hard nor too easy. It's easy to complain when you are having a hard time getting to the higher levels that you want. But that's what makes the higher levels in Vives MEANINGFUL, you simply have to put in alot of time and effort to achieve them. I have 231 hours logged into Vives and I've just recently aquired my 10th level. I could still be 5th level and wouldn't care, Vives is about RP and interaction, not XP garnering
As the saying goes: It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game.
EDIT: Fixed numerous spelling mistakes |
I'm The Cult of Personality. |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 12:55 PM |
First of all, all I have to say is that I am definitely going to post more often, especially after seeing the awesome and wicked fast response I got. Wow. As much as I liked Vives before, let me tell you...
Ok, so it's a 'bridge', not a 'hole'. I can accept that. BUT, if you the experience system worked the way it was supposed to, you wouldn't have certain problems.
Take 'stunning fist' for example. This is a wonderfully perfect example. Oooh, I love this. Ok. You are a new monk. So your skill usage modifier is whatever, like 75% or something. You go out, and use stunning fist. Now it might work, it might not. Personally, I think it makes more RP sense to get XP for it, even if it doesn't work, because it shows that you're still learning, even if you're not succesful. But maybe not, maybe it's better that you don't get XP, whatever. So you get xp for it. But shouldn't the XP dwindle, like other kinds of XP. So you get x amount of XP the first time, then it becomes less and less, until you get just a little bit every time. This is furthermore awesome because at level 1, you can only use stunning fist once, then you have to rest to have it back again. So in some ways it is self-limiting in how quickly you can get xp.
The only problem is the level of decline in XP. I don't think it should drop off as quickly as combat xp. And I'll tell you why. I like the idea of gaining experience MORE from doing things that are essential to your class than from just fighting, or even exploring. Now this does not mean that we should get more XP per usage, but that the decay in xp would be lesser than those other means.
That is how I envisioned the Vives xp system when I first read about it. I hoped that it would be that way because I feel that really pushes each class to be more what that class is, not just a wizard who resorts to fighting, but uses magic more than anything else. Rouges rouge, monks monk, rangers range, that sort of thing. |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 12:58 PM |
And furthermore, in respone to Vandle's post, I am really friggin tired of people blathering on about "It's about the rp, not the xp" whenever a discussion about the xp system comes up. If it was about the xp, we would all go to another server. We're not discussing MORE xp here, just BETTER xp.
And no slight to you Vandle, you were just the last person to make this argument. I like you, especially in game. |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 01:09 PM |
Let me slap and paste the post I made within the "Experience..." Thread concerning monks for all you people that chose not to read it:
If I am not mistaken, Monks get a high exploration %, somewhere around 80%-85% if I am correct. One can look at it a lot of different ways, as XP tends to fit a class niche. For instance, Rangers are part of the "Warrior" division of classes, yet they only get 75% combat XP, due to the fact they get 100% exploration. Though they are mainly there for fighting, they do not get 100% fighting. Fighters, on the other hand, get 100% fighting, but the POOREST exploration XP %. All in all I believe Monks are the most rounded in terms of %, gaining wisdom, insight, and experience from ALL sources in an "average" amount to fit the monk way of looking at life, as opposed to most of the other classes that have high % in one area, and very low ones in others.
Sooo let's take a look to see how this works, in reality:
Monks get more fighting XP than Mages
Monks get more fighting XP than Rogues
Monks get more exploration XP than Fighters
Monks get more crafting XP than Rangers
Monks get more ability usage XP than Barbarians
Well looky that! Gosh darn they get more of almost every single thing than most other classes. As I said, the monk is meant to be a rounded, average % character, their %'s more split evenly between all aspects, meaning more of a 3/2/2/3 ratio than 6/1/2/1. In reality it all adds up the SAME, just more across the board. Sure, monks have it hard early due to equipment, and low dmg from their fists, but I don't recall other classes getting such a broad, universal amount of average XP from ALL ASPECTS, as well as getting free feats, increased damage, etc.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 01:16 PM |
| Dont forget, monks are one of the hardest classes to hit. If i was a monk i would probably go the way of Improved expertise and do everything i can to either knock opponents down or renber them unable to hit back and let my buddies do the dammage (face it, their fist just dont compare to a flaming great sword). |
mannaka no
ana ni sounyuu
awari kana |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 01:20 PM |
I agree with your point, but again I claim that this is not about MORE xp, but BETTER xp. And I am completely ignorant about crafting xp. I tried it a little, and only got 1 xp. So maybe that is more the rangers, but that would mean rangers get no xp from crafting.
So what you are saying is that monks get more ability usage xp than barbarians? FASCINATING. Let's review. Never before has a monk ever gotten xp for using an ability. So I would extrapolate that to mean that if a Barbarian used rage, or some such ability, he would actually have experience DEDUCTED from his character!?! Wowzers! |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 01:21 PM |
Flaming greatsword = 2d6+1d6+1+Str of 1.5. Average fighter strength at the time of finding such a greatsword is about 20, at level 12-14. Damage is 11-25, with only +1 enchantment besides the fire, doing 3 attacks a round. A monk of same level (let's say level 14), does 4 attacks per round, at around the same attack bonus, doing about the same damage. After these levels, Monks just blast through it anyhow, getting up to 1d20 fists in the end, PLUS whatever their gloves do (An average of +2 to +3 to attack with 1d6 of some elemental damage), as well as many combat feats for free. There's a reason monks start slow and weak.
Also, classes never are able to get negative XP, such as in your rage scenario. Test before talking please.
~Fenarisk |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 06:56 PM |
I was making a jocular point about no one but rogues getting skill usage xp.
Lighten up before talking please and get a sense of humor. |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 17 Jan 2004 11:56 PM |
Well Fen unfortunately that is not correct =), monks are still prey weak around level 12, and no they cant be compared to a fighter using a great sword, if you want to test it we can make it IG, you'll see your wrong. BUT that doesnt give reason to Gideon, I played a monk to level 12 and yes it was hard, but it was even hardest before, now its much easier. Monks skills were debated already and in we agreed they dont need it, and theres not only rogues geting skills xp.
Get a sence of humor? What about YOU get a comun sence? It seems you dont have it the more posts I read, more flaming ones I see. Do us a favor make constructive opinions or shut up. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 18 Jan 2004 05:58 AM |
Get a sence of humor? What about YOU get a comun sence? It seems you dont have it the more posts I read, more flaming ones I see. Do us a favor make constructive opinions or shut up.
Harsh, Ice. As you stated, they are his opinions, and he has a right to them. Even if sometimes they could be phrased better, that doesn't make him any less entitled to them.
I'd say a lvl 12 monk is a match for a level 12 fighter, though.
BAB Saves- Fort Ref Will
Fighter 12/7/2 8 4 4
Monk 9/6/3 8 8 8
(Flurry) 7/4/1/-1
The Monk has rolled a d8 for hp, the fighter d10. The fighter has, on average and not counting CON bonus or feat choices, 12 more hp.
They have equal attacks per round, the fighter at a higher AB. The monk can choose to have an extra attack per round, as shown in the "flurry" column.
Final AB
Fighter- 20 STR is fair for a lvl 12 fighter.
+21/+16/+11, damage 2d6+9+3
Monk- 20 DEX, likewise
+19/+16/+13, damage 1d12+1+3 (Can flurry for extra attacks)
Both are likely to have similiar access to weapons and armour, so I will assume a +3 amulet, +3 armour, +3 cloak. Both have +3 sword/gloves. The monk has +4 to DEX from items, the fighter +2 to STR.
AC
The fighters AC is likely to be: 10+1+8+3+3+3= 28 (Assumes 12 or higher DEX)
The monks AC is more difficult to calculate. I will assume that they have 20 DEX and 16 WIS.
10+7+3+3+3+3+2= 31.
If you factor in boots of the Sun Soul +2, this AC can be 33.
Feats:
The Fighter can take extra combat feats in order to increase their combat prescence. The Fighter has more feats, the monk, however, has some unique feats. A fighter has 7 extra feats at this stage.
The Monk gains special feats, and has 11 extra feats at this stage.
Barnas' conclusion on this:
The Monk is easily a match for a fighter at level 12. The monk and the fighter could duel, and it would be a toss up. The Monk's higher AC ofsets the fighter's higher AB.
In a non dueling scenario, however, the monk is the -clear- winner. The monk moves much faster than the fighter, and has incredible all round saves- looking at about +13 against mind affecting spells, +10 fort ETC. The Fighter will still get feared by a CR 7 mummy.
The Monk is immune to all poisons and diseases. The monk has -improved- evasion. The monk is likely to be able to make thier deflect arrows save every time at this stage, and thus is immune to one missile attack a round. They also have cleave for free, and can deal with mobs much better than a fighter with a greatsword.
-Barnas |
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Re: Skill use xp?
Posted: 18 Jan 2004 09:31 AM |
| We can try it easy let Xie and Vandle duel and we will see. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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