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Party time.
Posted: 28 Jun 2006 03:25 PM |
From my handful of experiences with the groups of adventuring sorts here, it strikes me that very few of you know how to actually party-up for truly effective adventuring. I have died EVERY TIME that I've gone out. It sucks. Every bit of XP I gain is lost, plus a goodly portion of my gold, and usually for the sole, stupid reason that whoever is in charge of the party can't keep a hold of his crew. I'm going to be level 6 for years. So, here's some tips that I would almost go so far as to call basic rules for good adventuring.
1. Don't separate. If you start in a group, stay in a group. The only things that ought to take you away from your party whilst you are spelunking into yon Dungeon o' Doom is an OOC concern, or perhaps something in the adventure forces you to have to forge ahead, as with scouting or trap-disarming. If you split off from your group to rush ahead as though you can take on the forces of evil with the awesome force of your mighty, vorpal penis, you not only run the risk of getting yourself killed (or immasculated) but you deprive your party of your skills. Or your penis. Whichever. Above all, don't abandon people in hostile areas if at all possible. If you know you have to log off in a half an hour, time your adventuring accordingly.
2. Specialize your skills The entire purpose of diversifying your party is to bring in a wide range of skills,allowing everyone to contribute something different. A group of five fighter types is vulnerable, as is a group of nothing but mages. Talk to your party members BEFORE you go out, and coordinate who can do what, and at what time their skills may be used most effectively. Area of effect spells are NO GOOD once the melee people have rushed in to lay the smack-down on the Enemy. Do them before, and make sure they are in an order that makes sense. Have the archers throw in cover-fire while you are doing your AoE spells, and allow the enemy to come in closer before the melee guys charge in. If the enemy is more than half a screen away, use ranged weapons. The shorter the distance that the sword-weilders have to run, the sooner they can start hacking away; any fighter-types imitating cavalry for a distance charge is going to just draw an Attack of Opportunity.
3. Buff at a reasonable time. Okay, so some of you out there are epic-level or near-epic-level mages and can cast bufdfs six hours before the fight starts without having to worry. Most of us aren't. Save the buffs until the enemy is, at least, known to be within the vicinity. That way, those of us who depend on those buffs to survive aren't in the midst of a fight when the buff-spell decides to wear off.
4. Don't be afraid to run away. Okay, so you've lost all but two of your party members, and there's six skeletal warriors in the next room, not to mention that there are trapped doors between you and the treasure and the rogue is, presently, impaled on something sharp and pointy. You're four levels down in the dungeon, and you've only got one camping kit left to rest with so that you can get your spells/skills back to ensure a moderate chance of survival back to the surface. This is the end of the quest! You have lost the level! Game over; try again later. Regardless of what you may think is "in character" for your bravadao, take-no-prisoners adventurer to do, this is also a game and YES, when you are fighting the mechanics of the game in a pre-set sitaution, you can LOSE. You can't lose with role-play, but you CAN lose on a dungeon crawl. It happens. Get over it. Resurrect whoemever you can, apologize to the rest, and get your butt back home. It's okay to lose; just use it as a learning experience and try a different tactic later.
5. Bring a bard. Okay, so this one is just a pet-peeve of mine. Bards are great! Bards give you extra power and initiative at just the right moment! Seek them out specifically! The sucky thing about being a bard is that, at low levels, you aren't skilled enough to really help the hero-types who are high-level enough to keep you alive, so you end up never gaining those levels you need in order to be of any help. We have no HP; we have no AC. But we sure as heck make any adventure ten times more enjoyable! So bring along a bard, and don't consider us as expendable! Thank you. (This message brought to you by VIBRATe: The Vives Institute for Bardic Respect and AdvancemenT.)
6. Know your enemy. While this is not always possible, nine times out of ten someone in your party is going to know what the next spawn will be, or generally what to expect. Organize your spells and skills accordingly. There are several blanket "good for any occasion" spells and buffs, but there are all kinds of monsters out there. Anti-magic users is one of the rare ones, but certainly one of the toughest.
[moderators note: 6th point added in] |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 28 Jun 2006 04:17 PM |
*claps exhuberantly*
Bravo! Bravo!
Great points. I think I share much of your consternation because early on I didn't respect the nature of both the xp hit on respawn and the decreasing xp per repeated encounter. RPing my character the way I've chosen (I think I've really hamstrung the guy) I'm running out of options for advancement. I'll be 5th level forever at this rate too.
An additional point that I'd like to review and maybe discuss (ie certainly tell me if I'm off base here), party with groups about the same level of experience. I've gone adventuring through the Kobai partied with two other fellows my level and one really high level guide earning 4 xp for extremely powerful critters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but next time I encounter them at a more appropriate level, they will be at a reduced value. Maybe it's better if I find a group of stalwart adventurers of my same level to join up with to face creatures more of our ability to handle, we all get a good xp value for our encounters, and it's not so much like bird watching (meaning your character plays more of an integral and capable part). The times I have teamed up with similar levels have been by far the best.
Thanks for the great post Marlena |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 28 Jun 2006 05:57 PM |
Regarding the reduced xp for partying with high level guides:
The way I look at it - partying up is a mechanic appropriate for going on a quest together or joining in for a DM'd event. Unless you are doing so, think twice. An additional problem by the way that large parties cause is LAG. If you are just going on a random trek through the desert with a high level Angel/Guide, I think it is better not to form a party at all. And this is how I play now. The result of not partying up with "Angels" is that my characters do not receive reduced xp for creatures which they do actually kill. And I do not miss the paltry xp I was getting for the monsters that I did not slay.
When I started playing on Vives, partying up with characters of equal level was not an option, as there were almost no characters my level back in February and March. Fortunately we now have many new players on Vives, and it seems that lately all the lower levels are well represented.
As much as I like to roleplay with many of the established characters, I do not have as much fun adventuring with them. What is the challenge in facing minotaurs when one of the party members can kill each with one hit? I think it is much more fun to adventure with characters roughly your level without an angel to bail you out of trouble. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
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Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 28 Jun 2006 06:08 PM |
A group of five fighter types is vulnerable, as is a group of nothing but mages.
*Kills everything withen a five mile radias with the group of mages then looks up* Ah, what were you saying?
Heh, though seriously a good post. Good idea's there. *Is reminded of their old days when they'd take the time to lay out archer postions and healing support for battles..* |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 28 Jun 2006 07:21 PM |
A group of five fighter types is vulnerable, as is a group of nothing but mages.
*Kills everything withen a five mile radias with the group of mages then looks up* Ah, what were you saying?
Well, yes; it is rather dependant on who the Enemy is. I should have put that as another tip.
6. Know your enemy While this is not always possible, nine times out of ten someone in your party is going to know what the next spawn will be, or generally what to expect. Organize your spells and skills accordingly. There are several blanket "good for any occasion" spells and buffs, but there are all kinds of monsters out there. Anti-magic users is one of the rare ones, but certainly one of the toughest. |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 28 Jun 2006 07:27 PM |
All you need to kill a mage is to surprise them and knock them down. This can be accomplished by something as weak as a dire lion or dire wolf - as one of my characters has been knocked down by a dire lion and mauled. I subsequently gave a druid character the knockdown feat. Its lots of fun to knock things down as a bear.
Of course this method works on any character who does not have discipline.
It is the PnP equivalent to grappling, and quite nasty if executed correctly. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 28 Jun 2006 10:50 PM |
If anyone knew anything about Romulus, normal adventuring rules DO NOT APPLY.
BEWARE ALL THOSE WHO FEAR DYING - FEAR THE GROUPAGE OF ROMULUS.
My character loves to watch you get injured before he steps in to help,he likes to analyze your pain - take in your suffering, then swoop in when the moment is right to bask in the heroism of the moment.
He also enjoys LONG, PAINFUL suffering. Why use spells that kill your enemy in one hit? When you can torture them with plenty of useless debilitating spells before delivering that final kill.
Romulus can be arrogant at times, and charge ahead of the group - claiming to know areas he has never been in, and proclaiming superior tracking skills to that of the ranger (good luck!)
My only advice , is that if you are just semi-friends with Romulus, enjoy the respawn button. If you are deep friends with Romulus, you'll find him and his skeletal minions a welcome addition to any party :). |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 29 Jun 2006 01:58 AM |
I'd like to add one that I feel is the reason most of the others break down. 'Know when to lead and when to follow'. To many times people do not know when to follow and listen to one leader. Too many parties have 3 people acting as the leader some of the time, then not listening to stategies or trying to do everything themselves, ending up in getting the whole party into trouble. Sometimes you are the leader and make the hard decisions and make mistakes getting people killed, but too often its a wanna be leader making a mistake that gets himself killed and then blames it on the other leaders
That and Number seven or eight should be never bring a gnome, but thats just common sense |
~ Nay'Finn |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 29 Jun 2006 02:18 AM |
Ooh, good point. SOmething I like is when the most CHARISMATIC character is made leader, not just the highest level character. Play according to the stats and the characters! It's fun! Let the paladin lead - iot's what they're for. Let the rongue make the decisions - he'll know how to stay alive in those trap-infested dungeons! Give the sorcerer the reigns! He'll attract all the attention of the monsters, allowing you all to flank in from the sides! Mayb enot totally practical for the mechanics, but it makes for better character dynamics, I think.
/2 more cents. |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 29 Jun 2006 04:06 AM |
All you need to kill a mage is to surprise them and knock them down. This can be accomplished by something as weak as a dire lion or dire wolf...
Hey, hey, hey... what about us Monks?
Nathan and Marlena also voiced out some thoughts of mine.
Why let the strongest character lead? Because he can kill everything? Where's the fun in that? Just because he's ridiculously strong means he's smart, charming and a intelligent enough to lead a party? No, being strong and being a capable leader don't overlap. Let the people with the proper Ability Scores do their thing, even if they're 10 levels lower than you (considering,of course, they RP accordingly). Don't play your character as something they aren't, give the other characters a chance to emphasize their areas of expertise (be it Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma, and so forth).
Also, even if you know that, with the game mechanics, you can deal with all the monsters in the area just by rushing forward and swinging your sword with no tactics what-so-ever, doesn't mean that IC, in RP, you can't or shouldn't plan a strategy.
1) It makes more sense, RP-wise.
2) It's thinking a bit more broadly, instead of just in terms of game mechanics.
3) It's funner. It's RP. We're here for it, aren't we?
Think of how to flank - even if, Mechanics-wise, it brings no change.
Think of how to conserve your energy, even if stamina isn't expressed really IG. For example, let the Archers and Mages draw the enemies closer. That way, the Fighters don't get tired running all the way to the enemy (with their armor, no less). What more, the enemy would be weakened by the arrows and magic by the time he reaches the front-line --- the fighters. It would mean his swings are weaker, his movements slower, and in general a much easier foe to handle. Sure, mechanics-wise there's no difference in the AB and Damage, but it's RP, it's fun.
P.S.
I got the chance to only go on one big adventure so far, so I don't know how it is usually. |
Ayntherian Tîwele - Elven Monk, earnest student of Ki and the Martial Arts
His Diary - Updated at 26/8/2006 with ENTRY VII |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 29 Jun 2006 04:44 AM |
As someone who might make the mistake of taking this ever so slightly personally (people die around Lucius all the time, and I suppose its happened to Karli twice), I would suggest that there is an optimum party size, and sadly it's no more than 5. It is also probably all people within a few levels of each other, since you don't get a false sense of security about what you will be facing, and CAN face, simply because one of the members of the party can handle all those things.
When you get a party of eight or nine, and everyone starts talking and emoting, it's not very easy to see what's being said by whoever the 'leader' is. It's also difficult to see whose hit points are dangerously low if you're running around with a heal kit and have to keep scrolling up and down the party list to see who's hurt.
I enjoy going out with a lot of other people. I thought the dynamic of the group that went up to Fiirkrag was great. I thought there was a lot of banter, a lot of fighting, some close calls, and a lot of fun. There was one casualty, a climbing injury, and a very simple plan that Cora called Lucius out on once, which was that nobody walk in front of Talion. Anything more complicated than that in a group of eight that includes levels 3 to 20 is asking a lot.
One last thing I would suggest: if you're in a party that's moving at a pace too fast for you, not stopping to tell you what to expect, generally behaving in a way you think is stupid and is going to result in the death of your character, quit the party and leave. Myself and two others did that on a dm event where it seemed our role was to run to keep up to everyone, and do little else, and when we finally caught up to them half the party was laying dead, so we turned around and left. I don't think at the time we were missed, and we didn't get any juicy xp bonus for finishing things with everyone else, but I respect those other two a lot for doing something IC - trying to stay alive - rather than compromise that and act like lemmings because it was an 'EVENT'.
Oh, and a HUUUUGE pet peeve of mine. If the party can handle everything, you don't need a summon, nor do you need an animal companion, a familiar, or some stupid creature that you charmed. It is one more thing cluttering up the party bar, one more thing to contribute to server lag, and, really, if you are in one of those multi-level parties, your dire badger isn't going to turn the tide of the battle. Really. And yes, since it's going to be pointed out at some point, if you have a spellcasting summon, it is more likely to kill members of your party than your foes - and that includes Balors. My own experience, from causing dirtnaps of allies as a mage bringing along a summon, is that you have to tell them not to cast spells, and, in the case of water elementals, not to use their drown attack. Don't summon them in the middle of battle, since you won't be able to give such instructions.
So...*wryly*...as someone who was called the single biggest non-evil character killer a couple days back...I do have an opinion on this too, and did spend most of my time on this server as a low-level character suffering through the same things that you are talking about.
Cheers,
RB |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 29 Jun 2006 05:17 AM |
I don't think at the time we were missed, and we didn't get any juicy xp bonus for finishing things with everyone else, but I respect those other two a lot for doing something IC - trying to stay alive - rather than compromise that and act like lemmings because it was an 'EVENT'. ...
Oh, and a HUUUUGE pet peeve of mine. If the party can handle everything, you don't need a summon, nor do you need an animal companion, a familiar, or some stupid creature that you charmed. ...
So...*wryly*...as someone who was called the single biggest non-evil character killer a couple days back...I do have an opinion on this too, and did spend most of my time on this server as a low-level character suffering through the same things that you are talking about.
Cheers,
RB
A) Agreed, its just too bad losing out on Other role play and XP because you are role playing your character
2) But for my druid my wolf is part of role playing my character , but yeah summons and especially 'charmed' creatures are asking for trouble. Nope, don't want to hear the 'but I can control them arguement, everytime with out fail they cause problems sometimes just minor but too many times its fatal.
F) Recently (ok its been a month or more now) I've been trying to reenforce you as the single leader, usually because its been your idea/your quest and you know where we're going. When I've been with you the people we've lost have made one or more of the first few mistakes, mostly charaged off ahead to do something you specifically said we should not do because we might die, then plus two others due to underestimating our enemies. And when /I/ accuse you of being dangerous or whatever... its mostly IC ... mostly :P |
~ Nay'Finn |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 29 Jun 2006 10:10 AM |
I just wanted to say that not once while out seeing Vives with Lucius have I dirtnapped when I wasn't behaving like a stupid git. I've always found him completely capable of providing protection when cooler heads prevail.
But I think that would be true in many cases. Some of the group adventures I've been on seem more like raids with everyone fanning out to grab the most loot. The ones that are more controlled have been more fun, though with a high level guide providing the protection it's not so much a team effort as going sightseeing as a tag-along while the higher levels take care of some personal business. I can't say "oooh, let's look over here" and explore.
The most fun I've had was with a mage about my level and as a pair we cleaned out a dungeon that we would have been entirely unable to do individually. She cast protections and enhancements to my fighter to make him about ten times more effective, then I protected the front while she supported with arrows. It was a solid team and it was a blast. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 29 Jun 2006 03:42 PM |
Aww... *pats Lucius*
Don't take it personally. It isn't meant to be so. It's a universal theme, and trust me, I've died far more times not being in a party with you than being in a party with you.
Wizards are so touchy! |
"I've got a sword and it's a good one, but all the bleedin' thing can do is keep someone alive, listen. A song can keep someone immortal!" - Cohen the Barbarian |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 30 Jun 2006 06:19 PM |
5. Bring a bard. Okay, so this one is just a pet-peeve of mine. Bards are great! Bards give you extra power and initiative at just the right moment! Seek them out specifically! The sucky thing about being a bard is that, at low levels, you aren't skilled enough to really help the hero-types who are high-level enough to keep you alive, so you end up never gaining those levels you need in order to be of any help. We have no HP; we have no AC. But we sure as heck make any adventure ten times more enjoyable! So bring along a bard, and don't consider us as expendable! Thank you. (This message brought to you by VIBRATe: The Vives Institute for Bardic Respect and AdvancemenT.)
Bring a rogue while you're at it...
I wish all those other classes would stop taking levels in rogue so they can disable traps and open locks by themselves, and instead, secure the services of a pure rogue. But I certainly understand the reasons for doing so.
Way back when Cora was young and innocent... *coughs* she went on plenty of adventures with all manner of adventurer... and pretty much amounted to supplying an occasional extra bolt in the side of whatever monster or bad guy we were facing... and once in a while actually getting in a sneak attack.
But more often than I would have liked, I would end up getting chased around by said monster after it turned its attention to Cora, desperately trying not to get hit. (since one or two hits would do her in)
So there was a lot of running around like a chicken with its head cut off, trying not to die, once the enemy got it in mind to do her harm... waiting for the other party members to take care of the situation.
And THEN... much more often than I would have liked... we would come up to a trap or a lock... and I would think "cool, I can actually be useful"
...only to have the big club wielding, neanderthall half-orc disable or unlock it, without any discussion whatsoever. *sigh*
OR... there was an extremely rare occasion (only two come to mind, but then, my memory sucks) when whoever was leading the group would look at Cora, and in an attempt to include her, let her put her skills to use, (which I very much apreciated the gesture) ...only to not have enough skill yet. Grrrrr
So it wasn't too long before I learned that rogues had little to no value in an adventure party... especialy low level rogues. So then my main reason for going out adventuring with others was just to see the sights, make a few smart arsed comments, try to stay alive, and otherwise just enjoy the RP that would arise.
Now, some of this had to do with the way the party dynamics were viewed by the players back then... maybe it's different now.
This thread seems to indicate that now it might be more viable to attempt to make specialized PC and rely more on other characters to balance out the skills/abilities. Though, still... RL gets in the way, and there are plenty of times when you can play, when these others that would compliment you nicely cant... so you go out and try stuff in an unbalanced group... and die. Or you go it alone... and die. Or you [insert any of the infinate reasons people come up with for doing stupid things]... and die.
Because you -like- this character you have made, and would like to see them advance. So you want to play -them- and not make some alternate character that is a bit more self reliant, but lacking in character development, just so you can have something to do when no one else is around.
But really... if it wasn't for all the wonderful RP that came from Coras involvement with the Black Hand, and her relationship with Johe Jaxon, I would have put her on the shelf and created a different PC. Because, truely there was NO reason to play a rogue from a party dynamics / gameplay mechanics point of view.
All that rambling to say... real life gets in the way of us making the most of our adventuring. Due to different play times, and the character whims of other players (as in, what kind of character they want to create and play), there are very very very few times that you have a balanced party at your disposal... and even then, there may be more interest in RP, or too much IC distrust/disagreement between characters to really make use of that party.
Adventuring is fun, especially when done properly... in a balanced party, with planning and preparation. But that is a rare thing in a PW such as Vives, because of all the factors stacked up against it. So when it -does- happen... enjoy it.
But wether or not it happens, stay true to your character... realizing of course, that this may cause it NOT to happen in some cases... but if you're not doing things that would be in your characters nature, then whats the point?
And if you really MUST roam the world and see and do everything, and wish to do so with like minded adventurers... dont create a character that has a major neurosis / mental problems (insanity) / is socialy inept / hates everyone / a superiority complex / a debilitating drug habbit / etc. etc.
though... where is the fun in -that-? *wry smile*
and wow... I didn't expect to write this much. Sorry for all the rambling/ranting.
I'll shut up now and go back to my Vives break. |
"I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt
My characters n portraits |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 30 Jun 2006 09:56 PM |
Oh, so then you're saying my depressive, alcoholic fighter prone to seasickness won't have an easy time of it.
In fact, I was looking at the Vives map the other day and realized that there are places my character most likely will never see due to the RP restrictions I put on him. So I made another character with a lot less baggage so I could see what Mystique looks like. Not only that but sometimes I'm just going to want to go with everyone on a trip; more or less Vives will create that character more whereas my main character was created by his background and now must mesh it with the environment.
My main character is going to keep on swinging; I just have to remember that the hardships I experience are my own dang fault and RP them out effectively. The other guy might be a little more outgoing and worldly. It'll be interesting to see how they individually develop.
So I guess in relation to what Kat was saying above, I'm going to keep the character I like and add a character that Vives might like better as well. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Party time.
Posted: 03 Jul 2006 01:16 AM |
I just wanted to say that not once while out seeing Vives with Lucius have I dirtnapped when I wasn't behaving like a stupid git. I've always found him completely capable of providing protection when cooler heads prevail.
Oh, it's not that Lucius is inept... he's just unlucky, is all. It's like any superstition - it has no basis in logic, except for a mountain of emperical evidence. There's no logical reason to think twice about a black cat crossing your path, except for those seven times when right afterwards you were hit by a bus... it's not that I avoid adventuring with Lucius, it's just that, when he comes up with an idea for a quest, I don't get too attached to my most recently earned XP... ;)
Just razzlin you, RB. You guys have NO idea how hard it is watching the board, seeing who's online, and not being able to log on. I'll be seeing you all July 5th.
-VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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