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Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 17 Jun 2006 10:59 AM |
Like many here I'm sure I've been playing D&D for a long time, from 1st edition to today and when I found out about NWN (not long ago actually) I thought my prayers had been answered in terms of meshing media and the gaming experience. I'd say it's about 50% true, but in any case NWN being what it is and has become is alone quite fantastic.
One aspect of the mechanics of NWN that I've always considered unfortunate is the point buy system which has bedeviled me both in theoretical consideration and in character creation. I understand it is used for balance and on its face I can accept that because it keeps people from making PGing uber characters, but it seems to me that based on the class you wish to play character stats will all trend in a particular way meaning an effective fighter is usually dumb and ugly, an effective wizard is weak and ugly (or unwise), an effective cleric is clumsy and unhealthy. I know there is a little more variation than I suggest, but particularly with fighters to be effective you should have high strength, high dexterity, and high constitution leaving all the other attributes to suffer. (Quite ridiculous that an intelligent, strong, centered, and healthy individual has to consequently be an unpopular butter-fingers)
So, in game, if you recognize an individual as a fighter type, chances are good they aren't too bright. The stereotypical assumptions from character to character are fine, because that might be an effective RP situation, but the same assumptions from player to player are not. Because we are not privy to each others' stats (if we are I am completely unaware and my point is invalidated) as players we have to assume the natures of our fellow players unless we are somehow told or it can be effectively demonstrated through roleplaying, but in a casual exchange such usually does not come across. I feel that on some occasions when encountering other players their expectations do not match the presentation of my character and perhaps think I am not appropriately RPing.
In an effort to play the character I wanted I've set my stats so that my highest score is not of the fighters' usual triad (one of which is actually matched with my lowest score) and I've picked up some skills and feats that are rather ineffectual for my class to support my background, all of which are invisible to a casual observer. Players who've gotten to know my character IG might know where I'm coming from. I guess I'm more of less whining about the devil in the details of the game engine and how it effects our reactions as players.
In any case, I have a great time every time I log on, even if it's just to sit around in a pub and stew in my existential misery and I've met a lot of really great people in the short time I've been on. Just wanted to share some thoughts and hear what others thought about the topic. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 17 Jun 2006 01:03 PM |
You skil/feat selection is not hidden from the DM.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to if you think others are doing things right and assuming other's stats. It's really not necessary.
Anyway, I've looked at a lot of charaters though the day and I can say that that I've seen fighters with STR of 10, sorcerers with CHA of 13, wizards with STR of 16 and on and on. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 17 Jun 2006 01:44 PM |
That's all reassuring. Do we have access to view other character's attributes? or are you a DM?
And I agree totally that it's not necessary; it's academic.
Though I still feel that balancing attribute scores on a fulcrum creates an unnatural trend regardless of class. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 17 Jun 2006 03:36 PM |
It depends on how you want to look at it sometimes. I found with one of my characters (a ranger) that I could use this to my advantage, and to represent his growth over time - I started him out with a wisdom score so low that he couldn't cast spells when he reached sufficient level, so my ability points went into that to reflect his gradually learning "wisdom" over time.
I've seen and known other pc's here in Vives that do much the same, but yes it can lead to what you describe, but I found I had more fun doing it the hard way . |
"Mistakes have been made, others will be blamed..." |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 17 Jun 2006 03:43 PM |
| The way I look at it, the choice is between a point system and a bunch of disgruntled geeks arguing over who got the cheesiest rolls on character creation. It's hard to make an unconventional character who can survive the bear-filled world of Vives, though... it's a compromise. |
True solace is finding none, which is to say, it is everywhere.
-Gretel Ehrlich |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 17 Jun 2006 04:03 PM |
I play a decent amount of PnP as well, and pushed point buy even during second edition. I think it is vastly preferable to randomly generated stats. You get to make the character you want. IMHO I think dice rolling for stats works for the quick styl RPG that early D&D was. It was a dice game. Characters were archetypal and simple. Point buy gives you the chance to craft your character carefully. I recognize the dangers you see in it, but I think on this server it is not too much of a problem. Even from a strictly power gaming point of view, every stat matters. A stupid fighter will never be a good crafter - and thus start out poorly equipped.
And anyway since this is a role playing server, I become obsessed with what stat mix would make sense for the type of character I want to role play. And it seems to me that most other players do the same. |
Famous last words:
Mykal> it's my new wireless router.
* > Mykal has quit (Ping timeout)
Vulpina> Hey!! IRC didn't boot m.....
* > Vulpina has quit (Exit: DarkMyst WebChat) |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 17 Jun 2006 04:45 PM |
I think I was derelict in approaching the issue in terms of powergamers and appropriate stats for classes because it is quite apparent that many here like the challenge of a tough game and hard journey to tell a good story as much as I do.
So then, flat out, not taking mechanics and game equity into account, in terms of realism, (which every author pays homage to even in fantasy) doesn't it wrankle you at all that if you choose to be, say stronger, that automatically lessens your ability to be more wise or nimble or any of the other attributes. The relationship is interdependent; but should it be? If you wanted to max out an ability score, the balance tilts and your other stats suffer for it; so all musclebound heroes are really poorly something. But why? Can there be no natural "paragons of society?" Just the idea that somehow all of the attributes are linked and balanced just doesn't seem right. I could appreciate it more with a d4-1 variation up or down per stat to start just to account for chaos at work and then buy your points from there.
But then hit points are anathema to realism, so I'll just play the game, have a good time and shut up. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 17 Jun 2006 08:01 PM |
Can there be no natural "paragons of society?
Sure there can be, but how can you allow players to play the 'paragons' instead of leaving that job to the NPCs, without causing grief and jealousy being accused with favoritism and such?
Heck, I dunno, maybe this community is so good it's beyond that, but so far I haven't seen one that isn't. |
Ayntherian Tîwele - Elven Monk, earnest student of Ki and the Martial Arts
His Diary - Updated at 26/8/2006 with ENTRY VII |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 17 Jun 2006 09:30 PM |
Yeah, it's hard not to boost your stats or potential when you can. That's what magic items are all about. Question: Is there or has there been anyone in Vives who has refused to use magic items? Interested to know.
As a DM I prefer to randomize stat rolls; let the dice fall and deal with the results; the player will adapt the character to the stats and that development is the fun part. Besides tell a good story that can be RP'd in well and you'll have fun anyway. Anyone can be a hero; it's not the numbers that make a good character or a good game. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 17 Jun 2006 11:13 PM |
It depends on how you want to look at it sometimes. I found with one of my characters (a ranger) that I could use this to my advantage, and to represent his growth over time - I started him out with a wisdom score so low that he couldn't cast spells when he reached sufficient level, so my ability points went into that to reflect his gradually learning "wisdom" over time.
I've seen and known other pc's here in Vives that do much the same, but yes it can lead to what you describe, but I found I had more fun doing it the hard way.
I feel your pain. I play my character to what I believe he should be, no matter what his stats are.
Romulus is a wizard, but I consider him to be quite charismatic (Many will disagree lol). He also is in a half-undead state, and has mediocre strength for a gnome-wizard. I don't care what my stats are, thats what my character is - and I won't let numbers designate that.
I don't assume anything else about anyone. Great fighters can be brilliant commanders - and thats how I look at each and every character. Your stats to me are as important as to what you ate in breakfast for RL the other day (And sorry guys, I don't care about that).
You should not be limited to play your character because of what your stats will be. For mechanical reasons, you obviously won't be able to wield a sword as good, or use certain magic spells because of stats/ and feats - so you'll have to roleplay those according. But my advice would be don't EVER let random-computer-generated numbers lessen the background, or the flourish of your character - you are the creator, and the idealist by them. Not the NWN Console :)
Have Fun with it,
Rom |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 01:39 AM |
You should not be limited to play your character because of what your stats will be. For mechanical reasons, you obviously won't be able to wield a sword as good, or use certain magic spells because of stats/ and feats - so you'll have to roleplay those according. But my advice would be don't EVER let random-computer-generated numbers lessen the background, or the flourish of your character - you are the creator, and the idealist by them. Not the NWN Console :)
Uhh..your character is your stats. How is it fair for a figher to invest in combat stats and play a super intellegent charamastic character when another person invest point into the non combat stats to actually play that character. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 01:59 AM |
I think I disagree with the central theme, that it's impossible to have an "effective" character that is also not stereotypical in their weaknesses. Remember what the ability scores reflect - you don't need an 18 in a stat to be effective. A 14 STR gives you a +2 to damage, a 14 DEX gives you a -2 to AC, etc... I agree with the approach of using your bonus points as you level to mold the direction you want to head in. "Paragons" aren't born, they are made. There shouldn't be a first level character who is good at everything - rather someone good at everything should have had time to develop their natural talents and abilties to their fullest potential.
I think it's easy to forget the scale of things when you're playing amidst 15th level people who have outrageous stats. Remember, 12 is good, 14 is very good, 16 is phenomenal, and 18 is world-class (or some approximation of those).
-VK |
"You know, a gong. Large, flat object that you hit when you want things. Sort of like a waiter, but less portable."
-Radra |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 07:19 AM |
Copied from the D20 Call of Cthulhu book, concerning stats and the average Joe:
Strength
Child 4-5
Elderly Person 6-7
Weak person 8-9
Average person 10-11
Fit person 12-13
Strong person 14-15
Weightlifter 16-17
Olympic athlete (!) 18-19
Dexterity
Clumsy person 6-7
Accident-prone person 8-9
Average person 10-11
Graceful person 12-13
Circus artist 16-17
Constitution
Beridden or dying person 1
Invalid 2-3
Frail person 4-5
Puny person 6-7
Average person 10-11
Healthy person 12-13
(Everything above 14 equals horses and bears)
Intelligence
Minimum human intelligence 3
Average person 10-11
Sharp-witted person 12-13
Clever person 14-15
Genious 18-19
Wisdom
Foolhardy person 6-7
Average person 10-11
Human guru 18-19
Charisma
Shy or unassuming person 8-9
Average person 10-11
Attractive person 12-13
Take-charge type 14-15
Natural born leader 18-19
(If you got below 8, don't despair. You just equal a cat or a dog.) |
Lol = Lack of linguistics |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 09:20 AM |
I personally prefer 1st and 2nd Ed. for all things PnP. I think 3rd Ed. is so farked that I regularly burn 3rd Ed. books in effigy. (OK, I don't go that far, but I really, really don't like it.) My favorite form of character creation is roll 4d6, take the top three d6. Do this seven times. Drop the lowest. Assign these numbers as you wish. Yes, you can get some really poor rolls for all the rolls, yes, you can get really high rolls all the time. But on average you get a couple good stats, a couple poor stats, and a couple mediocre stats.
Secondly, I hate 3rd Ed. because of assuming 9 is bad. Call me old fashioned, but when a HERO (remember, we're all playing hero's here, so they're naturally supposed to be "better" than normal people) can have stats from 1 - 18, I find 9 to be perfectly average. Honestly, I hate 3rd Ed. where it makes it possible to have stats so epicly high that Gods ought tremble. Heck, I still love reading through the DDG and gazing at the Gods, with their awe-inspiring strength of 24.
Oh, and just to continue my rant on 3rd Edition... COPPER! SILVER! ELECTRUM! PLATINUM! (Need I say more?) |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 09:25 AM |
I really don't see much of a trouble...
We all agree that 14 is very good, and 16 is rare, right?
Considering you can have around 14-15 in most of your Stats, you DO end up as someone that's highly uncommon, right?
Being a Hero doesn't mean every aspect of you is amazing/uncommon. Heroes can be average thinkers, for instance - they compensate for it by having tremendous strength (of course, taking the Fighter as an example). And you can also be a sharp fighter, with not-so-tremendous strength, but still highly above average.
I really don't see a problem here, I think it's balanced.
(Also, remember you can get items to boost your ability scores and every four levels you canr aise one as well. We DO start out just at level 1, after all, and that's not exactly impressive) |
Ayntherian Tîwele - Elven Monk, earnest student of Ki and the Martial Arts
His Diary - Updated at 26/8/2006 with ENTRY VII |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 01:07 PM |
Overall, my biggest issue with point buy is not actually the degree of the stats, high or low, it's how they are directly connected through the swapping of points. Makes no sense how if one stat is high automatically the others have a degree of limitation. Each attribute is an individual descriptor not related to the others and they should be treated that way. Point buy is a great balancing tool, but life isn't always balanced; RPGs attempting a semblance at that realistic element, from 1st edition to now, have usually relied on randomness to represent that natural chaos.
Has anyone done the math on this? It seems like point buy would create some kind of a symetrical wave with the only variation from character to character being the amplitude. Just a guess. |
T'mok Gurzi
Resident Gnoll Warlord
patron for the noble yet drink addled
Timik Gorozai the Mistake |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 02:21 PM |
Hmm
Live fast , Die young
This has been the case with many heros through time.
The Greatest of all, CuCulain of the red branch was almost invincible and defended a bridge single handedly against an entire army. He died whilst still a teenager.
Achilles , also invincible, died young.
And in real life as oposed to myth
Kurt Cobain , Jimmy Hendrix, Jim Morrison , Janis Joplin, Keith Moon, All legends , all died aged 27.
Another classic example being James Dean, died 24.
Perhaps those of us who are born with more than the rest are destined to die young.
The DMs could reflect this by killing off any chrs who are above level 20 (please comment)
And now some more analogies from the world of football...
Ronaldo - Brilliant striker for brazil STR 17. DEX 17. CHR 6. (bucktoothed fat bloke)
Ronaldiniho - Genius best footballer in the world DEX 20 WIZ 18 CHR 9 (looks like a fish)
Zinedine Zidane - Genius midfielder STR17, DEX17,CHR8 (is french and has a haircut like luther)
Wayne Rooney - Saviour of English football STR20, DEX 17 , CHR 8 (He's got no neck, and he looks like Shreck)
which shows that you cant have it all
Now lets take politics
Ghandi - WIZ22 , INT20 , STR6 , CON6 (well you saw the film)
Hitler - CHR20 , CON6 (only had one ball ,the other was in the Albert Hall)
Professor Xavius - INT22 , WIZ18 , STR4 (wheel chair bound leader of the Xmen)
Tont Blair - INT18 , WIZ8 , CHR on a downward spiral of 2 points per year every year for the past 8 years (Will be remembered for siding with the bad guys)
George Bush - INT7 , CHR8 , CON6 , STR6 , DEX7 , WIZ4 ............um an exeption to the rule who must have bought his way into this list by having inherited vast sums of dubiously accumulated moneys and by using his allignment of lawfull,evil to brainwash his congregation.
Again though
back to the original subject...it just goes to show that generally you cant have it all
And those exceptions...
Well they die young...
or they've got a small thing...
probably
(think davidbeckem,sylvesterstalone,bradpitetc)
etc |
If you catch a butterfly.
You can either keep it and watch it die.
Or let it go and watch it fly away.
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 04:05 PM |
<quote> Kurt Cobain , Jimmy Hendrix, Jim Morrison , Janis Joplin, Keith Moon, All legends , all died aged 27.
Another classic example being James Dean, died 24. </qoute>
Jim Croce, Hank Williams Sr... |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 05:37 PM |
You should not be limited to play your character because of what your stats will be. For mechanical reasons, you obviously won't be able to wield a sword as good, or use certain magic spells because of stats/ and feats - so you'll have to roleplay those according. But my advice would be don't EVER let random-computer-generated numbers lessen the background, or the flourish of your character - you are the creator, and the idealist by them. Not the NWN Console :)
Uhh..your character is your stats. How is it fair for a figher to invest in combat stats and play a super intellegent charamastic character when another person invest point into the non combat stats to actually play that character.
I disagree, stats are a numbered figured assigned to you by a computer. Bad roleplaying would be to make yourself fantastic in all realms of abilities, and I just encourage people to not play by what numbers, and computer given statistics are. Romulus is what I make him, and what I want him to be - if he had an int score of -3, I'd still play him as a scholar..because thats what he is. if another person wants to feel limited by these devices, he should not play the "Fair" Card for people who look beyond such things. |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 06:03 PM |
In Vives, your stats are your character.
If you have an INT of 3, you are not a scholar.
This is the DnD system. You arn't given bonus hit points if you have 8 CON and say your character is "very tough". To the same extent, you're not supported if you have 8 INT and say your character is "very smart".
-Barnas |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 06:09 PM |
You should not be limited to play your character because of what your stats will be. For mechanical reasons, you obviously won't be able to wield a sword as good, or use certain magic spells because of stats/ and feats - so you'll have to roleplay those according. But my advice would be don't EVER let random-computer-generated numbers lessen the background, or the flourish of your character - you are the creator, and the idealist by them. Not the NWN Console :)
Uhh..your character is your stats. How is it fair for a figher to invest in combat stats and play a super intellegent charamastic character when another person invest point into the non combat stats to actually play that character.
I disagree, stats are a numbered figured assigned to you by a computer. Bad roleplaying would be to make yourself fantastic in all realms of abilities, and I just encourage people to not play by what numbers, and computer given statistics are. Romulus is what I make him, and what I want him to be - if he had an int score of -3, I'd still play him as a scholar..because thats what he is. if another person wants to feel limited by these devices, he should not play the "Fair" Card for people who look beyond such things.
The player decided the stats of the character, not a computer.
If you're playing a INT 3 character as a genious, then that's just bad RP.
Please refer to THIS thread for Vives' stance on roleplaying your stats. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 06:11 PM |
In Vives, your stats are your character.
If you have an INT of 3, you are not a scholar.
This is the DnD system. You arn't given bonus hit points if you have 8 CON and say your character is "very tough". To the same extent, you're not supported if you have 8 INT and say your character is "very smart".
-Barnas
Agree to disagree is the best we can come to than. You let numbers judge your character, and I'll let my imagination judge mine. "hit Points" are just another calculation. You can still play your character as incredibly tough - and have very little hitpoints, in my opinion. You could for example, do NON dice-rolling events. Like hitting your head through wood, roleplaying carrying things tremendous distances, showing your ability to go for longer periods without eatting/drinking. The dice you roll to do damage/take damage/cast spells - isn't how I am ruled. Stop thinking inside the box, I'm here to have fun and play a character that I want to play as I see fit - if my character has -3 everything, I will play him as I see fit. An "Ideal" roleplayed character IMO, would have access to all spells, have 0 for all stats, be able to wield all weapons/wear all armors, have average dice rolls on everything - and let that person then decide where to limit his character, and for what reason.
one gnomes, opinion. |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 06:26 PM |
All I can really say is that I've never heard of someone "Agreeing to disagree" with a DM before.
That is Vives' stance on roleplaying your stats. We think inside the box because we are not freeform roleplaying. We are playing a coherent system with contiguous rules which mean that everyone has a level playing field.
In a more general sense, I do agree with you. Points buy creation of characters is extremely limiting. It does, however, have many other advantages- parity and fairness first among them.
For that reason, on Vives, we encouage in the strongest possible sense that you RP your stats, using them as a guideline for creation of the character that you RP.
We're not going- unless it's a seriously extreme case, which has never happened- to tell you that you're doing it wrong. As the guideline thread states, what we ask is that people bear their stats in mind when RPing, which makes the world fairer for everyone.
-Barnas |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 06:48 PM |
Not trying to go away from the situation than. I am just saying, I agree that you have one way you like to do it - and thats perfectly acceptable, and I have my way. I'll personally encourage everyone here to roleplay their character as they see fit as long as you aren't ruining the fun, comfort, or respect of another persons roleplay. I was just offering my own personal insight to the original poster. I see nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, with a human being. We have two different means to accomplish the same solution - and there is nothing wrong with that.
However - I don't mean to offend the Archaic system of stat allegiance for any of our hardcore DNDers here, so I'll leave it at that. Not all of us are DNDers, but its important to note all of us are roleplayers. |
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Re: Stereotypes: point buy and RP
Posted: 18 Jun 2006 06:51 PM |
Not trying to go away from the situation than. I am just saying, I agree that you have one way you like to do it - and thats perfectly acceptable, and I have my way. I'll personally encourage everyone here to roleplay their character as they see fit as long as you aren't ruining the fun, comfort, or respect of another persons roleplay. I was just offering my own personal insight to the original poster. I see nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, with a human being. We have two different means to accomplish the same solution - and there is nothing wrong with that.
However - I don't mean to offend the Archaic system of stat allegiance for any of our hardcore DNDers here, so I'll leave it at that. Not all of us are DNDers, but its important to note all of us are roleplayers.
I'm not a DnDer and I strongly support the current method.
CHA does nothing for my character, but she has more than just a bit. Setting it to 8 and pumping those extra stats into combat abilities would have been nice, but then it's cheap to RP her as a Naruthian.
I'll personally encourage everyone here to roleplay their character as they see fit as long as you aren't ruining the fun, comfort, or respect of another persons roleplay.
And to be honest, I find it disrespectful for a CHA 8 character to be just as charactismatic as my character who has her's much higher. Also, it might not be the best idea to tell people to go against the way Vives is run according to a staff rulling. |
Juylina Komthya | Portrait - Priestess of Naruth |
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