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DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 08:48 AM |
Not a complaint, not even an aside, really...
But!
One of the catchwords I've seen lately is "Getting Good more involved in the world."
I think I've seen three or four of us using it- I think I've even used it myself. For some reason, after reading Benny's post, I started thinking about it. And I'm going to share my thoughts here, because I'm an arrogant bastard who thinks that you might actually want to know what I'm thinking.
Anyway. Getting Good more involved in the world. Is this a good thing?
Well, no. I don't think it is. Vives is a world where the majority of the PC population are, ultimately, Good, Good-leaning neutral, or Good-leaning Evil. The majority of DM events are run with Good PCs in mind.
For this reason, we need Evil to happen in the world. We need foul acts commited, people to be hated, schmes to be stopped, ETC, ETC, ETC.
Having "Good" NPC organizations, Deities, and the like suddenly becoming more active can't be a good thing for the PCs, can it? I think that having a Deus Ex Machina which swoops down to stop Evil, or gets involved in the fighting of Evil on our end is bad. That's what the PCs are for- they're the Good that's active in the world.
Take an example of Good being active to stop something. Where's the event?
"PCs celebrate massacre in Paws being stopped by Elbereth!"
"PCs glad to hear that Vilyave stopped Naruth working with Midor!"
"PCs stunned as Aros appears to inform them that the Black Hand are servants of Menarok!"
Or, where Good is active as well as the PCs...
PC: I think we should....
NPC: No! You fool, it's a trap! Do this, instead.
What I'm trying to say is that having NPCs on the side of PCs, and their deities, seeming for the most part to be neutered and incompetant is one of the most important basisies for a world where the PCs can actually do things.
Without crime, there's no need for justice. Without Evil, no need for Paladins.
It's just a rambling and a thought, but I do think that keeping "Good" well and truely retarded, except for the PCs, makes the PCs that much more important and special in the world.
-Barnas |
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 10:31 AM |
For me, it is like in the vast majority of things we discuss, Balance is key.
This is where I, and several other members of the team, feel Vives has slipped too far to one side.
Yes, evil from a DM perspective should be prevalent. And I dont think anyone could argue that it isnt. We provide very strong opposition to the PCs. They get tormented, and put through hellish situations on a regular basis.
And this for me is all fantastic. Until it gets too much. PCs need to win some times. They need to feel they can accomplish something. They need to feel that the odds are not so heavily stacked against them that they can never do anything about it, and that it is utterly hopeless to try because the DMs will just squash them if they do.
And honestly, I think -at times- we have caused that feeling to become too prevalent. Of course it is just as important that PCs lose sometimes, or suffer. So long as there IS a balance.
And that balance is provided by having good exist in the world, and be available when it is needed. And that is all I for one am working towards, that the PCs dont feel utterly isolated and at the mercy of our whim. I dont want it to get to the extremest situation, where players see us as ego tripping maniacs that can never be "beaten", DMs should place player enjoyment before their own in my book. And that means we do have to lose too sometimes.
All imo, and with my TM technicolour banner proclaiming that extreme examples given above are not something I feel we suffer from, but something we might sometimes slide too far towards.
Cheers,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 10:44 AM |
In my opinion, there is too much against the PCs.
They have to have some victories sometimes, and some good in the world so they know they are not alone.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 10:52 AM |
IMO I agree with the above - when it is the players vs the world it feels very competitive and players start having to worry about mechanics and so on - it can feel like a game that needs to be 'won'.
However if you have a world that consists of both good and evil forces outside of the players then you vastly improve world immersion and give the feeling that vives is a living breathing world that still goes on even if the players aren't around. That way the players get to feel like they're part of the world, rather than trying to beat it all the time. |
For every complex problem there is a solution that's simple, neat and wrong. - Henry Louis Mencken |
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 11:04 AM |
And one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is neutral .
If you make things too much about Good vs Evil, then you miss out on all the great stuff that Neutrals can be doing and are doing.
I do think that balance is good. I don't think that it should always be "the DMs vs the players" or "the world vs the PCs". Sometimes it's very encouraging, as a player, to have an NPC support you, or working for the greater good alongside you. The players should not be the only Good force in the world - that would be unrealistic.
Edit: By unrealistic I mean "anti-immersive" . |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 11:08 AM |
Of course. I'm not advocating going that far... of course, PCs need help, support, NPCs who agree with them help them...
I'm just saying that we already have that.
It's a musing and a ramble. It's not really even coherent. Don't put too much stock in it, and say "Barnas thinks that PCs should be the only Good aligned creatures in the world!"... or anything... :P
-Barnas |
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 11:11 AM |
And that means we do have to lose too sometimes.
DMs don't ever loose! Because it's not players vs DMs. It's protagonists vs antagonists, PCs vs NPCs.
To me, we work with the players to create stories and RP. A part of that is playing the OpFor- the opposing forces- but, at the same time, we are not the opposing force. We're a neutral entity which exists outside of the whole affair, whose job is just to make things flow smoothly or happen at all.
Wow. That made no sense.
-Barnas |
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 11:20 AM |
Ok, to clarify what I mean by "lose".
As a DM, I just ran a plot that, from one outlook, I was destined to lose. I wanted the PCs to "win", and to wipe the night masks from existence utterly and completely.
Now I really made them sweat, panic and work to get to that goal. But the quest, unknown to them until near the very end, was always slanted to them "winning".
That is all I mean by lose.
In that quest, I got the feeling the further it went, the unhappier you were with the fact that the PCs were going to "win". Just a feeling mind, might be wrong.
But sometimes it really is important to lose in stories like that. One of my friends in LRP ran a year long campaign around a werewolf NPC. And he had to learn that lesson. The NPC always got away. Became a hated NPC, that people got very passionate about. And in the first 6 months there were some fantastic adventures, with people really doing their all to kill this creature. But then players began to lose interest and get pissed off. Cos they began to realise that the werewolf would never die, cos the DM liked running it too much. Had grown too attached. The campaign nearly died a death from this, but luckily my friend was someone who could see where he had gone wrong, and took the feedback on board. And the adventure where the werewolf did finally die was one of his best ever.
Hope that clarifies in my usual long winded manner,
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 11:32 AM |
I've no problem at all with the PCs winning. I think it's great.
On the other hand, I've never once seen a group of PCs actually loose here yet. Some of our PCs really do bring an attitude to events that "We'll win in the end, it doesn't matter what we try."
Which is why I'm cautious about, but not in any way opposed to, making the world "lighter" and more PC friendly. Some of them are cocky enough as it is.
On a side note, my low level event is just a short thing during which the PCs will almost certainly win. I'm not opposed to that at all.
I'm just... cautious... about going into things with the attitude of "Well, the PCs do have to win eventually."
I disagree with that sentiment. There's no point at all having a world where PCs always win. If they can't loose, why bother with combat? The PCs can just emote "*stabs*", and the critter dies. I don't like a world, either as a player or as a DM, where player victory is predetermined. I get very bored, very quickly with my characters always winning, never being in any real danger of loosing or dying, and just having a cakewalk. That goes for PCs and NPCs I control, too.
In the end, I think it's more fun to have a real close brush with defeat, to have to really struggle, to be tempted to give up, pack it in, and just go home... really honestly consider that you might loose than just be able to say "THE HEROS ARE COMING! We're going to win."
It makes eventual victory that much sweeter if you honestly know that you might have lost.
Hope that makes some sense.
-Barnas
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 11:48 AM |
On the other hand, I've never once seen a group of PCs actually loose here yet. Some of our PCs really do bring an attitude to events that "We'll win in the end, it doesn't matter what we try."
You're kidding, right?
I've seen the PC's lose a lot more often then win. And even their wins have been bloody pyhrric at best. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 11:49 AM |
I've no problem at all with the PCs winning. I think it's great.
On the other hand, I've never once seen a group of PCs actually loose here yet. Some of our PCs really do bring an attitude to events that "We'll win in the end, it doesn't matter what we try."
Which is why I'm cautious about, but not in any way opposed to, making the world "lighter" and more PC friendly. Some of them are cocky enough as it is.
On a side note, my low level event is just a short thing during which the PCs will almost certainly win. I'm not opposed to that at all.
I'm just... cautious... about going into things with the attitude of "Well, the PCs do have to win eventually."
I disagree with that sentiment. There's no point at all having a world where PCs always win. If they can't loose, why bother with combat? The PCs can just emote "*stabs*", and the critter dies. I don't like a world, either as a player or as a DM, where player victory is predetermined. I get very bored, very quickly with my characters always winning, never being in any real danger of loosing or dying, and just having a cakewalk. That goes for PCs and NPCs I control, too.
In the end, I think it's more fun to have a real close brush with defeat, to have to really struggle, to be tempted to give up, pack it in, and just go home... really honestly consider that you might loose than just be able to say "THE HEROS ARE COMING! We're going to win."
It makes eventual victory that much sweeter if you honestly know that you might have lost.
Hope that makes some sense.
-Barnas
I agree with vast majority of the above. Except that I think Vives has been too bleak and adversarial at times in the past. And that PCs are often left feeling that they have little real impact on some of our stories. That things just turn out the way we want them to.
It isnt a huge issue. But all the things you say about victories being better when hard won IS the way it has always been here. That wont change I hope.
Just that sometimes it is possible to make it too hard to win, and even when they do win it is at a significant cost, or left feeling they have won not through their own actions, but through plot power.
But as usual, I think we agree more than we disagree, just coming at the same scenario from different angles. Vives wont become care bear land! :0)
Sean |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 14 Feb 2006 02:43 PM |
On the other hand, I've never once seen a group of PCs actually loose here yet.
Umm I could name several. Nethar'u for one, where the PCs were working towards protecting the seals and all along we were going to open Nethar'u anyway and the PCs "lost"
And I agree with what others are saying, it's all about balance. Before Christmas and pretty much all through last year the PCs didn't "win" much at all. Now the balance is going the other way, but there are still plenty of plots that they are "losing" the Midor plotline being a prime example. |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 10 Jul 2013 05:08 PM |
| *bump* |
'The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.' - Richard Bach, Illusions. |
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Re: DMs: A little ramble
Posted: 11 Jul 2013 11:21 AM |
agreed.
Opened. |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
--
"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
--
<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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