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Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 04:04 PM |
Firstly, I'm going to make a copy of the post this thread regards, so it can be easily referenced:
The DMs have been talking a lot recently with each other and some players regarding this subject. It's something that we feel that players need to make sure that they do, but that there can be no hard and fast rules around enforcing. So what follows therefore are suggestions not rules.
All characters should RP the stats they have. This includes stats modified by items. What does this mean? Well at a very basic level it means that 10 is an average stat for an adventurer. So if you have anything below 10, then you should RP the disadvantage that stat is giving your character.
Some examples :
Someone with strength of 8 would find it impossible to RP carrying the body of a friend to safety.
Someone with an dexterity of 8 would be rather clumsy.
Someone with an intelligence of 8 may not be able to read and write at all.
Thoughts on Charisma :
Charisma would be a combination of Appearance, Creativity, Influence, and Psyche, all rolled up under the "Charisma" umbrella. So an 8 CHA would translate into not very attractive, not terribly creative, not very likeable or not very happy. Or a combination. Either way, not a very sociable or likeable person.
Some ideas on how high CHA affects the classes below and makes them more powerful :
Paladin powers - Influence, Psyche
Bard spells and powers - Creativity
Cleric abilities (eg Turn Undead) - Psyche
Sorcerer spells - Creativity
In that way, a bard with 20 CHA can still be ugly as sin, but you can explain the CHA as a high score in Creativity (affecting skills such as Music) or Influence (affecting skills such as Leadership).
Also, bear in mind that a negative modifier in a stat does not necessarily have to be a disadvantage. Mechanically, yes, it is. But from a roleplay standpoint it is something you can use fully to your advantage (and we encourage you to do so). It is these weaknesses, as well as your strengths, that define your character. It is what will make you stand out from the crowd.
Got a low CON? Maybe you're allergic to everything. A high INT wizard with a rock-bottom WIS? Sure, you can memorise spells and spout five-syllable words, but you're still trying to figure out which dictionary apparently has had the word "gullible" taken out of it. These little personality quirks are what transform you from "*yawn* another powerful mage who can take down a dragon by sneezing at it" or "oh look, yet another shadowdancer who only took levels in the class for Hide In Plain Sight" or "huzzah, just what we needed, a fighter that doubles as a portable armoury and has every weapon and armour in existence in their inventory... but no room leftover for a personality" into something that will make other players and DMs sit up and take notice.
Because at the end of the day, folks, Vives is a roleplay-oriented server. It is what it has always been and we have never claimed to be anything else. If all you care about is having a character that can slay stuff, if stats are all that matter to you... well, you're in the wrong placeWink.
So in summary, if you don't want to be below average... don't take negative stats. And please RP the stats that you have already. This does mean that sometimes you the person may know what's going on in a particular plot or quest, but that your PC wouldn't and you should RP as such.
From, The Vives DM Team
[This post has been locked so that no replies can be made, please feel free to open up a new post to discuss this topic if you have any thoughtsSmiley- Sol ]
[edit - quote marks put in to change the colour of the quoted post ]
Next, I'm going to make my own response to this and invite others to do so as well:
Firstly, it says it's something players need to make sure they do. What do you mean by this? It's something players have to do, but which can't be called a rule?
Next: How exactly does CHA influence creativity? This is taken straight from Dictionary.com (since Firefox is so kind as to provide a quick shortcut): 1.
1. A rare personal quality attributed to leaders who arouse fervent popular devotion and enthusiasm.
2. Personal magnetism or charm: a television news program famed for the charisma of its anchors.
2. Christianity. An extraordinary power, such as the ability to perform miracles, granted by the Holy Spirit.
I don't see where creativity comes from? And I definatly would take issue with this: Either way, not a very sociable or likeable person. A person that isn't terribly charismatic may be perfectly sociable, and may even be perfectly likeable. If a person, were, say, not very attractive (as per the not very attractive, not terribly creative, not very likeable or not very happy line), how would that make them not sociable or likeable?
Also, what do you do in the case of a well established character? Are vast personality changes going to be seen server-wide as people jump to following these not-rules? And as characters develop, who's to say that they're not becoming more wise, or intelligent or what have you? Certainly, you could say that you could pump the stat points into these, but what about when a character doesn't particularly level anyways? Development does NOT equal levels in my opinion.
Well, I guess that's all I have to say for now. So, reply at will and keep the flames to a minimum! |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 04:22 PM |
Firstly, it says it's something players need to make sure they do. What do you mean by this? It's something players have to do, but which can't be called a rule?
I suppose what it really comes down to is that DMs are more likely to give greater RP xp awards and attention to players that do RP their stats well and less to those who don't.
The whole creativity idea is a suggestionas to additional traits that can be accounted for by the charisma stat. i.e. Someone with a high CHA stat does not -have to- be extraordinarily good-looking, they -could- be someone who is very creative in terms of being very musically talented, or they -could- be someone who is very persuasive (like a Paladin could be).
In the case of an established character, you should decide what you think is best for your character. If you have always been RPing a very intelligent character when your INT is 8, then I would suggest buying & wearing rings of INT to increase the stat artificially to match the RP. Or you could alter your RP if you wish. It is really up to you. |
- Solitaire, Wizard
- Ilyana Fiirhaart, High Priestess of Naruth |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 04:29 PM |
I don't see where creativity comes from?
The DMs just said that Charisma forms a part of creativity.
And so, Charisma is a part of creativity.
It's that simple. It's how we interpret the stat and how it applies to classes.
That doesn't mean you're not allowed to disgaree- there can be no doubt that in its purist form, Charisma is just one's force of personality. However, in DnD, it means more than that. There's three stats to cover every aspect of the psyce in DnD. There's bound to be quite some level of crossover between them, and people are bound to disagree on details.
All that says is that we think, and for the sake of Vives, "Charisma" is a part of creativity.
-Barnas |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 04:34 PM |
When you consider the prime ability score of a sorcerer and bard is CHA, it makes much more sense to see how creativity comes out of it. Their magical power comes from themselves so the need to 'shape' it with their creativity. Also, bards are supposed to wring songs, stories music, come up with inspiration on the spot etc. How else can you explain where this comes from? Granted not every bard is a song writer, but that CHA score would be used in other places, like maybe a better personality or 'good looks'.
To be honest, I see CHA as a PGer detection device. My first though when I see an 8 CHA is someone who powerbuilds their characters because CHA has nothing to do with killing things. Now, it might only take a few seconds to change my opinion, but that is my initial thought as it is often very true.
Either way, not a very sociable or likeable person. A person that isn't terribly charismatic may be perfectly sociable, and may even be perfectly likeable. If a person, were, say, not very attractive (as per the not very attractive, not terribly creative, not very likeable or not very happy line), how would that make them not sociable or likeable?
Chalk this one up to 'human' nature. First impressions matter a lot and more attractive people (high CHA) will receive better first impressions from others (generally). This in turns makes these people (on average) more socable and likeable then others.
Basically, the whole thing is a generlized comment about ability scores. Don't play a super attractive, well liked, great mannered, great leader etc. character with 8 CHA. On Vives, ability scores should be tired to RP and not just used for the combat system. |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 04:47 PM |
Firstly, it says it's something players need to make sure they do. What do you mean by this? It's something players have to do, but which can't be called a rule?
I suppose what it really comes down to is that DMs are more likely to give greater RP xp awards and attention to players that do RP their stats well and less to those who don't.
I agree with RPing the stats, but things must be done with some time, established chars, were made under some orientations, this was never an issue in Vives and sudenly, DMs want to make it relevent. Ok we are up to it, but ey when "rules" or guidelines, change you have to think that new chars will have the chance to go with them 100%, but already made chars wont. The idea of using items to artificially increase the stats was the way I foudn to try to overcome this situation. But I dont think that what you said in this quote, is aceptable...
So saying that for people who wont follow this sugestion is the same to say its a rule, and if not followed theres a penalty for it. That doesnt make a great incentive for RP... Take special atention at this time to players who have established chars...
As to atention... being this a RP server, and the DMs usually just creat even more RP situations, increase RP, help in developing the char, when a players can do somethings, but with DM help will be doable, etc... I also think it is not a good idea, Vives, has almost non existant PvP, it has plots, and RP going on between players, but what I mean is that sometimes action is quite limited, and off course players should be the first to start it, but no one here will say that its not great and theres a DM around making something possible, that we players cant, due to flagrant limitations...
I guess all Im saying is yes, try to make this something players will follow, but be carefull, and lookout for players who have made up chars and sudenly the rules changed in the midle of the game... when they cant regress and change it... |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 04:58 PM |
Well, I rather like these suggestions on CHA. Since CHA has always seemed to be, for me anyway, this nebulous hard to define thing.
The Influence, appearance, and Psyche all seem to fit with a “modern” definition (and I’m assuming by Psyche you are referring to the supernatural/divine powers as per definition #3 of Tasras post)
And I could see how Creativity could/should fall under the influence of CHA, though to throw my 2 coppers in, might I make the suggestion that creativity would be a combination of CHA and INT.
Or would it make more sense to say that creativity is a product of INT and WIS, since people often say that creativity is an inspired thing, and that inspiration would come from a divine, or supernatural influence?
All right... really I guess creativity can come from different areas of giftedness depending on the individual... Combining INT, CHA, and WIS in different ways.
But definitely agree that CHA can have an influence on creativity. It just doesn’t have to. Though it would appear that way when you look at the Bard class, since you could make a Bard stupid as a rock, with no wisdom whatsoever, and they could still “perform.” And you can’t tell me that performing... singing... (for that is how a Bard manifests his spells, is it not?) doesn’t take creativity. |
"I'm not closed-minded, you're just WRONG." - Bucky Katt
My characters n portraits |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:09 PM |
I agree with RPing the stats, but things must be done with some time, established chars, were made under some orientations, this was never an issue in Vives and sudenly, DMs want to make it relevent. Ok we are up to it, but ey when "rules" or guidelines, change you have to think that new chars will have the chance to go with them 100%, but already made chars wont. The idea of using items to artificially increase the stats was the way I foudn to try to overcome this situation. But I dont think that what you said in this quote, is aceptable...
Never an issue? Maybe because you can't see other character sheets. I think with Vives being an RP server you should automatically relate that to stats having some meaning aside from combat stats.
We talk alot about RP XP, but the fact is that DMs dont give it, or wait, give it really really few times. And I am tired of this debate but it comes always to players, when somethings are said. When we first had this debate the DM team said the idea was to compensate players with RP XP, and by this way allow them to RP but still progress has a character in level terms. This is not working like it should then, Of course Im not saying DMs must, or DMs have to, or that any kind of chit chat is a reason to RP XP, the fact is that in Vives everyone RPs, ones better then others but here you cannot play and dont RP.... its a fact, but even with not that many players IG at same time, DMs hardly give any RP XP, and if it is only to be given when something extraordinary happens, then this sucks. I and most players have found too, that staying all day RPing, and dont go for a hunting time... will keep your char at same level for ages, and we like to play, RP have fun, but its not fun at all when our chars dont progress, and we all like to get the new abilities, and for a change kill a lion instead of a rat...
Getting a level when it makes sense, say your character just ran a PC event for a bunch of other characters, is far more rewarding then killing a rat for that last 2 EXP.
A player who plays for RP will progress slower then one that plays for personal power. You will get EXP as a RPer but it takes longer. You might get a character to level 20, but who cares if no one knows who they are. There are lots of character a lower levels who have some RP power associated with them.
DMs can't be everywhere at once. So, while there might be 20 people online, if they are all in different areas then it is going to be hard to reward people. However, if they start meeting up and RPing, it is far easier to RP in front of DMs and thus get rewarded. I personally try to watch the talk of the people in other areas and jump to them afterwards to reward them, but it can be hard to follow what people are saying with so many things coming up at once.
So saying that despite this... those few times will be cut, for people who wont follow this sugestion is the same to say its a rule, and if not followed theres a penalty for it. That doesnt make a great incentive for RP...
Your incentive to RP should be that you enjoy it and are playing on a RP server. Nothing else should be required.
I also think it is not a good idea, Vives, has almost non existant PvP, it has plots, and RP going on between players, but what I mean is that sometimes action is quite limited, and off course players should be the first to start it, but no one here will say that its not great and theres a DM around making something possible, that we players cant, due to flagrant limitations...
Vives is what you make it. I've seen lots of RP go off without a DM around that creates conflict between players. |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:14 PM |
| *edited* |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:21 PM |
I was expecting this answer, just want to say this is not my personal feeling but lots of players feel the same.
Heh...reminds me of my old days of DMing. There'd always be someone who'd say would "lots of people feel the same way (as I do)" but no one ever really rallied to these words.
*shrugs*
At least I had a moment of pale, prickly nostolga from this.
-Mykal |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:25 PM |
Smells like something to me, yes Mykal, I always spoke my thoughts, and never had great results, the thing is that yes not many people have the courage to say these, because they are afraid of the results...
I for one think I have nothing to fear for Im just helping vives, and adding points of view to a better conclusion. And so far the DMs and amins have made me think with all that happened they I can keep doing it, because they have answered always in a proper manner, and thats what we can call freedom of speech. So I ask the players to post their thoughts, even diferent from mine, hell its not my personal thing, just say something so we can eb all better. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:26 PM |
I agree with RPing the stats, but things must be done with some time, established chars, were made under some orientations, this was never an issue in Vives and sudenly, DMs want to make it relevent.
Then I guess my question is, why weren't those established characters RP'd to their stats in the first place? Why make a character with low CHA if you're going to RP them as sociable, a good leader, handsome and persuasive? Why make a character with low WIS if you want them to be intuitive?
Ok we are up to it, but ey when "rules" or guidelines, change you have to think that new chars will have the chance to go with them 100%, but already made chars wont.
Personally I don't see this as a rule, but a prerequisite of RP. Stats, skills, feats, all reflect who your character is. There's no point in taking them otherwise. If you don't want to RP your stats, don't, but don't expect DMs to reward you for not RPing to your stats, I guess, is my take on it - because it's not as good RP as it would be to RP your stats.
We talk alot about RP XP, but the fact is that DMs dont give it, or wait, give it really really few times.
I have to respectfully disagree here . I think Vives DMs are *way* more generous than the DMs on some PWs when it comes to RP XP. As TD said above, people who advance from RP XP are going to level slower than those who hit things all the time, but two points I would make here:
a) You can hit things and RP. RP isn't just sitting around talking, it's also adventuring and travelling.
b) As a wise Vives player once said, once you realise you're playing in an RP server, you'll quickly come to find that levels don't matter.
When we first had this debate the DM team said the idea was to compensate players with RP XP, and by this way allow them to RP but still progress has a character in level terms. This is not working like it should then
DMs *can't*, physically can't give you as much XP as you could earn from powergaming/camping areas, etc. Unless you want to pay them to DM Vives full-time, instead of doing their RL jobs (which I'm sure some of them wish were possible), you simply can't expect this of them - it's just not possible. But the compensation is there. Meanwhile, Vives has SO many other ways of earning XP than other PWs do. I think the XP handouts are more than fair.
but here you cannot play and dont RP
But, clearly, you can play without RPing your stats, which to me is an integral part of RP. So it is possible to RP but also focus on power, and I'd imagine that the DMs (whom I'm not speaking for, just giving my opinion as a player) would rather compensate those who RP every aspect of their character, including the build.
and if it is only to be given when something extraordinary happens, then this sucks.
I don't think that's the case. I've been given RP XP just for RPing a retreat from a monster-infested area once - didn't think anyone was even watching.
I and most players have found too, that staying all day RPing, and dont go for a hunting time... will keep your char at same level for ages
Why are RP and hunting mutually exclusive? Isn't D&D all about going on adventures? I think the most fun kind of RP for me is definitely going out on adventures, slaying monsters, and having fun RPing stories and tactics along the way. Waaay more fun than sitting around chatting, IMHO.
That doesnt make a great incentive for RP...
I think it's a great incentive for RP - it means that people who do RP their builds, and who do choose their character build for RP reasons, will be recognised for doing so, which is a brilliant development for Vives IMHO.
Anyway - why should people be bribed to RP? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Don't we RP for the fun of RP first and foremost? *scratches head* If levels and power were all we cared about, I don't think most of us would be on Vives.
Just my 2 pence, but in general I think this is a great move from the DMs. |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:28 PM |
I was expecting this answer, just want to say this is not my personal feeling but lots of players feel the same.
Also a player plays to have fun. Then it plays RPing, because this is a RP server *nods* Some may be more active some less, some may be better RPers some worse, some dont care about IG power some do, this is just diferent ways of RPing...
It will never give any kind of personal power... just the chance to see, and go to diferent places, and sometimes to be usefull. And also for being pleasant, and funny to play. Dieing constantly, and being the 5 level with no capacity to do a thing sucks, also being 25 and do all but with no RP, and no play involved sucks same way.
That was not the point I wanted to get.
I don't fully understand Players will always play to have fun, but it's assumed that because they've chosen Vives, their idea of fun is RP, because Vives is 100% an RP world. Everyones definitions of RP are different, so the DMs are clarifying that they do take into consideration character build. That's great - it means that players now have a better understanding of the kinds of things that DMs look at. Much better that than have a black box where you don't know. |
For every complex problem there is a solution that's simple, neat and wrong. - Henry Louis Mencken |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:31 PM |
Also a player plays to have fun. Then it plays RPing, because this is a RP server *nods* Some may be more active some less, some may be better RPers some worse, some dont care about IG power some do, this is just diferent ways of RPing...
*shrugs* I never really understood why people who just like to level play on slow leveling RP servers. If someone doesn't find it fun to RP, then honesly, there are lots of other server where people have a great time leveling.
I just don't think that playing for fun and then picking an RP server is the right way to go. It should be that you play for RP because it is fun for you. |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:37 PM |
I'd imagine that the DMs (whom I'm not speaking for, just giving my opinion as a player)
You might not be speaking for them, but we probably all will agree with everything you said ;) |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:45 PM |
I'd imagine that the DMs (whom I'm not speaking for, just giving my opinion as a player)
You might not be speaking for them, but we probably all will agree with everything you said ;)
:D Apart from Barnas, who likes to be perverse. *points to sig* |
Barnas: *coughs up a small gangster*
Barnas: ... I like pretty flowers.
Barnas: I'm not a transvestite! |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 05:57 PM |
I was expecting this answer, just want to say this is not my personal feeling but lots of players feel the same.
Also a player plays to have fun. Then it plays RPing, because this is a RP server *nods* Some may be more active some less, some may be better RPers some worse, some dont care about IG power some do, this is just diferent ways of RPing...
It will never give any kind of personal power... just the chance to see, and go to diferent places, and sometimes to be usefull. And also for being pleasant, and funny to play. Dieing constantly, and being the 5 level with no capacity to do a thing sucks, also being 25 and do all but with no RP, and no play involved sucks same way.
That was not the point I wanted to get.
I don't fully understandPlayers will always play to have fun, but it's assumed that because they've chosen Vives, their idea of fun is RP, because Vives is 100% an RP world. Everyones definitions of RP are different, so the DMs are clarifying that they do take into consideration character build. That's great - it means that players now have a better understanding of the kinds of things that DMs look at. Much better that than have a black box where you don't know.
*nods* My point was only one, its not fair, for players already established, WHO DO enjoy the RP and the DMs plots and atention, to be cast aside, for this now. just that.
And as to not saying the other players names, I dont say it because if they havent posted they must have a reason. Thats up to them, but I can though say these points are not mine alone just that. |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 06:03 PM |
*nods* My point was only one, its not fair, for players already established, WHO DO enjoy the RP and the DMs plots and atention, to be cast aside, for this now. just that.
And as to not saying the other players names, I dont say it because if they havent posted they must have a reason. Thats up to them, but I can though say these points are not mine alone just that.
I don't think anyone ever said established players would be cast aside. That's a rather severe leap, don't you think? To say that because of a suggestion that people play their stats that existing characters who may not do that would be ignore and/or given less priority?
I advise some relaxation, along with a cold beer. That's for myself, of course, and I fully intend to fufill my prescription when I get home tonight. In fact, I advise everyone to join me. Just shoot out a toast in a northerly direction, I'll make sure to keep an eye out for them.
Unless you're in Canada...then south will do.
-Mykal |
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 06:03 PM |
Well, I guess nobody feels the same way Ch'ang and I do on this issue. I suppose where our resistance is at is simply that as players, we've been playing characters that have literally been on this server for years.
When I first started in Vives, I was much younger than I am now. Hans Wilhelm is one of my earlier creations, and he has matured into what he is now over time, as I have. However, when I originally created him, he was NOT intended to be strong in some areas. Over time, he has learned to be. How does THAT get reflected in stats?
Yes, perhaps I should have anticipated him growing as he did when I made him, or forced him to remain static. But I didn't at the time. Am I going to start catching flak now after two+ years of having him? Are DMs going to say, "That was some good RP, but your character sheet isn't quite up to par, so I'm cutting you reward in half"? |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 06:14 PM |
(take the following as words from a Vives noob who has barely been here for 2 weeks, ignore at will and please don't get upset anyone)
I built my character intending to RP his stats. I've always thought that stats are a large part of the character both in combat and RP'ing. It's unfair to not act like that in my opinion.
A high STR and low CHA character can both kill monsters and be very attractive and sociable. There is nothing in the game engine preventing that char from speaking and emoting in a way that indicates attractiveness and social skills.
A high CHA and low STR character has a much harder time killing monsters (unless he's a sorcerer) than the first one. He can RP attractiveness and social skills though.
I think you see the point if you hadn't before I posted thisIf I for example played a 20 STR barbarian, I wouldn't be too happy if an elven rogue at the same level with a STR of 8 could bash things as good as me. Luckily the nwn engine prevents that. In return would be glad to play my barbarian as intellectually inferior or plain ugly, as INT and CHA would probably be his worst stats. The engine doesn't prevent me from playing him as a smart and beautiful one, but it would be wrong and quite rude to the other player.
On that note I took 14 WIS with my wizard. Pretty useless right? I did that just for RP reasons but I was pleasantly suprised when I found out high WIS gives a boost to alchemy skills. Having mechanical _and_ RP use of stats is the most fun :)
I can definitly see the problem for high level characters who has stats that doesn't reflect their RP. Since this annoucement appeared on the boards just now, maybe they could be allowed to change their stats a bit to reflect how they want to RP? It might be too much work, but if it's posssible I would think it's fair because what is written in the annoucement may be news to many players who really like to RP.
On that note I do care about XP, it's fun to gain a level and get some new fun abilities. It sucks to die and lose XP. But if I should die once or twice from having a less than optimal build, it's worth it. |
Nevron Tel
Malander
"If we are to survive, a new balance must be found. In normal times, evil would be fought by good. But in times like these, well, it should be fought by another kind of evil." - Chronicles of Riddick |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 06:14 PM |
| *edited* |
Why search around when the answer is within you...?
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 28 Oct 2005 07:30 PM |
I think some of us have deviated a bit from the topic, which is roleplaying your character stats.
As far as I'm concerned, there's no arguement about that. Players SHOULD roleplay their character's stats. Otherwise it's powergaming, pure and simple. A character shouldn't be able to lift a body if it's physically weak, or shouldn't be able to drink incredible amounts of alcohol if it has a low constitution, or have great insight if it has low wisdom, and so on. If you plan to put only 8 points in charisma, don't play your character as an attractive, well-mannered person.
However, I have to agree with Tasra on something, which is character development.
The NWN mechanics work such way that every four levels you gain the ability to increase a stat by one point, so the natural development of one's character is SLOW. Elephants give birth faster than a character becomes substantially stronger, more agile, etc.
However, this is an RP server, and in an RP server, characters can devlop much faster through RP. For example, the foolish fighter can learn lessons on common-sense from the wise priest - so if one day he would've charged into danger recklessly, after he met and learned from the priest, he might display good judgement on this matter.
Where does that development come into stats? It doesn't. Just because the foolish fighter began to display a slightly better judgement on his own, he doesn't magically receive two points to his wisdom score. I'm not suggesting that such a thing should be done. However, it is wrong for anyone to think less of that player's RP just according to his fighter's stats - because might be history and reason behind the current behavior of the character.
Now, before someone sharpens his claws, I'm not saying anyone does this or that wrong and I don't judge anyone. What I'm simply saying is that a character can develop faster than one point per four levels, and that this development isn't shown on stats, so judging purely by the latter is unfair towards the player who RPed his character coming to where it is.
Development in itself is also limited, however. The foolish fighter might have learned to display better judgement in battle, but he still cannot display the wisdom that is possessed by the wise priest, and unless he devotes himself to such, he never will (by natural means).
Anyway, this is just my million dollar worth of opinion ;) |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 29 Oct 2005 12:27 AM |
*nods* My point was only one, its not fair, for players already established, WHO DO enjoy the RP and the DMs plots and atention, to be cast aside, for this now. just that.
I was the one who originally brought this up in the DM forums. All I can say is that no character is going to be cast aside, unless you yourself decide to do it.
However, I will take into consideration the characters stats, established characters or not, when I decide on RP xp. Why? because that is what RP xp is for, rewarding characters who play in character.
A warrior with a low wisdom who constantly runs into battle not fully prepared gets kudos for me even though the character itself may suffer from the outcome. As to growing, that low wisdom warrior might learn about running off half cocked against that particular creature, but the next new one is something he might be able to generalize about and instead run off again.
On the other hand, watching that warrior become a wise, intelligent combat tactician decidely does not agree with me, but that is my opinion and I will award according to it.
A lowish xp world like vives gives you the chance to slow down, develop and appreciate your characters. Take advantage of it and you will find there is more fun to be had.
Oh, and by the way, RP does not necessarily mean sitting around and talking. There is nothing wrong with RP whilst on grand adventures of your own making. All you need is someone around to listen and talk back to you, so Party Up and Off You Go.
- Paul |
Purpose in life: finding better ways of allowing players to kill themselves. Repeatedly.
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"...Cause he mixes it with love
And makes the world taste good."
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<@James42> Lawful good isn't in your vocabulary, it's on your menu.
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 29 Oct 2005 03:31 AM |
| very interesting topic, but i think the players should speak out a little more on what they think as well. i have gotten rp xp for sitting down and crying after i woke up it he infirmary, but i have also not gotten rp xp when the rp sessions were pretty amazing ( the rescue of a player who died in fiirkrag cavern comes to mind because the party was not keen to the idea of going back in there to rp the carrying of the body out and the friction caused was quite real). im a midlevel character who gets an average of 5 xp per kill, and my combat xp reductions are brutally fast so rp xp is all i have to look forward to. i have my stats pretty well rounded though and i usually play it as i feel...sometimes happy, sometimes pissed. i would be pretty upset to learn i have to try to reimagine my character into something a DM thinks it should be or suffer more xp penalties. usuallly the player has a good idea of what they want to do...anyone remember the crazy old man who turned himself into a kobold after drinking mushroom wine and went around for days trying to kill guards and players alike with his poison dagger? that was FUN!!! thats what makes vives what it is...the quality players, and the quality DMs working in unison and trusting each other to play fair and fun. |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 29 Oct 2005 04:12 AM |
Well, I guess nobody feels the same way Ch'ang and I do on this issue. I suppose where our resistance is at is simply that as players, we've been playing characters that have literally been on this server for years.
When I first started in Vives, I was much younger than I am now. Hans Wilhelm is one of my earlier creations, and he has matured into what he is now over time, as I have. However, when I originally created him, he was NOT intended to be strong in some areas. Over time, he has learned to be. How does THAT get reflected in stats?
Yes, perhaps I should have anticipated him growing as he did when I made him, or forced him to remain static. But I didn't at the time. Am I going to start catching flak now after two+ years of having him? Are DMs going to say, "That was some good RP, but your character sheet isn't quite up to par, so I'm cutting you reward in half"?
Gotta say I agree with this. If a character is not to learn, to grow, then what are they? When one gets right down to it, what is more important, a bunch of numbers on a sheet the the character themself? |
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Re: Stat RP Response
Posted: 29 Oct 2005 05:11 AM |
Okay, I might be a bit bastardish about this, so my apologies if I am.
First of all. From the way I see it, the stat RP is not some sort of new rule or requirement for good RP rewards. The DMs give Roleplay XP according to their own judgement of good roleplay when they encounter it, as I understand, and this is [stat RP] is part of what they judge as good roleplay. This might've been the case for as long as Vives existed - DMs who saw characters playing by their stats rewarded them better. The fact that it was only now publically mentioned does not mean the idea was only now invented. The DM Team have noticed that it is a common opinion amongst them and some players, and decided they should state that they think all players should roleplay in that manner.
Better RP reaps better rewards. Worse RP reaps worse rewards. When a character is roleplayed by her stats, it is considered better RP, if it is not, it is considered worse RP.
Like True Thunder pointed out, when a player gives his fighter 8 points in CHA because it is unneeded for it to be powerful and doesn't roleplay it appropriately, that player detracts from the overall roleplay quality of his character - he will get less rewards due to that, because it is "worse RP".
Just like if you perform exceptional job at work and get a bonus on your salary for it, so you will get bonus XP if you perform exceptional roleplay when playing. Stat RP is considered part of that exceptional roleplay. If you don't perform anything exceptional - why should you be given any bonus for it?
I can see how players who have had a character for a long time might feel upset because when they made that character, they did not give such things thought, but even though they do now, their character remains the way it was - with less thought and depth. However, this is their problem, not the DMs'. If their character was less thought of at the time, it will accompany them for as long as they play it - life's tough like that. If you're really unhappy with it, make a new character, or find a way to "fix" your existing one without ruining its concept. This is up to the player responsible. He can also continue to play and enjoy the character as it is, if that's what he wants - it won't be as reward-worthy as other well-developed characters may be, but if roleplay is done for XP, then like True Thunder (I think he's the one that said it) said, there are servers out there where you can gain a lot of XP without having to do so much of that. Roleplay because you enjoy roleplaying. Yeah, everyone likes getting XP, leveling his char, and everyone hates losing what he's gained - but different people will give these things different priorities, it doesn't make it less important for them, but it does mean there are things that are considered more important.
If I wanted to get a better roleplay experience with a character that was not originally given so much dpeth and thought, and I really wanted to play THAT character, I'd think of ways to improve it without ruining the concept, instead of complaining about it. But if someone does it just so he can squeeze a few more XP points from it - what's the point?
As for character development. I think pdwalker made the matter clear in his last post.
It is logical for characters to develop to a degree. The foolish fighter can learn to display better reasoning when in combat - however he can't just become a tactical genius.
There are things that learning will not change - a person can't learn common-sense, for example. Hcan learn from others how to display judgement in specific cases, and act accordingly, but if that trait of him is lacking, he won't be able to display it naturally on his own. |
WickedArtist: I think he needs a proper elf.
WickedArtist: A christmas elf!
Tasra: Any sort of elf that actually smiles ;o
Gasp! Scandalous!!! |
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